Am I correct in that the self-bow Class is a true self bow, Not Laminated bow of all natural material which has been called the Primitive Class in the pasted ? Self-bow meaning SELF BACKED with nothing that would enhance performance or longevity ? Also must shoot Wood or Cain arrows, Is this correct and if so, Great but where will the laminated bow fall in /such as Bamboo /sinew/rawhide/board backed [ Traditional long bow I suspect ] ? Just want to be sure before I really start promoting the self- bow Class. This make all the sense in the world to me but not sure what thought others have. Pappy This is a email I sent the IBO for clarification on the self-bow Class and This is great news,so you self bow folks come on out and lets really get this Class going. Pappy

Pappy I don't want to start a quarrel on what constitutes a selfbow. But I have phenolic tips on lots of my bows . I have ask Levy Bryant about the phenolic tips and he has approved them as being legal . I don't see how horn versus phenolic could enhance the performance of the bow. The rest is spot on as I see it. I also don't care if we are lumped together with the bamboo or other wise backed bows if that's what it takes to fill the field. The selfbows can hold there on against these bows in my opinion . Hopefully we can come together on this and have thirty - forty primitive bows competing in a class that truly represents trad archery. Arvin

Pappy, I have wondered the same thing. Most shoots I have been to have so few all wood bows that they leave it up to the archer what class to put his bow in, most put all wood bows in self bow class.

I tend to think self bow should be in its own class or change the class to all wood bows.

You are correct. No backing that enhances performance. I believe that was changed last year.

How about a class of bows made from a stave, no splicing, no tips other than wood, no leather on the grip and no shelf cut in. The string? Don't know.

"No backing that enhances performance." That should open up new dialog. So then my 1940's old lemonwood should be okay since it's backed with clarified calfskin (rawhide). But, a sinew backed bow of the same era would not be, since sinew does affect performance. Oh dear....who gonna do dat?

Yes George that bow is a self bow in my opinion . Also a sinew backed bow is a selfbow in my opinion. I would rather open this up somewhat in that respect so we can get a major part of our primitive family to have fun competing at a world class level. There is a lot of the primitive family uninterested in competing . Nothing wrong with that either . Back to my original post. Let's not make this a quarrel over the bow! Let's have fun with this and meet some new friends in the sport. Use this opportunity to see other peoples bows and how they perform in front of some really fine shooters. This would not be me by the way.lol But I have fun and enjoy Pappys venue and watching the other trad archers of all kinds compete . This is worth the trip just to see Pappys bow shop. Arvin

Rawhide does affect Longevity though. Tip overlays and splices in the handle are OK.Steve I hear ya but if you want to put a bow where it is closer to apples to apples then backed bows should be in the Traditional Long bow Class Most don't have enough shooters to have a class to Shifting Shadow I assume you are trying to be funny ,or maybe trying to start something,please don't do that on this thread,I am very serious about the self bow. Pappy

Pappy,

My guess is those bows would fall into the regular longbow class.

I guess Ishi would be excluded if he were alive today with his bow.

I doubt it. He might be able to win with a atltlatal .

I'd like to see a self bow class and another one for organically backed or laminated materials. A lot of primitive bow builders have gotten away from it partially because there was no class for them. For several years I shot my short osage, locust, hop hornbeam,dogwood, or hickory bow against the 21st Century and other deflex, reflex longbows. I believe there would be enough of each to support a class for them, at least on the national level.

I'll support whatever Pappy wants to do. He's as close to this topic as anyone I know.

Pappy, it may have been the way I wrote it. I am in favor of keep the self bow in its own class. I was just telling of my own experience at shoots I have attended. In flight shooting it is very clear how a self bow is interpted. Spliced handles ok, cut in shelf ok, natural material nock overlays not to exceed 2" ok. Snake skins have not been approved as a finish rather than a backing but most feel they should be approved as a self bow. A glued on handle section is also approved for self bows.

I agree that backed bows should be in a class with trad long bows or recurves.

I was just saying that a lot of the local shoots don't know how to deal with it so they tend to lump all wood bows into one class.

