Who made the older Browning bows? George, anyone? Randy

Gordon made them for awhile as did Harry Drake. Designed would be a better word probably.

They were made by Browning at the site of the Gordon Plastics facility in San Diego. That was from around 1964 on. The last year they built the most popular models like the Explorer,Wasp and Nomad Stalker was 1975. Gordon built some early models of Browning designs like the Safari that were not labelled. I've not seen any proof that Harry Drake was involved until much later in the 70's with compound design.

It was a Browning facility as Gordon did not make bows after Browning took over. The use of tip wedges in some models like the Nomad would be suggestive of Drake's influence but they were quite common in other bows as well.

I thought I seen on here that Bob Lee made some of them but I'm not sure.

They were made at the Gordon factory in California. As for Drake's influence, it is obvious is you are attentive to the history of Drake bows and later Browning. You only need to look at the belly overlays on the Drake target models, and then the Browning Challenge. I don't need to have someone come back from the dead and verify Drake's influence, it is obvious to the discerning archer. The first Browning Catalog was 1963....i had one of those catalogs, and may still have it in my "mess" somewhere.

Bob Lee didn't have anything to do with Browning bows, unless it would have been after Browning was sold in the late 70's or early 80's. There is speculation, and from me as well, that Bob Lee made limbs for Carroll's and some other bows of the day. Bob Lee made bows for Colt Firearms prior to Pearson taking that over.

This is an early browning but do not remember the model. This one was 66" 54#. Green glass on the back and ivory white on the belly. One time Stout posted an add that looked like it. I remember it had a bunch of laminations and the the tipe wedge as well. I have also seenn other bows just like it but not the browning logo.

I agree with George to the extentthat Drake "influenced" the designs as the bows produced in San Diego by various manufacturers shared common traits and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And Harry Drake's bows were cutting edge. But as to whether Drake was actively involved in the design of Browning's early recurves I have seen no definitive proof and this topic had been the subject of much debate on this wall. Gordon made excellent bows as did Dick Green, Joe Fries, White etc. They all share common design features that Browning used besides their own unique recurve. Ernie Root used tip wedges as well so I think bowyer's were looking over each other's shoulder's.

The transition bows between Gordon and Browning said Deluxe Composite Bow, and it was on a decal, so many didn't last over the years.

Here's the belly of a Drake target bow.

The belly of a Browning target bow.

Drake sold his company...other than flight bows...to Gordon, so he likely wouldn't have been active with the, except in advisory capacity. What I'm saying is his "influence" can't be ignored, and for good reason. Most bows today are copies of yesterday's bows; whether it's direct or indirect, and that is how the industry grew. It's how most industries grow. You copy what works....maybe tweak it a bit, but it's how manufacturing worked, and still does (see cell phone technology).

We're on the same page George...no one would have ignored Harry Drake's significant design developments with his flight shooting bows.

KyPhil, the bow you pictured is a Browning Apollo as is the one pictured. Very good shooting bows as is the Safari II, which is 60". Both of these Browning bows have identical shaped handles although different lengths. IMO they very much resemble the late Drake Hunter Flights. They also have multiple laminations in the limbs and those limb tip wedges, both of which Harry Drake had in many of his bows.

Another picture of my Apollo.

In 1964, Drake sold his name and bow line to Bob Williams of Seattle Archery. Mart Mathew, who was the bowyer for Drake for many years went to work with Seattle archery at that time. Harry Drake told me then that all he wanted to do was to "make flight bows" (he was obsessive about flight shooting). Seattle Archery made Drake bows for 3 or 4 years more, and then they were discontinued. The Gordon brothers hired Drake for consulting work because of his great reputation in flight shooting, but Gordon had a fine head bowyer, Jack Bice, who was more responsible in designing their bows than Drake. I hope this clears up the "Drake Mystery." Fred

So if I understand this correctly, George is saying that Frisky's Hunter Flight bow was copied from a Browning...

I believe that the Browning Explorer1 was built in Morgan Utah in 1974. I have one that I bought from a man in Morgan a few years back on Ebay for a sum of 350.00. It was advertised as being a new in box 1974 Explorer 1. It was and it came with a canvas bow bag and string still sealed in wrapper and original bill of sales, He just forgot to tell me it was a second and was sold to an employe in the spray booth Kelly Fliton according to the receit and box that came with it. It has Morgan Utah on the bow written in gold. The instruction book and registration card came with it and have Rout 1, Morgan Utah 84050 as an address.It is the best looking bow I have except for the light spots and sm dent in upper limb. They sure did know how to make some pretty bows back then.

