There have been several threads here lately that, in some way, disparage "production" bows and make it seem that they are inferior to custom bows. Custom bows is misnomer for several reasons. Many folks call a bow custom if they can choose the wood used in it. Some call them custom if they can get the bow marked xx# @their draw length, rather than 28”. The reality is that while most custom bows start with a proven design from the bowyer and are modified from there where most production bows are offered as a “standard” model, both are very similar.

If we use Bear as an example of a production bow it’s easy to see that each bow of a particular model is nearly identical. Yet Bear uses many different work stations and people in building each bow so they all have individual handwork. This is not unlike other shops thought of as custom. I’ve never toured the Black Widow factory but I’ll bet that there are multiple people involved in building a Black Widow. In fact, unless the bowyer is a one-man shop, most bows are built along the lines of the way Bear does it - blanks are played up, roughed out on a CNC machine or duplicator and finished by hand - often my multiple people.

So why do some folks look down their noses at production bows? Maybe it’s the lack of choices. Maybe it’s a notion that performance is always superior in a custom bow. Maybe it’s because some folks believe a $1100 bow has to be better than a $600 bow. Maybe it’s just ego in having a showcase bow. Having owned and shot many, many custom and production bows I believe there is not a significant difference in performance between most bows. Sure there are some exceptions but, across the board most production bows will more than hold their own against most customs.

As far as durability, if you build as many bows as the production companies you will likely see a higher failure number but not necessarily rate. In over 50 years of shooting bows I’ve had only two bows blow up on me when shooting. Both were well known custom bows by different builders. I’ve shot a lot of “vintage” bows that are still as good today as the day they left the factory. As far as workmanship, I’ve also had issues with custom bows. Custom doesn’t mean perfect by any means.

I know there are strong feelings on this but it’s important to keep facts in mind rather than emotion when running down production bows.

I shoot a lot of production bows and shoot them just as well as my custom bows...I will just use one example of the many I could reference...last fall I got some Full Metal Jacket Dangerous Game arrows to use with a couple of my bows that were hard to tune with more conventional arrows...those arrows weigh in at just over 900 grains...I shot them through my Chrony and with my Cari- bow Tuktu EX, a very fast and quiet shooter,and they shoot between 150 and 155 fps depending on my release...I shot them with my 1960 Kodiak of essentially the same draw weight, also a very fast and quiet shooter, and they shoot 150 to 155 fps depending on my release...and btw next time you are wondering about the best core wood recognize that both those bows use Maple...the only bows that I own that I truly regard as custom left the shop in blank form...they may not be the prettiest or nicest finished bows I own but they are custom made for me, by me, because I did the final shaping and finish work

DDave

There are very very few true custom bowyers. They have a design and you can get it with the same limb design at different lengths to accommodate your draw length and preference. You get to pick the wood, get your name on it along with the weight at your draw, and how the grip is made. Martin does the same thing except wood choice and in the past so would Bear. I dunno about at all draw lengths but at my draw I'd be hard pressed to find a faster, better shooting bow than a howatt hunter. If calling it custom is what floats your boat then do so, but 99 percent are NOT really custom.

Not me, I don't run em down, but don't care for, or own, either kind ;^)

What I consider custom bows are bows made by a true craftsman such as but not limited to big Jim, Dan tolke, dick Robertson, fred Anderson etc.

These folks and many more not listed without a doubt do better work than the majority of folks working for a check at places like bear archery. It's just a fact that when your name is on the company you care more about the products especially when it is your sole source of income.

The howatt plant was an exception to the rule as they were truly craftsmen lead by a true artisan.

I'm sorry but if you really believe the bows that are mass produced at any of the plants now compare in quality to the ones built by the folks listed above then we will just have to agree to disagree. The production bows are great don't get me wrong but a simple visual inspection separates the cream from the milk imo

I agree, I don't think one is no better than the other. I have both and shoot both, that said I do usually shoot my custom ( if you want to call them that) most of the time because I like to shoot something different than everyone else and I have big hands so ordering a bow from a smaller Bowyer helps me get a grip that fits me. But like I have said before I like all bows ! Lol

I like them both but to me being able to pick the piece of wood the bow is made of is alittle more special than picking a vehicles color. Getting the grip exactly how you want it is a huge deal.

Also I consider black widow to be the nearest mass produced bow to a true custom that I've ever seen. Fit and finish on their weapons are above standard for sure

The biggest difference is cost. You pay for the foo-foo. If you're happy with that than that is a good thing. Keep in mind that perfect 300 indoor, and perfect 560 outdoor field rounds have been shot....and still are with production bows. I find little if any difference.

I agree Phil. I like them all, but I will pay more for quality and someone who takes care of their customers, even if it has the added foo-foo, lol. If customs really aren't customs, what will we call them then? Really personal bows? :-)

I have to agree with Dkincaid. I have owned quite a few Bears and a pair of 1959 Bear Kodiak reproductions that were made by E.B. Holcomb and a similar model made by John McDonald and those bows are much nicer than any of the several Bears I've owned. And, I'm not at all slighting Bear….I like their products, particularly the 1956 double shelf Kodiaks.

When Jim Dougherty had his shop in Tulsa I came within inches of buying a Mamba recurve from him and in some ways I regret that I didn't. I saved a few more dollars and bought a Partner recurve from Wes Wallace, along with an additional set of limbs. I still have that equipment and it's as nice as the day I bought it. Wes made that bow with no special woods or embellishments but I'd still take it over any production bow I've ever seen.

I also own bows that were made by Tom Kelley, Northern Mist and by Toelke and the quality of the craftsmanship is really difficult to believe.

Overall, I don't have any beef with production bows but I don't think that anyone can compare some Chinese or Korean copy or "original design" to a well known American made production bow and I don't think that your typical off the rack production bow can be compared to the offerings by any of the more distinguished and well known bowyers that I've named above.

Nice fly rods are the same way. All of them can help you catch a fish but some a much nicer than others and I think that in the end, you get exactly what you pay for.

Nice post Phil. Ive owned plenty "custom bows." After that, I find that the recurve I shoot far and away the best is a Bear. I have a Tradtech Pinnacle 2 that is a keeper also. I just cant imagine an archer would not be happy w/ what Bear is producing. Archery is about preferences that make the experience good for the archer, but I agree, don't forget the production bows that are out there.....their designs are generally copied pretty closely by other bowyers.

I always thought of customs as a bow that would not have been built unless you ordered it. I guess that true for production bows as they sell large quantities to to big retailers who would have placed an order. So I'm not really sure if a custom bow even exists but I do know there are bows that have more care and attention to detail that exist and until recently I have found that it resides with both custom and production bows.

The most overused term in the world is, "you get what you pay for." I suppose, used in proper context, you do...you pay money and you get something for it. You don't always get better quality by paying more money. Matter of fact I have seen the reverse many times.

You want a bow that shoots bullseyes all the time, buy any good bow and learn how to shoot it. If you want to pay money for what you think is a custom, then do the same and likely you will shoot it well. How well you shoot a bow has never had a relation to the cost of the bow. I would honestly say that the issue is the archer as far as shooting goes. And I would also venture that over half of the traditional archers today, with modern equipment, couldn't shoot with the best archers of the 1940s...even with them using the bows of the day.

It's the same as a 100000$ shotgun compared to a 300$ shotgun each one does the job it was intended to do. Does one do it better it depends on who you ask.

The thing is I have no problem giving up a few features such as finish and appearance if the price is right. But now I can't justify buying a bow off the shelf for $600 plus dollars that isn't finished as well or is as pretty as a used custom for $350. I never take the hit on ordering a bow I let someone else drive it off the lot. With used bows comes a risk but the same rings true with new. Often the warranty isn't what you think it is. Depending on the company or distributor you could spend 100s on shipping alone.

A bow is only as accurate as the arrow allows it to be as well as the operator. A great shot is a great shot with a samick or a blackmail. A crappy shot is a crappy shot no matter what bow he shoots. But to many the picking out and buying of a bow is more of a thrill than actually shooting it. I am grateful that this is the case because I have been able to buy some really nice bows for a song due to the previous owner being disenchanted.

Just as George said only difference is the cost.

Most custom bows are made by one person or family. Supporting them and there family. A lot of production bows are made over seas like China or Korea for cheap they might be good quality and performance.

