I just received 4 pcs of white glass for a project. The streaks are so bad I am afraid to use it. It actually looks like it was raked over with a pitchfork. Can't wait till Gordon's goes out of the glass business so that a new manufacturer can come online and supply some descent glass. Their quality control guru should be shot in the azz with a roll of barbwire.

James

My white legend isnt what it should be

Who'd you get it from so we don't order from them?

If Gordon's goes out of the glass business it will make building glass laminated bows very difficult.

Wonder if 3M will decide that the GLASS for bows is not a niche market? Weren't they the best? Batman

I second JamesV. 2 out of 3 of the last bows I made had length wise streaks. They shoot fine but I put a lot of time in them and when you bring them out of the oven , there is the streak right down the limb. I ordered both from Binghams. Thanks a lot. Sure makes a crap looking bow. Come to think about it I think I had some earlier bug covered with skins.

Keep hearing they are working on it...getting ready to glue one up tonight, sure hope it aint horrible...at least this one is for me so if it is bad Im not making anyone else upset. Think for the next couple of months it is black and brown for me.

I hope you responded to Gordon Glass also and not just here. That is where any fix needs to start. Has anyone asked any of the current bowyers what they are experiencing? Are they making cheaper glass for general use? I would like to hear from bowyers on this as well to see if it's systemic or isolated.

And be careful what you wish for.

Here we go again, we should be darn glad we even get glass made today. I'm sure its as strong as normal just cosmetics. These are just traditional bows we are making. But we expect perfection? Simple is all we are after. Not high dollar works of art that we won't ever use. They've had color issues in the years past. I'm sure the older guys can remember some REALLY bad glass over the years. And I to hope you contacted the glass manufacturer FIRST. Jeff F

I too have spoken to some top notch bowyers in the last few weeks, same problem !! a supplier from one of the bowyers went thru about 80 pieces to find 8 good ones ,, sad ......

Thanks Joe, seems like it is systemic then. Sometimes that happens when there is a lack of competition. I hope they get it fixed.

I made three sets of limbs , carefully inspecting the glass , for one bow before I got an acceptable set. Problem is that I was using the fanciest kOA limb veneers I have ever had and was blessed to get it on the final pair. Now I had two sets of beautiful limbs but with streaks length wise in the glass. They got covered with snakes and sold at a heavy discout. I honestly hate it now if someone wants dark veneers and do everything I can do to talk them out of it. This includes that if there is streaks that they own the bow. Its a real sorry thing but what else can you do. I actually snake skinned one bow just a month ago for one of my customers because of this but no way can I afford to keep that up. I guess steaky glass is better than none but people need to start thinking lighter colors of wood.

God bless, Steve

I would approach this topic with caution and a certain amount f thougt before replies are typed. There are other suppliers of clear glass, go online to search for them. Bow glass is a very small part of most glass operations and most have similar issues with clear glass. It is possible to complain your way out of having the product available at all. It is best served to go to the manufacture with your questions rather than degrade them here. I have tried to respond in a politically correct manner and I apologize if I have offended anyone. And yes I have contacted them on several occasions.

I can promise you someone would pick up the slack if Gordons stopped selling it.

There is a German source of the clear glass bearpaws uses,saw it on Pirates.

By Beier Germany

My newest bow I had made a few months ago I had clear glass on the limbs and the bowyer warned me he was having problems with the streaks in the glass. I ordered it that way anyway , while it isn't bad I do notice them and sometimes wish I had ordered black glass like he recommend . But that's my falt not his because he told me, but still love the bow because it shoots great!

My guess is that instead of hoping for someone else to take up the torch everyone should be contacting Gordon indicating that they are willing to pay far higher prices for good glass...I bet the problem would get fixed in a hurry...3M quit supplying glass in the 60's when they were a much smaller company because there was no money in it for them...I sincerely doubt they would be into a low or no profit niche market with their current sales of their other products

DDave

That's right, The traditional glass market is small compared to thier compound limbs, vibrating conveyor springs and all the other manufacturing products they make. They make a lot of other more profitable products other than bow glass as many of the other suppliers do also. I doubt that they are going to sink a ton of money into the clear glass issue when they have other products that are more profitable to produce and sell.

