Mark do you mean a straight limbed asl or one that resembles a hill when strung?

The Craig Ekin bows pound for pound are as quick as any I've shot.

My 7 Lakes has passed cars at 85 on I-80. Counted coup on a muskrats head in the marsh, little critter never saw it coming. Once, it beat a compound for fastest three arrows in the target bag at ten yards. Yep, that bow is fast. Real fast!

Northern Mist Classic by Steve Turay, with the core wood he suggests. Another possibility is the Bullwhip from Whippenstick, not sure if he is offering these yet.

I have owned quite a few and for me it is JD BERRY Longbows.

I know it difficult to believe, but bows of similar design will all be within a few fps, and when I say "few" I'm talking 10fps. Nothing that you or anyone else could tell the difference without a Chronograph. Bob

So far as strung, IMHO nothing compares to a good r/d bow. My Bamabow Royal Hunter was scary fast compared to my straight bows. Just guessing most quality straight limbed lb''s will shoot within 5-8 fps of the other at same weight & draw.

Read again what aromakr said. If the same design, length and weight, there isn't a hill of beans difference among them.

3x what Bob and Orion said. Lots of GREAT ASL bowyers out there. Jet, Northern Mist, Howard Hill and all the ones mentioned above.

"there isn't a hill of beans difference"

Very punny!

And I agree, given same design, eg back set, flat or string follow, they are going to be right alongside each other.

When speed is a consideration I shoot something else

DDave

Sentman carbon, slight r/d.

Not saying they're slow but last time I shot one I went to pull my arrows and had to duck my last arrow as it finally got to the target. ;D

"Better to lose a few feet per second and hit what you're aiming at, then to wiz by a miss" - Bob Swinehart

Ventura, used is better than new because there's a high possibility that somebody loved it before you do. You can generalize that to other important decisions.

"Better to lose a few feet per second and hit what you're aiming at, then to wiz by a miss" - Bob Swinehart

Only problem with that for me is I shoot them worse then any other bow I have owned. I thought it was just longbows but I bought a reflex longbow and shoot it almost as well as the heavier recurves. I've only owned 3 different ones, all customs, but I shot them all badly. So the faster recurves are much more accurate for me.

It's a Hill, does it matter?

Ventura,

R/D Longbow and Hills are NOT the same 'package'. Try some Hills...you might end up hating them. I was immediately hooked.

I would sort of disagree about arrow speeds. Sort of meaning, I have had a couple that were choreographed faster than most, more than ten fps faster. I was told by one of the Hill people that every so often they get a yew that comes out really fast. I have one. When we were testing bows with a high chronograph at and archery shop, one fellow tested his Hill at 168 with his cedar arrows on average. I got an average of 176 with the same bow and the same arrows with a slightly shorter draw. The difference was a dead bow arm and release hand versus an active bow arm and release hand. Watch Hill or Schulz shoot, you will see that the energy put into the bow goes both ways. When my buddy corrected this, his draw was a half inch shorter max, and he also got the bow to shoot faster. Some can disagree and that's fine, to get the most benefits from shooting a Hill style bow, shoot them like Hill would, it is more about fluid versatility than power. About mild R/Ds, I have seen some that were slower than my quicker Hill style bows. I have also seen a couple that had more hand shock than most Hill style bows. I have never seen one that could not be shot just like a Hill style bow, shooting them the way Hill would shoot them. I would say that an average Robertson will shoot as fast as the fastest Hill style bows, and one can get by with one that is also a couple of inches shorter and get about the same forgiveness and stability with Hill style form.

Bamboo, carbon.

The other night I was shooting my HH longbow at our outdoor range next to a guy who was shooting a compound.On some of the longer targets he made a comment about speed and arrow drop with my Hill.I replied that if I was after speed and flat trajectory that I'd go with a crossbow or rifle .That ended the conservation.

Dave

Hill style bows like wood arrows. Perhaps it is the fact that they can bend easier around the bow. A 50 pound Hill style bow will put a cedar arrow with either a Hill, a Grizzly or a Hunter's Head through any deer in Iowa, actually, I think a 40 pounder might as well. Cedars quite often come unless than ten grains propound and that is fine, they will fly faster then. The difference in flight between a quicker Hill to an average Hill at 30 yards is not enough to worry about. With practice you will be making all of the necessary minor corrections any way. The biggest difference from one bow to another is the grip. I like straight grips or grips that I can naturally heal with very little squeeze. For that the grip has to be the right size for my hand. If the grip does not match the shooters hand the whole process goes to crap.

Sorry for the misspelling. The ceiling fan screws with my microphone.

