60# Longbow and wood arrows. Don't have an NFAA Target but used a Rinehart target and a tape measure. Shot from 20 yards fixed crawl

First end was X 5 4 4 4. This is going to be easy :)

Then my brain slowly disintegrated and couldnt break 200. I was getting physical fatigue too but it was a 90% focus problem. I have a hard time shooting each arrow as ONE shot and not part of a group.

Some day maybe...

Well, that first end was dam good. Nice shooting. Was the bow wearing you out, or was your focus slipping?

You just described about 80% of traditional archer's experience with their first 300 round, so don't feel bad. It's a great mental challenge to keep the good shooting going end after end after end.

My first was also with a 60#+ longbow, but I was using Legacy 2020 aluminum arrows. It was humbling to say the least.

Keep at it. Practice makes it much easier, and now, you have a goal (to beat your previous best score!). :D

Welcome to the ominous world of the big blue spot. You'll get better, the indoor round is an exercise in mental discipline. Properly pursued, it will improve your archery skills.

Some of the best practice there, mental and form. Any formal target round will make anyone a better archer.

Yep, its a rough gig. But its those good shots that keep you coming back! And it hurts when you plan on having a good evening and drop 20 unexplained points;(

We're talking usually 70 arrows. Two warm up rounds and then 60. That's exhausting even with a 35 pound bow. I'm referring to competition. The last two ends are as tough mentally as physical if you have a good score going.

I use to shoot it a lot, but now if I could shoot 30 arrows with 35 pounds I'd be happy. Still killing stuff with 50 though.

Bowmania

Been shooting winter leagues for 20+ years with different recuvres. The first year my goal was to score every arrow(I didn't ) shooting around 200. Fast forward to 2016. Average was 279, personal best was 286 twice . It's mostly the mental part when you get to about 250 or so. You CAN do it, but that chunk of gray matter between your ears keeps getting in the way.

200 with Longbow is the benchmark, not many people shooting over 240 with Longbow, World Indoors 240-250 is average for top guys, although I have seen a 265 shot in competition. (that's IFAA L/B with woodies and split finger)

You did pretty well with a 60# bow.

It's an exercise in concentration and Form, best way for me is to take my time between shots to recover mentally/physically and imagine I'm not shooting 5 arrow ends but one arrow at a time like it's my one and only arrow.

I didn't "grow up" shooting in clubs or leagues. I shot my first 300 round when I was in my late 40's with a 65# Martin Bushmaster. It about ruined me. LOL

Everyone is right about the focus too.

One strategy I tried was keeping my shot sequence steady (time wise) for each end. But that resulted in a some bad shots where I wasn't ready tireless but did any way (needed to correct something).

What I KNEW I wouldn't work was having long hold times on 60 arrows :) I have a real problem with my mind wandering while shooting reps.

Once upon a time when I was younger and fitter (late 70s) my average was high 280s, best ever score using a Hoyt TD, sights, stabilizers and kliker was 293 and I never won a shoot. I would not have classed those scores as world class at the time. Shooting this round requires a disciplined shot sequence, very good physical condition and the ability to keep your head together. My head was what brought me undone. I started scoring backwards. Each arrow I dropped out of the centre lowered my possible and that was my undoing. But I did love that style of shooting.

My experience with target shooting is I've found it can be a double edge sword sometimes. What I mean is yes it's a great training regiment IF you have good habits. If you have bad technique it usually makes it worse if you don't correct it. It is fun and a good measure of ability. DJ

My experience with target shooting is I've found it can be a double edge sword sometimes. What I mean is yes it's a great training regiment IF you have good habits. If you have bad technique it usually makes it worse if you don't correct it. It is fun and a good measure of ability. DJ

Hold it, hold it, HOLD IT. When I see the scores people are talking about, I didn't think sights (with a stick) would be in the equation. I would consider 250 average with sights maybe a tad high today. Without more like 200.

Trad shooters today are terrible (on a whole).

Bowmania

I represent that remark, Bowmania.

Bowmania, sights don't make that much difference actually. Throw in a stabilizer and clicker, now those are game changers. But just a simple sight on a bare bow? Nope. Not worth 10 points to most archers. Most archer's form is so poor that all a sight does is amplify the real problem.