I copy and pasted this from the American Archery rule book.

D. PRIMITIVE SELF BOW i) Primitive SELF Bows are totally constructed from a single, non-laminated natural material, plant, or animal. ii) Spliced billets are accepted. iii) Wooden handle built-up blocks may be added, providing the built up portion of the handle does not bend or additional blocks act as an additional laminate in the working/bending areas of the bow limbs. iv) The bow handle may be wrapped with leather or other natural materials. v) A bow tip overlay may be added to the back only, not to exceed 2 inches (5.1 cm) in length. vi) Bow draw weights are as follows: • 35 lbs. (15.9 kg) – Youth Women and Men only • 50 lbs. (22.7 kg) – Women, Men, and Youth • Unlimited – Women, Men, and Youth vii) RELEASE - Leather glove, finger tab or bare fingers only. viii) ARROW REST - An arrow shelf cut out or non-laminated side rest is the only arrow rest allowed. The arrow rest may be covered with natural materials only. An elevated or collapsible arrow rest is not allowed.

Pappy, you have to ask them what they mean when they say self-bow. For many a self-bow, is a bow with no fiberglass. So all laminated bows of wood are considered self-bows. There is a lot of confusion out there. Jawge

Pappy, I shot in the first IBO Trad. World shoot and shot in the primitive class with my self bow. I lost to a guy shooting a bamboo backed Ipe bow and took 2nd place. Personally I felt that he had a advantage over me using his backed bow.

For someone who is interested in self bows but knows next to nothing about them, can someone explain what advantage or disadvantage the rules present?

Thanks.

Pappy, I was neither trying to be funny or start something. There are more variables in this class than any other trad one. Since all these variables exist, it makes sense to go back to the basics: no backing, no splicing, no foreign tips, etc.

I believe the main problem is sheer numbers of shooters at any given event. If you try to break separate equipment into to many classes there are not enough shooters at any given shoot around the country to support all the classes. I made my 1st Osage "selfbow" in January 2012, took it to my local club I think in March. Everyone looked at me like I had gone crazy. Our club averaged about 20 trad shooters total, mostly recurves. I took 1st and the whole club still remembers that. Now it has started a resurgence of selfbows in my area. I am not bragging by any means because I consider myself to be only an average archer. The point I am trying to make is I do not consider my bow to be at a disadvantage to any other trad bow, whether recurve, laminated Longbow, or whatever selfbow you want to throw into the classification. My saying is "it ain't the equipment as much as the Indian behind it". Learn how to shoot what "you" want to shoot and shoot your own game. Too much division will kill the sport of Trad Archery which we almost lost once to the compound. I say loosen up the class/terminology and come have fun/compete, whatever bakes your cake. We need to grow our numbers not separate the ones we have.

Amen Bentstick 54,

I agree and meant nothing except it is always like pulling teeth to start or keep everyone happy with a new class, I am a self bow guy and sometimes it is hard to explain what is meant by self bow/I have always considered it to be air backed, that is about it. I agree with you Bentstick and have never felt hindered by what I shoot/I use to have to shoot against anything without sights and that included wheels, they called it bare bow back then,but if you are going to have Classic then selfbow should be one of them in an event like this. If it is a smaller event then you have to use common sinse but the World should be able to have something to fit all.Steve Your explanation was just what I think also but it plainly says no laminations. I also agree their should be a class for all natural bows and if the numbers are there it will happen but for now I still believe they are closer to there Longbow cousins that to a selfbow. Yall are also correct in the thoughts that you can have to many Classis but they have RU for recurves with plungers and high rest/Modern longbow/they have vintage bows so why not a true self bow. Jawges that is so true, but not sure how to change folks minds, like the comment about Ishi, it always seems to go there, and the answer is no he would be in the Long Bow Class. LOL. Wished I could put a wink and smiley face because believe me I am not mad or trying to start trouble ,was just happy they finely decided to have a self bow Class as in prefect as it may be. Pappy

Guys I just need a green light or a red light. Is a bow like this legal to shoot in the IBO trad world. There are about 6-8 of these headed up 1000-1200 miles to compete in the selfbow ,primitive , slow clunky bow class. What ever we want to call it. These bows have phenolic on the tips. I can call my guys and gals and tell them not to go and expect to shoot in the selfbow - primitive class. They may choose to shoot their bows in longbow or shoot another bow or stay home. But we should at least save them the trip if need be. Arvin

Well sure,tip overlays are fine. Pappy

I take the post above as a green light. We will look forward to seeing everyone in July thanks pappy Arvin.

