It doesn't take a lot of savy to know if a arrow is flying straight. Some of my bows will shoot a lot of different spined arrows and some of my bows won't. I don't give advice on here because I'm not sure what I'm doing. I've only been shooting for 50 plus years and still haven't figured it out.lol

points well taken, its the nature of the beast here,, lots of experts,, the new guys have to wade through it,, just like we did,, definitely something to think about,, I have experts tell me my set is wrong,, but I can see the arrow fly thank goodness,, there is always room for improvement for sure,, and as my form has become better,, I can shoot a wider range of spine from my bows,, good point,,

That's why I recomend a dynamic spine calculator. Numbers don't lie too bad if you have experience with archery and are switching from compound to trad. If they are completely new to archery, then the challenge starts in my opinion.

Relating to spine, coming off compound I had no clue what spine really meant until I started shooting trad. As I bought more bows I came to realize spine is a mechanism to balance the flex of the arrow with all the things that manipulate spine.

But on the too stiff/too weak argument, I'm on the fence with that. I've had people tell me that a 660 total grain 2117 arrow for a 66# recurve was stiff even though the spine calculator said it would work just as equally to a 2018 setup I was looking at. In reality if all the factors stay the same other than spine and point weight of an arrow, buying higher spined arrows is just a way to add more weight to an arrow in my mind because you have to increase the point weight as well.

I agree, I do not really even the threads about arrow/spine/tuning because there are so many variables that no one but the archer himself can know. Not to mention there are so many so-called experts that chime in and the only conclusion that these threads come to is that no one is 100% correct and no one can agree to a solution. The only certainty is that tuning is trial and error, and that's the best way to learn in my humble opinion

Acutally scratch that the 2117 arrow setup was close to 590. Writer's block, I wanted 9 gr per #. Don't know where 660 came from

I agree. I started shooting a few years ago and read all over the internet about arrows and spine. The first set I had were too stiff, but honestly when I was still getting my form down I had more to worry about than if my arrows would shoot perfect. Those arrows worked just fine for shooting targets at close range and I had no problem replacing g them since I ended up breaking most of them. I now have some arrows that shoot a lot better and am more confident.

Honestly I was overloaded with info from the internet and I think what would have been more helpful is someone actually shooting with me and telling me what works for them to get started. So when you see a new shooter the best thing you can do is to go shoot with them! Arrow conversations are bound to pop up.

The single most important thing we can tell a new shooter is to not get all that excited about arrow tune until they have consistent repeatable form...I started shooting seriously in 2009 and I just shot whatever I had handy for over a year...only when I felt I had a level of consistency allowing me to hunt ethically did I begin to think about correct spine...I have shot some great groups with 2317 arrows that I could see flying almost sideways going downrange but I would never consider using those arrows for anything other than form practice with that sort of flight

DDave

When I was learning in Februaary 2011, I was so misled by incorrect info, it took me 2 1/2 years before I filtered out the BS. I had to break away from the 3d shoots and from the crowds. Masters of the Barebow III is what finally got me on the right track.

As a fairly new shooter, it is fresh in my mind, what went wrong.

1) A tremendous amount of info fed me was based on Nostalgia

2) I have identified (2 ) different schools of thought :

a) Olympic/ upright style shooting

b) Nostalgic cant, off the shelf, rather quik draw & release style shooting.

These two were being mixed up badly. JUST BECAUSE somebody Knows how to shoot, Does NOT mean they know how to teach.

I agree completely SM. I'm all for tuning and am not satisfied until my own gear groups bare shafts, fletched shafts with field points, and broadheads in the same spot out well past the often recommended 20 yards. I'm not a world class shooter but have been doing this long enough to at least be relatively accurate and consistent in my form and release. That just isn't going to be possible for a new shooter and they are better off picking something off a chart or Stu Miller's calculator (preferable in my opinion) and practicing.