Thank You Fred.

The Morgan, Utah connection is there because that was where Browning's Corporate headquarters was located. I don't believe they ever built any bows there, but I could be wrong.

Has anyone ever contacted Browning to see what they say on the subject?

Thanks for the clarification Fred...that type of first hand information is priceless.

Browning Explorers were made starting in the mid to late sixties,at first they had the safari riser,then switched to the longer type riser.The Explorer 1 is the best performing short bow that I have ever shot,killed several nice Deer with it.The old Brownings are one of few classics that you can use fast-flight strings with,very well made bows.

My Hunter-Flite was not a Browning copy. The Brownings are Hunter-Flite copies. We still need info on Drake's association with Browning. I know he designed more than just their compounds. He built a take down recurve and patented it with them.

Joe

harry worked for browning for a number of years. they were still sending him checks when he died. he was a permanent fixture there as a consultant.

I love thease threads. Thanks for your accurate, first hand info, as always Mr Hatfield :)

Wait, Fred...

Most of these comments are as accurate as we know, but I remain confused on a detail. Did Fasco make some of the Drakes for Harry?

Rick

PS.

Falcon, No one at Browning now was there then and can provide specifics. Property tax records showed that Browning used the old Gordon bldg. under the firearms division well into the 1980s.

And PPS, no you can't have my Explorer 56". That one goes to the grave with me. They were built BOTH in San Diego and Morgan. The more fancy risers, most if not all, were Utah built. The solid risers were earlier San Diego builds as the model morphed from the Safari.

I have a 1968 Expl 1 that is one I would not sell also They were way ahead of their time, am I to understand that FF strings are safe on my Brownings?

Rick, FASCO only started making Drake bows in 1964 AFTER Drake sold out to Seattle Archery (Mart Mathew, Drake's bowyer, came to work at FASCO then. The FASCO made Drakes were generally better finished).

"The FASCO made Drakes were generally better finished)."

Yes, but inferior to the Holy Grail Drake that Mart made.

Joe

When did Harry Drake's consulting work begin Larry? Joe's post and reference to the take down reminded me about the folding recurve that Browning built that I think Mr. Drake designed. I'm also pleased to say that I'm the new owner of an Apollo that came up recently on eBay...two tone rosewood and bubinga riser...unique!

Yep. I meant the Browning Backpacker.

Joe

Pdiddily,bso you are the one I was bidding against. Think that is zebrawood couple with Rosewood on that Apollo.

That's the one Joe!

I agree with another poster that the really early Browning''s and transition Gordon's sure looked "Drakey!"

I want to learn more about what Harry Drake was up to from 1964 to 1974 as it relates to Browning.

Now I'm going to go out behind my camp up here in Northern Ontario and shoot my '66 Explorer!!

Life is good!

Geez Kelly...I always have mixed emotions when I find out I outbid a fellow LW, and one who's been especially helpful to boot. If it's not my cup of tea I'll contact you first! Did not have a clear enough pic to see the second wood type...

I have three San Diego Bows that were all made prior to 1960, all made by different makers and ALL look like they were made by the same guy.

Firedrake Champion Custom by Abernethy Custom Bow Co. Starfire

All three are identical in shape All three have mutiple layers of micarta for tips All three have stamped stats in the same location All three have their maker sticker in the same location All three have similar lamination's in the risers and limbs

Does this mean they all were influenced by each other, or the other two by Harry? Or Harry by one of the others? Who knows, but similarities don't prove anything.

I hear you Jim...you don't have to know much about bows to recognize a 50's San Diego recurve...Drake, Fries (Dana),Dick Green, Gordon and the three you mentioned are uncannily similar. In many ways the Brownings really were cutting edge designs that worked and were not typical of other recurve. No real dogs and some really hot bows that were easy on the eyes to boot!

jaz5833 you mentioned stamped stats on these bows. Is this number the stats on this drake? It is a 66" inch bow and a shop weighed it for me and told me 28#. Used a really old fish scale setup so could have been off. The 6627 on this bow makes sense now. I thought it was the serial #. Randy

Those 6s look like 8s to me.

Joe

To my knowledge there is no hidden meaning to those numbers. Just serial numbers.

My father in law just handed this one down to my son. 46# Browning Wasp

Brought this back up to show an ad from 1974, showing a Browning takedown that per the ad was designed by Harry Drake. So it seems Harry was still in contact with Browning in 74 in more than a passing way.

ttt

Same beautiful scalloped overlays on a Wing Presentation

Here is an early Colt Firearm Mfg. Targetsman

An older member of the San Diego Archers that I speak with one a regular basis worked in the Browning facility here in San Diego. According to him, the Gordon facility was moved to the southern portion of San Diego called Brown Field.

