Ok so here's the question. I buy and sell a lot of used bows. Even with a bow that's entirely new, there's always some inherent risk that it will break/something will be wrong. But when a sale is made and a bow does break, who should take responsibility and how does that change under different circumstances. For example, if you order a custom bow and on the third shot it explodes, most people would agree the bowyer should take responsibility (and most would of course). But if you buy a used bow from another person and it breaks, is it the seller's responsibility, or does the buyer accept the risk as part of the sale? And what's the time frame here? Meaning does it change if the bow breaks after a week versus a year? And now the big one: what if you buy a used bow from a shop instead of from an individual or auction site? Should th store take more responsibility than an individual would?

Generally I try to find a middle of the road solution in these circumstances that makes everyone happy, and each party shares a little bit of the pain. Just curious as to what you all think.

I think any bow that is more than a year old that breaks falls on the archer.....anything before then minus being irresponsible (left in car strung, strung and then shot when hot,dry fire, etc) I would hope the bowyer.

If you make a private purchase of a used bow....unless they MISREPRESENTED the condition of the bow it is AS IS and totally on the archer in my opinion.

There are exceptions to everything but that is how I look at it generally. I have bought quite a few used bows both recent and vintage models....have also sold some...only problem I have had is a bow I sold last year the string broke while they were shooting and it was a new string.

Point is you never know what happened to that bow prior with storage, handling, etc....

Cost of doing business...

keep em sharp,

ron herman

Good question, I'd say the buyer needs to know the answers before writing the check. Not after a problem develops.

I think Ron nailed it 100%. You have no clue as the buyer or seller.

I have had one bow break. It was back in '79 and it a Bear Super Mag. I had been shooting all day. While standing and talking I heard a TICK! I looked at my bow to see it had broken at the fade and the limb bent just enough to be exactly string length with zero tension.

Let's take that scenario and say I sell the bow two days earlier. Whose fault is it?

It's used, so unless you were misled by the seller, it's your issue....unless you have an agreement with the seller. No one can tell if a bow is going to break if there is no visible sign of a problem. I wouldn't even consider it unless it was misrepresented by the person selling the bow. Crap happens. The seller is half of any transaction, obviously...so they may work with your, but I wouldn't expect it.

Think what you would expect if you sold what you considered a good used bow and it blew up a month later. Do you want to be responsible for it? Sometimes you have to put on the big boy pants and get on with life.

If any of my bows were to fail, I know without a doubt who is responsible, since I made them all :^)

That's part of why I do it. I prefer full accountability, in failure and success.

Outside of my own little world, I think Ron covered it pretty well.

Because some people do not use a bow stringer and may not have the string on the groves properly, and you can not not be sure the new owner did not dry fire the bow (maybe because his arrow nocks were not tight on the string) you can not be sure it broke because of an imperfection of user error. If the bow was fine when you sold it, then it is buyer beware. If a person sells a bow he knows has imperfections he has an obligation to warn potential buyers. When I buy a used bow I look it over very well to be sure I see no issues. When I hand the seller the money, it is my bow, not his and all problems are now mine, not his.

I'd say fora custom bow-Bowyers warranty should cover it,check first and ask how long the warranty runs and what is covered. Buy from another person- Ask before deciding to purchase, ask lots of questions about if something were to happen how will it be handled between the 2 of you and what kind of time frame would these conditions fall under. Buy from a shop- Again get all details before deciding to purchase,some shops may give limited warranties,others may not,so get the details. Now another case is buy from someone you have dealt with before where you know the person is honest on his word,you may have to pay for shipping the bow back,so you'll lose that money but you'll get the bulk of it back or he/she might even offer up another bow to replace the one that got damaged.

I'd say fora custom bow-Bowyers warranty should cover it,check first and ask how long the warranty runs and what is covered. Buy from another person- Ask before deciding to purchase, ask lots of questions about if something were to happen how will it be handled between the 2 of you and what kind of time frame would these conditions fall under. Buy from a shop- Again get all details before deciding to purchase,some shops may give limited warranties,others may not,so get the details. Now another case is buy from someone you have dealt with before where you know the person is honest on his word,you may have to pay for shipping the bow back,so you'll lose that money but you'll get the bulk of it back or he/she might even offer up another bow to replace the one that got damaged.

Hi George, Not arguing at all just wanted a follow up. What if we're talking about buying not from an individual but a store that sells lots of used bows. It's obvious the store charges a higher price than you could find on a big auction site, and people are willing to pay it because apparently, the store checks out and only sells usable bows. You get the bow and it breaks after just a few shots - should the buyer still bear the whole cost?