Again, in my opinion until a new shooter develops some consistency there's really no point in tuning, it will at best be frustrating for them. There's also no "right" arrow for someone who's learning how to shoot and who's form may be different from day to day, or even from shot to shot. Fletching is wonderfully effective at straightening out arrow flight. Some seem to forget that the whole premise of bare shaft tuning is that a fletched arrow with field points will shoot where you point it unless it's wildly off in dynamic spine. I can shoot fletched .500s, .400s or .340s out of my 50#@29" daily shooter and as long as they are sporting field points they all group together at 20-25 yards. Arrow flight with feathers and field points is good from all. Strip the feathers of and it's easy to tell that one of those static spine shafts is horribly weak, one is marginal, and one is a little on the stiff side. I can shoot two of the three by tweaking the length and point weight, one just won't work...but it would work just fine for practicing my form.

Tuning really becomes important when you want to shoot broadheads or are ready to maximize the efficiency of your gear. That said, lots of deer have been killed by bowhunters who didn't know about or didn't care about tuning.

Like you said, so much of matching arrows to stickbows is user dependent. It's also more complicated than with compounds. We all have our own little idiosyncrasies that may shift our arrow needs a little weaker or stiffer from the ideal or norm. That's why Stu's calculator or a chart is usually said to give a "tunable" arrow, not necessarily a perfect arrow.

Rather than proclaiming what someone else should be shooting, maybe it's better to give them the resources to find out for themselves. After all, nobody can tune their bow for them.

Whenever you are teaching anything, you must break it up into catagories A B C D.

Explain A without drifting into B.

We used this method to maintain order & control at Boating accident fatalities. As a State LEO, I was the one everyone was waiting on. Upon arrival, there are EMT's busy running around, families crying and balling, dead people or unconscious present, Sheriff deputies approaching with little pieces of notes, names, etc. YOU are in charge . How do you maintain composure ?

A B C D. Training. A = medical- who needs B = any further danger ( spilled gas, etc ) C

I think you get it . A = Basic Form

Under A, divide up

1) grip

2) anchor

3) complete draw

4) explain gap-stinctive. Most will end up partial gapping.

B------

I believe one of the most difficult factors to mitigate is that most people believe and state that their draw weight is an inch or two longer than it actually is. 2 inches will make a significant difference in tuning. This is one of the reasons someone says their 500 spine 50@29 is nock right, because it's really more like 45@27.

Hard to be specific without actually watching a person shoot - form, arrow flight, etc. At best it's educated guesswork.

If I watch you shoot, short draw, fail to anchor or follow up, use a poor grip, and your arrows wobble, well, I'll have starting point. And it won't be a spine recommendation!

Leatherwall is a fine resource, however in-person mentoring is far better for learning...even if the mentor is "wrong" on some point or other. Why? Because the archery itself measures the correctness. If someone shoots better than you do it is probably because that person has learned something you have not learned.

For reasons like those mentioned above, I have never given, or asked for, advice/guesses on the correct spine arrows... and never will.

We're releasing sticks with our fingers under approx. 50#s of string tension therefore?...

I'm of the belief that attributes such as spine, point weight and length pale in comparison too the variances involved concerning things such as bow hand torque and cleanliness of release from archer too archer...especially those who are new too the activity.

Ballpark recommendations (where arrow spine is concerned)are more than good enough for the newby...where we do them a dis-service is if we infer or suggest (in any way) that the problem lies within their equipment as thus begins "the great gear chase" leading the newbie to thinking they can buy better groupings if they only had better....

jmho...L8r, Bill. :)

Sauk Mtn=

Good thoughts and thinking

Quite a valid point, in a couple of ways. One, in assuming a well experienced archer is considering a novice's place in the experience.

Another in that well defined grey area of: what works for one archer may not work for another".

Part beauty, part frustration. I am somewhere in the middle, and try to address the poster's frame of mind and experience when I feel I can offer something.

Mark, Harold Groves recommended 2114 for my new 60# Spitfire as well, which turned out to be perfect.

He showed me some other basics. He was a good man and good mentor...I was fortunate to shoot in his indoor Albuquerque range.

