From: newt
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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Experiment- shooting Easton axis traditional 400 with 3 fletch helical . I tried shooting arrows with cock feather resting against riser rather than out away from riser and found arrow flight as good if not better than the traditional cock feather out and away from riser. Very surprised - anyone reason why or have experience with this set-up?
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From: Sailor
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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If your arrows are the correct spine the arrow flexes around the riser (paradox) and does not touch so it doesn't make any difference how your feathers are oriented.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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It just means you are tuned pretty well, that's all, and your arrows are clearing as they should. Feather orientation shouldn't matter on a well tuned bow.
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From: PEARL DRUMS
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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It can change the spine slightly when you rotate a proven arrow 180 degrees. Its not the cock feather doing the changing, its the stiff side of the shaft changing the flight.
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From: Nordland
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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Sailor x2 I didn't notice any difference in either my bows.
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From: Skeets
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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Pearl Drums, how can rotating a carbon shaft (or aluminum for that matter) change the spine? As far as I know they should be uniform in spine no matter what. Wood is different. With cock feather in you may get better clearance passing the shelf. I have no difference except maybe a little more wear on the hen feather that's down when cock feather is out. Skeet
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From: Viper
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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S -
Actually, it can even with carbon/aluminum composite (like around $600/dozen) shafts, and some Olympic types actually do just that. How much of a difference it makes is very debatable, but if you're holding the 10 ring at 70M, everything matters.
I seriously doubt anyone here is at that level.
With wood arrows, it can be a little different, but if you're using wood, you're supposed to know how to align the grain, right? Radial spine testing just takes that a step further - still how many people are capable of seeing a difference?
As far as fletching in or out - shouldn't matter, but out is more traditional...
Viper out.
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From: Panzer
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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I used to shoot cock vane out, but now I don't even look anymore. I just nock the arrow and shoot, and I can't tell the difference.
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From: Jim Casto Jr
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO102jz8sFM
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From: Tom A
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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I have had multiple people tell me changing to cock feather in changes the spine. I tested it once and seen a difference in my arrow flight. I rubbed some lipstick on the edge of a feather and shot it a again and sure enough it left a mark on my side plate. I think people may be confusing the fletching contact with the sideplate as a spine change. This was with and 1/8 from center longbow. It may not be as noticeable with bows cut further to center.
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From: Roadrunner
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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I have one now that when I shoot cock feather out I get a kick off of the shelf, or at least that is what it looks like. If I turn the cock feather in they fly straight. I used to have to raise my nock point to get away from what I call "shelf kick", but I am trying to keep the nock point low on this one. By Low, I mean top of nock at 1/2". Sure open to any guidance.
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From: aromakr
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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The act of turning the cock feather in DOES NOT CHANGE THE SPINE, however if your shaft has a stiff side and as Viper said the spine will change by rotating the nock. That being said if the spine is correct for that setup, your not going to notice any change is arrow performance. Most bows even less than center bows will have a usable spine range of at least 10#, past center bows as much as 25# and the difference in spine in shaft rarely exceeds 1-2 pounds. The difference between a 50# spine and a 51# spine is only 10 thousands (.010) deflection, a 50# and 52# is (.020)deflection Bob
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From: Fred Arnold
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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I started using 2 fletch on most of my newer for me arrows and I don't notice a difference. Proper spine in tune with your bow and shooting style let's you get away with a lot.
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From: Skeets
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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Another question: Newt, are you shoot left helical or right? I shoot left helical and I shoot right handed. When the cock feather is toward the bow, the bottom feather passes through the channel formed by the shelf meeting the side plate (or it sure looks like it would). Skeet
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From: r-man
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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It does matter, what rest, from a elevated rest O yea its a very sensitive thing, from the shelf not as much or better. My personal experience anyway
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 27-Aug-15 |
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As others have stated, it don't really matter whether the cock feather is in or out if your rig is properly tuned.
However, I shoot cock fletch in.
Why?
Well, because I shoot vanes off the shelf, and vanes are not forgiving of any contact they make with the shelf, where as feathers will let you get away with a tiny bit of contact most of the time.
Since I know it's more forgiving (better clearance) with vanes, I just shoot feathers that way also.
Rick
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From: Will tell
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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I make a lot of wood arrows and the spine is stiffer on one side even going with the grain. I put the cock feather in on the stiffest side and shoot cock feather in.