I have another friend here in San Diego that used to work for Browning in Utah while Harry Drake was there. When I asked about the Drake/Browning/San Diego thing he said that he never heard anything about Drake having ties to San Diego in regards to Browning.

He went on to say, that doesn't HD didn't, he just never heard anyone in Utah talk about it.

I too remember a posting by Bowdoc, in which he said that during a conversation with Bob Lee at some big show, Bob told him that Wing had "made a ton of bows for Browning," or words to that effect.

For whatever reasons, maybe the quiver bushings on the back of the upper and lower limbs, the post-1974 Browning Explorers and Furys remind me a whole lot of the AMF/Wing bows of that era--Chapparal, T-Bird, RW Slimline etc.... so Bowdoc's assertion seemed plausible to me.

There are likely lots of surprises regarding bow building if we just knew that information for sure. By the way, Hoyt also used those quiver bushings on their Pro Hunter model in the 70's.

Crookedstix and I have had the conversation a few times about the post 1973 Brownings being made by Wing...I initially was not buying in but once I assembled a bunch of models from both companies and examined and compared them there seems to be some merit.

Around 1973 the quality on Brownings really changed. Grips were fatter, bushings were out of line, finish was not great etc. The comparison between the 1972 Cobra that I own and a 1975 Cobra that I sold was very dramatic. Limbs were not the same, tips and grip were better on the earlier model etc..

Same with a 1972 and a 1975 Explorer 1. Tips, lams limbs and finish is very different.

The tips in the later bows look more like later Wings and less like Brownings.

Bowdoc's comments are telling.

Speaking of Don, I have not heard of him in a while...can anyone fill me in?

As to nobody hearing of Drake at plant...it is not UNCOMMON for consultants to work with design engineers and marketing dept....and then the specs are pushed down to the workers. They rarely sit there and invite them to the design meetings or give them the legwork behind the design. A line worker not knowing who is involved in design is not surprising...

you can look at some of the characteristics that nobody else was doing and see the Drake influence whether direct or not.

I have a couple 1966 Brownings and later. A early Safari or Explorer is about one of the finest shooting bows in my opinion you can find on the vintage market.

keep em sharp,

ron herman

i read the whole thread,, its like a book:)

I'm reviving this older thread to correct a few things contained therein.

Q: Did Gordon Plastics Inc. manufacture Browning recurve bows?

A: No. Browning Arms purchased the bow making facilities of Gordon Plastics Inc. in August of 1963 and moved it to a southern portion of San Diego County called Brown Field.

SOURCE: San Diego Union (San Diego, California) • January 17, 1965 • Page 102

Q: Did Harry Drake influence the designs of either Gordon Plastics Inc., or Browning?

A: Former National Indoor Champion Jerry Amster, was an employee of Gordon Plastics before and during the sale to Browning. Having first hand involvement with the sale of Gordon's "Royal Line" manufacturing facility to Browning Arms AND having close personal relationships with all the players, including Jack Bice who moved from head bowyer of Gordon Plastics to head bowyer of Browning with the sale; I take his word that Harry Drake did not have any design influence in the Browning Recurves.

SOURCE: Jerry Amster

On the first question above. Technically, Gordon Plastics did manufacture at least one Browning recurve. Originally, Browning invited bow manufacturers to submit their products in consideration for a contract to build for Browning. Jerry Amster pitched the idea to the brothers Gordon that they should submit a Browning recurve, not a Gordon recurve. They mocked up a "Royal Line" recurve to become a "Browning recurve", and it worked. However, upon Browning's first meeting with the Gordon's, it was decided that Browning would purchase the bow making facilities of Gordon Plastics, including the employees involved with the manufacturing process, and produce the bows themselves. The rest is history shall we say.

I discovered this a few moments after hitting submit above.

From Jerry Amster: Let me think on this . First of all, there was no "retooling " when Gordon was making bows for Browning . The only change was the decal ! After Ed Dumke( The Brownings bro in law) made the deal to have Gordon make bows (Of Jack Bice and my design) the bows were made for awhile on Banks street as I recall. "Browning " production started a few months later.