Congrats on your first round. Indoor paper is a mental grind, and if you're not used to it, physically exhausting. Thankfully, both get better with practice. Keep at it. You're doing fine.

Yep, I don't find it easy. I have to really do things correctly to break 240. And my bow is much easier to shoot then yours.

I'm with Limbwalker, sights are no big a deal, Stabilizer lots! I went to a CD WF-25 riser its a dedicated barebow riser& weighs over 4 lbs. Some shoots I can use any stab, some 12", and some none. that heavy weight forward riser really helps when I can't use any stab. Don't use a clicker.

Stabilizers and clickers(draw check device) are the secret of very tight groups on any indoor round. When using a sight being able to get the correct sight picture, having a stable bow and then exactly the same draw length shot after shot just about guarantees a great result. Of course as I said before your mental state in being able to block out distractions and noise plays a huge part as well. I stand in awe of the great barebow shooters who have achieved amazing scores with just a bow. A heavy riser does help stability but add even a 12" stabilizer and you have a lot smoother shooting bow.

I think 'ol limbwalker probably knows of what he speaks. He's knda' been there and done that.

Just wondering what sighting method you guys were using if any. Gap, point of arrow, some type of crawl?

For me, its what I would refer to instinctive (focusing on target) with out getting to another long drawn out discussion. I average in the 20's broke 40's a few times with my hunting bow with loaded quiver.

Shawn,

"Sorry but if you or anyone averaged 279 they are world class shooter. Even the recurve guys shooting sights rarely average that again unless they are world class."

Averaging 279 with a barebow recurve is certainly excellent shooting, but it's rather pedestrian with an Olympic recurve setup. On an NFAA 300 round "world class" in that category is very high 290s.

John's right; the stabilizers and clicker (for people with TP) make a much bigger difference than the sights when it comes to indoor paper.

With an oly rig or even just freestyle limited ,300 is world class now a days on the blue face. Back in the 80's with my Yamaha I shot 296 or 297 almost every time in league or at shoots but couldn't quite get that 300, I just wasn't world class. Btw my Yamaha wasn't set up oly, I used an Evans power peep and single stab, was shooting freestyle limited. I'd shoot clean till about the 7th or 8th end then have brain freeze and drop my 3 or 4 points. Then shoot the rest clean.

Candyman, I can't speak for other but I use the gap/split vision aiming system.

"Trad shooters today are terrible (on a whole)."

The few good ones you do have, are REALLY good.

This thread has me thinking about shooting a " 300 round". Went to Lancaster supply to see target faces and was confused on what I should get for this type of round. Found FHAA but several sizes/ types. Looking for advice.

Maple Leaf 40cm NFAA Single Spot Target Face

$0.30

Item # 3050012

Catalog Page # 298

Maple Leaf 40cm NFAA Single Spot Target Face

Here you go...

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/maple-leaf-reduced-nfaa-single-spot-40cm-target-face.html

Jason, your link is to the half-sized (20 cm) targets, even though it says 40 cm at the top of the page.

I like the half-sized and even smaller for simulating aiming across the dining room

I just ordered a morrel polypropylene target face with two single 40cm dots. It has grommets on the corners. Should be nice to have around

"Jason, your link is to the half-sized (20 cm) targets, even though it says 40 cm at the top of the page."

Oops, that would suck. :)

Try this one....

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/maple-leaf-40cm-nfaa-single-spot-target-face.html

"Sorry but sights are a huge difference for most. Scores go up 30 points and more in most cases I seen unless guys are point on shooters or good gappers. Shawn"

You might want to take in to consideration the level of skill and knowledge that it takes to become an Olympic archer before arguing or rendering a counter opinion. And by that I mean one who's actually shot in the Olympics, in the medal round if I'm not mistaken, which is merely who limbwalker is.

Can't wait for you to tell him his arrows are improperly spined as well. :)

lol@Roger!

If you think you've got archery form prefected try an nfaa indoor round. It'll let ya know if you have form problems.

Hey, for some guys maybe sights are the answer. I dunno. All of us are different. I know for me (and I think for Jason too, but correct me if I'm wrong) a clicker is a HUGE advantage - sights or no sights.