Gordon's has been working on resolving the problem. There has been no glass delivered in the last month or so. After culling through a run of over 1000 pieces, they were unable to produce anything clear enough to ship. A negative attitude against Gordons will go no where good. If just anyone could step up and produce it, then so could Gordons and they would. No one else here is producing it because they have no desire too. No one is standing in their way. Take a look at the Bear paw glass and you would appreciate the worst piece of Gordons. I have no stock in Gordons other than I have no other avenue for glass. I don't care for the streaks either, but a beautiful veneer covered with a piece of clear glass that has a few streaks is akin to a beautiful woman with a mole on her face. She's still a beautiful woman. Fortunately Gordons will keep trying. If I were forced to go to colored glass, I would just get out of building bows all together. I understand that some of you prefer the colored glass and even though I occasionally build a bow with it, I have no desire to ever hunt or shoot one. What a winch hunt. Last time I checked, no one here is forced to buy their glass. BigJim

i used to get a phone call every year, or a visit from the heads of 3-m's tech dept. to tell me that they are not and will not ever be interested in archery as an industry, for sales. i finally asked them to cease that useless practice. a lot of companies have tried to make bow glass in the past and currently. i don't know of any that were/are successful in meeting bo-tuffs engineering specs. also, state regs prohibit the manufacture of that material in a lot of the u.s.. without gordons there would be a real drying up of supplies.

Interesting info 4nolz!

Thanks for the heads up on the Beier Glass.

I wonder if it's the same company that makes the Bearpaw glass, or if it's a different manufacturer?

From the Pirates post, it appears to be different?

At any rate, I checked out their site and sent them an inquiry.

I'd like to try some out if it is different than the BP glass.

As far as Gordon's, yes they really messed up with this last run.

I was fortunate this past year because I had enough clear glass from the previous batch (that was excellent quality), but I guess this last batch was really bad.

My supplier didn't even want to sell me any of it when I tried to place an order about a month ago. That's how bad it was!

He told me to wait for the new batch that Gordon's is supposed to be working on (which should be coming out very soon).

I think they were going to try to run a better batch this time due to all the complaints they received from the last batch.

So Right now, that's what everyone is doing... waiting.

We won't know if they fixed the problem until after we get the glass and glue up a few bow blanks. Here's hoping for the best! :^)

Its tricky but you can make your own.Its relatively easy to draw glass rovings through a resin bath and and compress it under tension to form a laminate.Harder for me is the ichy bussiness of grinding it to thickness.I still get ichy even with good dust extraction and covering up. I am still getting over my mom passing but I will be laying up some laminates soon.You can make any color you like and even clear.If you can buy it your better off.It can be a pain in the butt.I just want those 50 's and 60' s colors which are not made these days.Gordons commercial set up is beyond my reach but I reckon they will come good in time. OSR

Well said Jim and Larry. Thanks for your valuable and respected input.

I agree with Larry and Big Jim comments we just have to hope that will keep making the product and hope it will improve. Calls to Gordons will not help. This is such a small part of their business

Here is a link to an interesting article about Gordon's. It's an older article, but it still gives you a good idea of what's involved in producing the product. I forgot about all those compounds and crossbows out there. Another revalation was the part PPG plays in making their product possible.

http://arrowtrademagazine.com/articles/nov_07/Nov2007-GordonGlassProfile.pdf

I feel that if a bowyer is aware of a potential problem, the customer should be advised before the build. I don't know if all do but as a customer, I would want to know. I bought a bow new from the bowyer for a decent price and when it came it looked ok but after 2 or 3 draws the streaks appears big time. I called the bowyer and he advised he was having this issue with the clear glass. Had I known of the streaks issue I may not have ordered it only because I know it would have detracted from the bow for me (personally)

I have an idea that a lot of, if not most of the glass used on Korean bows comes from California. It would be interesting to know just how much of the fiberglass goes to export.