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From: Skeets
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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Will, the initial force on your arrow is going to be to bend your arrow away from the bow? Are you saying you want the weak side to get the most force and therefore bend the most? Skeet
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From: Ron LaClair
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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Almost a lost knowledge is back in the early days before helical fletch people used straight or angled fletch and it didn't matter whether you used a left wing or a right wing feather.
Then when they started using a helical fletch the rule of thumb was, Right hander shoot Left wing feathers and Left hander shoot Right wing feathers. If you do the opposite the feathers will rotate into the bow causing a slight "kick" and sometimes a feather burn on your bow hand. This can vary from bow to bow and arrow spine.
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From: felipe
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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I like those spin vanes in Kevins video, they do their job right away.
I'm shooting blazer vanes off the shelf lately and they clear fine with cock feather in, with cock feather out one of the vanes bumps my hand sometimes.
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From: Yewbender
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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I shoot woodies which are tuned to my bows and can shoot cockfeather either way with no problems.
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From: Kelly
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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Agree that if your bow is tuned to shoot the normal cock feather out that turning that cock feather won't change the flight.
But, where most go wrong here is not truly understanding the "why" of shooting cock feather and how in will help you by additional bow tuning. Cock feather allows one to lower the mocking point. When one lowers the back end of an arrow it raises the front thus getting flatter trajectory.
Now in most cases this nock point lowering can be as much as 1/2" because there is no more bottom hen feather kick off of the shelf.
Jack Howard wrote about this method back in the 1960's, the reasons why one should use it and what results can be obtained and how to go about it. Since then I've shot nothing but cock feather in and will never change no matter the bow type. I have been able to shoot all types of bows with the absolute lowest nock points, most nearly with the bottom of my arrow shaft virtually level with the shelf-at the most 1/16 above.
Just turning the cock feather around isn't half of the story. Try it the full way by lowering your nock point as see just how far it can be lowered still achieving good arrow flight.
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From: Viper
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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Guys -
Just for the record, most people shooting top scores (and I'm talking 290+/300 indoors and 1250+/1440 FITA / Olympic) are shooting cock feather out. while most people who think cock feather in has advantages up the wassoo aren't in the same neighborhood score wise, much less the same ballpark.
Now, there will of course be "exceptions" like shooting off the shelf, shooting blind folded, and standing on one leg while whistling Dixie, (with obligatory video evidenced) but the bottom line is it just don't matter.
Oh, and as far as the nock-point nonsense... The nocking point position is determined by the dynamic center of force as the arrow is launched, that has to due with tiller, finger pressure distribution on the string and bow hand placement. If fletch is involved, the bow ain't tuned, since proper paradox carries the shaftment far enough away from the riser to negate any fletch contact except any fletch that's too high and too stiff.
Viper out.
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From: Jim
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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It should not matter if your arrow are spined correctly. If it helps you mentally, then so be it.
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From: felipe
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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I think most archers shoot cock feather out because that's the way it's always been done.
I've watched that video a few times and can't get oner how fast the spin vanes start turning the arrow. Do those (spin vanes) work on hunting arrows?
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From: roger
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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At the risk of being a Viper fanboy, again, my experiences with tuning and shooting mirror his advice, so I can't offer anything in addition. Tune your bow, folks.
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From: specklebellies
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Date: 28-Aug-15 |
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Not to be negative, but I never realized shooting a bow was so complicated till we got internet. Speck
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From: Skeets
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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specklebellies, shooting a bow is not that complicated. Sometimes we worry and try analyze everything. The arrow will go where you want it anyway even if things are not perfect. Just watch Stacy Groscup or Frank Addington. Their anchor point and form is a little different but they hit their target. Skeet
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From: GatorKountry
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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Here are two better videos of cock feather in and cock feather out with wood arrows that are tuned to the bow.
Cock feather out > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7fioUs-XL0
Cock feather in > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3fediz8qFI
I like cock feather in myself.
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From: Fisher
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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Thanks for posting the video. Excellent demonstration of the arrow's paradox.
EVEN BETTER - look at the form. His release and follow thru are rock solid. No movement whatsoever. The bow, string, sight, and arrow all flex. The archer is rock solid. The training along with mental and physical discipline and are all quite evident. Very impressive!
Best wishes.