And of course, the stabilizers mentioned above, are the other big advantage.

So I can only speak from my experience, that of my students and maybe some of my fellow target archers over the past 12-13 years - but for me at least, the 12" stabilizer now allowed in the NFAA "traditional" division is worth at least 10 points. Maybe 15. In other words, if I'm shooting without it I can usually score in the 270-275 range. With a 12" stabilizer, I'm burning 280 and sometimes 285. So that's my observation from real-world shooting.

Clicker? Man, who knows. I know that before I used one, I was a snap-shooting, short-drawing "trad" mess. :D After, I was an Olympian. So I suppose I'm a poster-child for what a clicker (used correctly) can do - along with 100,000 arrows or so. :D

But sights? Meh. Don't do too much for me. Even when I use a sight with my Olympic bow, it's a huge open ring that I just use as a "guide" more than anything. I am still "burning a hole" in the X-ring with my vision, just like I did and still do when I shoot trad gear.

For me, shooting known distance at the same target I wouldn't have an advantage with a sight unless I also had a peep.

Gapping or crawling a 20 yard shot isn't a problem. But keeping my grip, anchor and release consistent for 60 arrows IS.

Physical and mental endurance both come into play. I normally limit my practice to 30-35 shots because my focus wanders after that.

My hat's off to anyone who can shoot arrows 56-60 well ;-)

John,

I think what provides the biggest advantage depends on the individual's weaknesses. For example, a clicker was an enormous game changer for me because of TP. For someone else it may be a nonissue on indoor paper. A short stabilizer is kind of a moot point for me, but a long rod definitely puts a few more points on my scorecard. Those of us with consistent conscious aiming systems probably wouldn't see much advantage to a sight indoors. For me, the only thing it would do would be to allow me to use fat arrows without the inherent problem of aiming with them. For an instinctive shooter, putting an aperture on their bow may be a tremendous help.

Yep! My weakness is a 'roaming anchor' and sometimes my grip pressure is different (high to low) causing the bow to tilt up or down changing my point on.

Shooting at least 100 arrows a day, I'm finding my groove. Today's 20 yard groups are looking like this when I just get my anchor right.

Awesome shooting!

A clicker used properly also gives you a better release by forcing back tension and making you release while drawing farther.

my personal best this year was 292, no clicker, Stabs or sights, just Stringwalking, it is by no means my average mid to low 280's depending how much work I put it.

It's one of my hardest disciplines (a very mental game), Field/3D seems easy in comparison, I think that challenge is what drives me, I see it as my weakest discipline and wont accept it ;-)

Wow Stephen, nice. I could have never come close to that without the bells n whistles even in my younger days. Very good shooting!

Some excellent scores by some of you guys!! Nice, gives me some inspiration. Our club has winter league every year,except this past one while the new facility was being constructed, I always shot my lighter limbs on my hunting rig 62#. I finally got a couple lighter draw bows just for winter shooting and am looking forward to seeing just how good it can get. Should be fun!

I enjoy shooting the 300 round. I use my hunting weight bows (no site) and no gap so instinctive. At my club and among most of the trad ppl I am the exception as far as enjoying it. I look at it as great practice in form and when shooting leagues, mental practice.

For me, even though it is practice at a fixed distance. I find it helps my 3d shooting which in turn helps my hunting.

I shot indoor leagues with my recurve for years. In fact all four of us on my team did. Unfortunately the pressure of league shooting an performing (I guess) became a real negative for two of my team mates.... When my team dissolved I stopped shooting leagues. I still enjoy the 300 round, just shoot it by myself now.

If you like it, keep at it! It is all a game and all can be or should be FUN.

Bill

Shawn,

What you said was...

"Sorry but if you or anyone averaged 279 they are world class shooter. Even the recurve guys shooting sights rarely average that again UNLESS THEY ARE WORLD CLASS." (caps mine)

That was flat out incorrect. There's nothing "world class" about a 279 average with an Olympic recurve setup. Sorry, but that's just a fact.

"90% of the guys on here with sights, stabilizer, weights could not shoot 275 on their best day."