Groves bows were famous for limbs that are thinner than most...that, along with avoidance of actionwood lams, accounts for their speed...and makes brace height more critical. Not noisy when set up as he recommended: higher than many other recurves.

JK, glad that worked for you. Just to offer a perspective, my wife has a bow from one of the most highly regarded bowyers her, and over on TG. His spine suggestion for wood shafts has been spot on.

For carbons, it was nothing but frustration, bringing us back to wood shafts. Point being... it all depends.

Suggestions for getting someone in the ballpark for correct spine are just that....suggestions.

I do find it hard to believe someone claims to be properly spined when they have a very stiff/weak spine with a draw weight and bow that shouldn't match. Sure arrows will group if they're all the same, but that doesn't mean they're flying straight. A big broadhead on the end of a fletched arrow will let you know real quick....

know what you are saying fire keeper,

I have a 50's style recurve 47#@26" and I draw 26"

likes 2117's with 175 grain points =by all reasoning they should be way too stiff cut to 27.5" bop BUT--they bare shaft perfect even way out there - had a hard time accepting it , and played with a bunch of stuff , It is what it is

Here my deal on arrows if people ask for opinions. Most people should be able to weed through the bs to get the answers they want. Everyone knows about arrow charts which is a ball park figer to get you close if people don't like the answer they get than don't ask. People like to but in to arrow debates that could barley rid a bike with out training wheels. There was one guy that said I can tune my bow to shoot 3 different spines of arrows I can too but what you have is one under spined arrow an one that is borderline week and one just right. Arrows are personal to every archer. There is one thing the leatherwall never will run out of and that is bad advice but the good usually out ways the bad. If someone is committed to finding out what some of us already know is they are going to have to buy more than one dozen arrows in there lifetime and about 10 different bows and you can learn alot doing it by yourself.

"Most people should be able to weed through the bs to get the answers they want."

What if they're new to archery?

I shoot left with every bow I own or borrow. Something about my form I guess. Therefore I shoot full length arrows with too much weight. Not something any one would advise me to do, not knowing how I shoot. But I finally figured it out.

I gave up trying to figure out that stuff for people over the computer when...

A very knowledgable shooter/hunter tells me he's shooting a 65@30 widow recurve and is getting perfect arrow flight with a 31" 35/55 (.500) gold tip with 350 BH on the front. Shoots the same arrow out of a 72# MOAB LB, perfectly.

I am confident the guy knows what he is doing and have no reason to question him....but that set-up is beyond conventional math!

So now, if it shoots good..shoot it.

Folks?...too me?...suggesting or even talking arrow spines with new archers is like trying to teach algebra to someone who hasn't mastered basic math yet and too them?....the results will be much like Forrest Gump and his proverbial box of chocolates.

After all?...if the archer hasn't even mastered the skill of executing the same exact shot twice?..."Spine" is a moot issue...where any ballpark suggestion is a good one for the time being.

But as they progress in their skill level?...and begin to see a consistent reaction from their arrows?...IMHO even at this point there aren't many who are capable of making suggestions...including myself...and the reasons are many including..

1. We have no clue how clean their release is or what sort of bow hand torque they may be imparting unto their bow..and speaking of "Their Bow"?...

2. What type is it?...Longbow?, Recurve?, Hybrid?...and how efficient are their limbs at storing and delivering energy?...and speaking of their bows?..what about...

3. Their Riser?...is their riser cut too center?...past center?...before center?...and the there's always the matter of their...

4. "Strike Plates": how thick or thin is it or do they even have one at all?...and if they do?...is it of a hard or softer material?...but wait!...because we forgot to ask...

5. How long is their bow?...and what's it braced at?...with what string material and how many strands?...and speaking of strings?...are they running...

6. String Silencers?...and if so?...how many?...how big?...where/how are they positioned?...what type?..whiskers?...wool?...fur balls?...and btw?....as long as we're talking strings?...

7. How thick is their center serving?...do their nocks fit too tightly?...and speaking of nocks?...what are they using for...