For guys that are thinking about going but aren't sure about the Compitition Part of the worlds, I can promise there are tons of things to do aside from the World Championship part. And in my opinion, the selfbow guys are a tighter Knit group. Pappy and the guys will have as good a course as you will ever shoot Ready for us! Plus you could be the new world champion! The guy that won last Year just got lucky!

Its got food color on its back what do u think lol

I guess if an organization where to have a self-bow class might as well truly have self-bows in the class.

To me a self-bow is one piece of wood or 2 spliced at the handle. Overlays are allowed. Any string is allowed.

Jawge

That is the way I see it also Jawges . Pappy

Someone will always say there is no difference...it's the archer. Well that's true if everyone is playing on a level field. There is a difference; mass on a recurve changes things, enabling archers to have a more dead bow at release. It can mean quite a lot on a 3D or field range. Been there done that.

People like to compete against like designs, and there is nothing wrong with that. You likely won't lose anyone, just gain another aspect where some folks will compete. Yeah, sometimes you will beat other guys with your selfbow, and them shooting recurves. That usually means they weren't all that good, or at least you were a lot better than they were to start with.

Selfbows are great bows and should have a class of their own. How one does that is up to the club, I suppose.

George, I agree that there is a definite difference between selfbows, recurves, and longbows with modern materials. I definitely think selfbows need and deserve their own class. I just think that until the number of shooters interested in shooting "selfbows" grows to warrant a break down of selfbow equipment into varying classes, it will be hard to meet everyone's definition of a selfbow. Air-backed, bamboo backed, sinew backed, rawhide backed,etc., where do you draw the line. Someone is always going to have an edge. You will never make everyone happy, and the more competitive they are the harder it is to "keep a level playing field". Maybe have a air backed primitive selfbow class, and a "composite" selfbow class that takes in any backed bows. Just throwing out ideas to grow this faction of the sport.

Pappy. Don't envy your position. Folks have always needed a definitive source to make these determinations. Golf has that. At a major event the governing body would be represented and make on the spot decisions. All you can do is make your decisions, case by case as the written rule is stated, keeping in mind if someone is gaining an unfair advantage with equipment or gadgetry. You should have some official assistance in these matters by the organization for the "world" event. I think this is the most hated part of a shoot organizers job, and it ain't even his job. If it is like it was in the early 90s, the top shooters in a class knew more about the rules than me and were more likely to be attempting to gain an advantage. This made things difficult. With all the changes going on with the different tech stuff for the wheel bows it was about impossible to police.

River Cain/Tonkin Cain/Japanese Cain/Switch Cain and probably others,all good arrow material. Bentstick you are right on numbers and most events but at the IBO Traditional world,at least when it was at Twin Oaks we had enough numbers and at the TN.Classic almost 1/3 of the shooters were shooting selfbows, we tend to draw them for some reason.We will live with the rules the way they are written this year and if they need tweaking we can do that for the next year.If all goes good and everyone is happy We plan on holding this event for 2 years at least. Pappy

Pappy I would like to see the World trad shoot to be held at Twin Oaks as long as possible. Maybe to the point of a tradition like the Classic has become. Yes air backed means selfbow for sure. I was just saying that 7 shooters at a world championship is not the competition we want. We need to fell the field. I f that means some sinue backed or snake skin on the bow let's have the numbers to make it world competition . The simple answer is if the people that love thier primitive bows and thier value not in monies but as the tradition show up and have fun and support the shoot , the IBO , and and all that goes with it. So I hope to see everyone on this thread there. I want to meet a lot of you guys. Most of us once we meet find out the guy writing on the Internet is not what we expected to be personality wise. Well sometimes words don't descibe ones self so to speak. Arvin

