From: Foxallan
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Date: 02-Oct-16 |
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Anyone have experience with carbon limb bows durability over the years? Going to purchase from a reputable bowyer but deciding on carbon vs glass? Owned & shot both. Prefer durability over performance & I want a bow that will last long as possible. Wouldn't mind the performance gain though!
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From: Orion
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Date: 02-Oct-16 |
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Carbon is tougher than glass, but because it's also stronger and lighter for an equal amount of mass, usually less of it is used in bow limbs compared to glass. Can be more susceptible to knicks in that regard.
I've been shooting A&H ACS carbon limbs for more than 10 years with no problems.
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From: Bowlim
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Date: 03-Oct-16 |
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You can't generalize, though Orion did a good job of it. But the problem is the execution. All kinds of toughness oriented things are made of carbon, arrows for instance, take one heck of a beating and a lot of people seem to prefer carbon for that. They have compounds they drive trucks over. Carbon fly rods originally used to be prone to breakage, though I still use some from the 70s. But the Ugly stick used carbon for hoop strength and was even more durable. And now we have tough all carbon limbs as with Uukha. But some maker who's only thought is to have the fastest bow test, or hasn't been at it much, might not get as much durability out of it.
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From: Bill C
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Date: 03-Oct-16 |
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I've had four sets of Win&Win limbs for about ten years. No problems. Am currently shooting Morrison limbs and love them...my wife, as well. I have had issues with Border limbs. Pretty happy with the Morrisons and am waiting on a second set.
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From: jk
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Date: 03-Oct-16 |
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My carbon-backed Sentman longbow (not the remarkable new model) has a few years on it...not a hint of an issue.
On the other hand, I'm sure a Sentman longbow without carbon would be great as well.
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From: Foxallan
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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Thanks for the replies. This is good to know!
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From: The Whittler
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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I have an A&H 3pc for about 4yr maybe a little more and no problems with the carbon on the limbs. Unless your rough with your bow like throwing it around and glass limbs wouldn't be much better.
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From: Viper
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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Fox -
You might want to do a little more research, and not go by individual's experience, which by definition is limited.
First, there's a difference between a limb with carbon faces and backs and one with a layered carbon foam core. The former should last as long as glass, because of the type of "carbon" used. Typically, they will make a faster, but possibly harsher shooting limb.
Next, with layered carbon form cores, durability may be more of an issue, but that too may or may not affect you. High end carbon foam limbs have a life expectancy of 5 to 10 years under heavy use. By heavy, I mean as used by Olympic level shooters, typically shooting hundreds of arrows per day/thousands per week. And while carbon core limbs do typically fail more often than carbon/wood core, or wood core limbs, we're not usually talking about a catastrophic failure such as a de-lamination, but what's called a de-stabilization. That means the limbs won't group as well as they did when new. However, the odds are very good that most shooters won't be able to tell the difference.
Most serious Olympic shooters are opting against pure carbon foam layered limbs these days, finding that comparable models with just a sliver of wood gives a better feel to the shot and possibly a greater effective life span.
YMMV.
Viper out.
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From: Bill C
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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Of all the limbs I have tried I would suggest that were it not for Bob Morrison I would ubfoubedly be shooting one of Win&Win's high end limbs. Never had a problem with them and they are very stable and quiet.
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From: jk
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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Alan, so far the only reference to carbon backed non-target and not-target-like (ie hunting) bows has been mine.
You be distracted by some of the chatter about ILF and other take-down bows, unless that's what you're looking for.
My Sentman's not the only traditional-type bow with carbon backing,. I don't think there's universal enthusiasm for the wonderfulness of carbon...bamboo core may be more significant (as in my Carroll longbow) .
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From: JRW
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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Carbon/foam limbs have been the standard in recurve target archery for a long time now (although wood core is gaining a little popularity again). Those folks put their limbs through far more abuse than traditional bowhunters, so it's a non issue for us.
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From: Sixby
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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From my own experience (15 years building carbon bows) dependability depends on how much the bowyer knows, what type of carbon is used and the placement and proportion of carbon used, the compatability of core and how it stands up to carbon ect. As an example you can place the carbon deep in the core and it will possibly improve horizontal stability but be only negligible in speed or feel of performance. The design and shape of the limb and type of limb makes a difference. Soooooooo there are many variables and I have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours and consultation with other carbon building bowyers over the years in order to learn how to use it properly. On top of this not all carbon is equal in layup or quality. So one must develop a layup and a supplier that provides high quality carbon. I did not know enough about carbon and its use for quite a few years before I knew enough to collaborate with another bowyer and come up with the carbon layups , different for back and core to build a really good limb. That's my experience with it. Now my advice is to stick with a bowyer that has good success and has built enough carbon bows that have stayed together and added to the performance of the bow enough to warrant the extra cost. One other thing , some limb designs are so good that they will perform so close to the same limb with glass that there is not really any sense in paying extra for the carbon. An example of this would be to compare the performance of a well designed recurve to a really well designed D and R longbow. The addition of carbon to the longbow will add more performance to it than the addition of carbon to the recurve will. Both will add but speed wise the longbow will benefit more. Conversely the recurve will benefit more torsionally wise than the longbow will. That again will depend on the bowyer using the righ carbon layups and knowing how to specifically place it and glue it up. God bless, Steve
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From: jk
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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JRW..re: "us" Was Alan asking about target bows? Do target archers "abuse" their bows?
