7. Vintage Hunter (VH) a. Recurve or longbow wood or wood with laminates. Must be shot off the shelf: Shelf must be the manufactures shelf with no build up and can be covered with any material no thicker than 1/8 of an inch. Side plate must be manufactured with no build out other than strike plate material no thicker than 1/8 inch. Vintage Hunter archers will shoot from the white stake. b. Arrows- arrows will be aluminum or wood with feather fletch with minimum 12 inch of fletching. Glue on or screw in tip only. Arrow must weigh 10 grains per lb of draw weight at 28 in. no lighter than 450 grains.

Of all the bows I own I think I have only one that WON"T meet that requirement.

Kind of ironic that your not permitted an elevated rest in a "Vintage" shoot when at least half the time back in the day that's precisely how they were shot. LOL. I

I like the new class...they did good! Regards.

I agree with Big Dog. Good job IBO!

Sounds like a good class to me.

Sounds right to me for a hunter class. I am sure guys get great arrow flight from elevated rests but I have always believed in keeping it simple and if anything can go wrong, it will. For hunting, I like shooting off the shelf. Glad IBO made a class for it.

I want a class for lefties!

I'm with roger. Seems a little odd to me. So if I have a 40lb. bow I can't shoot a 400gr. arrow even though that is 10grs. per pound?

In a word WHY???????

Even back when I started shooting, you know when vintage was modern, the recommended arrow weight was between 7-11gr/lb. Never understood stood 10gr/lb be a such a magical number.

Really vintage would be stick on elevated rests and sight pins. But I digress...lol

Carl

So does that DQ a factory bow where the owner has re-shaped the factory shelf?

My Howatt Hunter was built no later than 1990 and has a relatively high, flat shelf. No sense putting a lot of labor into the shelf if a lot (maybe most?) of the shooters back then were using those little plastic arrow rests that... what was his name? Oh, yeah FRED (genuflect when you say that) BEAR made so popular.... or maybe some new-fangled contraption like a Flipper....

Anyway, despite the fact that it's largely erroneous, I have no real complaint with the idea of requiring people to shoot off of the shelf with minimal build-out... but if modifying the 1990 Howatt Hunter factory shelf to look exactly like a 2010 Howatt Hunter factory shelf is going to get me DQ, they can take their "vintage" class and stick it!

And FWIW... The 10 GPP @ 28" requirement is Pure Crap.

My bows are marked #55@ 28", so I'm obligated to use a 550+ grain arrow, right? But I'm only 5'4" and while I think my DL is pretty damn good for someone my height, I sure don't get the full 28". But let's round it off at 27", and (just for the sake of argument) let's say I'm using a pretty average 7.5" brace height.

So those of you paying any attention whatsoever have by now realized that I'm now NOT shooting 10 GPP because I'm only pulling to #52. And if you use the AMO-standard for draw length - that being valley-of-nock to deepest point in the grip + 1.75" and subtract the 7.5" brace height... 27" - 1.75" - 7.5"... I'm now shooting 10.6 GPP with 17.75" power stroke.

Then let's drag Gary (GLF) into this because he left himself open when he mentioned having a 32" DL... (And because he said "Lol, only people who tell you speed means nothing are the ones who don't get much speed." and because he seems like a pretty good-natured sort)...So Gary shows up at the shoot and forgot his bow... But by some miracle, he's got a 550 grain arrow that flies PERFECTLY out of my bow and we decide to just take turns. But he's drawing 32" (call that #62), so his actual GPP is down around 8.9.

And his power stroke, using all of the same numbers, is 22.75".... FIVE INCHES longer than mine.

So by "standardizing" the equipment at 10 GPP at 28" to create a "level" playing field, we've just handed me a 19% penalty in GPP, while Gary enjoys a built-in 28% advantage in the length of his power stroke.

I don't know exactly how many FPS that translates into, but I'm pretty sure it's a PILE.

It's always funny to see people who've never shot Trad Worlds get cranked up over what happens there.

Hey Ken, The majority of the trad I.B.O. classes always required you to shoot off the shelf. You can use a raised in the R.U. and senior classes.

Clyde

Question would be though....if a person is shooting a bow of less than 45lbs, would they still be held to the 450gr. arrow rule since that was printed by the OP?

There are several classes to choose from the IBO Trad,. Worlds. There will never be enough classes to please everyone, but I think the IBO has done an excellent job trying to include all types of shooters.