Here is the way I figure it. If you can afford to pay for the so called "Foo-Foo" then by all mean enjoy it. If you can't afford to pay for the "Foo-Foo" then shoot what you can afford and enjoy it! JMHO Jim :>)

Here's my take, I own I guess a 90's Howatt Hunter and a 2005 Dream Catcher. The older Hunter reads 55# @ 28. The Dream Catcher reads 55# at 28. I knew that the dream catcher was light, so I had it weighed at 28" IT WAS ONLY 49#!! AND THE TILLER IS OFF BY MORE THAN 1/2"!! The old Howatt Hunter is 54.8# @ 28" and the tiller is right on the money!! Bottom line I think Martin got rid of all of their good bowyers and basically are building inferior products IMO. So I think there is definitely a difference between true craftsmanship and a huge plant that just wants to pump out numbers!

Not really any arguing with what Phil stated in his O.P..

Custom bows rarely perform better than production bows. Custom bows are SOMETIMES warranted better than production bows, but just as often not. Designs of custom bows are rarely different from production bows. There are a FEW exceptions to that, but not many.

Dkinkaid, I remember going to a club and shooting skeet on Open-Sundays with our old battle scarred Mossbergs, Ithicas, and Remington 870's, with shells stuffed in pants pockets, and we would shoot as good or better than the club's skeet league guys with skeet guns that cost more than my truck, and head to toe official garb and periferals, high dollar stuff, they looked like they came right out of a magazine... and they looked down on us soooo hard.... we were just a bunch of good ol boys with cheap shotguns who could shoot, and my, my, it was fun watching them squirm.

Have you shot a Morrison, dryad or border

I've only shot a half dozen or so production bows, probably close to 50 custom. you'll never convince me that a production bow can hold a candle to a custom. If I could choose between one custom from a half dozen or so builders or any 10 production bows, I'm going custom every time.

I prefer my Toelke bows ( functional art masterpieces, all 6 of them ) however, I cannot out shoot the quality production bows I have owned. My Toelke bows fit better not unlike a fine custom tailored hand made suit.

They will put perform any production bow on the market as well as look better doing it.

Biathlonman, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I would never say you are wrong (because there is no right or wrong here) or try to change your mind because bows are so subjective. But perhaps you just haven't shot the right production bows. I've owned over 50 customs and have owned more production bows. My experience is significantly different than yours.

I understand that some folks will hold on to notion that customs are better than production bows. Like I said, there are exceptions. But the reasons I've heard here only include a couple of quantifiable things like finish and quality. These are quality control issues, not design or production issues and don't automatically make production bows "bad".

I know that, because of volume, there are places like Bear and some others that turn out bows with issues that should be caught. But I believe that, aside from those obvious mistakes, the good production bows (the vast majority of the ones shipped) will shoot right with any custom bow (that's based on my experience and what I've read by Blacky and others that test bows) and have every bit the quality of fit and finish as any custom I've seen or owned. Yes the types of woods may not be as exotic or fancy. Dick Robertson, Fred Anderson and others make true works of art. But it's to be expected that if someone is building 5, 10 or 20 bows a month more attention to detail and design can be put in a bow than a factory turning out that many or more in a shift so those bad ones won't get out the door Although there have been numerous stories here about folks getting custom bows with problems. Howatts are a prime example of an excellent production bow. Their current quality may not be good but, for decades, they produced some of the best performing and handsome bows available anywhere.

Jack Howard may have been a one-person shop but his manufacturing techniques were the same as use by Black Widow, Bear and others only he did all the steps himself. Were his bows custom or production? Either way they were one of the best bows ever produced by anyone.

The newer Bears are very good looking good performing bows. I own a couple and have seen many others. I know there are some that have had issues but my bows are as good in fit and finish as any Robertson, Black Widow, Morrison, Jack Harrison or any other custom bow that I have owned.

There is no right or wrong to this, just opinions. And my opinion is based on decades and too many dollars spent on custom bows looking for the Holy Grail only to realize that, as has been said, it's the shooter that makes the biggest difference. Besides, I just didn't know Frisky had the Holy Grail of bows.

Enough threads on here bout all the problems with a lot of produ tion bows aren't there , excluding black widow , they actually care ,, Bear on the other hand ,, well you get it ,, I can name a few custom bowyers that you'll never have a problem with and won't break the bank , tell me there's no difference , you're dead wrong ...

I trust blackys bow test as my gauge for performance

Never owned a custom bow, $ money being the sole reason. I am most likely going to buy six sets of limbs for my Samicks though, and then seal them up in a tube from moister . when you find something you like that's when some fool decides to stop making it. I have stashed arrows , heads, and other things like this that I don't want to loose. I suppose if I owed a great custom that I would stash them away just the same like a piece of fine art.

I have to agree with Phil that there are essentially NO truly Custom bows being built out there... Yes, you can choose woods, glass color and draw weight, but EOD, every bowyer has one or more forms, presumably of his/her own design, and every bow that comes out of a given form will be as close to the last as the bowyer can make it, give or take a few pounds....

I suppose in order to be truly Custom, a.bow would have to have a grip tailored to the shooter's hand, with limbs optimized for the owner's draw length and preferred type of string, and the riser cut more or less to center for the specific diameter of the arrow that the owner prefers and X amount of reflex and Y amount of deflex, and would have to come off of a form that would be just about useless for any other customer....

So basically, there are smaller shops and there are bigger shops, and some will be more accommodating of specific requests than others...

JMO, the only knock on my Howatt Hunter is the fact that the shelf is kind of chunky on account of the bow having been built when many shooters still used an elevated rest; my second-hand Bighorn has a shelf that was made to be used with a rug rest at most, which puts the shaft closer to my hand, and I do seem to shoot it better, though a lot of that might be just the extra mass of the riser, since it's a TD.

But the Hunter is noticeably faster.

None of what I just wrote is intended to take anything away from a smaller-shop bow, and the argument that a used small-shop bow is a better bargain at $350 than nearly twice that for a NIB offering from the big names... It's pretty hard to argue with that.

But I think you'd have to break 4 figures to get into a brand new bow that could shoot more than just a few FPS faster than my 25-year-old Hunter... Which cost me all of $150, brand spankin' new....

I think that the person shooting the bow is more important than the bow. I've been outshot by guys with production bows while I was shooting a Widow. A good shooter with a yard sale recurve can shoot as good as a person with a custom bow...if he's a good shot. The only difference I can see is the width of the grip. I also shoot a '72 Bear Kodiak Hunter and an '83 Martin Hunter. The Widow grip is more narrow through the web between my thumb and forefinger. More comfortable for me.

Guys , its not the bow its the arrow ! One can have the best of the best but if you dont have the right arrow its nothing. A Big 5 fiberglass bow with the right arrow can out shoot a (you fill in the blank) with the wrong arrow. Its the arrow stupid.

Looking for a true custom bow? Consider Eaglewing Archery, Steve Tallent. Every bow Steve builds is a true custom bow. Steve builds every bow. Each bow is built to the customer's specifications. I have three bows of the same modal designation, the Frontier 66. Each of the bows differs from the other. One has a single carbon lamination. Another of the bows has two carbon laminations. The third bow has triple carbon laminations. Each of the bows has different veneer laminations. I ordered two of the bows and bought the third bow from the classified section. Each of the bows has a similar draw weight. Each of the bows have different draw characteristics. The Frontier 66 is a string follow bow. The single carbon has very little pre-load. The double carbon exhibits considerable pre-load. The triple carbon has no pre-load.

I posted a Making A Martin video before, but here is another one for your enjoyment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZfKhdSJ1sY

Also, check out the riser on my "production" bow!

Joe

I would have once upon of time felt similarly to Phil but IMO the quality difference in workmanship has over the years widened in favor of the customs and the price differences between them has narrowed. While I collect and shoot older bows, I feel that I'm better served these days with a custom if I'm going to buy a new bow.

Custom, depends on who you are dealing with. Most anything, not massed produced, is referred to as custom these days. And, a lot of it is junk, or leaves much to be desired. On the other hand, if you are dealing with the right bowyer, the outcome can be a fine bow, that can last you a life time.

Was talking to a fellow many years ago at a shoot in Renselear IN. He said something that I have always found to be a truth. He said every bow that you build reflects you. If your having a bad day or a good day its in the bow your building.

People have to make up there own minds if a custom is worth it or not. Plenty of factory or mass produced so called customs will more than fit the bill for a good bow.