Please don't take offense, but Alan asked about longevity.
I suppose it's possible to infer that carbon/foam, abused for 5 years, is equivalent to hunting-oriented bows with wood/glass limbs, but that seems odd to me. I've certainly read about more failures with ILF bows than with more traditional bows, and I notice that target/ILF shooters change limbs frequently...for some reason.
Alan, please clarify: what kind of shooting do you do?
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From: Bowlim
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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The Oly stuff is different from hunting in that with a lot of it moved back to 70m they don't need the old top gear they had for 90m. If you are talking carbon presumably performance is part of it and on live game is never too much, all equal.
In Oly they don't abuse the bows, but shooting 10 gr arrows is easier.
One thing I notice about girlie bows is I have to be careful of them. Riser weight to limb noodle is such that twist and tiler can be affected by things that never affected my man bows. Just a learning curve thing. No permanent damage.
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From: JRW
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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Target bow, hunting bow? Hmmmmmmmm.....
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From: JRW
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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Everyone knows you can't hunt with a "target bow." :)
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From: Bowlim
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Date: 04-Oct-16 |
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Should be better all around if you can get your weight and don't mind the length which is about = to a Hill.
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From: skookum bow
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Date: 05-Oct-16 |
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Hi,
This depends on the thickness of your wallet.
Uukha makes 100% carbon limbs (monolithic carbon)
They are a dream in smoothness and I have not yet heared any complaints from other owners.
I only have the "cheap" version with 25% carbon and they are over 5 years old and draw as sweet as day one.
I can highly recommend their products - I have no stakes in the company or in sales what so ever.
Lancaster Archery sells them in the USA - maybe you can take your riser there and test shoot a set.
I would highly advise you to do just that, so you can experience it for yourself. In the end, everything else is just someone else`s opinion.
shoot straight - skookum bow
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From: Foxallan
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Date: 05-Oct-16 |
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Thanks again all for the detailed responses and experiences. I enjoy using hunting bows for target, that's what this one will be used for. Targets, 3D, stumping. The bowyer has an excellent reputation for many years so I'm sure his carbon selections & design skills are top notch.
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From: nineworlds9
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Date: 05-Oct-16 |
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You will be good to go. Don't worry and enjoy your bow. Use a string made from Fury, Rhino, or BCY-X to get the most from your new bow.
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From: jk
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Date: 05-Oct-16 |
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:-) I guess nobody actually cared about Alan's question.
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From: larryhatfield
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Date: 06-Oct-16 |
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Since almost all carbon on recurves is a balanced woven, the only thing that normally fails is ply separation from poor wet out during layup. If the woven is on the outside of the lam stack you could possibly get a flaw, but there have been big strides made in the process's in the past few years so i wouldn't worry about it.
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From: jk
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Date: 06-Oct-16 |
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Larry, I'm no a bowyer, for sure...
...but do you mean a carbon layer on the top of a lam stack (as in my older Sentman ASL) is more tricky for a bowyer than a layer in the middle of a lam stack?
Does a one-man shop have one-man craftsmanship demands while a bigger shop has factory-like challenges... does that make sense?
I have zero issues over ten + years with my carbon Sentman...don't recall anybody complaining on LW about other conventional bows with carbon.
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From: Moosejawgary
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Date: 17-Oct-16 |
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jk- For those concerned I used carbon under black glass off and on for several years back at least 10 to 15 years ago. Before I used carbon in my limb I personally phoned and contacted the manufacturer of the carbon lam. I was told to use the carbon under the back glass directly. I was told that carbon was more efficient with wide thin limbs. My bows in those years and still today are approximately 1 1/8 to 1 1/4" wide at the fade outs and have a deep core. I did not stay with carbon because it was rather expensive and showed very little if any increase in performance with my long working limb deep cored bow design. The biggest advantage to the carbon limb to me was it reduced the limb core considerably to achieve the pull weight. Thus apples to apples the bow had less hand jar. I have a personal bow today that I made back in January of 2002. The bow is 72#@28", 68" in length, black glass on back with .030 carbon under the back glass. The bow is my Sentman Classic model. And it has performed outstandingly over the years. It has been shot a lot over the years. And still today remains one of my favorite bows. Moosejaw Gary
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From: jk
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Date: 17-Oct-16 |
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Moosejaw Gary...thanks for your bow's family history.
Mine is #68120, 60#/28, with the interesting length of 66.5" :-) I don't notice significant "hand jar."
Will be shooting it with carbon arrows for the first time this week.
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From: Moosejawgary
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Date: 18-Oct-16 |
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jk- Food for thought. My bow designs over the years are generally deep cored bow limbs. If one uses too light of arrow the bow will be shoot excessively noisy and could possibly do damage to the bow with the same effect as dry firing the bow. Use an arrow heavy enough to absorb the energy of the bow limb. Moosejaw Gary
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From: jk
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Date: 18-Oct-16 |
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Gary, good. I'll reserve the carbons for my 3D bow. Your bow deserves my chundoos.
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