I think we need a class called, (Just step up and shoot the dang thing.) !!!

a guess a toothpick under the velcro wouldn't work

"I think we need a class called, (Just step up and shoot the dang thing.) !!! "

I'm for that. I got out of shooting for a trophy long time ago when I figured out there was too many better shooters than me.

I would say that if the rules require you to shoot 450 grains that is what you mean. Just add some heavier tips and you are good to go.

Classes are made and defined because archers want them, not because organizations do. It would be a lot easier for entities like IBO, NFAA, etc., to have just a few. It sure would be more cost effective.

Classes are not bad; they are made to be inclusive...to get more archers involved. And, like golf or other sports, all archers are not created equal...nor is there a level playing field with "just shoot the dang thing." That mindset only works for people who never compete and are not privy to the needs of real competitors for that level field of play.

If you don't compete, then you really should have nothing to say about classes, equipment, or anything else regarding competition. If you do, then you need to educate yourself why classes were started in the first place...over half a century ago.

The minimum arrow weight is 450 gr period. Regardless of poundage.

Per the rules the riser must be factory with no more than a soft piece of leather or velcro not to exceed 1/8 inch. These rules and class was developed tomsatisfy a lot of requests from various groups that wanted it.

If you dont like it, so what. Rules were developed for those that participate, not to satisfy a bunch of guys that do so much better behind a computer with an adult pacifier in their mouth.

Just a curiosity I guess, but where did 450grs. as a minimum come from? I couldn't care less about the shelf/rest, but the arrow weight I do find interesting.

My assumption is that the arrow weight is to try and mimic a hunting arrow weight and eliminate archers shooting lightweight "target" arrows.

Competition breeds classes based on equipment for a fair equipment playing field. This is competitive archery.

I think once you drop the idea, as I have, that 3-D archery is a representation of bowhunting equipment, and accept it as target archery with rules and regulations for fairness of play, it is more acceptable and less unpalatable to the psyche.

We could set up 400 different classes and someone would still say we had it all wrong. Hope everyone can find a spot to shoot.

There's close to 147000 classes to shoot at the IBO Tad Worlds...just come with whatever you got..I promise we will find a class just for you.

Dewayne Martin

So wouldn't 10gr of arrow weight cover all bows and all weights?

I stand corrected in this, Apologies

Sounds like a reasonable rule for a traditional archery competition.

Whittler the rules have a minimum weight 450 grains

30pt buck,I'm with you on this one. After watching people get bentout of shape at shoots over trophies, I dropped out of competing and started paying full price to help support the club then disqualifying myself from scoring just to shot for fun. I was going to do the same at Trad Worlds but after reading the regulations I feel like I would be getting in the way of the serious shooters and decided to stay home. Good luck to anyone that conpetes.

Eddie, Big mistake! You will have a great time. You can do exactly as you planned, shoot for fun. Also, there are other things to do, like the 3 Rivers course you can shoot. Don't see how, after reading the regs, you would somehow think you would be in the way? Friday and Saturday you shoot with who ever is waiting to go out on the course. Might be a couple of selfbow shooters, longbow, or recurve shooters. Write not competing on your cards.

I wonder why they just did not call the class a Hunting/vintage class and put a minimum on the bow weight? Oh well chance of me traveling to where ever or the shoot coming out west are 3, slim, fat, and none.

We did go out west. We began a California shoot two years ago, and a Texas shoot last year. Got CA and TX coming up soon. They wanted a shoot, got the numbers, and we made it happen.

No need to put a weight on the class. The weight of the arrow will drive folks to shoot 40# + for the most part and you can hunt with 40# in most states.

I like the class and may end up taking my hunting bow instead of my target bow. I think the class will be very popular

Jimmy Blackmon, for some reason I missed that shoot in Ca. I just do not remember getting info from IBO and our club is an affiliate of IBO. It is also possible it was northern Ca. and not doable by my self. Anyway I stand corrected. Back to the new class, yes 450 grain min arrow would almost make a person want at least 45# bow. I hope there is sucess with this class and more "hunters" join in. I know how frustrating it can be to promote big shoots and no one shows up.

I don't mind this class but I'd like to see one other where virtually anything goes except stabilizers over 6" or similar. Why? Because LACK OF ACCURACY is arguably the biggest problem in traditional archery. And whether it is releases or sights, if it increases accuracy with recurves/longbows, I think it should be encouraged not discouraged.

Just another reason why I dropped out of tournament archery. An elevated rest is a "no-no"? Give me a break.