I don't know about that at all. I prefer to encourage people, not sell them short. It's amazing what people can do when they stop listening to folks who constantly tell them what they CAN'T do.

Have I been to any big shoots lately? Um, yeah. Several IBO world championships, a few NFAA national championships, an IFAA world field championship and more sectional and state championships than I can count. And for kicks, I go to Comptons every year. No disrespect, but if you actually believe shooting 279 with an Olypmic recurve would "...be very competitive most anywhere in the world." then you haven't actually seen the results from any major tournaments.

Top 3 Freestyles in our 300 rounds don't shoot under 290, top guy has shot 299 last 4 tourneys. Must be a bummer not getting that last point.

Shot with Timo Leskenin at last worlds, he set 3 new WR's in Barebow (out shot BB Compound), two weeks previous he set a Finnish National BB Recurve record of 299 (using WA legal setup). It is awesome to be on the line with somebody of this level and watch them shoot, he gave me some good tips and inspired me to be better and feel I made some good progress this season. Still a way to go as I would like to break that 290 barrier in competition, I feel it should be reachable for Barebows using Stringwalking method.

279 means you might have the tools to become world class with lots of work and coaching.

Shawn, one of the issues with your thinking is that actual, real, current "world class shooters" don't agree with your criteria....or much of anything else you have to say these days. But, what you do have working for you is that you believe your opinion to be fact, so there's that anyway.

20 yds 60 arrows

12 ends of 5 arrows at 20 yards

Ventura66 the indoor Flint round is shot from 5y out to 30y, it's more fun for me than the 300 round at 20y, maybe better winter indoor training for Bowhunters than just the 300 round.

They had this round in the last world Indoors, it messed a few people up because you cannot change arrows through the tourney, this means people shooting long heavy arrows to give them a 20y point on for the 300 round struggled on the flint.

A lot of trad. bow hunters feel shooting paper is a totally irrelevant, I guess I'm somewhere in between and feel the exercise is quite helpful even though I don't think the typical 300 round is ideal for bowhunters. What counts for the bowhunter is the first shot not the 60th, but of course any bowhunter can use the 300 target and devise their own accuracy practice standards such as in one shot a day for 15 days or just 15 shots...whatever they feel is most relevant to actual hunting situations and hunting accuracy consistency.

David the 60th is also the 1st, yes you shoot 60 arrows total but you only shoot each arrow one at a time. It's just about having the right mentality. ;-)

I doubt anybody just shoots one arrow a day and thinks it will be good enough for Bowhunting, I'm guessing a lot Bowhunters shoot around 30-60 arrows per session.

It's all about setting a balance, the more varied practice you have the more confident Archer you become. New and different challenges can also keep your shooting fun and interesting.

Don't think anybody is saying 300 round skills are the only thing good for Bowhunters, just one of many ways to monitor focus, accuracy and consistency that may help you become a better Bowhunter.

Zetabow,

What I can say from my limited experience is that you can fool yourself into thinking you are 'pretty good' if you can just hit a target from a bunch of distances/angles and shooting positions.

While that is of course very important....shooting the SAME shot (especially while using an aiming method) uncovers your inconsistencies.

That said, when I shoot I start off good. Then I think too much. Then I get distracted thinking about how I am thinking too much. Then I am good again. Then I start thinking about the questions I should ask on Leatherwall and I am bad again :)

"David the 60th is also the 1st" amazing how many people don't get that.....

fdp amazing how many people don't get that ! What amazes me is that most people think that what you shoot is what it's all about ? I personally think it's more about the trip, the people you meet, the friends you make, the places you see. When I look at a Buckle or award that I have won, I think of the fun I had at that shoot, not what I shot, or who I may have beat.I say just come and shoot your best, have fun, maybe learn something from one of the guys that may for right now, is a better shooter than you. So come to a shoot and walk up and ask for help everyone will be glad to help you out. Just Sayin Cal

I averaged that 279. I went to the Vegas shoot and got my ass handed to me! Those guys are GOOD! I took 18th out of 67 BB shooters from around the world but the top guys........not in the same league for sure.