Mean no disrespect to any of the bow companies out there. But that fellow was so right. The true custom builders poor our hearts and souls into the bows we build. If I missed the draw weight or something happened to the bow later I took it pretty hard. Took it pretty hard if you sold the bow I built for you also. Got over that one, bows like guns or anything else to some people just something to buy then sell or trade later for something else. Seen a few months ago where a recurve of mine had made it to Australia. Fellow had shot a nice hog with it. Was well pleased to see a bow I built in the 90's doing what it was built for so far away!

been along night starting to ramble some, sorry. Guess my point is if your buying a true hand built custom. A piece of that bowyer is in that bow. Whether or not its worth the money is up to the buyer.

Y'all take care, Old

It seems like the arguments over which is "better" stem from the fact that its really not an either/or situation! Is a bow a custom because each piece of wood was cut and planed while being held by the hands of a bowyer? Or is it a custom because I can choose the wood, stain, and overlays that bowyer uses? Or does it have to be handled by the same individual from the first run through the planer to the the final polish of the last coat of finish for it to be a custom? Or - is a TRUE "CUSTOM" only a bow whose builder I can meet and show the hand that I will hold the bow to for sizing and shaping the grip? Hmmm, is it even a "custom" bow at all if I bought it used - or is it now just another "production" bow? ; )

I suspect one can argue the virtues of both for a LONG time without resolution when there are so many different understandings of what a production and custom bow are. Seems to me we will never agree on a clean split between the two when there's a pretty smooth continuum of production line styles that range from the Martin factory in central Washington to Wes Wallace's and Al Kimery's one man shops just a half hour up the road.

I don't have a beef with either Production or custom . While what Phil said is true, looking at things from a different angle is also true.

For instance, Production assembly line type work, do all workers have the same work ethic and skill? Or do some have a more, that's good enough attitude, or i'm only here for the paycheck.

Seems every workplace has a few workers that just want to punch in, punch out, just put my time in and get paid, not do anymore than i have to, with no real pride in their job.

If you have people overseeing QC that actually care, they can weed out the sloppy the careless,and most reputable company's do. Bear bows for example are good bows. They don't have a personal touch like a bow from custom a bowyer, but to say they are no good is foolish.

Having been a contractor for years, If i personally do a job for you without any help, it will be perfect. If i lay your brick, It will be level, perfectly plumb, joints all uniform, and nicely done, And the finished product will be a "wow that's nice" job, Because i have personally done it.

If i have 8 guys working on the same house, chances are the finished product will be of slightly less quality, simply because more hands were involved. While i oversee the work, common sense tells you I can't stand over each worker and babysit every moment. Common sense also tells us i can't produce the number of houses by myself that i can with 8 guys. But i weed out the problem areas and the final product is good.

Production bows are no different. Company's like Bear, Martin ect...don't stay in business as long as they have, and produce the sheer number of bows they have If they produced shoddy bows. To think so is kinda foolish.

Along with my above post.

It's very common for people to expect perfection in everything, but themselves.

EF Hutton, the posts of yours that I saw here offered your opinion AND questioned the moderation at the same time.

"No discussion, or challenge, to our editing policy are allowed within the conferences. If you disagree, or want clarification as to why a particular topic, post, or person was removed, you are required to e-mail us [email protected]. We will not respond to any inquiries or challenges on our public forums however we will respond to e-mail or private message inquiries."

Email them. Or just offer your opinion without the digs at the moderation and I bet they stay put.

EF Hutton, please send me a private message.

Kpc versatility in my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with a custom bow it's an apples to oranges argument.

I won't get into a spitting contest with you over it or your views on custom bows but other folks are allowed to have an opinion. Often times that is forgotten by myself and others. No persons opinion on this matter is wrong or more valid than another.

What constitutes a custom car? A custom motorcycle? The buyer's choice of paint color or other optional listed accessories at the dealer? Maybe an emblem that says "Custom" too.... so everyone will know? lol, I don't think so.

Huh! It has been my observation that there is more hate directed at custom bows than production bows on this website. I can't count how many threads have appeared on this website that insinuated that custom bows are over-rated and over-priced. Participants still have not decided whether a Black Widow should be classified as a custom or production bow!

Ollie, My intent in posting this wasn't to bash custom bows it was more to point out my observations over the past few decades. Personally I believe that there are few differences in performance but artistically there can be a world of difference. There are many bowmakers that turn out very beautiful, great performing bows. But that doesn't mean that bows made by several folks in a production line are inferior.

As far as pricing, being an independent businessman I don't know how bowmakers stay in business. Just doing the math tells me that prices for "custom" bows should be higher or we will see more fallout among bowmakers. There is a certain amount of overhead for equipment, space, supplies... and operating costs like utilities, insurance, trips to shoots...that all add up to a healthy sum before one bow is built. While I wouldn't offer more than the asking price of a custom bow I would never say they are overpriced.

And about Black Widow - they make fantastic bows and I've loved the ones I've owned, but I do believe they are built in a production line format. Yes I can request certain woods or draw length but the models they have are what they sell. To me that isn't a bad thing at all.

Kpc to be fair I should preface my claim with I believe they out perform production bow and look better doing it. I am a long draw shooter who prefers the draw feel of a semi static limb and also the feel of the deep hooks present on those bows. And compared to any any production bow I have shot they draw more smoothly and shoot flatter for me. I like the fact that for string pinch I can shoot a bow that measures 64" resting but uncoils to 66" at my draw ie. The border limbs. The only production bows that I have been impressed with are the older howatts the older Kodiak special and most of the herters recurve.

I shoot 90% ilf now days so that I can put together a kit that truly fits my style so in a sense you are correct I am customizing my rig.

I do believe there should be some distinction made between currently produced production bows and the ones made in the past.

Dan Toelke and a number of other bowyers makes truly Custom, one of a kind bows. As only one example, I have shot a few of his 52" Kestrel Recurves. I draw 29" and if you believe the only difference between one and the numerous, popular factory produced 52" recurves is how they look, I know for sure you have never shot one.

I think this is a terrible thread and full of misunderstandings. You are totally missing the true difference between production and custom and trying to fit all into 2 categories which you can't do.

Anyone who turns up their nose at a "production" bow like a Bear is crazy. They are not custom but fine bows and nothing wrong with the quality at all. But try and call Bear up and order a Super Kodiak in a different wood combo, with antler tip overlays, a lower grip and 2" longer than what they normally offer you they will say "we don't do that". Great bows just not "custom" at all.

To explain what "custom" is well; just shoot a Schafer Silvertip, Wes Wallace, Blacktail, Toelke, Brackenbury, JD Berry, JavaMan, Fox, ect. and with one shot you will see the difference! The difference is fit in hand and performance more so than quality

A Custom bowyer like the above has one person make the bow start to finish. They hand choose the quality of the materials, woods, epoxies, fiberglass, carbon, limb core, ect. They make the design and they, the bowyer, signs the finished work. You can specify woods used, the tiller, length, grip style, checkered grip or not, tip overlays, leather grip wrap or not, FF or not, ect. All these options make the finished bow "custom" and should be a better fit to the shooter.

One is not Better than the other, Just one is more "custom" than the other.

I like Bear bows but if you think a Bear will perform as well as or feel better in your hand than a custom Schafer Silvertip or Fox or Brackenbury you are as crazy and the guy who turns his nose up at a Bear!

Kpc you are talking about semantics. I consider all of the above mentioned bows to be from a custom shop therefore custom bows. One could argue that every bow is produced therfore production. But for me if it's from a custom shop it's custom if it's from an assembly line shop such as bear Samick pse etc it's production

The entire topic is so subjective that it's akin to discussing religion or politics. People are going to shoot and enjoy what they shoot and enjoy and likely not change their minds about it. I haven't the inclination to test scores of bows, but I'll take Phil's word that they perform more similarly than not. At the same time, I am a sentimental fool and "custom" bow customer because I like "feeling" that I, in some small way, contributed to the final product, making it more personal to me than a bow off the rack. I appreciate all of the research and opinions, but just shoot what you enjoy and leave the rest of us to do the same.

K Cummings,

With your Kestrel example I wouldn't call them production but generic. I think the word "Custom" should refer to a particular bow, made for a specific individual, meeting the specific requirements, of that individual. Production bows as I have always looked at it, is they all look the same (woods used) and the poundage is always at a set draw length. Differences in a production bow are happen stance because of who was doing the finishing work. I have handled to different Martin hunters looked the same but how the handle/grip fit were different on the two bows. In your Kestrel example those bows were made up for sale with no one special in mind but the woods used were what the builder just chose, thus making them generic from the builder. DANNY

Some of this stuff is just too funny....I love the guys who defend customs as though they were their children... It's silly.