I agree Arvin and I feel pretty sure the numbers will be way up in this Class this year, as far as making it a Tradition, we will see, we have been ask that before but to be honest it is a ton of work and after the Classic it just takes up the whole spring and early summer to pull these 2 events off in the manner we want them to be done. With the limited members we have one thing we don't want to do is burn out the core group and that could happen if we carry it on for to long without a break. We done it 3 years last time and then took a 2 year break, we will see how it goes this time. Thanks for the confidence in us and the support we get. It is much appreciated. Pappy

Kenny that looks like a hippy from Austin tie dyed that bow. Lol Now you can bring it and kick my tail end with it. Lol. Arvin

Yep bring it ,love to see it , a blast from the past . Pappy

Bringing my AW selfbow , and only going to shoot the Hunter Challenge ,just for fun,hope you guys cut me a little slack. lol Cal

Any wooden bow with structural functioning backing is not a "self" bow. A sinew backed bow is definitely primitive, but NOT a selfbow. A multi-laminated all wood bow is neither primitive nor a self bow. A self bow is a single or spliced griped stave bow. Period. It's always been this way...at least until the advent of the internet and the massive influx of instant ex-spurts ;-)

I agree Iktomi . Arvin

I'll have her there Arv don't know bout any tail kickin though , does kinda look tie dyed don't it

iktomi,you are correct ,look at the new rules we have been talking about, that is what it says. Look forward to seeing it bishotuwa. Calvin we will cut you some slack as if you need some. Pappy

LoL Trust me I will need some, a couple of the other guys may take that walk with us through the course. It will be a change of pace for us and should be fun. Just Sayin Cal

O it will be fun I can assure you of that. See ya in a couple of Months. Pappy

Hi ,I am new to this forum so be gentle.The conversation seams to be splitting hairs. Traditional archers unite to take back our sport from the wheel and pulley Guys. Bickering over minutia is egocentric. I personally don't care if the guy shooting next to me is shooting a PVC pipe. If a primitive person would recognize It as a bow and be able to use it with out instruction.Here is to the garage bow builder .These "archers" taking 60 yard shots with their bow guns sickens me . My first bow kill. Come on man!They should have separate seasons than traditional archers or thrown in with gun hunters. I have no issues with compound bow guys but it's obvious when you watch the TV.these guys have thrown out the rule book on ethics and what constitutes a bow hunt. They sell hi tec products and for me that is not the archery I grew up with and I refuse to call it archery so self bow ,recurve,ILF guys rejoice In your satisfaction of hard work and dedication at the bench and at at the target line You are hunting the hard way

I will be gentle Wall hanger, just not sure what your statement has to do with the Selfbow class in a tournament situation. I agree we need to stick together ,and I don't watch the shows you are talking about on the tube for that very reason. Pappy

"Traditional archers unite to take back our sport from the wheel and pulley.

I shoot longbows and recurves because I enjoy them, not because I hate something else.

With ya JRW,don't really care what anyone else shoots. Pappy

So my solid Osage Orange stave bow with a linen backing is not considered a self-bow? And if I have a all wood no fiberglass ASL (aka Dave Miller) I would have to compete with individuals who are shooting a carbon 21st Century? I can see that an individual shooting a stave bow would be at a disadvantage when shooting against someone with a Split Bamboo non-fiberglass bow. It would also be the same disadvantage for that non-fiberglass Split Bamboo to compete against a carbon 21st Century. Geez, I have a headache.

I do not see the discussion of rules in a rule based game as infighting and detrimental to archery. This is not the same as hunting seasons and equipment used. When our stuff hits the public is where we lose due to infighting. A lot of state game departments use bowhunting as a tool and that is the best we can hope for. How we present and utilize that tool is up to us. Get out there and hunt and be an ambassador for archery. That is my goal.