Shawn. I feel like you are getting beat up here. I know what you are saying though. The shoots that I go to, which are 3D shoots like Denton Hill, I would have to agree, 99% of the guys would not be able to shoot a 279 on spot targets. Those average guys would indeed consider a 279 world class. There are a lot of real world class shooters on this site that actually can shoot much better scores then that 279 but to the average guy a 279 would seem like world class. The club that I belong to is mostly compound shooters and although most of them shoot their hunting setups, they probably as a whole don't AVERAGE 279 each week.

279 I could never quite shoot those scores Gapping with Recurve or above mid 240's with Longbow, woodies and split finger, I've only been able to do it with Stringwalking method but then the stakes are upped in BB, if you're not shooting mid 280's or higher you just won't be competitive on the world circuit.

I consider 300 rounds my weakest discipline, I was never that good and never really bothered much with them but since I've moved countries I have little choice here (unless your'e willing to freeze your fingers off), I still not crazy about these rounds, I keep working at them because I wont let these rounds get the better of me and I really see the benefit in the Spring when I start Field/3D rounds.

I averaged a 260.25 with a 60" 52#s @ 27.75 hunting bow. I could probably do better with less weight but I love to hunt. In my mind it won't do me any good to practice with a bow that I'm not going to hunt with. That said, I do like watching people pound the bullz with target rigs.

I have shot a 282 as a youngster with an Oly rig in practice . I broke 250 with my Titan and 35# limbs ... And was ecstatic! These days , I occasionally play the game with a 50# longbow ... If I break 210 I am having a great day .

To the OP ... Great shooting ... Keep it up

zetabow, I meant one could do the first shot of the day and keep score for a few weeks, but of course most people aren't going to shoot just one arrow a day.

""David the 60th is also the 1st" amazing how many people don't get that...." I guess one of them because if one shoots 60 arrows as per a typical 300 round with a hunting wt. bow most people will have a loss of form after perhaps the 20th shot due to the heavier draw wts.

A lot of older (and younger for that matter) archers suffer from arthritis and wear and tear on the joints; shooting full out 300 rounds over and over isn't helping. That's why I typically just shoot 15 or 20 arrow rounds - it's enough to test one's consistent accuracy although tournament archers will deride it for being nothing like a real 300 round. Maybe they'll mellow a bit when shooting that much begins to be more painful than fun. Eventually almost everyone will experience that if they stay in the game long enough.

I understand this David, I have tendon damage in my bow hand (ring finger locks closed when I clench my fist or grip anything hard) and had to drop the Longbow for a heavier mass ILF bow with a finger sling, it got too painful to shoot Longbow for any length of time.

Getting old sucks.

It does in that way, but in other ways living a long life is a privilege many will never have.

Getting old sucks - until you remember the alternative!

Yeah, joint pain, arthritis, accumulated wear and tear, it all adds up, in a negative sort of way. The days when I'd scamper up the hills at dark-thirty are gone. Now it's a slow trudge at best.

Broke my left (bow) arm some years back, had a plate put in, had to re-learn how to grip a bow. (High wrist only!) Rebuilt my archery form and actual improved some. Now I'm facing more surgery to remove the plate and fix a busted tendon, so I'll lose at least 3-4 months of shooting, most of the summer. Then back to the lightest bow to regain form and endurance.

Probably sell two or three too-heavy bows and stick to lighter draws, modern more-efficient designs that get the most from less poundage.

We adapt, because that's what we have to do.

""David the 60th is also the 1st" amazing how many people don't get that...." I guess one of them because if one shoots 60 arrows as per a typical 300 round with a hunting wt. bow most people will have a loss of form after perhaps the 20th shot due to the heavier draw wts."

Ya just explained it to yourself. You have to have the same level of physical ability and concentration on shot 60 as you do on shot 1. Now, that does not mean that there are not exceptions due to injuries. That's not even what's being discussed here.

Define "hunting weight bow". You can hunt just fine with a bow that will allow you to shoot well on a 300 round.

good point fdp,, I have a feeling that as some guys get warmed up,, after the 60th plus arrow may even be shooting better,, also I feel like practice with a lighter bow to develope great from will help with the heavier weight hunting bows,, that has been my experience,,

Mine too brad. In fact my experience is that the heavier the bow gets the more important that form and alignment become.

fdp, to an extent your are correct and I often argue that lower wt. hunting bows are ok. But for tournament archery at only 20 yds. I probably would shoot 35# and that's lower than I want to go for elk.