This actually happened to me a year or so ago (not a delam but there was a terminal but small crack even before I shot it) and we just agreed I'd get a good deal on my next bow purchase. I really think there is some sort of trad archery karma if you do things right though - it seems like every time I help out another archer, I get it back tenfold.

Dang double post,Sorry Just one last thing,use Common Sense and just ask all the questions beforehand and everything should work out just fine.

Brian, if I'm buying a new bow, I expect a warranty. If a used bow, and it's a store/distributor, then I'll make sure ahead of time what their policy is. I don't have a lot of expectation that they will automatically replace or credit, but they may have that policy. Lots of ifs, ands and buts. 8^). I mostly buy mine from individuals and approach it from a "check it well first" mindset.

Once the bow is out of your eyesight it should be on the buyer. Who knows how that bow is being handled once it is out the door.

Let the buyer beware.

George Bush. :)

One of the reasons I never sell my own bows but put them on consignment at rmsgear. Get a good price and I don't have to ship the bow myself!

I had an old bowyer who probably built as many bows as anyone who ever lived tell me one time that EVERY bow was going to fail at some point. Regardless of how well it is taken care. There are things that can expedite the process, but they are all going to fail.

Rms is a wonderful company. Tommy is an amazing guy and I've had nothing but great experiences with them.

I have to add, it's refreshing to see a community of people who take real responsibility. Can you think of any other area where the buyer would understand the seller's perspective and bear the burden?? Maybe because we all know we'll be selling something soon to make room for the next buy!

If I buy it used and it has no visible signs that there may be trouble and it breaks sometime after the first shooting session I guess it's my baby. New should last past the warranty period or it's the bowyer's problem.

We don't really have any idea what happens after it leaves our hands and as long as you know there weren't any issues you have a clear conquence and it should be the buyer responcibilitys. I often said if there was some type of protection insurence that could be obtained someone could bank roll that endevoir and probably do well for themselves.

This is one of those areas that is not discussed enough and not so sure there's a lot to say anyways its always been buyer beware. If guys don't use stringers then its on them and foolish and not taking care of the bow properly.

I don't know if I can agree with all or at some point a bow will break? If its abused I can see it but if its taken care of that statement can be debaited I hope it never happens to any of us thats just sickning to think about and or worry us.LOL

Any bow I made or acquired and traded or sold that broke was replaced or money refunded, my fault or not, no time limit, just my way of doing business.

I had to grit my teeth and follow through a couple of times. Once I was taking the twist out of a vintage bow for a friend as a favor and the bow delaminated. He said forget it, pretty sure it was a yard sale bow. It cost me $125 to buy a similar bow to give him as a replacement but right is right.

I have had one bow fail, it was a 10 yr old hybrid short longbow, i had it several months of shooting before it broke in half at the top fade. I look at used equipment like this: if i receive it in the condition it was advertised i look it over for anything the seller may have missed and if i am satisfied then it is mine. Like when i buy a gun at a show from a stranger. If i get home and have problems with it, shame on me.

Eric I'm not sure if he's referring to wood bows.I'm not sure who-maybe Dean? Said he had a guy string a bow backwards and shoot it then wanted it replaced.

"whose" ;)

I have had several bows break on me after the warranty had expired. In each case, I contacted the bowyer and explained the circumstances. Usually the bowyer offered to sell a replacement bow/limbs at a significantly discounted price. This seemed like a fair settlement for all parties. I don't expect a bowyer to warranty a bow for life. I also don't expect an expensive bow to blow up one week after the one- or two-year standard warranty has expired either.

Just had some longbow limbs explode on my 3pc Black Creek Banshee last week. Thanks god the bow came with an extra set of recurve limbs, but the bow was used and I've had it for probably 6 months so what are you going to do.

"I have had several bows break on me after the warranty had expired."

Ollie, if that's so, you're doing something wrong. In 55 years shooting them, I've had 4 break (not counting selfbows)

It was either the wind's fault, or the baby weighed too much. All we really know for certain is; the baby was in the tree-tops, the wind blew, the cradle rocked, and finally "when the bow breaks, the cradle will fall".

Yes yes...I know that a tree 'bough' is not spelled 'bow'.

Last count I have owned over 50 bows bought in the last 7 years...this has never happened to me so I consider it to be a hypothetical situation that I do not even care to consider...I like to focus on sorting out real problems

DDave

"Most" folks would not consider offering a bow, up for sale, that is suspect. All you can do is represent the bow as honestly as possible.