Mid America Traditional Tournament

When:April 25th, 26th Where:Austin Archery Club 1706 City Park Road, Austin, TX

Contact: Bob Sarrels: 512-940-3098 Shana Shattler: 409-454-2154

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When: April 17, 18 & 19 Where: Orestimba Field Archers 26166 B West Kelly Rd. Hilmar, California, 95324.

$35.00 for the IBO Championship 40 Targets 20 Targets Saturday Open Start All Day 20 Targets Sunday Assigned Start

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Lodging & Accomodations Hotels are located in Patterson & Turlock. Dry Camping Available on-site.

It is just rules to make the competion fair. There is a class you will fit into for just about anyway someone could shoot a trad bow. There is a class for those shooting elevated rest, stabilizers. This is a "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP" archery tournament. At that level of competion if there were no fair rules there would be no way to gauge who shot the best in a given equipment parameter.

A shooter that enjoys shooting 3-D and may not be into competion will find a class that he or she will fall into. It may not be identical to his or her equipment, but it will be close. If that is a huge issue that archer may want to rethink there equipment choice if making it to the podium becomes a driving urge.

The rules are for a fair playing field again for competition. If you begin to put your own logic to the rules or, try to apply this to what is bowhunting equipment, or what your own personal shooting style is and therefor there must be a class for it, then that I believe is going to lead to frustration as several post represent.

If you are going to compete, you have to follow the rules as they are for that shoot. If you really disagree there is always the option to get active and work to make changes that fit your agenda.

world championship?? The majority of the world might have something to say about that,lol.

No rests and 12" fletch? Half the bows made back then came from the factory with a plastic or feather rest. And NO one shot 3 3" or 4" fletch except people with real short arrows and target shooters. So to be accurate(which IBO seldom is) it would be 3 5" fletch or 15". One more reason to stay away. Another {no child left behind) class

It's not just this tournament, it's many tournaments. If you want to use an elevated rest, sights, small stabilizer, release, etc. very likely it will not be allowed. There is a general mindset to "level the playing field" over accuracy aids, be it a clicker, eleveated rest, etc.

Of course some tournaments do allow these but overall there is almost a mindset to penalize them when we should be encouraging accuracy aids (within reason).

Rick Barbee related an incident to me where an archer was so good using an elevated rest the rules committee implemented a new ruling that prohibited them. I guess he would still be a good shot, but he decided enough of the bs and just quit going.

Well said George D. & Clyde ,and Eddie you are never in the way at TwinOaks. I never have understood the I don't want to score thing, just come shoot and have fun if you don't care about the score that is pretty much what I do. Pappy

What year qualifies as vintage?

I think there is a class that about covers everyone? What's the problem? How many shooters are required in a class? In other words is it possible to only have a few shooters in a class and still be a world champion?

Thanks, Clyde and Pappy.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do have a honest question. Is the dis-allowing of carbon arrows a date-of-invention thing? I would think with the 450 grain min. weight, there wouldn't be any advantage to the carbon arrows (over alum. anyhow). Or am I missing something?

The IBO drew up equipment guidelines for the class based on what most of the members that participate wanted in a class is what I am hearing. Classes will never be a perfect fit for every archer.

My bowhunting set-up from last season was a Damon Howatt-Super Diablo with a rest I made out of a toothbrush and aluminum arrows with vanes. This particular set up is not allowed in competition in Traditional Bowhunters of Texas or to shoot on the 3-D course due to the arrowrest. I have accepted that with that organization. It is just a rule for competition. That is the rules of that organization and the way they want their shoots and classes. I was advised that elevated rest will not be allowed to shoot on TBOT ranges. It is seen as to much of an advantage. I made the suggestion of having an open class that was non- competitive (no-score) and allow people to shoot their bowhunting gear for practice. Of course a trad bow, elevated rest, sights, etc., whatever someone hunts with. I was advised that is not happening.

My mentioned set up helped me to have a banner bowhunting season in 2014, with no animal travelling more than 50 yards for recovery! Vanes are awesome in wet conditions and quieter when stalking thru brush.

Interesting enough, if I was to travel to the IBO Trad World, there is a CLASS for me to shoot in with the setup mentioned. I think the IBO has more of a "fit" of classes for trad archers than many other organizations. The boundaries of the classes are set for fairness of the competition. While some of those boundaries may seem illogical, they have to draw a line somewhere.

The vintage class sounds cool to me, but I would have to shoot in the class that allows the arrowrest. You know that is okay. My equipment is my choice. If I want to be more competitive than I would make a different equipment choice.

rpk,

My understanding is that over the past few years, Recurve has morphed into a class where folks shooting hunting gear have felt left out. This new class was designed to give them a place where they can be competitive and not have to worry about their class evolving into something else. I'm sure it'll be tweaked and tuned as needed in the future, but I think it's a great start.