As for quality control, crap happens now and then, and Gordon has been doing this business for a long time. I wouldn't never say the don't care...they have to care. Hopefully they will get it fixed relatively quickly.

By the way, there have been instances of streaky clear glass for decades, and you can find plenty of anomalies in glass from the 60's and 70's too, if you look at a lot of bows.

I just recevied a bow from a pretty reputable bowyer that has streaks all through the black glass.I was told of this problem existing in clear glass and that I would not have a problem with the colored glass.Well guess what,I did,the bowyer offered to give a refund,which is what he should do.I would never ordered this particular bow had I known of this.If I were a bowyer,I would never attach my name to a work of art that I took a lot of time to make;it will destroy your reputaton in the long run,not the glass maufacturer.

So what are bowyers to do? Do we no longer order any bows due to the problem? They all get their glass from the same source. Any suggestions?

I have made a few glass bows and lately trying to up the game, My most recent was a bow for my grandson. I used the German glass, and OMG what a piece of junk. All that work and $$$, prime lams and riser wood and accents for that!! I Put copperheads on the back so it looks great from 3 angles.....Today I was out scouting for a new batch of osage staves. Have been getting the same performance from my all wood bows as my glass lam bows lately anyway. With osage you can take the warts the tree gives you and it can still be pretty. Not true with fiberglass.

One of the problems is all your exceptance of this either from the maker or the bowyer!!!!!!!!!!

I better shut up at this point before I say anything I can't take back.

If the bowyer thinks it's ok thats another issue. If the buyer doesn't care then the bowyer doesent care. Another problem there is you won't be able to satisfy a picky buyer, so then what?

To bad right?

Are they the only makers of glass for bows? If so well there is your answer.

I believe the attitude of a couple of folks is the real problem. The bowyer puts out the clear glass over beautiful lams and then gets blamed for building a sub par bow even though the buyer was warned. I have had customers determined to build with a certain wood that I knew would develope checks in time. I built the bows at their insistence and then over a year later they were all screaming for me to replace their bows. My answer was replace their bows or to face them running down my product. I replaced the bows. However I learned a lesson. I will never build another bow using that wood again. Period. Now , I can build a lot of bows without using inferior woods,. However I cannot build a single bow right now without having some streaks in the glass., That poses a real problem when some right here on this thread have even complained about black glass.

I have to be honest. If I did not love building bows so much I would quit right now. However to me the was never about streaky or non streaky glass and I believe some of the bow buyers need to adjust a little to the reality we face at this time. Either you accept the possibility,. of some streaking in the clear glass or buy black glass bows.

God bless, Steve

I would never accept flaws in a custom bow.Bowyers should learn from 20/20 hindsight and stop offering it until its solved.It ends up costing them otherwise.

The last time this happened Bill Howland gifted me a bunch of clear flawed glass.I just snakeskinned them.But I'm not selling either.

Has anyone experienced wavy or uneven white glass on bows that they have ordered recently ? Dave

The reason that this seems to be such a big issue now is because we can talk about it on forums like this.

Like George said, this isn't a new problem. Jack Howard talked about, Rocky Miller talked about it. It happens.

Just for reference, clear class laminates

http://www.bogensport-beier.de/

I can sell a better class of fibre glass made in Germany.Physically it is great. The one disadvantage is that it it is not perfectly transparent. Ask about it via private messages.

It has been happening for years. I have a bow I built in 1999 for my father in law clear glass and yes you can see steaks in it. It is something we are going to have to deal with. I would certainly rather have glass that is sometimes streaky than no glass at all. The last one I used clear glass came out clear as can be even though I was very concerned all ended well. There was an individual a few years ago that would build you glass in almost any color you wanted I almost ordered some. Others who ordered claimed that it was absolutely horrible thankfully I never ordered any. I have never tried the Bear Paw or any glass other than Gordons and have no intentions of trying any other.