The statement I disagree with says the 1st shot is also the 60th shot which could be interpreted in several ways- the way you take it but also that the 60th shot is not the same as the first shot when you are not fatigued and form is compromised - meaning the 1st and 60th shot are totally different. Or, conversely one can interpret as they are the same because each counts the same.

At any rate, I believe in fewer shots for the bowhunter. To emulate actual hunting scenarios, arguably we should bundle up, etc. and I just think 60 shots is too many for most bowhunters. You can get a pretty good handle on your consistency with 20 shots. That isn't used in the regular 300 round in part because too many guys would be shooting the same score.

David, what if you enjoy shooting and hunt?

David...I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't hunt static, I'm always moving and exerting myself. That being the case there is always a certain amount of fatigue involved. I just assume that most folks do the same. Guess I'm mistaken however.

fdp, you're not necessarily mistaken there is a lot of variation in how people hunt as I'm sure you agree.

Penny, most people do...but my advice would be for serious year round shooters to consider their health over decades of shooting and listen to what people with injuries, arthritis are saying. Therefore, my advice would be to use lower wt. bows esp. for something like the 300 round which is close range shooting.

Also for bowhunting, I'm a proponent of 45-55# bows for men. Obviously, this is very individualistic but unless you are hunting elk size game, 45# is fine for deer, etc.. It would also do fine for tournament archery.

"My hat's off to anyone who can shoot arrows 56-60 well ;-)"

We have an outdoor round here in TX that has become very popular with our growing barebow community. It's 108 scored arrows, plus usually another 18 practice arrows, all shot in about 4 hours. We call it the "TOTS" (TX Outdoor Target Series) and most adult barebow archers shoot 60/50/30 meters. 126 arrows on a warm day in the wind will really challenge your stamina and focus.

I've heard of this round mentioned but I haven't seen it come up at the local shoots. Sounds like a darn good challenge.

John, could you describe the TOTS? You mentioned distances. What target and scoring system? Thx

If I shoot a 300 round to compete I use 45-50 lbs. If I shoot it for practice I use my hunting weight bows. One can shoot 60 arrows with a hunting weight bow just as easily as a target weight bow if he's built into it as he should be. Also a person can get bow weak as easily with a lower target weight bow if he's not built into it. A 300 round is less than I usually shoot for practice daily. My practice sessions are 100 shot minimum.

Sixty arrows isn't much at all. NFAA field rounds are 112.

Medicare -

The TOTS is a hybrid format loosely based on the old 4- distance "fita" but still using the distance and format that our current recurve and compound archers shoot nationally and internationally (122cm face at 70M for the recurve and 80cm face at 50M for the compound).

So, the round starts with a 122cm face at 70M for recurve and compound, and at 60M for barebow archers. The second 36 arrows are shot on an 80cm face at 50M (the most challenging), and the final 36 is a unique format - a 60cm face at 30 meters.

So it's kind of the middle half of the old "fita," but with a twist at 30.

I basically removed the old 90M distance that nobody ever really wanted to shoot and most venues cannot handle, and then shrunk the 30M face from 80 (which was too easy) to 60cm to keep things interesting and provide for a real opportunity for someone to catch up to the leaders.

The old fita was done after 50M, as nothing really changed at 30.

The way we shoot it, we shoot 3 to a bale and I give the compounders their own 6-ring target at 50 so they don't crush arrows, and then their own vertical 3-spot target at 30 so again, they don't crush arrows. This allows us to shoot 6 arrow ends all the way through instead of switching to 3 arrow ends at 30, which really drug things out. So we're done usually in 4 hours, including lunch.

I had no idea it would become as popular as it has, but it is.

The neat thing is that everyone gets something they are familiar with, plus they get to try something new. Recurvers still get their 36 arrows at 70M on a 122, compounders still get their 36 arrows at 50M on an 80, and for the barebow archers, the 60cm face at 30 is similar to a field shot.

Make sense?

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