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From: Bernie P.
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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I havent shot wood for years.With alum I tried cock feather on top after seeing Ken Becks TNT vid.This works best for me.I cant say it makes much if any difference with my Hunter recurve.But with the longbow I used to get cut by the feather.With the cock feather up shooting alum or carbon that never happens anymore.
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From: Oldbow
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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You need to rotate the nocks on any feathers fletched with most flechers or the bottom hen feather will dig into the arrow rest..When the old Allen Compounds came out the cables would tear the hen feathers up..Thats how we figured out that the nocks needed to be rotated.
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From: camodave
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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I very much prefer cock feather up
DDave
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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[[[ camodave said: "I very much prefer cock feather up. DDave" ]]]
I actually like the clearance that cock feather up gives me. but can't tell much difference between it & cock feather in.
I opt to use cock feather in, because I use a fletch on my nose as one point of my multi point anchor, and it places the upper outside hen fletch just right to get good head position.
Cock fletch out, or even up makes me have to cock my head over to far for my taste.
Rick
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From: Adam Howard
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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Cock feather up for me...
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From: Kelly
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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K Cummings;
Thank you for posting those pictures and that is exactly what Jack Howard discovered so long ago and why he and many other bowhunters(who usually shoot bows cut to center or out from center) shooting off the shelf/sight window. Target archery equipment utilizes elevated rest, cushing plungers, bow cut 1/4" to 1/2" past center and sometimes releases(which doesn't move the string off centerline like ones fingers do). If using this type of equipment then I agree there is little difference but when not I can see a huge difference with the same arrow when I start adjusting nock point downward for the lack of normal hen feather kick.
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From: WV Mountaineer
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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Shooting cock feather in stiffens the shaft slighty. I can post a video to prove that if need be, if I can figure out how to do that. And, it CAN make a huge difference in flight. Don't let anyone tell you different than that. God Bless
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From: WV Mountaineer
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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I should add by "stiffening the shaft", I mean it makes a weak arrow shoot stiffer.
I have 75-80 pound wood shafts. They are fishtailing a bit with broadheads when shooting cock feather out. When I turn the cock feather in, they shot to the mark and so far, I have shot my point on at 54 yards and it hits dead on and flys PERFECTLY like this. Not so with the cock feather out.
Whether it is changing the spine of the arrow I literally don't know. What I do know is it is working and, working very well. I've done the same thing with carbons too with 2 inch rayzor feathers.
What causes it is beyond me but, changing the spine is the terminology I used to describe it. I doubt that is the case. I just know it works. If the Lord blesses me with some fresh meat this year, Ill try to post pis to prove it. I know how to align shafts with the grain and, I am a tuning freak. but, I have made these arrows and fully intend to shoot them. They pass as well as the 80-85's do in flight quality and accuracy shooting cock feather out. I just don't have many 80-85's. These will work fine. God Bless
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From: RymanCat
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Date: 29-Aug-15 |
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Never liked any other way is cock out! Featherrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!
Tried up and down just don't like it.LOL
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From: JMartin
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Date: 30-Aug-15 |
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I look....sometimes.
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From: Rick Barbee
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Date: 30-Aug-15 |
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I always spine my carbon arrows, and turn the stiff side into the strike plate, therefore I notice no difference in dynamic spine of the shaft whether I have cock fletch in or out, but with cock fletch in I definitely notice more clearance forgiveness, especially when my loose/release are less than desired.
Rick
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From: Whittler
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Date: 30-Aug-15 |
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There is no right or wrong it's what works for you.
With my Jo-Jan right wing I shoot cock feather in. If I shoot cock feather out my bottom hen feather just catches the outside edge of my shelf material. It will kick the arrow up and to the left a little just about every time. So I shoot cock feather in with right wing feathers.
If I use left wing feathers with a different jig I get great flight with cock feather out.
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From: GatorKountry
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Date: 31-Aug-15 |
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You can find about 100+ more videos of slow motion arrow flight from the same archer here > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmVczwYUfq6sQQjCmKd2q5Q/videos
He has one video with "cock feather in" shooting a Falcon Longbow with a cut to center riser here > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGbIDMQ9S-Q
Which I think says it all; you can get the nocking point/arrow down to almost level/perpendicular with the arrow shelf in order to get the full power stroke through the center of the arrow.
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