8. Nocking Points?...one or two?...what are they made of?...where are they set?...and then did we remember to ask if they achieved near level arrow flight before making any observations or claims regarding spine reaction?

and just think...we haven't even begun to learn anything about the archer handling this bow yet which brings me too asking things like...

9. Tab or Glove?

10. Canted or Straight up?

11. What grip are they using?...High, Medium or Low?

12. What's their Draw Length?...did they measure it?...how?....is it consistent?

Yet?...we know what spine, length and point weight they require right? LOL!

Okay...I'm done...carry on Gentlefolk! :)

In Re the original question here....

No.

And as in a Samuel L. Jackson autograph model HELL, NO.

It's one thing if Viper is standing there watching the whole sequence of a shooter with pretty well-established form. But for those of us less qualified and/or not actually standing there, JMO... Talking to a new shooter about fine-tuning for spine is like picking out fancier shingles to put a new roof on a house while you're still pouring the foundation.

If anybody really wants help... Or wants to be able to help....

Required: slow-motion video shot from over the shooter's draw-side shoulder so that there is zero question about what the arrow is doing. And not just one shot, but a good number, all of which land in a decent group... And it needs to be reasonably obvious that the same shaft was used every time.

Once you have that, you know Strong or Weak. After that, all you have to do is strengthen or weaken what you started with by changing ONE variable at a time.

And anyone who recommends changing more than that should be strung up by his thumbs or one or more other suitably painful appendage(s).

If you can't get a group, then spine is not (yet) the problem unless you can't get a generously-fletched shaft to fly straight enough to be useful.

Because dynamic spine is all about balancing the acceleration of the arrow and the inertia of the point. And if changing the stretch or the weight of the bowstring by a grew grams or twisting up the brace height by 1/8 or 1/16 of an inch is going to affect dynamic spine requirements, then a creepy, grabby, or inconsistent release or an ill-defined anchor point will throw so much noise into the system that there cannot possibly be a "correct" solution. EVER.

So JMO, next time a New Guy comes in asking about changing the spine of a reasonably sensible set-up, we should tell him to switch to 4 1/2" or 5" shields with a generous amount of helical...and not to worry about it. As in "and don't come back 'til you've busted off all of your nocks!"

I dunno Andy Man, 2117 is optimal for your setup, even an old easton chart calls for it.

Mudcreek.....that's a string picture problem if you are right handed.

Thanks GLF- now I don't feel so bad

I like the question posed as the title, are we really helping new shooters?

The responses to the question vary from solid suggestions on the sort of advice that is most helpful to new shooters to examples of bow, spine and point weight combinations that often confuses new shooters.

As someone who has struggled through these questions, I believe that the best answer is to coach newer shooters more on process with a focus on arrow flight than specific suggestions. Let's teach them to fish rather than telling them how we fish.

Great topic and a thought provoking one. Thanks for initiating this.

Are we actually helping new shooters? NO, MOSTLY NOT!!!

Everyone knows this site is for entertainment, not knowledge for the newB. The new shooters have way to much BS to try to wade thru and figure out who knows what. Sorry, but true. I laugh at myself when I get sucked in, and actually try to help somebody here. There are some very knowledgeable archers/ bowhunters here that offer help, then get pzzzed by the ever presents of the negativity of a few wanna-b's.

There a SEVERAL posters here that are barred from about every other site, with a reason. They offer nothing but negative thoughts, while not actually knowing ANYTHING ABOUT TUNING, FORM OR MOST BOW/ ARROW RELATED, RELATIVE ARCHERY INFORMATION.

NEWB's run!!!!

Have a Happy and Safe Memorial Day Weekend.

I recently converted to cp kids, 20 something, shooting the same bow with virtually the same draw length, they required arrows that were ten pounds spine different, aluminum cut to 1 inch beyond. Six months later, the weaker releaser needed to go up in spine and the stronger releaser needed down in spine, to a point where they were both shooting the same arrow, 2016 with 160 grains up front. The purity of the release and follow through, even the energy in the bow arm makes a huge difference on spine requirements and arrow speed. A beginner cannot describe that on a forum with a clarity that can be understood many times.