I have been away from Archery for a long time. I live in the Austin Texas area. Where are the archery shoots at these days. I used to go to Austin archery 3 D and the hill country 3D shoot. Could you give me any dates and times of shoots in central texas. Thank you in advance, Tommy

Am I on the Leatherwall? I posted and so far everyone's agreeing with me! ;-)

I thought IBO made the definitions of the bows in any class. And I wish we could get enough women self bow shooters for a class. :(

Spoon, The IBO Mid America was just in Austin last month ! get on the Texas Bow Hunter site you will find a lot of stuff going on in TX.

Have one on the way. It's got to be ok for her to shoot with the men. Right ? Arvin

I am guessing she can Arvin, I think you can always move up a class but of course she will shoot from the same stake as the men but I think that is the same as the women/Youth. I will check. Like has been said, can't ever please everyone. Backed bows will be in the Traditional long bow class, wood/Cain arrows if that helps Rick. Julia I hope we can also, just need more to show up this year / show some interest and I will see personally try and get that added for next year.You know I love selfbows and will always go to bat for them. Pappy

Some of your smaller clubs have never even seen a self bow. In my local club myself and one other guy were the only ones that ever shot self bows and the other guy usually used a glass bow. They figured anthing without fiberglass was a self bow. A clear easy to understand interpetation would be a good thing. I am not sure if clubs get information his sent to them or not. I never was on the business end of things.

Back up

Terry Harris

Back up there.

Terry Harris

River cane has been used for arrows for probably millennia.

Around here we have a primitive class which is the catch all for any bow without fiberglass.

In a highly competitive event, such as one run by the IBO, my guess is if there is a primitive even very few bows will be self-bows. The conception by many, rightly or wrongly, is that that they just don't shoot as composite bows.

I've shot only self-bows for many hears and shot well enough with them.

Jawge

Static recurves ok

Long as it's all wood with no backing . Pappy

Back up, good info

Terry Harris

We also have in the planning stage to have a shoot down with the top 10 or maybe 16 depending on the numbers in the class from the Hunter challenge course Saturday evening in the same place the Three Rivers shoot down takes place. C&D archery will sponsor the shoot down with $250.00 cash divided between the top 3.We are working to finalize the format and will have that info up as soon as it is finished. Should be exciting to watch.Finally something special for the self bow folks. Pappy

We think the number will be the top 12 shooters for the first round of the Hunter Challenge course. Pay out 1st $125.00/2nd $75.00 /3rd $50.00. More details as it gets closer. Pappy

Cool only if I could get in the top 12. Lol Arvin

A bow with no performance enhancing backing. You can have tip overlays. That does not enhance performance. A snake skin etc. doesn't enhance either so as long as it's for beauty you're good to go. Jimmy

It seems like we're goin in circles , one post said only air as a backing , ive got bows that the only reason it has rawhide on it is because it makes a great canvas for ( as Arvin calls it , tie dye )

Sorry ,but no rawhide. I remember that bow from earlier post and thought it was just painted on the back. It is a beauty for sure but would go in the Traditional long bow class. Pappy

Pappy, Myself and Dewayne, are happy to do this for all our Selfbow friends, and can't wait to watch that shootdown !! Cal

Ok. I will be sending Pappy a hundred to sweeten the pot for the hot shots. I challenge other folks- venders to do the same. I want to see selfbows at the trad world!! Spark some interest for the shoot , the wonderful veuie and the sport. Let's see how many we can get at Pappys. Lol. Arvin

Ok. I will be sending Pappy a hundred to sweeten the pot for the hot shots. I challenge other folks- venders to do the same. I want to see selfbows at the trad world!! Spark some interest for the shoot , the wonderful veuie and the sport. Let's see how many we can get at Pappys. Lol. Arvin

Looking forward to seeing some great shooters.

Terry Harris

I am sure you will Terry,thanks Arvin,I may even have another surprise for this one, more next week. Pappy

Contacted some friends to see who all was goin to the world, if they all get to go and they allshoot their selfbows ill have 7 or 8 bows in it

I think the self bow shoot down is going to be awesome...definitely worth recording.