If you buy a used bow its all yours once its in your hands. One shot, one day or one years it your baby. Guess I've been lucky in that I've never had a used bow I bought break on me for no reason.

I've had 2 new bows break right after their 1 year warranty expired. In all the years since I won't buy a bow with a 1 year warranty. Every bow I bought new since is under some sort of warranty even today. Within reason if it breaks the bowyer checks it out and if it isn't a case of abuse they replace it. I've never had a bow break from a bowyer that has that kind of confidence in their bows for that type warranty.

Whoever drew it, or strung it, if that's when it broke

btw, that's to original owner.

Used bow guarantee, if it breaks in two, you get both pieces.

ROFLMAO, Shootalot!

JMO - be an honest, respectable person. A Man (or Woman) of Integrity.

If it's your fault, it's your fault. If you buy a used bow, then sell it without abusing it in any way and with no detectable indications of its being compromised, and it breaks when in the hands of the next buyer.. It's part of what he signed up for when buying a used bow. That's part of the reason that they cost less than new ones, isn't it? Because if you owe YOUR buyer some kind of compensation, then doesn't the guy who sold it to YOU owe YOU something?

You can see where this leads, right? Every bow with a fully transferable lifetime warranty so that a 42nd-hand buyer gets a brand new bow if, after 145,000 shots, the bow breaks in his hands?

It'd be one thing if it were a bow which I had bought new and I sold it to someone I had a good feeling about and it broke on him within a coupla months... then, yeah, I'd probably try to work something out with him... but he'd have to be an awfully good friend of mine before I think I'd feel obligated for much more than the shipping....

John, if you have had four bows break on you sounds like you are doing a lot more "wrong" than me! One bow blew up while stringing. I was using an appropriate stringer and one limb blew apart as I lifted the bow up to string. Another bow broke when I set it in a warm room to dry after having been outside in a soaking rain all day. Another bow broke sitting on the deck while cradled in a chair as I was mowing the lawn. Was not a hot day either. Not sure what I did wrong in any of the situations. Bows don't last forever.

You can't guarantee a used bow period. It might last one shot or several thousand. Unknown proposition.

Every bowyer is different. I recently had a bow break that I have shot 10's of thousands of arrows out of over several years, and the bowyer is basically covering most of the bow minus costs and bumping me to the top of the list. That is great customer service in my book.

Been at this game a long time and have never heard of so many bows breaking. I have never seen a laminated bow break and I broke only one of my self bows.

Something wrong with new production and materials? What say you George S.

X2 jon

If I bought a bow and it broke after tens of thousands of arrows shot, I'd say I got my money's worth and the bowyer would never hear of it.

I didn't contact the bowyer asking for something other than to get back on the build list. It was he who made the offer.

johnnail........I was thinking the same thing about someone who has had several bows break.........doing something wrong!

For what it's worth... a good outcome for Sneaky Fox!!! Sneaky Fox's positive encounter from another thread. Hurray for everybody! Scott <')))>< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi guys, I hope there's nothing wrong with putting up a recommendation thread for a new shop I just had a great experience with. I wanted to give a strong recommendation for everyone to check out a shop called Trout Outdoors in PA which is a trad focused archery shop. They have a new website, I found them after the shop was recommended by a fellow leatherwaller and I'm not affiliated with them in any way except being a very happy customer. Ken the owner is a great guy who goes out of his way to be helpful. The prices on arrow components are some of the lowest I've seen, they have a lot of interesting used bows, and have handmade leather goods like quivers and possibles bags.

Ken has a section on the website called "bargain items" where I found a used bow for an incredibly low price. I spoke with him about the bow and he sent it off. I received it and took a few shots but the riser then cracked. This was absolutely no fault of the shop, we all know there's always some risk buying old bows and I didn't see anything wrong before shooting it. Since I think of trad archery as primarily a buyer beware market and since it was such a low priced item I told him about it and suggested he just give me a good deal on my next purchase. After this happened, I even made a post on the wall to see what everyone thought the standard move would be. I think George S at one point even said buyers should put their big boy pants on!

But Ken wouldn't accept letting me bear the cost since the bow failed so soon. He started sending me pictures of bows he had to see if any would be an acceptable replacement. I honestly did my best to eat the loss and even felt a little guilty after reading all of the posts on the wall agreeing it's a buyer beware market, but Ken just couldn't live with that, and a replacement bow was in the mail the same day I contacted him. You really can't beat that. Of course if I'd had the bow a month or even a week it would be a different story, but he was really understanding and attentive because of the circumstances.