Bowbaker, 100% agree here, I have seen it off and on for 36 years in bow building, Blackball list between Bowyers will help with the problem child. ..OE

we were the supplier of 3-m glass for as long as it was offered to the public. i saw a lot of that glass, both in our shop and counted for shipment to other bow companies. their white glass was pretty much atrocious. i have also been to gordons plant when it was in california, more than once, and in colorado one time. bow glass is not simple to make. clear streakfree glass is extremely difficut. i have seen and tried using bow glass from scandinavian countries, germany, france, korea, japan, and china. after all that, gordons is still the best i have ever used.

Larry,

Did you ever try any of the clear glass that was made by Bjorn (from Sweden) back in the '90's?

I was just getting started in bowmaking back then and I never tried any of it, but I had always heard (from many different people) that it was much clearer than Gordon's glass at the time.

It was also more expensive so the price hindered it's sales and they eventually stopped producing it.

I had never heard of the glass from Beier before this thread.

It appears to be a new product?

http://www.bogensport-beier.de/shop/en/material-for-bow-construction/clear-fiberglass-laminate/4551/glass-laminate-clear-for-the-construction-of-bows?c=100443

I purchased some of the German BearPaw glass a few years back (it was really streaky) and I've heard the stuff from Exel (Finland) isn't any better.

If the Beier glass isn't produced by either of those places, I'd like to buy a few strips and give it a whirl. :^)

You never know until you try. ;^)

Honestly, I do have my doubts though...lol

Just read my post, "problem child" did not mean Gordons

If bowyers send it out, they are saying it is acceptable, even if they got a sign off from the buyer. Plus a lot of bows are going to be sold second hand and we will see what they look like, what the warnings are there, and what that does to the maker's reputation.

I do quite a bit of fiberglass wet lay-up and some vac bagging, and I don't really know what the problem is, but given their experience, it must be something terrible to stymie them. I remember reading about tomato ketchup once. They said each batch was a whole new ballgame as they had to be modified to achieve the Heinz taste with every new delivery of tomatoes. For years the real secret was their ability to modify the product with each batch to come out the same notwithstanding the inputs. Hard to see how something like that would affect a place where the inputs arrive in drums, and bolts. Is it success? If the Chinese all of a sudden want 10Xs the material and Gordon built a new line or something...

I ordered 6 pieces of the Beier's glass a few days ago. I will glue up some limbs when it arrives..

Bowlim:If bowyers send it out, they are saying it is acceptable, even if they got a sign off from the buyer. Plus a lot of bows are going to be sold second hand and we will see what they look like, what the warnings are there, and what that does to the maker's reputation

Sixby: I disagree , Nothing less than perfect is acceptable. However no bowyer has the ability to control what glass he is able to get when there seems to be only one quality company producing it. When the buyer is warned of a cosmetic issue which is beyond the builders control then the bowyer is certainly not guilty of building an inferior product. We pay a lot for glass and no way make enough money on the bows to start culling glass unless it is so cosmetically inferior that we consider it unacceptable. I set that glass aside and build bows for children with it. I pick glass that is as streak free as possible for each bow I build for a customer. But little of it is what I consider perfect anymore. I look at bows I built two years ago and not a streak in the glass at all anywhere. Perfect and clear. The glass just is not like that now. Its not terrible but its not glass that is up to my standard. Some is but not much and it is especially true when against a dark veneer.

God bless, Steve

Streaky glass is more likely the poor quality of the glass used and not Gordons process.I once used Chinese fibre glass and the resin take up was very poor leaving streaks in the finish and a dry lamination.When the boss decided to use Australian made ACI glass the prpblem dissapeared. Here is a down hill skateboard I built in 2009 with duel bias glass laminated on top and bottom with vinylester resin.Check out the clarity of the finish.Vinylester resin is not the clearest but even after all this time it is still relatovely clear.I can make clear lams .Here is some pictures of duel bias lamination on my skate board.Bow lams are rovings wet out tensioned and compressed and cured.Gordons methods are more sofisticated but essentially does the same thing

The stiching holding the duel bias weave together can be seen but the wood still shows through OK

Gordon can make a great piece of clear glass, they have done it for years and an occasional problem is expected in any manufacturing operation. This problem they are having now didn't start overnight and they know exactly what is causing the problem but have failed to address it to this point and may never as long as they can sell **** for the same price with no liablilty. What if they had to kick in a couple hundred bucks to the bowyer that had to discount a bow to his customer because of their inferior product? Manufacturers in other sectors do this all the time. It's called standing behind your product with a little customer appreciation.