Dewayne

How early can we show up Pappy

This is getting interesting. If there is that many selfbows we could have a new high score for selfbows for sure. It will also be interesting to see how close some of those selfbow scores get to the longbow wood scores. Lol to bad it won't be mine lol . Arvin

Good new,the self bow side of TwinOaks decided this weekend that we would throw in another $150.00 to make it an even $500.00. 250.00 to the winner 150.00 to 2nd. and 100.00 to third. Should be fun. Pappy

Yikes, maybe I should just shoot selfbow this year !! LOL those guys will kick my butt !! Should be fun thou !!

A 500.00 purse is awesome for any class...I can't wait to see the top self bow shooters in the World battling it out.

Great job Pappy.

Dewayne Martin

Thanks C&D archery for getting this started and the idea. Pappy

All of a sudden I want to start shooting my self bow.lol

Bring it on will tell. The more the marryer. This is going to be the best yet I think Pappy.

Im gettin excited

Yep me also Kenneth. Pappy

Back up. Pappy

TTT. Pappy

Ok how many selfbow shooters do we have coming . Arvin is in.!

I'm in!

I may have 5 or 6 Arkies, may do T shirts Arv, Hey friend said IBO rules read that a selfbow string can't the belly once it leaves nock grooves, so no statics i guess or some flipped tips is this how it reads?

I'm in if I get time. LOL. I will check on that Kenneth, I didn't read that in it, But could be. I think it all has to do with the backing of the bow ? Pappy

Im going to bring my bow and everyone that has one like it. I was told the pick of my bows are ok. I am gong with that. I have a feeling they are talking more about recurred tips. I have built what I consider three recurve bows. They are in the pic below. The three piece take down and the two to the left of it. But I have news for everyone those bows are not any faster than the rest of the bows on that rack pound for pound. So I don't care if isomeone else brings static revurves if they are air backed. Deminishing mass robs most speed that you get by recurving. It only helps if the recuve part of the limb works. Not too many self bowyers out there can do that. But I would like to see a couple of those bows. Arvin

String can't touch bow after it leaves string groove. Just like longbow class.

What if he bow does not have string grooves just big loops? Just asking.you can also put a small loop on the string and prevent the sting from touching the flipped tip. We going to shoot bows or be picky who gets to compete? Lol Arvin

Still not sure on that, waiting on the regulation book, I helped write the self bow rules and I don't remember having that in it, could be ? I have slept since then.I will update as soon as I have the answer. Pappy

Back up. Pappy

One month til I leave. Arvin

Yep be here before you know it. Pappy

Back up. Pappy

TTT

Thanks Arvin. Pappy

Kenny you going to have pics of razor backs on them shirts? Arvin

Aint put much thought in it yet , better start though gettin close , what day u figure ill need to get there to get a decent camping spot

Can't wait..

Kenneth we should have plenty of room for camping, a lot stay in Motels at this event, not like the Tennessee Classic where most camp.You shouldn't have a problem but of course earlier is better. I will be there from Monday evening on so anytime yall like is fine.The practice bails will be open. May put you to work if you show up to early. LOL.

Pappy

TTT Arvin

Thanks pappy , id like to get somewhere where i can get my ( really quite) generator off in the woods, wife said air was a must

We should be able to handle that bishouwa, we are going to have a big AC tent also for folks to go and cool off. Pappy

Cool

less than a month so get them self bows dusted off and fine tuned.I am working on a DogWood right now I hope to get time to shoot,if I don't get it finished or it don't turn out like I want I still have plenty of others to shoot. Pappy

I am just tring to get two bows built before then. This work thing really is starting to bother me. Oh well soon we will be on our way bows built or not. Arvin

Heard a new 1, is there a rule on a padded stricker plate on the selfbow? Think im gonna build me a new 1 for the world Arv