Best advise a new shooter could get is try to find a mentour to learn from them. Read all this BS is fruitless like one said took 2.5 to figuire it out and is still a relative new shooter. If you have any savy you can figuire this out relative to your equipment and its made so much harder than it really is.

For this reason is usally why so many bad habits form.

Form is very important if not the most but not always. If your shooting stationary targets or wild game you learn to adapt to what it takes to hit.

What works for one might not for another same as arrows and bow weights and styles.

Each archer has to find and determine their own grove. Its that simple.

I just want to fling arrows

Yeah you know, this isn't all that difficult. We all, most of use anyway were potty trained fairly quick so what's the big deal with a bow an arrow????????. Pull string back and try to hit what you want to hit. Try again. Keep trying til your pretty good at it. Some of you guys try to make this out to be a quest of some sort. You all learned to drive right? Figured out how to make kids right? Can boil water without burning it right????????? Put arrow on string. Pull String back while looking at where you want to hit. Let go of string. Try again. And again. And again...............

Too many variables in choosing an arrow for a newbie like Jinkster says. Long or short, wood, carbon or aluminum, hunting or target, heavy for penetration or light and fast, longbow or recurve, and most importantly center cut.

The best we can offer is what works for us and relay that to them. If he has half a brain he can come up with something that will be close.

Jinkster, you got it, I have six arrows that are spined perfect for my bow, if I used a mechanical release, (GOD FORBID!!!) these arrows would group within two inches at 20 yards, but!!!! due to my gripping the bow, plucking the string, dropping the bow at release and a couple other things that I have to concentrate on during a shot I don't group them that tight....LOL!............wing

I think we give them too much information. It's okay to give them a starting point but giving them *our* end point is information overload.

A shooter asks what he needs for a 50 lb recurve, tell him .500 is fine. Telling him 'I cut mine to 29 7/8"' is probably pointless. Better to teach him how to start from full length, observe flight and impact, and trim to tune.

Tell him to get a mixed set of WOODEN arrows of the various spines they suggest.

Some of our EXCELLENT sponsors will be happy to do that inexpensively.

DanaC:

"I think we give them too much information. It's okay to give them a starting point but giving them *our* end point is information overload."

Yep...couldn't agree more.

Those of us who've been at it for years here have things pretty much in hand and if you're like me?...that means when you work on something?...for me it's...

"One Thing At A Time"

of about 7 different things I work on including but not limited too....

1. Stance

2. Grip

3. String Purchase

4. Draw

5. Anchor & Alignment

6. Back Tension

7. My Release

and then there's always the other form anomalies I need to keep tabs on like am I dropping my bow arm or snatching the grip at the shot so?...

Just take yourselves back and remember that these new archers are starting out with pretty much nothing but their bow...some arrows and a lot of determination...remember what that was like for you?...starting from greenhorn scratch?

And what's the first thing the new archer wants to think?...

"Nah..you gotta be kidding me...this shouldn't be that tough!"

And what's the first thing they want to believe?....

"Something must be amiss with my equipment!" :(

and then they come to forums just like this one and what do we do?...what we know...which includes addressing spine....which is the knee jerk topic we gravitate too when someone has...

"Can't hit the center issues"

must be the bow...right? LOL! ;)

"must be the bow...right?" LOL ;)"

Way to kill the economy Jinkster. Come on, bowyers need to eat too! ;)

And how am I gonna get the next cheap bow? :)

Or just leave 'em full length.

Sigh...this is why I rarely post on trad sites anymore. Love reading the hunt stories and seeing the pictures , but people insisting on taking something so simple and turning into something complicated makes me wanna vomit.

This site is entertainment, some cool photos and experiences, and I believe we are helping new shooters. This site has occasional posts from the best of the best, bow designers and merchants, folks who may be starting to get old soon like me who has old dog stories that may wander on, some that post just to post, but also we have some really talented younger shooters who see things in more detail than I ever thought of, and they have some very interesting questions. Don't mind if the same person ask the same question every week. Always a different slant to it. Some topics seem to get a life of their own. I've been sucked up into many like this one.