It's really just a great shop with great prices, a lot of cool stuff, and really great values. Ken even has some not so perfect bows that he has at highly discounted prices, just so he can see them go home to people so they can try out our sport. Check the shop out, I can't recommend it enough.

Sneaky.

I lost two like new bows by selling them on the big auction site..One guy claimed a bow broke the first time he pulled it back. The second guy claimed the bow broke on the second pull..Of course they blamed me..When I buy a bow used, its my baby and if it breaks I complain to no one. That's the way bows are. Those two bows I sold were like new. I had pulled them and shot them both but as soon as they get in someone elses hands they broke. Oh yes, they would never send the broke pieces back either. One sent a picture but it could have photoshoppedd I believe.

George W. Bush, at least that is what I always hear on this end of Mn. When built by man it will break in time.

I've never had it happen to me on any bow I've bought or sold. On used bows I sell, I give the buyer a week or so to decide he wants to keep the bow. If it breaks within that time, I would cover it. After that, the buyer is on his own. I have no idea what might have caused a bow to break -- abuse, improper stringing, overdrawing, old age, etc.

I think one of the main reasons bows blow up is they are overdrawn. Sure, a lot of bows can be overdrawn a lot, but the trend nowadays is for folks to shoot shorter and shorter bows. Over time, some of these bows just won't stand up to a long draw. The fact that it still happens so rarely is testament to their durability.

One thing I always do before selling a bow is to ask the buyer's draw length. If I think the bow I have is too short/the wrong design for that person's draw length, I won't sell it. Likewise, I ask the draw length of the person I'm considering buying a bow from. If I think it's too long for the bow I'm considering, I won't buy it. Of course, I have no way of knowing who may have owned the bow before me or that person.

Avoids a lot of potential headaches and bad feelings.

The most failures I have had is with kids bows. Built to draw 18- 20" at 15-20 lb. and an adult draws it to 28. So far I have replaced every one but I had to bite my tongue also.

James

Used bow with a warranty from a private seller, I don't think so. Buying anything used comes with risk and when it happens to be a bow, breakage is one of those risk.

I take in a lot of bows and have very few break. I try to be as fair as possible and consider the situation on both used and out of warranty customs. Many would be surprised how often someone comes in with a damaged bow and attempts to trade it. I have even had others come and warn me about someone trying to trade a damaged bow.

For the most part, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and figure that they just didn't see the damage. I have one customer that caught me at a time where I was too busy to handle the trade properly. I was at a shoot and just swamped. I took him for his word and was familiar with the custom bow he was selling so we hashed it out while I worked on another customers bow. Later a bowyer friend came down to walk through the tent...he noticed the bow laying on the table. I had yet had a chance to examine it when my friend said "Oh man, you bought that bow? He tried trading it to me and I pointed out the separation in the riser and wouldn't trade"

My mistake for trusting with out verifying. That customer still shops in my tent, but I will never forget what he did nor have I ever mentioned it to him. I guess he figured I make so much money in this traditional archery business that I was better to bare the loss then he.

How others treat me doesn't affect my outlook on this. I love what I do and feel good about the way I run my business. I think my father would be proud too. BigJim

Well said! Big Jim.I'm sure I'd be proud if I was your Dad. Sandy

Jim, I am sure that your father would be proud of you and tickled pink. When I read a post like yours it strengthens my faith and it also says to all of us what really fine , moral people there are in this business. Well Said sir.

God bless, Steve

I bought a used bow on this site a couple years ago. A very well known "short" bow. The bow was an 08. After shooting all summer with no problems, the bow let loose on my first shot in Colorado. I asked the builder to look at it and let me know if it had been altered in any way. If so me and the seller were going to have a discussion. The bowyer looked it over and determined it never should have left his shop. Even though I bought a 6 year old used bow, he still stood behind his work. I was shocked but happy.

You are on your own regarding used bows, however a custom bow that 3 yrs old should get should be compensated by the boyer. They are getting great prices for these bows and should stand behind them

Ron:3 yrs old should get should be compensated by the boyer

I respect your right to this opinion but you state it more as a fact. Sometimes a bow that has been dryfired but does not break is sold because the owner knows it was a hard dryfire and may or may not cause problems in the future. Or perhaps it came off the string during stringing and really twisted a limb hard.

The bowyer therefor warrants the bow to a single owner.

After a bow has passed hands there is no way to tell what it has been through. Especially if it has been sold a couple of times. It has nothing to do with the age or quality of the build.

God bless, Steve

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