The plus with ASLs is that they lose speed at a lesser rate as arrow weight increases. I shoot mine at 14 to 15 GPP and don't see much difference in speed and trajectory compared to a 10 to 11GPP.

I have had three from Howard Hill Archery, one bamboo Tembo and two of yew, the Redman model. They had different specs but both of the yew ones surprised me with their performance, with fairly heavy arrows. I think the yew might be fastest and bamboo second.

Both are light in mass weight and I think this matters in 70 inch bows; in shorter ones not much. In fairly short bows I think dense woods like osage and maple might be just as good, maybe better. My thought is that mass matters more at the end of long limbs.

Note that not everybody who has made a Hill style bow is as skilled as the top bowyers. - lbg

I had some HH bows. A Wesley and redman. Both the same length. The Wesley was 5# lighter and shoot the same arrow thru both and they where the same speed

Over the years there has been many experienced bowyers that have made the Hill style bow. Jim Darling was making the bows back in the 50's up into the 60's. John Shulz made bows for Howard Hill archery company for many years. And also Ted Kramer. Just to name a few. I knew John Schulz and his family personally and have shot many of the bows that he made. His bows were basically narrow and deep at the core. And they were very light and small at the tips. He believed in using bamboo core for the ultimate bow.

In Roseburg, OR, where I shot a lot of Howard Hill bows in those days a 75# bow 68 " length would shoot a Microflygt #11 or 12 about 214 paces. This is pretty good in the real world because the Microflygt would weight in at just over 600 grains. John told me that Howard's rule was that a hunting bow should shoot at least 170 fps. This can easily be done today with carbon arrows but if one was shooting heavy arrows like in the past you would see a lot of bows out there that would not shoot over 180 fps.

Over the years I have heard a lot of wind about fast bows that would shoot 190 or 200 fps. The facts are that when tested they would not shoot over 180 fps. Howard's basic rule was: You can put back set in the bow but don't go over 1 1/2". In my experience the few times I experiemented and went over the 1 1/2" backset I ended up with a bow that had excessive kick in the hand and was much noisier and was not that much faster.

Many years ago I heard that Jerry Hill was making some longbows and they had 3" of backset. I have never shot a Jerry Hill bow.

I made the Howard Hill classic bow from the information I got first hand from the Hill clan and especially from John Schulz. The bow was not designed as a top of the line fast bow. The bow was designed to cast a heavy arrow with a reasonable trajectory of the arrow, quiet and extremely durable and accurate under adverse conditions. The Original Moosejaw, Gary Sentman

Dean, I dn't sea ani mispelllld wurds.

My Craig Akin bow was not the fastest kid on the block, but it sure put the heaviest wooden arrows down range consistently better than any other bow I've seen. Compared to the other folks arrows when they hit, they made the normal tick sound when they hit, mine sounded like I hit someone up the side of the head with a baseball bat.......wing

I need to add something also, I went to a local county operated range and the folks were shooting their arrows and I watched for a while, then someone came over and asked what bow I had and I told them a HH longbow, I got a few raised eyebrows and a couple of snickers, they asked me to join them, which I did.

I shot five arrows into the same target they were shooting, when I went to remove my arrows, I couldn't, they obviously penetrated further back than what their bows were capable of doing.

I had to get help from two other people to hold onto the target while I pulled and twisted with both my hands to remove the arrows. Needless to say no one snickered or raised their eyebrows after that. I didn't shoot anymore...........wing

You might call David Wallace and ask him because he seems to propel a wooden arrow from his homemade Howard Hill style longbow with amazing accuracy while others miss a lot while shooting faster bows.

When a longbow is comfortable to hold, shoots sweet and puts the arrows right where you want them, minor speed differences no longer matter. When you have one that is a struggle to hold, thuds your knuckles and rattles your joints, and has to have super heavy arrows to get it to settle down, you have a longbow that I would retiller if it were mine. A good longbow is tolerable to shoot with 8 grains per pound. I believe that it is a combination of limb inefficiency plus limb weight as in mass hysteresis, that makes them not speed up as much with light arrows and not slow down as much with heavy arrows. The arrow weight itself is at a lower percentage to the limb weight and the available energy. That is also why some longbows do not have as much speed variations with draw length variations. However, the more efficient the longbow the more arrow weight and draw length will affect the performance, but some of the more efficient longbows also have less handshock and behave more like a good R/D. I have seen fast flight strings change the personality of some longbows a lot and other times they do not make so much difference. On the bows that they do not make much difference, those tend to be the more efficient ones as well.