I don't shoot the IBO but it seems they go out of their way to include everyone!

JRW is correct. The guide lines for this class were put together for, and from input suggested by, people that wanted to shoot there hunting set ups with other like minded, and equipped,shooters.

50 posts and at least 5 are from people who attend IBO shoots and have the background and facts to make a knowledgeable comment ! This has to be a leatherwall record with an IBO thread.

"world championship?? The majority of the world might have something to say about that,lol"

GLF,

The shooters that show up from other countries that attend do have something to say every year, and it's what a great time they have. My new friend Ian from Australia said it was one of the best things he's done on his bucket list. Encarna, her daughter, and the two men that accompany them from Spain every year, really enjoy it. A bunch from Italy all came together in a big motorhome one year. My wife remembers meeting someone from Germany. Also a shooter from S. Africa, and of course, lets not leave out the Canadians. I'm sure there's others I've missed.

There's a reason it's called a world championship. Every trad shooter in the world is invited to attend.

I don't think anyone in the world would argue with our Trad archers level of shooting "world-wide" John Demmer set 8 national records in two weeks last month. His scores indoors without a sight are right at the level of those shooting freestyle limited with a sight. He hasn't shot under a 290 for NFAA indoors in recent history. DeWayne Martin won Vegas Barebow with a recurve shooting against compound barebow shooters. It was the first time since about 1974 that a recurve has won Vegas. Please don't throw out statements if you aren't tracking the scores and shooters around the world.

Jimmy thank you for that information.

I shot the IBO in TN a few years ago so now that is 6 posters that have shot, ha (I did not count).

Like Dewayne said come out and shoot they will find a spot for you. I shot my hunting bow (Black Widow) and my light 3d carbon arrows. I shot with a group of guys that were great to shoot with. Honestly shooting a big shoot like this is not my thing. I went there because my wife wanted to go. I shot pretty good the first day but the better I shot the more pressure I put on myself so I choked and did not place as high as I thought I could. In the end IMHO it is the guy behind the bow more than the bow. When I think back I ONLY remember what I should have done better and I could not tell you what the other guys shot.

To me if a guy is shooting gap, string walking, ILF rig or whatever and is shooting it good then it is more him than the gear. I know JRW and I bet we could switch bows and he would still out shoot me. Of course with those longer than normal arms of his he better use his arrows. Ha

I know this competition is a high level but some guys forget to have fun too. The comradery and skills I felt and saw at the IBO were something I still appreciate.

If there are enough guys that want to shoot that class, good for the IBO to recognize that. For me, if I go back I would shoot wherever, but make sure this time I did not beat myself. I would not expect to win buy just shoot to my personal expectations this time.

In my area I am lucky to regularly run into some great shooters. I see a few top level local guys, JRW and also Scott Antczak and I don't care what they shoot. It is a pleasure to watch these guys shoot at a high level.

Anyhow, if a guy went he would see some top level shooting for sure.

Bill

"What year qualifies as vintage?"

Maybe someone answered this question, but I don't think the age of the bow matters as long as it meets the requirements listed.

It appears to me that I could shoot my 1965 Kodiak or my 2012 Predator.

Sounds like fun.

I know DeWayne can shoot. Some amazing shooters for sure

There are lots of very good shots out there now, that no longer buy in to the "accuracy deficient" excuse, or the equipment excuse that has been used by so many to explain how they shoot,,,,,,or dont

So can anyone clarify for me whether a "factory shelf" can be reshaped without being disqualified?

And if such re-shaping is NOT permitted, can anyone explain to me the rationale behind that? You mean to tell me that I could have a custom ILF rig built with the shelf made exactly to my specifications and that would be "legal" for this class, but filing a little wood off of my 25-year-old Howatt gets me a DQ?

And I'd still like to hear an explanation of how it is that the playing field is "leveled" by standardizing the equipment at a minimum 10 GPP per pound of draw weight @ 28" rather than at the shooter's actual draw length....

Something tells me the guy who came up with that rule must be about 6'7"....

GF, its simple, the rules say factory with no modification., the reason,,,,,because the rules say so.

There has been some vigorous discussion Concerning this, particular by me being a butthead when it first came out. This is what a large group wanted, they asked and IBO obliged.

The shelf thing and the arrow thing is a rule. Not that hard to figure out.