Everyone should just shoot what they prefer why disparage one or the other?

One of my friends just dry fired his custom made Wes Walace and its a pile now.

My production made 1959 Starfire has been dry fired at 3 times, that I know of, and it's A OK.

Well...I've been shooting my Whippen Stick Phoenix for a few weeks now...and I couldn't be happier. At 62, this is my first "custom" bow. The workmanship is breathtaking...my hand melts onto the grip...smooth as silk. On top of that, Ken was the best to deal with. The bow is a helluva lot better than I.

Previous to this, I shot Black Widows for years, and wouldn't have hesitated to continue to do so...but, I was steered to Ken, and am not disappointed.

Other than that...who gives a $#/+ what anyone shoots or likes...whatever floats yer boat.

If you've shot a few of any particular bow its not a one of a kind custom.

And as for the 3 bows listed as top performers I own one of them. Its my go to recurve because I like the grip. But its one of the slowest bows I own at my 32" draw.

All I can comment on is my own experience.

I have owned 9 customs, 6 of which I actually ordered built to my spec. I have owned 9 productions bows of various makes.

The custom bows were superior bows. They were all made by one man operations. They had better a finish, the grips fit me better, they were smoother to shoot, and generally were better made bows. I shot them better too.

Of my production bows, 4 were Bears: two Graylings and two Gainsville bows. The Graylings were definately better bows in every way. The Grayling bows had grips that you could tell someone took their time on and cared how they felt. My mid 90's Gainsville SK had "issues", and that's all I'll say about that.

The best production bows I have owned were my three Martins. A ML-14, a Hunter, and a Dreamcatcher. Really nice fit, finish, grip, and shot nice.

All that being said, one of my favorite bows is my Greatree Solo longbow. Cost $145 brand new! I absolutely love shooting this bow. It don't look like much, but after I reworked the grip with a file and layers of tape it fits me just fine.

I can't lump all customs and productions into good or bad catagories. I can only share my own observations about the bows I've personally owned.

It's all a game of semantics. People take great issues with "titles" that derive from description...Take for example "instinctive shooting". The only way to solve that argument for some is for us to rename that to... "subconscious in peripheral vision alignment of arrow to target while we divide our concentration between equipment and aiming" Why does it offend so much when we downsize that name to "instinctive"?

The same can be said of custom vs production. Do you really expect a "custom bowyer" to make an entirely unique and individual bow for each and every shooter? That bow would then have such a poor resale value that it would also be devalued at purchase price. No, they are not entirely custom (yes, some will argue this too), but they do have more options that can be chosen by the individual and grip shape is an important one. Not all customs are worth their price to some, but this is a free country and we have the right to charge or pay what we feel fit ...I have yet to learn how to spell retirement without spell check so I don't think a bowyers wages will earn me a mansion.

As far as production goes, if that is what you prefer, go for it. I too like some and dislike others. Never claimed my bows or any other customs to excel in performance to their models...after all, who has/had more money for testing then the likes of Bear and hoyt?

These arguments of one over the other to justify either to spend or not spend just seem childish to me. Why should I feel like I have to defend myself on where I spend my money?

I will tell you that my "Custom" dog is better than yours and I have paid a lot of money for her (still am as she eats as much as i do). I won't take no crap from any one over her either as she was custom made just for me!!! "Sometimes" I think that my wife might have been custom made for someone else though....Just kidding honey! :) BigJIm

Well big Jim, bear and Hoyt probably spend more money on compounds and Olympic recurves... lol

I'm with you Jim. I make all of my own bows, most of them have been one of a kind, tailored specifically to me and my preferences. Occasionally, I make them for other folks to suit their specific wants and needs, creating new designs, patterns, presses, and cauls as needed, or on whims :^), but never once have I called one a 'custom bow'. To me, they're just bows. I suppose if I was trying to sell them though, I might.

That reminds me, I need to stop and get enough material to make a couple new presses. I've been getting itchy to try something different.

I would point to the '59 Kodiak clones. Saxon, John McCollough, and a few others made them as "Custom" bowyers. Bear saw the demand, and started making them again. Production.

Same bow, different bowyers. A matter of semantics

I'm always surprised when people talk about how long they're waiting for a custom bow from some bowyer I've only heard of here. I guess if you know that's the bow you really want, and want to spend the money, too. Often, though, I then see those bows in the classifieds here.

I'm fine with production bows, and admittedly a Hoyt fan. The fit, finish, and performance of my new Tiburon are all excellent. It's got a proven riser design, and lots of R&D went into the Formula limbs. When you make a lot of bows and have champions shoot them, you find out what works. A small shop doing custom work doesn't have that advantage.

I'll leave it at this before I go out of town for awhile. There is obviously enough of a market for custom bows to support huge number of bowyers who for the most part are backed up on orders. The masses speak with their pocket books and so far the pocket books say that customs are at the least extremely popular.

At the end of the day you can call it a custom or a production bow or a potato it really doesn't matter. People will dictate what the market will produce just look at the bow companies that bailed on non cammed bows when the cammed bows came out. If it wasn't for custom bowyers the market would have been very barren until someone filled the niche. These same custom bowyers continued the innovation when the others stopped. We owe them a debt for keeping the craft alive.

It seems like the purpose of this thread is to argue over a few words. I think we are all smart enough to understand the difference between custom and production.

If you don't then your probably not very good shooting a bow either. My goodness!

Custom means Custom, that is it. If you have talked to a custom bowyer, visited there workshop or shot one of there bows made to your specifications you get it. If not, you just dont get it and probably never will. So no need to argue about it around in a circle.

Shoot a PSE or Samick or Bear then shoot a Schafer Silvertip, or Brackenbury or Robertson or Toelke or Hummingbird,ect. If you still don't understand then God help ya because I can't!

Jack Hoyt, actually the reason I posted this thread was to point out that there are many similarities in how "production" and "custom" bows are made and perform. And that there is no real reason for folks to talk about production bows as second-rate bows.

The arguing always comes after the first post. :)

I do have to add that I have shot many of the bows you listed. Never shot a PSE, Samick, Toelke or Hummingbird. To use your phrase I guess I just don't understand. Dick Robertson makes fine bows and I've owned several. His workmanship is fantastic and his bows are beautiful. But I prefer a Bear takedown to his three piece bows. Although I haven't found a longbow that I like better than his.

Silvertips are also fine bows but I could never get comfortable with either of the two I owned. On the other hand the grip on a Howatt Hunter fits me like a glove.

Contrary to some of the beliefs here I have shot enough to tell the difference. And I have found that there are some bows that work well for me and some that I wish would work well for me. Custom doesn't automatically mean they work for me.

Here are some considerations that go into the making of a custom bow:

"Length is 62 inches notch to notch. Brace is 6 1/4 to 6 1/2, poundage is 48 at 28. Shooting the bow I noticed the bow is extremely smooth to pull and seems very fast. I was putting the arrow, 20 20 test in the same hole almost every shot. Very little shock and buzz and hitting very hard. Limb profile taper is ... at fades to ... at the notches. The bow consists of two ... per inch carmalized bamboo tapers, one strip of ... red X weave bow tuff glass in center of stack, power lam of same glass, quilted hard Eastern maple that is heavily birdseyed plus the quilt ... clear glass back and belly. Limb tips are black phenolic with super fancy koa overlay. String is Ten Ring Fury. The riser is heavily fiddle back eastern hard maple with black phenolic I beam. Maple is surrounded with a thin red stripe ala Bear maple bows. Back overlays are fancy claro walnut and quilt maple as in limbs. Belly overlays are shaped Elk Antler. Grip is slight locator with slight palm swell. Riser is radiused front and back and side of shelf. Window is ... plus past center and heavily radiused back and front. Grip is soft tanned elk hand sewn. Finish is epoxy under semi gloss Helmsman Spar Varnish. God bless, ... ."

The remarks by the bowyer are a description of a custom bow that I ordered from a member of the form. They are offered to help illustrate the different between a truly custom bow and a commercial bow.

I asked for a string follow bow for an old man, me.

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" So why do some folks look down their noses at production bows? Maybe it’s the lack of choices. Maybe it’s a notion that performance is always superior in a custom bow."