Dan Toelke reworked the Super D just a touch and it is a quick ASL, very user friendly. Thick narrow core. I seriously doubt there is a faster ASL out there, not that speed matters really. 10 fps will only get your arrow two hundredths of a second quicker to the 20 yard target. It's quiet too. That matters most.

"When a longbow is comfortable to hold, shoots sweet and puts the arrows right where you want them, minor speed differences no longer matter."

WINNER!!

Ditto.

Love my 7 lakes "Longnight" reflex/deflex longbow, I've shot more expensive bows but non better than the 7 lakes. Smooth to my 31" draw, fast, and pointable.

10 fps is a lot that would be huge. Not a bow that shot that much faster, but any range of bows that all averaged anywhere near that vs. others, would be huge. That goes for pretty much any kind of bow. If a maker can get that much more out of simply how he does stuff, you need to pay attention if you want that. I think that would be way more than ACS did.

I have no doubt I could tell a 190 vs a 180 fps bow, if they were out there. I can sure tell the difference if I change up my arrows to that degree.

I have no idea whose bows are faster.

Savanahs have a great reputation, but I couldn't call them the best of both worlds. I think the can be that vs a recurve. If you can get a bow that has some of the advantages of a longbow, but speed like the faster recurves, that has some merit, and that is pretty much how I see the better hybrids. But I don't think there are bows like that that pick up what a Hill will do. It is a different objective. Or set of objectives.

So what are the Hill objective ATMO?

1) connects you to English longbow world, isn't the same, but it has a link in form and motive of creation.

2) Connects you to the period of Archery that Howard dominated, just as some people connect to Bear, etc...

3) Connects you to Hill shoots, and clubs

(personally I don't much care about the above, as much as anything because I don't live near any other shooters)

4) Pretty much the common comparable low end of archery gear that uses glass and wood (or the earlier bows different materials). There are more primitive/challenge options, but this is the baseline in most respects. If a guy does an all primitive hunt, he may be a better craftsman for making all his gear, but there will not necessarily be a tactical difference, it is possible to make home made all wood gear that is pretty much as good performance wise.

5) Hill was a "good shot" He had a totally integrated system of shooting, that is technically correct, as much as say FITA. Every part of the system is integrated to a degree no other system is (though not everyone seems to be able to do it). And if you learn the principles (for what it is worth), you can move to compound spots or IBO, FITA, whatever, with reasonable ease.

6) Hill's technically correct system is based around the needs of hunting.

7) His system emphasizes stability, or forgiveness. But is also appropriate to martial or dangerous game type shooting, moving targets, etc... Which is unusual to say the least.

I've taken a full circle.....

When I started in the 70's I thought nothing of speed....

Somewhere in the 90's I started thinking about it....

Chrono'd a few around the time when Y2K was a big concern...

these days if I find my arrow laying on the far side of where I just shot covered in good blood from tip to nock.....that's all I need.

any hunting weight Hill style longbow of hunting weight, and razor sharp broadhead will do that.

I imagine there are slight differences in bow material,but not much.

Seems like most will shoot poundage plus 110 or 115...50# bow...160-165fps... 70#....180fps

Only people who don't have speed will tell you it doesn't matter ;) People shoot the heaviest arrows they can, worry about high foc, and super tune their arrows, all for penetration. Well guys, penetration is the biggest advantage speed gives you. 10 fps can mean the difference between enough penetration or not. I been blessed with a long draw length so speed is something I get outa pretty much every bow. Not super speed but certainly over 190. I hunt large animals so if a bow shoots under 190 for me it goes down the road, which doesn't happen often at 32" draw.

I've had a couple of HH style longbows.They were ok shooters, not particularly fast. Last year I aquired a 1975 HH Big Five. It seems much faster, but I haven't chrono'd it. It's 70#@ 28". What I like the most about it is it's very predictable, I.e, the arrow usually goes exactly where I want it to, with no extra effort on my part. Mine has some backset, I'd like to try a string follow version.

My backset HH Craig Ekin bow did the job, I don't care how fast it was, that means nothing to me, it was the most comfortable, easiest to shoot accurately consistently and would put a heavy wood arrow down range through any animal that was unlucky enough to be in range.

In other words, out of all this super re-curve, ILF, selfbows, carbon bows or what ever, the Howard Hill style bow is probably the best all around bow that you could have. I didn't have to worry if I was a little off on my grip or had a bad release or shot an arrow that wasn't tuned for that bow, it still put the arrow on the target....(bamboo and yew) what mine was made from.