FROM the BIO of Jerry Amster:

CHAPTER 10: THE GORDON/BROWNING DEAL It was in the late 1950’s or 1960. I was at the weekly meeting with Don, Dave, and George Gordon on Banks Street in San Diego. My friend and shooting buddy, Jack Bice, sat in as he and I always collaborated on new bow design. Jack was the master boyer and he made the bows shoot . . . I made them sell! You may recall that when I worked for Frank Eicholtz I came up with the idea of using rosewood in bow risers for “Fasco” bows. As we sat at Don’s desk, the mailman delivered the mail. Don opened a letter from John Val Browning, the president of Browning Fire Arms. “Ha!” Don exclaimed. “Browning is considering adding archery to their sporting goods line. They are asking us to send two or three of our bows for consideration. Fat chance Gordon would have against Bear, Hoyt, Ben Pearson or Wing!” I had an epiphany!! “Don . . . let’s send them BROWNING BOWS! George and Dave laughed. Don raised an eyebrow. “There is no such thing. What do you have in mind?” They’ll be here in a week!” I said. “I’ll design them and Jack will build them. OK?” On the way home that night, I stopped at the largest gun dealer in San Diego. I handled a Browning shotgun and a new target pistol Browning just came out with. It had a wonderful “pistol grip.” (Our new bows could have that!) I noted the use of gunstock walnut. (Our new bows could have that!) The finish was soft and “hand rubbed.” (Yep . . . that’s the “Browning Look.”) I picked up a catalogue and noted the Buck Deer logo and the name “Browning” in gold and black. (We can do that!) We at Gordon had three of the best shooting bows I ever shot. We just have to make them look BROWNING. In the morning I called Roy Weatherby, the finest gun manufacturer in the USA. Roy gave the name of “Nils”, the old German that did Roy’s checkering and inlay. I spoke to Don Gordon and got the go-ahead to have Nils come to San Diego and checker the bows and inlay the deer head on the riser(s) of the two top bows we were sending to Browning. I had Jack use black and gray glass on the target bow and light and dark green on the hunting bow. After Nils (at an incredible $100.00 per day plus expenses . . .Don almost flipped!) checkered the top two bows and inlayed the deer head in ivory and ebony, Jack Bice hand rubbed the urethane to a satin finish. I called the local art supply store and got the name of a lettering artist, a teacher at San Diego State. Don gave her the three bows and the Browning catalogue to take home to work. Monday morning . . .three BROWNING BOWS were delivered to the Quonset Hut on Banks Street! They said Browning . . . and they looked like BROWNING! Dave Gordon shipped them that day. Now we had to wait! Two weeks went by, then a letter from Browning. Don called me at The Archers Den with the news. Ed Dumke, John Val Browning’s brother-in-law and administrator of Browning Fire Arms, will be in San Diego in three days to talk of Gordon manufacturing BROWNING BOWS! That day we sat in the tiny office, with furniture dusted (first time ever!) and waited. Across the street a Yellow Cab pulled up. Out steps a fella with a black top coat over his arm, a black suit, white shirt, and a brief case! “Here comes BROWNING!” I exclaimed. (No one in San Diego dressed like that!) The rest is history. They loved the bows we sent. Ed D told us later, “Everyone in the office kept picking up the “Browning bows.” No one picked up the others. John Val and Bruce Browning met with us the next week. They flew me to Chicago with Ed Dumke (Claradon Hill, Ill.) to look at “American Archery” as an arrow manufacturer. I told Ed it would be easy to set up arrow production in San Diego with cheaper labor. They did. The Gordon Bros., as an unexpected bonus, gave me their share of The Archers Den. I will never forget them. The kindest men I have ever known.

Good research job. Very good history lesson. Thanks.

Thanks for the research and history. TLM

Between Fred Anderson and Jerry Amster, we've been incredibly lucky to grab a lot of the history of San Diego bowmaking back from the very edge of being lost forever. Big thanks to both of them, and to Jim for his efforts as well. And to those few guys who have a rosewood Browning with the number "2" at the start of the serial number...congratulations, that's a true Gordon Browning!

Thanks for posting that Jim...there's nothing like an article written at the time to nail things down!

As you know, we share a fascination with the history of these beautiful creations of wood and glass and you have certainly performed a great deal of valuable research to clarify the history of Browning and San Diego bows in general.

I agree with you and Kerry that we're very fortunate that Jerry and Fred showed up to grab the tiller on the boat and steer us back on course.

Larry has done the same for filling in the blanks on Howatts and Larry Vienneau has to be recognized for his work on Root/ Shakespeare history.

I find the history almost as fascinating as shooting tin arrows from my old bows...almost, but not quite!

Peter

Thank for posting -- great story about the brilliant thinking behind marketing Gordon bows to Browning. Would be interested to know how and when Harry Drake got involved.

Oops--all I needed to do was read up the thread a ways...sorry.

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