Except for on bow that has been true for me. My Rocky Mountain was a very shootable bow, but not impressive velocity wise.

When I ordered a Martin T/D Hunter, around 1980 for 135 when Bighorns were 175 or 195 (too big to ship), and the MArtin bow came without a rest that would hold an arrow, a ridiculous grip that was a torque multiplier, the design was changed from what I saw in the catalog, and used a Bubinga compound riser, and at 70#/28 inches delivered 175 fps drawn to 31 with a 550 gr arrow... I beep you not... Yeah, I think there is the odd custom that could beat that. Lets be clear, I don't think MArtin is a bad company. BUT HERE IS THE THING, they clearly thought that bow was a dreamboat for their customers. I prefer not to buy from that customer group because those are customers who don't know beep about bows. You are almost more buying the customer, than the bow. Take the best bowyer in the world, set him up in a business, if the only client he ever gets is made up of average 1980s Walmart customers he is not as likely to have a good product in his lineup as the guy whose clients included Gene Wensel and so forth. So the next bows I bought included Robertson, and Black Widow, and Elburg, and so forth.

" Maybe it’s because some folks believe a $1100 bow has to be better than a $600 bow."

One of the more recent customs I bought was a 350 bow from ZACK Fergusen, cause call me stupid but any time I can buy a bow from the family that designed it versus pay 200 more to bus a I-Bought-The-BEAR-Name version with springy tips that will make them saleable to the widest range of draw lengths while ruining the design, I go for the cheap bow...

"Maybe it’s just ego in having a showcase bow."

BWAHAHA..

"Having owned and shot many, many custom and production bows I believe there is not a significant difference in performance between most bows."

And having written a lot of English, I would say there isn't a discernible metric hidden in that sentence...

".re there are some exceptions but, across the board most production bows will more than hold their own against most customs."

How did the business get started? One of the key characteristics of the Trad archery thing was getting a custom bow, why did that happen? The makers dropped the ball and didn't respond to a market. I think things are different now, we have a number of ways in which better bows are being made today by the majors, most involve "piggie backing", to be kind.

Though I think it is really instructive that the whole DAS and ILF thing got driven by customs and little guys. I mean think of that. The big makers owned the ILF market, they owned the limb design, the limbs used today are for the most part their limbs, they were multiple design into the metal riser market, they still couldn't pull it off. Short of us just mailing in oor wallets, how could it have been made easier for them and they still blew it. In fact, the major achievement of the US majors during that period was to loose even the ILF biz to the Asians. Bravo!

"As far as durability, if you build as many bows as the production companies you will likely see a higher failure number but not necessarily rate. In over 50 years of shooting bows I’ve had only two bows blow up on me when shooting. Both were well known custom bows by different builders."

This was a large part of the problem. While not true of glass bows in the same way, the old saying that a bow drawn is 7/8th broken still has some truth to it. But the majors designed bows proudly for how many time they could be dry fired, or how many rivers you could wade with them as a staff, or how roughly you could throw them on talus when you got your trophy at your feet. These are not the sign of cutting edge bows or users. The stores would have signs saying you dry fire it you buy it, as they should, but the reality is the bows could be dry fired hundreds or thousands of times. They designed them for abuse not use.

"I know there are strong feelings on this but it’s important to keep facts in mind rather than emotion when running down production bows."

I don't feel the need to run down production bows, they are designed to a spec that was not demanding, they have now copied what most custom makers added to the product and the end result is less of a gap. But I still dance with the one who brung me, not the yokels who made happy crap.

What would be interesting to hear would be from the period when your main option became a custom, say late 70s, what have the majors added to the picture. I can't think of a single thing, and I can think of several bad things they hung onto. For customs the list would be 10 or 20 items long of a history of innovation that we never saw in the production companies as they continued to milk the cow.

well, i built "factory bows" for 52 years. funny thing, for years, and even after martins bought howatts, we built custom grips for anyone that wanted one. also would build any weight up to our maximum at any draw length ordered. no extra charge. until i built a sander to freehand shape risers we did them all with a 14" tapered wood rasp and three files and sanded everything by hand. quite a "factory". except for 1 18" wide belt sander we bought, all of our stuff was built by me and a couple of other guys back in the early sixties. that was true until the end of martin/howatt. we ran motors older than i am. i'm sure our bows were never equal to "custom" bows in performance but it's odd that all the american longbow flight reords are held by stock howatt longbows when so many other makes have been to the flats and competed against them.i do own 1 custom bow. tim meigs gave me one once when we were in canada for a tournament.

Larry, with all due respect, one of my big beefs about factories is they stuck with basically unshootable grips for ever. This dead wood only got cleared out of the compound market recently, and still hangs in a lot of trad bows. The "truth" was known, no doubt to many sophisticates all along, but when I started out the Jennings bows had a shootable grip on some of the models. And to be fair most custom manufacturers just went with whatever nonsense the client specified. I think both were guilty of malpractice, and it is this kind of crap that makes me think what we really need is to learn for ourselves, and not trust pro shops, or experts in either factories or most custom shops.

One of the big disadvantages to factory bows is that to move the product they sold through pro shops, and most of those sucked. They were just trying to move inventory. And in most cases didn't know what they didn't know, particularly for trad gear. I have certainly dealt with some good ones. Starting all over, the current majors, bought with internet advice, ordered online, that would be a different thing. And I probably could have got that custom grip that I would have wanted, but would never have heard about.

"ack Hoyt, actually the reason I posted this thread was to point out that there are many similarities in how "production" and "custom" bows are made and perform. And that there is no real reason for folks to talk about production bows as second-rate bows."

You are right that if you want to be more than a one man shop, and even conceivably if you want to be that, one way to set up is to just created a work station or jig for every procedure. Back in the 80s heavy duty machinery was out of reach, today we have it selling fro less than scrap, and to boot we have CNC, so a small shop could look a lot like a big shop. But unless you want to be in the monkeys typing Shakespeare business, the real difference is the people, and the people who make custom bows are a lot more impressive than the people who work for a wage. Which is presumably why the custom bow biz is one of the bright spots in modern outdoor gear production, with a solid record of achievement, while most of the 1980s majors like PSE, Martin, Bear, and Jennings are either 6 feet under or of no interest.

"The arguing always comes after the first post. :)"

Thanks for the opportunity

"I do have to add that I have shot many of the bows you listed. Never shot a PSE, Samick, Toelke or Hummingbird. To use your phrase I guess I just don't understand. Dick Robertson makes fine bows and I've owned several. His workmanship is fantastic and his bows are beautiful. But I prefer a Bear takedown to his three piece bows. Although I haven't found a longbow that I like better than his."

I think you are into something we have all felt, and that is that the custom bow business is really hit and miss, you often have to try a lot of product before you can come up with something you want to stick with. There are many ways in which the custom bow biz isn't. And one is it's failure to hit the mark. I have gone to a tailor, gotten measured up, the suit is delivered, it fits. That kind of simple input oputput isn't there in the custom bow biz.

"Silvertips are also fine bows but I could never get comfortable with either of the two I owned. On the other hand the grip on a Howatt Hunter fits me like a glove."

That i usually a bad sign...

"Contrary to some of the beliefs here I have shot enough to tell the difference. And I have found that there are some bows that work well for me and some that I wish would work well for me. Custom doesn't automatically mean they work for me."

We end up in total agreement. :)

Phil, I think one big issue would be if you draw 28. If all stock bows are essentially designed for you then that is a step up, not enough but a step. I'm only 6'1". but the way I am built, my upper body is actually 6'3". All stock bows are crap for me. And I think there is something fundamentally wrong with companies that think they have a product for the 40 percent of the market they aren't building for. They are corrupt or delusional. I guess if I was left handed it would be worse.

"(because there is no right or wrong here)"

Well of course one can come up with whatever nonsensical notions of excellence one wants, but I would say a bow that is designed to be fast, and is slow, or a bow that has a bad grip is pretty bad for starters.

"I understand that some folks will hold on to notion that customs are better than production bows. Like I said, there are exceptions. But the reasons I've heard here only include a couple of quantifiable things like finish and quality. These are quality control issues, not design or production issues and don't automatically make production bows "bad"."

Well as usual you don't say what it is you are talking about. A lower quality finish is that; hitting the grade of finish you wanted to hit, but it is a crappy finish, is a design issue. Most pros can get their target, but if they didn't it would be quality control that was off.