I'm sure I will get a lot of gruff from that statement, but if you never shot one then you have no idea, they are just super all around great bows that anyone can shoot very accurately, in other words easy to shoot.......wing

ShadeMT said it

these days if I find my arrow laying on the far side of where I just shot covered in good blood from tip to nock.....that's all I need.

any hunting weight Hill style longbow of hunting weight, and razor sharp broadhead will do that.

What's the difference between "string-follow" and "backset" ?

Is "backset" similar to forward grip" ? Is "string-follow" a small step along the way to recurve?

String follow is where the limbs (un-strung) bend slightly toward the string I.e. string follow. back set is where the limbs from the fadeouts bend away from the string. Bob

I have made a few "Hill-style" bows over the years. Here is a pic of some pre-stressed cores (maple and bias carbon). I developed this process in 1983. These cores really makes a bow perform.

There are a lot of other choices for a mild deflex/reflex longbow other than the Savannah...just in the Damon Howatt/Martin lines I have two such bows, a Vision and a Venom...I think both are better designed bows than the Savannah...Larry Hatfield has said his best longbow designs are the 66 inch ones

DDave

I want a string follow with prestressed core lams.

dean, have a felling I'm stepping into your sense of humor.But here goes anyway: String follow has a flat force draw curve. Prestressed core lams have a fat force draw curve. SF bows are very pleasing to draw and shoot. Have a feelin' moleman1 and more than few others can get poetic about how pleasing these bows are to shoot. McBroom and Steve Turray and JD Berry SF bows give up little in cast over backset. If you want the best of both flavors, it'll have prestressed cores/ limbs trapped to the belly. The only ones I know of are made by Skookum. I have a feeling the reason no one makes them this way anymore is because it takes longer than making two bows.

Ventura66, Lots of good input on this thread. dean nailed it when he talked about grip. I have found the grip to be key to success and satisfaction with any longbow. ASLs are designed to shoot with pressure on the palm. Some people shoot an ASL a few times and get turned off. Once you connect with the grip right, It's as though the bow turns on. Yes, and points better and shoots faster.

I know, I was being sarcastic about always wanting the compromise that would ensure the best of all combinations. Those Skookims are great bows, as are many of the string follow bows. Mark posted a question about speed. I acknowledge that speeds vary, but also that there is more to the total equation and in in the end other things like feel and confidence out weigh the speed differences. I shot 25 small game animals last year with a bow that may or may not be 'fast', don't know. However, I am not sure that faster bows are not just as accurate with Hill form as Hills. Much like when I missed a large buck the first day I went deer hunting with an 89 pound longbow, at first, I was over bowed with that bow. That day, the fellow with the puny 45 pound Bear Kodiak was the better archer, I helped him field dress and drag out his trophy. Depending on one's release or other shooting traits will dictate which bow will work better for that person. I still maintain the hardest part of shooting game is shot timing. The Hill shooting style works best for me when hunting. It can be used with other bows, but the grip will change aspects of the bow hand and the bow arm more than the final limb shape which will affect the rest of the shot timing to a degree. Although a straight gripped bow can be shot with a straighter target like form, the advantages of shot timing and speed come from the basic Hill form and a bow that will allow it. Personally, if I were to still be hunting with my target form and taking only straight up standing hunting shots, I would prefer a Bear takedown or a Black Widow, but my favorite game is rabbits, pheasants and doves, where many times shots must be pretty fast and the reaction time to the situation is a crucial for getting a shot off.

JK, here is a Kramer Big 5 I just got in a trade. It has a decent amount of backset...

JK, here is a Kramer Big 5 I just got in a trade. It has a decent amount of backset...

Is that your hunting car as well? My wife and I each have an Outback, they take all of the fun and challenge out of winter driving. Many of the Kramer models benefit from a bowstring from Chad, they often have a really nice rounded tiller to them.

The speed thing--- I shot with a friend one day. He had a Hoyt compound.It was the second to their top bow. A marvel of high tech. engineering. 60#. One of the fastest on the market. We were shooting into horizontally stacked dense foam. I shot a 66" 54# longbow (slight d/r trapped to the back.) Light for bow weight 450 grn arrows. My arrows were penetrating 3" deeper than his state of the art high FOC arrows. My bow is fast by stick bow standards, faster than most recurves. But it's at least 100' per second slower than his. He had been sucked into the speed mantra. It was fun seeing him fall off his soap box and deflate. I felt a little bad about it; so, I told him how I thaught he had the perfect set up for himself and he does. That bow and he are one. Then I pointed out his groups were smaller than mine. But, my groups had twice as many arrows and I still had to wait for him to finish. His bow is faster. Mine is faster on target. And hits harder. When I mentioned ariel targets, he put his bow away, gave me a beer and changed the subject.

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