I really can not say if sites like this hurt or help. Sure a coach would be the best way to get started but how many here had a real coach? We can only offer what has been our experience. I will say it is harder for an FNG these days to start with trad. There are very few archery shops that they can get help, almost all deal with wheel bows. Another point made by so many others is dead on. Each persons form is not the same, even coached shooters will vary. Not offering some sort of advise can have a negative effect as well. The FNG will think archers are a bunch of elitist he/she do not want to be affiliated with. We lose then.

To answer the original question; no.

I read this thread with NO interest of a reply, but I'm reminded of something a wise man once told me in regard to the efoc sect and obsessive tuning overload; "As long as the pointy end gets there ahead of the feather end, you're on the right track".

Yes, this is perhaps an oversimplification of the process, but on the other hand...some are quite overly possessed with the endeavor.

Last year I was playing around with bare shaft tuning my 52lb WhippenStick Phoenix. The charts kinda pointed me to 2018 aluminum, but other Phoenix owners told me Ken's bows are pretty high performance...of which I heartily agree.

I wound up shooting 2117's...and couldn't get em to bare shaft for $#/^. However, fletched they are perfect...field points and broadheads shoot and hit identically...with impressive zip to boot.

Then, just for giggles, I bare shafted with 2219's. PERFECT flight...out to 30 yards!!! Does this mean I should shoot them...out of 52lbs? Not for me.

So...while I understand the bare shaft tuning principles...the pointy end IS getting there first...no fishtailing or porpoising...and they're hitting where I'm aiming.

I'm satisfied.

Go ahead...fire away...

Are we helping new shooters? I think by and large, yes we are. This site sure has helped me. When I started out 6 or 7 years ago, I didn't ask a lot of questions on here, but I did read and follow this site a lot. Follow it enough and you will see patterns or consistent answers concerning tuning and set-up. Without seeing someone actually shoot, most on here probably can't give 100% guaranteed perfect tuning info, but most probably can tell the newbie that a 75-95 is too stiff for a 45lb bow. Can it be made to work? Maybe sometimes, but typically not.

Do we give too much info at times? Sure, probably at times, but even giving too much info lets the "newbie" know that it is not just a simple A + B = C formula. As long as the info is not grossly wrong, then generally it should be beneficial, and I believe it generally is. If someone really wants to learn, there is plenty on this site to learn from.

Not much point in saying the exact some thing someone else just did, so forums tend to spread either contradictory information, or they take things too far as people trot out ever more obscure info. But that is how they are better than edited material. It is likely all here, sort through it, the answer should be in here somewhere, who says we need to lay it out perfectly.

I never ever realized the multiple arrow selections for any given bow/archer until these archery sites materialized. (Only been shooting for 50 years) And yes Sauk Mtn very valid point.

What the rookie wants to know is, what's the right arrow? What he needs to know is how to determine it for himself. He needs a starting point and basic tuning knowledge.

Giving him more than that is pointless. Better to wait until he asks the next question. You can't rush the learning process.

You guys are helping more than you'll ever know! The pic I attached isn't about grouping,, it's about "look what I learned to do",,,,thanks to you guys! I've been thru the learning curve for the past 2 weeks now and I can tell you "bareshafting" is the worst advice to give a rookie without watching them shoot. Nock point height, mid range brace height, and release of the arrow should be the main focus. You guys helped save this little bow from a certain auction website ;) Cheers guys!

The learning curve is rather brutal at times. In most cases we most likely confuse a newbie.

I believe a good coach or a single, experienced, mentor is the shortest path.

I like being contrary,

SO

I'm gonna say YES, we are helping MOST of the time.

Without the input they get here, many would not have any input at all.

Granted, there are times some of that input is complete lunacy, but it shouldn't take long for folks to start recognizing things for what they are.

There's a GIANT Library of good info to be gleaned from this site, that would not be here if good hearted knowledgeable folks hadn't offered it.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

8^)

Rick

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