Not that I know of. Pappy

Pappy, I just wanted you to know that I think what you have done for primitive archery and self bow shooting is amazing. I shot in the first IBO World Trad shoot and it was a poor turn out for self bows and most of those who did shoot didn't turn in their score cards. I don't think there is any one else who could of done what you have. Heck you even got Calvin to put down his 21st century longbow and pick up a stick to shoot with.lol Can't make it to the shoot but hope all you fellas shoot straight. Will

Kenny I will be shooting my hunting bow. Can't change this summer. Arvin

Thanks Will but a lot of folks have put a lot of effort to try and get a good self bow turn out,[and overall turn out] I think it is working but we will see.Seems most events have been down this year for some reason, the TN. Classic was up so we are hoping this event will be also. Wished you could make it,I feel sure it is going to be a hoot. Maybe next year, we plan on doing it in 2016 also if all goes well. Pappy

Back up. Pappy

Is extra wood added to the grip area legal?

I would say yes if it is on the belly side . But better get Pappys ok. Arvin

Yes it is Tom. Pappy

a. Bow – no man made material can be used on bow except string material and glue. No performance enhancing material may back the bow (ie. Another wood, bamboo, rawhide or sinew). Only decorative materials such as snake skins may be used. b. Arrow – must be wood, bamboo or cane. A Primitive bow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers, Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may be used. Arrows shall be made of wood, bamboo or cane and shall be identical in length, weight, and color (allowances shall be made for normal wear). Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness. The shelf may not be built up in a manner that will give the archer an advantage in terms of feather or vane clearance. The intent is that the shelf meets the side of the riser (strike plate) so the built-up shelf may not be a pyramid that provides clearance and separation from the bow riser. PRM archers will shoot from the White stake. A Primitive Bow shot in PRM shall conform to the following specifications: 1. The bowstring, when the bow is strung, may only contact the nocks of the bow./ Maybe this will help. pretty simple I think. Pappy

Is there a known max distance

Hi Kenneth, I see something of your. My compliments, you make a cool bows!! See you soon

By reading your last comment Pappy, I would think its fine, but would a rubber type of grip material on the handle like used for baseball bats be okay?

Thanks for the info! Sounds like it could be fun!

NO !! LOL

I think so MM Don't think it matter on the grip. If so we got a real problem, I know folks that use cork or metal sleeves for a take down, if fact building a take now right now, I can't believe there would be a problem, it is more about the backing on the limbs than anything else.Any yes it is going to be fun. Pappy

Pappy, I was pulling his leg ! LOL

Is Shilo shooting a selfbow??? Arvin

Lets see,,,, cost of loaning my Dye selfbow to a certain young man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,still figuring it out,,,,,,but I bet I come up with something

Lonnie builds a good one! That's how I saw my first really good one. Then I new what to do with mass. Shilo you trayder. Lol Arvin

TTT. Pappy

Thanks Kurt. Pappy

Looks great . Headed your way slowly stating today. Arvin

Dang Arvin! You jumping the gun already????? And I thought I was excited to get back to twin oaks!

You traitor. See ya soon Shiloh. Arvin

Have a safe trip Arvin,when do you plan on arriving ? Pappy

Wedenseday about noon I am guessing. Arvin

I will be looking for ya. Pappy

On our way . We will be stopping in Arkansas, and Illinois first. Them texans will wonder around for ever tring to get out of their yard. Lol Arvin

See ya in a couple of days Arvin. I will be off line from today on so any questions call 615-456-5961. Pappy

Thanks to twin oaks for another great world trad shoot. I was extremely happy to see the amount of selfbows shooting this year. Thanks to each one of the partisapents this year. I still believe that if we keep having this kind of turnout that a selfbow will at some point have a higher score than the longbow wood class. We get closer easy year it seams like. Arvin

Yes it was great Arvin,29 in the IBO side of the self bow and over 40 in the Twin Oaks hunter's challenge side, I think changing the rules to a true self bow really inspired a lot to come and play. We plan on doing it once more in 2016 and feel like it will grow even more especially in that class, been getting lots of inquires and question since it was over from folks building stuff for next year so that is very encouraging. Pappy

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