James

Has anyone tried using Bjorn glass??? Not sure if they are still making it at this time.

James do you seriously expect Gordon's to "kick in a couple hundred bucks"? If they know the problem and haven't fixed it then they are waiting for the flawed supply to be used up.They'd be better selling as flawed at a discount.

They get away with it because you guys buy it. They have a monopoly. That's easy to figure out

They can keep their streaky clear glass. I'm not wasting my wood, time and effort building bows that can't be better than cosmetically defective.

If it clears up, maybe I'll get more. Until then, I'm going to keep making selfbows, sinew, bamboo and wood backed bows. Maybe I'll try the glass from overseas if I run out of the good clear Gordon's I have left and get 'the itch' to build more glass bows.

I'd like to be able to build to the highest level of quality I possibly can. IMO Gordons glass is throwing a huge monkey wrench into that equation. At this point Ive started researching different options.

Unfortunately I think if we keep buying it at sub standard quality.....they'll keep selling it! I just wish there were more competition for them in the US.

What if Gordon stop making it are you all going to stop making bows?You really can make your own lams.It isn't a mystery.Yes it is a pain in the butt .I can press mine under tension with what is essentially a primitave set up.It may or may not be equal to Gordens but I can at least control the quality.It does make a exceptable bow.My biggest problem is my lams need to be ground to the correct thickness.The professional bowyer would find it uneconomical to do it but an enthue past doing it as a hobby would be OK.A lot of things I can't afford in life but with research and determination 9 times out of 10 I usually work things out. Off topic I also skateboard and always wanted a Zephyr skateboard .There were never many made and are now collector items.With research I made a plug and mould and finally a replica board.It is as good as the real ones and I use it regulary.I think I may be the only one in the world making Zephyr boards today. Look into what is possible and give it a go. The other option is go back to horn and sinew. Osr

There are many things we can back bows with besides glass... including air.

Today I thinned the sapwood on a yew stave and chased a single paper thin ring from one end to the other. It took some time and effort, but it's gonna be beautiful, one of a kind, and best of all... no streaks :^)

we had bjorn over to the shop and tried to work with his glass. i did not like it at all. we never shipped a bow with that glass. most failed during our extensive testing. don't think he is doing that aby more.

Does Browning still own Gordon Glass?I was at a shoot a few weeks ago and noticed the new Bear line up as well as other makers and did not notice any streaks in glass.Could it be that all the high volume Bow manufacturers are getting the first line quality and the small custom builders are getting whats left?

Robertfishes,

Looking forward to seeing what you think of the glass (thanks for posting the info on the Pirates site btw).

I tried to order a few pieces myself several times, but I keep getting errors on their website when I try to pay for it?

I tried the CC and Paypal option, but I couldn't get either payment method to work?

I've emailed them 2 times, but they haven't responded yet.

Please update us when you get your glass.

I'd love to see what it looks like after it's glued up.

"Could it be that all the high volume Bow manufacturers are getting the first line quality and the small custom builders are getting whats left?"

No.

I don't think they care who gets what. They seem to be an equal opportunity offender. :^)

They're just inconsistent with their batch runs, so it's the luck of the draw if you get the good stuff or the bad stuff.

I've had excellent quality glass, and I've had some of the really streaky stuff as well.

I still have a bunch of streaky glass left over from several years ago that I can't use. I definitely don't want to buy anymore if I can help it. :^)

Well I've got a question then. Is there anyway to tell if the glass is streaked before the layup? Just built a bow with clear glass looks fine to me. Never even heard of this problem till I seen this thread.

Use to use RH over carbon on my longbows in the 90's. Streaky as all get out, but it was light and dark tones of grey. Looked like "tree bark"!

browning has never owned gordon plastics. i have known every member of the gordon family from the mid fifties on that has been involved with gordon composites. mike is leading the company at present.

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