"I know that, because of volume, there are places like Bear and some others that turn out bows with issues that should be caught. But I believe that, aside from those obvious mistakes, the good production bows (the vast majority of the ones shipped) will shoot right with any custom bow (that's based on my experience and what I've read by Blacky and others that test bows) and have every bit the quality of fit and finish as any custom I've seen or owned."

Are we talking golden age, or current production? Because to flip your point back, you say that many customs are just the same as production shops, well are there any real Bears out there in the US today? There are a bunch of folks who copy stuff the production bowyers make and say how great they are. One of the production shops had a very fast Hybrid, but I don't remember them inventing hybrids, that was Pronghorn or 21st Century. What we have is a lot of very flattering copying going on, and it came full circle as the custom makers were making improved stock bows at one time.

"Yes the types of woods may not be as exotic or fancy. Dick Robertson, Fred Anderson and others make true works of art. But it's to be expected that if someone is building 5, 10 or 20 bows a month more attention to detail and design can be put in a bow than a factory turning out that many or more in a shift so those bad ones won't get out the door"

Ah, yeah, guilty, pay the cashier...

"Jack Howard may have been a one-person shop but his manufacturing techniques were the same as use by Black Widow, Bear and others only he did all the steps himself. Were his bows custom or production? Either way they were one of the best bows ever produced by anyone."

Obviously custom in the meaning of the word, which in the bow biz mainly means one man shop, or thereabout, making bows for expert shooters, to designs that are for the most part their own.

The original custom or expert shops had to prove their worth. Today there are a lot of bowyers out there who are coasting on what the original folks built. And that includes a lot of larger outfits. What the Bears of the world (total genius in his day) achieved was to convince people they would prefer to shoot a compound. What the custom guys did was convince some of us to stick with them. In a way that was almost a bigger ask than what Bear faced, because when he started people at least knew what a bow was.

"The newer Bears are very good looking good performing bows. I own a couple and have seen many others. I know there are some that have had issues but my bows are as good in fit and finish as any Robertson, Black Widow, Morrison, Jack Harrison or any other custom bow that I have owned."

Sorry that is ridiculous. I guess owning a lot of bows isn't enough in itself. One thing I believe is that when you get to a certain point you have things you want in a bow, and assuming they are available, you won't buy a bow without them. So in my case grip is super important. My longer draw length is important. I am a woodworker of 40 years or more experience, I can tell differences in detail and execution. And the only modern Bear bow I am intimately familiar with, the Royal Safari was a joke. It had reflexed tips, which totally goes against what the bow was designed to do. Doesn't make it a bad bow in the sense that it is someone's ink blot, their ideal, I guess...

"There is no right or wrong to this, just opinions. And my opinion is based on decades and too many dollars spent on custom bows looking for the Holy Grail only to realize that, as has been said, it's the shooter that makes the biggest difference."

Well of course, and Cary Grant was nicer looking than some of us, that doesn't mean he should have bought his suits at K-mart. Once you say something like that you are basically admitting you wouldn't care if a better bow came along, or you wouldn't know. Maybe in your case, all this fabulous experience you have didn't help you at all in becoming a technical person who could tell one bow from another. Not everyone is cut out to understand what makes stuff work. If you are a really hot shooter, then it is all gold in your hands. That is a better way to be, but it isn't being a technical person on bows. The technical people who make breakthroughs are not he people who think everything is perfect just the way it is.

Well, that's certainly a detailed response. But volume doesn't always mean quality. I am so tempted to go point by point through your wordy post and tell you where you are wrong, especially about me, but I'm not going to waste time trying to explain what I really said versus what you think I said.

I can tell you that trying to ridicule me doesn't make your point any stronger, it makes it appear that you need to make me look bad because what you're saying doesn't hold water. There are certainly many bowhunters with longer draws or bigger/smaller hands than you that shoot production bows better than both of us. Your physical requirements aren't unique.

So you're "intimately familiar" with one Bear bow - the Royal Safari - and you'll jump to criticize the entire industry because of that? Doesn't matter to me if you're a woodworker with 40 years of experience (BTW, got you beat there) you probably should look at one more bow before you voice such a strong opinion and ridicule lots of fine folks and companies.

Naturally I don't really agree with most of what you said because most of it is opinion rather than fact and, most of your opinions are wrong. And you really have a chip on your shoulder about production bows when, as Larry pointed out, you are mistaken about some important things you build your case on. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

"jack howard built all his bows by himself". that is so funny. we built bows for jack howard, doug kittredge, earl hoyt, and others for years. if you don't know the subject, sometimes it's best to listen and read instead of writing nonsense.

Larry, just to get my facts straight, I was told that you built his "Howard Hunter" 62" model right? And you gave it to him semi-finished.

I wasn't aware that you (Howatt) ever built any of his Gamemasters or Gamemaster Jets.

never said we built those.

Some seem to think custom means the bow's made for your draw length. Custom bowyers build just like factorys do in that they have one limb design and make the bows in different lengths to accommodate different draws. You don't get a limb design for 32" draw like my draw is. You get a longer version of the same bow everyone else buys. Writing the bow weight at your draw doesn't mean it was built for your draw.

I have an old Martin Hunter "Ne Plus Ultra" that is a favorite of mine. the grip is about perfect, and it's whisper quiet. I recently bought a $1385 Blacktail. Yes, it's prettier, but I'm not happy with the grip. Contacted Blacktail twice about lowering it.....no response. If I had to keep and use just one, it would be the factory bow.

Just my opinion

Thanks Larry. Just didn't want to repeat any misinformation.

I had a Robertson Mystical Longbow... it was mystical alright, traded it to a friend for 2 Martin Longbows (ML Series) and $50, I thought I got the better end of the deal and the Martin's were way more accurate, but they weren't as pretty or as fast.

That experience pretty much cured me of ever buying another custom bow.

Just picked up a Tall Tines at the Baltimore shoot and holy shebang talk about custom shootability and looks and finish and grip and and and ,,,, awesome !! Ain't no production bow comin close ,, that's a fact .....

As George Stout mentioned earlier, most all archery records have been set with Factory Production bows.

A fact??? Seriously? I agree that, in many cases, custom bows will outperform production bows by a few fps. I'm sure your new bow has a nice finish and it seems the grip fits you but to categorically state that no production bow will come close just shows tremendous bias or ignorance. The majority of bows are close. Some are a bit better than others but very few, if any are way better that all others.

I own a lot of bows, I have 2 Morrison recurves and a bunch of longbows all customs. I also have a few production recurves. All my bows shoot great, some are just prettier than others. That being said if you think a production bow doesn't come close to your custom bow in speed, smoothness, or accuracy, someone should tell the Koreans, they smoke everybody with production bows. On the world stage the Korean companies have the performance down pat.

I've owned many customs over the years as well as production bows. We shoot the arrow, not the bow. If I'm doing my part I'll connect with a $1500 custom as well as my 1972 Howatt that cost about $70. There is no wrong in either choice.

it seems some are arguing the point that the overall or average workmanship is not as good on production bows as it is vs. bows from (smaller) custom shops.

there are exceptions but, I would agree with this. this holds true with many other products or services, not just bows.

years ago our work force had a lot more craftsmen than it does today. even if you worked for a company that massed produced something, your name and reputation was still attached to it.

I work a lot with contractors and sub contractors in the building trades. the current generation of plumbers, framers, finish carpenters, masons, floor installers, etc. is not as good on average as one or two generations ago, imo.

I like some "production" bows and some "custom" bows. It all depends on how well they shoot for me. To me, the workmanship and materials used don't mean very much if it's not a good bow design.

First perfect 300 rounds PAA Indoor sanctioned...Shakespeare/Root Golden Eagle production bow. 2nd and 3rd perfect 300's were all shot with that bow...in the same weekend in 1967.

Vic Berger, first to shoot an 899 out of 900 in back to back to back rounds in a PAA sanctioned shoot. 1970...Bear takedown bow.

Our first trip back to the Olympics in 1972, Hoyt Pro Medalist took Gold and Siver and set new records in Munich, Germany. Production bows..all of them.

And today, the most accurate bows in the world are production risers with production limbs.

Now to each his own, but what you get with a custom....is something supposedly made the way you want it. That's it. They are wonderful bows and many folks take a lot of pride in them. Rightly so. But they certainly are not heads-above a good production bow. And Larry Hatfield has already attested to the flight side of the picture. Enjoy the time right now....when we have more choices than any other time in archery history.

There are plenty of good bows to select from, production and customized. Everyone should be able to find a bow that fits their personal budget and find one that they like. Why the need to kick the can back and forth all day long?

Not kicking the can. This is a forum for discussion. We're discussing. Kinda like a campfire where all kinds of stuff is poked and prodded.

Then there are those who like to show their prowess at building campfires and those who poke and prod until the fire gets extinguished. :)

I think there has been more innovation come out of Custom Bow shops then out of Production Bow shops. Look at all the different takedown versions of longbows for instance also limb designs. Some have proven themselves well, some have not. Depends on how much R&D/money&time Custom builders or Production bows are willing to put into it. DANNY

Right now the market is flooded with any kind of bow that you could possibly want. I have a Black Widow that I hunt with a Martin Jaguar that I bowfish with and 6 beautiful early sixties Damon Howatts that I could easily use as a go to bow should I choose. Like George said there has never been a better time to find a bow to your liking. Bob W.

not sure that statement is true at all. i can remember three "custom" bowyers that started with their design riser and howatt hunter limbs. two of them came to our shop and actually wrote down all the specs, made tracings, and purchased materials from us to get started. at howatts we worked on limb design and laminations and tested materials and designs every day. that was almost my full time job. innovation through experimentation. for every bow we put in the catalog there were a hundred or more designs that ended up in the trash. every day we also did destructive testing on current bows coming out of presses to make sure that our cures and layups were at maximum specs. that meant taking bows apart inch by inch with special chisels looking for any weakness in adhesion or materials. bear, shakespear, pearson, earl hoyt, all had people that started out with their designs for their "custom" bows. i really do not remember any custom bow that was copied by any major bow company.

While your here Larry let me thank you and your crew at Yakima, every time I string one of my Howatts up it brings a smile to my face and puts me in a good mood. Bob W.

Have owned many so called custom and production bows. Right now I am enjoying the heck out of a Samick Sage!

Too bad the conversation cannot be an adult conversation with out the mean spiritedness that some are exhibiting. I read these posts and wonder where the bias and animus comes from. Its not the topic its the tude. All that said if I was into knockabout bows I would not even build it myself. I would probably order a Sage from Big Jim. They sound like an awful nice bow and I hear nothing but good things about them. This is why you may see a Ford and a Lincoln sitting in the same driveway. I believe it is a good analogy.

God bless, Steve

A good bow is a good bow no matter who builds it. A sorry bow is a sorry bow no matter who builds it. I have some of both. The monkey behind the good bow will show you though. Lol. Arvin

I have had several production bows and several custom made bows. Overall, they have run from decent to great. I am now down to two English longbows that were custom made for me and one Howard Hill Wesley Special that was semi-custom made for someone else. I don't need any more bows but if I did, I would pick and choose from secondhand bows that I could test shoot until I found one that was just right for me and not be concerned if it was custom or production.

If I had it to do over again, I would invest money on good coaching instead of more bows.

Larry and George seem to summarize one aspect of production factory bows well. Where sheer performance is concerned, it would be difficult for a one man custom shop to undertake the kind of research and development that results in some of the higher end production factory bows that win international competitions.

For a different set of reasons, it would be difficult for the same factories to offer the "hold the pickle, hold the lettuce" offerings and multi-stage hand finishes that make a one man shop custom bow so beautiful and unique.

Steve's Ford/Lincoln analogy is a good one - In 1969 Volkswagen produced 1.2 million beetles in its automated factories. They also produced 30,000 Karmann Ghias at a custom coachworks where the body panels were hand welded together and sanded before a sculptor smoothed heated english pewter over them with a beechwood tool to create the car's curves. 5 coats of paint were baked 4 times and hand sanded 3 times.

Both cars had the same engine and suspension, though, and if performance was your most important feature - you wouldn't want either one!

Steve, I was thinking the same thing. But people get defensive of their preferences sometimes I guess.

Got two big bundles of bow wood in the mail today, and I'm going to bid on more right now. Happy Day! Custom Schmustom. Brewhahahahaha :^)

I only read Phils initial post . He is spot on. It's not rocket science. Glass is glass.

There are few differences because they are all backed by glass.

Just for the record, any "production" or "custom" bow is built beyond my ability to shoot it; additionally, the cost gap between "production" and "custom" bows is shrinking. Super Kodiak phenolic is $799.00, a Bear takedown recurve is $849.00, a Buffalo is $799.00 - you get my drift. The Bear Grizzly for has a good price of $379.00 and a Samick Sage is $139.00.

Some custom bows are outrageous in their pricing. Others are not. I believe there is no $1,500.00 bow but there are $1,500.00 customers.

Having said all that, if I am going on a hunt and am going to be dragging the bow across the ground during a stalk, I am not going to take my pride and joy custom bow on that hunt. I need something I can drop on gravel and not fly into a convulsion. Just my .02 worth....

I asked a bowyer whom I have done business with to estimate the time involved in making a custom made bow. He responded by saying that a minimum of 50 hours is required for a basic bow. If the customer desires extra overlays, inlays, etc., the time required increases.

Considering 50 hours labor, and materials costs estimated at $100 to $200, skilled artesian labor at $50 an hour, the cost of a custom made bow seems reasonable.

Nobody has mentioned the arrow.....the third part of the trilogy. A million dollar bow, won't perform with a sorry, 50-cent arrow. When I want to shoot well, I pay more attention to arrow selection (I have hundreds fletched)

If it takes 50 hours of solid work to build a bow I don't see how they keep the lights on.

That does seem like a lot of time. Would love to see a breakdown.

Larry I meant no disrespect. I have heard for years that some bowyers had copied some of Howatts bow designs and claim them for their own. I also know that some bowyers have done alot of their own R&D to come up with their own designs. I have also heard it said that because of Habu bows and some of his designs though simalar (because of the rear mounting and it is only a mounting system, same as the forward mounting system) to Black Widow put pressure on Black Widow to improve theirs. Both rumors, you confirmed the first one. I have had someone I know confirm the second. Like I said depends on how much money and time they have to put into it for their R&D. That is why we have alot of bow companies, it helps with innovation and how things can be done. As I said also some work well and last and some don't. Larry yours have lasted a LOOOOOOONG time. DANNY

Good shooters shoot better with better made bows custom or production!

i sure would not know how to spend 50 hours building a bow! guess if you hang it to dry for 12- 24 hours between coats of finish and counted that? but while the finish is drying i would be working on a few more bows. we had 45-60 minutes in a press, 20-30 minutes tipping the bow out, 30 minutes to rough out and shape the riser, 15-20 minutes to completely finish sand, and then around 8-12 hours total in the finish room, including hand sanding between coats of finish. all those are generous times per job with the exception of the finish. chuck and i could shape , free hand, on a sander made for that purpose, any model bow in 6-10 minutes.

My hat is off to artisans who put their money, time, labor, and skill on the line to create an excellent product. Comrade incompetent might not want us to believe it, but THEY MAKE IT.

Lol, most custom bowyers I know ship 5 bows per week. As they are finishing bows they are working on the next weeks during drying times, etc... 250 hours per week, wow now that's hard at work, lmao.

This bow was glued up one evening, and starting at 9am the next day was ready for final sanding before finish by 2pm. And that included his fitting the bow to my hand and working on 2 other bows at the same time. I watched the whole process and picked the bow up 2 days later.

btw that was a 1 man shop.

I don't hate customs as some might think. I'm just realistic. I own the custom bow above. I call it custom because the fades and tapers were changed to accommodate my draw length. PLus the grip was hand fitted to me. My go to recurve was a so called custom bow I bought used so its not in any way custom to me but came from a big name custom bowyer. The longbow is as fast or faster and shoots as well as my Howatt Hunter or any other bow I own. My recurve won't shoot nearly as well as my Howatt or a few other bows I own but I like its grip and looks. My howatts a 79.

So you see, some small shop bows outshoot factory and some don't. If you look close you'll see that factorys and small shops build their bows the same way pretty much. If the word custom makes you feel better about the money you spent or makes you hold your chest out a little more because you own a "custom" then by all means stick with em. But know your not buying better, just prettier in some cases.

I guess some of you have not seen the thread about Bear bows having all the problems they have been having. Several guys on that thread have sent back two or three bows. Strings not centering on limbs , not hitting the string groove ect ect. The Bear I looked at was really nice though with none of those problems. Few factories can maintain quality consistently. Black Widow being an outstanding exception. However a one or two man show can consistently turn out bow after bow that is faultless. Either that or build another and make it faultless. The problem is that few bowyers actually do that . Get by is not in the vocabulary of the better ones. Every bowyer is different and at different levels of not only knowledge and expertise but commitment and integrity.

there is a story about a trucking company that was looking for a new driver. The man doing the hiring asked a driver how close he could come to the edge of a steep ditch. Driver said about 2 feet. Next driver he asked same question. This driver said I can put her on the edge. Next driver he asked how close can you come to the edge. He said I can put her on the edge but I'm not going to come closer than 4 feet. He hired that man./

God bless, Steve

I predominantly Shoot Customs because of the Heavy Weights I Choose to Shoot Production Bows cannot be made to those tolerances , Someone Pointed out The Old Howatt Plant You are So Right ,I have the 148# Damon Howatt Ventura made in 1969 and its just as Strong and Smooth as it was in 69. Rodney wright had a heavy whoops and I Picked it up because its just a perfect shooter . Cascade and Howard Hill Make Customs and One Offs Too ( though you have to throw cash at them like an ex wife) It all Comes Down To What makes You feel like you're doing great and shooting in the X , Me I Like The Flat Shooting of a Heavy Howard Hill , its Very Forgiving and to be Honest You don't have to be that good the arrows just want to get away from that string in a flat straight line ..

Just picked up a Bear T/D and it shoots as good or better than any custom bow I have owned and I have owned over 600 over the years.

I have a few coustom bows, one is a bamboo Ipebow with a serial number 001. He only made two of them. The other custom bows are self bows, they are all one of a kind.

Don't forget, large scale operations are focused on volume sales, and the employees are often under pressure to meet quotas, deadlines, incentives, etc. Its all about profit margins, if not, the buisness will fail. Hence the investment in design research and advertisement. And with new staff... there is a learning curve. Even after extensive training, nothing but time and experience produces true skill. If quality control doesn't catch a mistake today, unlike decades ago, angry customers jump online to vent, often before giving the company an opportunity to replace a warrenteed defective product. With a small operation, a Bowyer who truly takes pride in his or her skill will go over every detail to ensure a perfect product and a satisfied customer. Of course, there are always customers who, if given a bar of gold, would complain "it's too heavy". That being said, as previously noted... glass is glass. Buy and shoot what you like.

Sixby if small shop bowyers made the number of bows Bear makes you'd get just as many complaints. Some guys can't be pleased.

I've had a longbow that was made by the "best". At 14 months the tip broke off. When I called him he mearly told me the warrantys up. Had another top bowyer make me 2 bows in less than a year. One was great, the other wouldn't tune. The limbs tiller was way off at full draw he said but looked fine at rest. I switched the limbs around and it shot great. After sending it to him 3 times he finally said there was nothing he could do with it. I hung it up at shoots with a sign and let guys try to tune it. One favor deserves another.

I've never gotten a bad factory bow , so you see stuff happens to every bow maker.

I have had a few over fifteen hundred and noticed no difference in performance between them and and four to five hundred dollar ones.. Recently picked up a couple of hatfield take down that are matching. beautiful bows and good shooters. They are also good lookers with red stripe going thru a beautiful wood riser.r

put a production bow in a shooting vise... same with a custom bow...Results will be the same... Ego is a vast and funny thing..We all have one, and some will fight for theirs in denial to the end... Choose your woods, draw weight and prices, My kodiac hunter @ $150.00 will shoot right next to you just fine..

K - Thanks for the insightful message. You learn something new every day.

I have been shooting recurves and longbows for most of my life. I enjoy any bow that fits my style of shooting, factory or custom. I have owned Black Widows, Great Plains, Anderson Skookums, Fox, Bear, Hoyt etc. As of now, my favorites so far are a Great Plains Rio Bravo, Fox Breed and a Hoyt Tiburon. There are great production bows made like my Hoyt. But, there is something about a custom that was made just for you that puts the "magic" into archery for me. I will use myself as a example. I just put my deposit in a few months ago for a Centaur triple carbon, there is a looong wait (12- 14months). This will be the most expensive bow (traditional) I will have bought. Is it worth it? I hope so! Can I get the same in a cheaper production bow? Maybe. If I receive it and don't like it, it will be a huge let down. But if I get it and love it, it will be "My" bow and nobody else's!!! I believe if you are passionate about something, go and do it no matter what the cost is!!(within reason). We only go this way once, this isn't a test run. I am a blue collared working man that shoots competition trap (ATA). For years I shot lower end guns, then moved up to a Browning XT. A couple years ago I was diagnosed with a kidney tumor they found by accident. (Was 40 and in great shape). If they didn't stumble upon it and I didn't get it removed I would have been dead in 5 years. Now I shoot a Krieghoff K80! I guess I went off on a tangent there lol. It boils down to shoot what you enjoy, custom or factory, if it comes down to the holy dollar your missing out on life and stop being cheap lol. I would like to try a new Bear 59' Kodiak soon too!!

Good health is our best investment. My Lyme M.D. Naturopath impressed that upon me the first time I mentioned the cost of good food and supplements. He's 81 years old.

k cummings, think you have it right.the very last thing i think about is whether something is prestigious in any way. i just need an object or animal to perform when i need it to. don't care what it looks like or where it came from, just the utilty factor, no matter what is going on in my life. the things that really matter are my family, friends, country, and personal morals. everything else is just "stuff".

We type away on our foreign made computers about bows being the same. The guys who make these "custom" bows are just hard working guys trying to make a living like me and you. There may be no major performance difference, but what's the point? Let people choose what they want and support the bowyers that are passionate doing what they do.

OK...I did recently take ownership of a custom bow, as I briefly noted early on in this thread.

A Whippen Stick Phoenix take down; 60", 52lb @ my 29" draw. Made to my choice of wood for riser and limbs, and grip.

During the wait list and build time, Ken kept periodically in contact which increased as the bow neared completion. My communications with Ken, with whom I've yet to meet, left me feeling as if I was speaking with an old friend.

I changed my mind at the last minute in regard to final finish, having originally opted for a flat, matte, after Justin Newell posted photos of his gloss finish bow. After exchanging PM's with Justin, he convinced me...and I hesitantly emailed Ken requesting a change to his gloss finish.

Ken was gracious and assured me it would not be a problem...I appologized profusely, not wanting to be "that guy". To which Ken laughed, saying I was not even CLOSE to "that guy".

The bow was delivered right on the time line stated when my order was placed. The finished product exceeds any and all expectations...the workmanship is flawless, the wood grain is jaw dropping, it draws smooth as silk, shoots with zero hand shock, quick, quiet, and my hand just melts onto the grip.

I could not be more pleased and wouldn't hesitate to recommend Ken to a friend, or to order another...in fact, that one piece Phoenix REALLY has piqued my interest.

Bottom line...I'm 62, and have finally reached a station in life whereby I could afford to treat myself to something special...and believe me, that's exactly what I got.

A custom made bow, made in close consolation with the bowyer can be a functional work of art. There seems to be a consensus of opinion that neither custom or factory bows are superior in performance. The virtues of a custom made bow are that the bow is made to incorporate the vision and experience of the archer.

I buy custom bows because they are beautiful. I hunt with a Samick Sage because it gives exceptional performance in a bow that I do not need to be concerned about as I am walking in the woods or crawling through the brush and mud.

I own multiple Wapiti's, a Wes Wallace, a Norm Johnson Blacktail,a Black Widow and many Ben Pearson, Wing, and Fred Bear bows. Which shoot the best? Doesn't matter. I have paid extra to have my name on the riser, but that doesn't make the bow. I love them all. The ones that shoot best are the ones that are shooting a properly tuned arrow. Enjoy a good release and the flight of the shaft.

one of our common production bows.

They were beautiful, Larry, and way above my pay grade at the time. I MISS long recurves. I still have a 68-inch Kodiak Special, and a 66-inch Medalist

Yes, those are beautiful Larry..

Today's bowyers are true craftsmen, no doubt. Their vision and artistry proceeds them. The variety that we have to choose from, in this age of knock-offs and Chinese glut, is truly amazing. And yet, those old classics - the "production line" bows of yesteryear - just speak to my soul. Sweet as they first girl you kissed....

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