And ilf is not legal for this class by the way

Probably need to retract the last post and get it verified. My understanding was single piece or bold downs, but hey just join the IBO and you can ask directly

Funny funny listening to all the arguing over this new class. 99% of you (and that includes myself) have absolutely no chance of winning or being in contention so why are you getting so worked up over it? I have no interest in attending an IBO shoot so I could care less what classes/rules they make up. Another reason why I only participate in non-competitive "shoot for fun" type shoots.

Everyone that says they don't have a chance of winning and that they only do non Competitive shoots,that's fine come shoot the hunter challenge for fun, Pappys Crew will make it a great course! And I promise the "top" shooters will help you All they can. I learn from them every year! Over the years my daughter and I Have shot with people from 8 or 9 differant countries. You don't have to win to learn and have fun! So come join us and enjoy,but don't Belittle those of us that look forward to this all year. Paul

Squirrel - yeah, rules IS rules, but that doesn't place them above a common sense standard.

"99% of you ... have absolutely no chance of winning or being in contention"

Yeah, that's true... But it wouldn't it be LESS certain if I were permitted to compete shooting 212 fps rather than 164??? This is a TARGET game; fractions of an inch DO matter. That's why Easton is still making 2712s.... (BTW - what's the difference between building out a side plate and just upping the diameter of the shaft???)

I guess the question is this: Is this class intended to be a test of the archer or the bow?

If it's a question of shooting skill, then the rules (logically) should standardize the equipment in some even-handed and meaningful way.

In the strictest sense, that would mean yes, a minimum arrow weight but also a set, maximum FPS limit and that every bow gets chrono tested at the shooter's draw length with the string and the arrows to be used in competition and there wold have to be a rule that such arrows shall not be long enough to extend more than 1" past the back of the bow at the shooter's draw length. Still doesn't prevent anyone from overdrawing, but it would stop anyone from claiming a 25" draw length for testing (with 8" of arrow hanging off the front) and then drawing to 32" on the course. And all bows would have to be tested for speed using a mechanical release.

Still doesn't make it EASY for the shorter-draw archer to keep up with the Big Dogs, but it at least becomes mathematically possible...

I have never participated in any organized traditional bow shooting competition, IBO or any other, but I would soon like to. I have been working on my shooting and form for 2 full years now. Hopefully I am at a level now that I could participate and not make a complete fool of myself.

HMMMMM,

maybe it's a good thing my new ILF Sasquatch isn't cut to far past center.

Lets see:

(Bow) - Wood/Glass laminated take down - check ?

(Arrow weight) - woods = 580gr, aluminum's = 607gr - check

(fletching) - switch back to 4" feathers - check

(non modified shelf) - check

(strike plate material) - less than 1/8" - check

Can I play?

8^)

Rick

GF, its a new class, rules are simple,maint rocket science.

If everything made good common sense, none of us would be here

GF Last year at the IBO world Dewayne Martin had the highest score of ANYONE shooting an ilf bow off the shelf. He is a short armed fatboy like a lot of us. His arrow was barely going over 180 FPS.

Speed is not the golden calf, knowing what you and your bow can do is.

This class, as was stated was asked for by a group of people with specific rules. More of a hunter class than vintage. Most of them dont like carbons and are of the mindset that heavy is the only way to go. No big deal really. I like longbow, I am old so I plan on the senior longbow. But heck, I have rigs for primitive, recurve, modern longbow, in fact I got rigs that will let me shoot in any class I want. Its just a matter of deciding what class, find out the rules and go play

Just be glad they were not a group that liked to mimic Robin Hood and men in green tights

Now BOB, YOU know darn good & well, if there were a class requiring green tights you'd be all over getting into it.

8^)

Rick

gF why do you want to change the bow you bought?

And what Ollie said.

Just someone tell me where to place my treestsnd to kill a deer .,:)

I've heard people talking about a class like this for years. Cudoes to the IBO for accomadating a large section of the hunter mided shooters. Will this class be available in your regional championship events as well?

Bill

I still like the idea of the Heavy Hunter class, but they just never could get enough shooters into it to make it worthwhile. Maybe this one will prosper. I hope so.

Rick

Thanks Paul,I do also Rick,I thought the HH would have done better than it did also. I think this class just might work. Lots of folks that shoot these type bows. Pappy

Agree with assessment that it will be a popular class.....I know I like it and going to shoot in it. Just speculating.....but the demand was there and the Recurve class was big enough to split. I like the distinction they are drawing.....seems like a natural delineation. Regards

I have a lifetime IBO membership, and that strikes as a weird class, but I guess it is what the guys want, more power to them.

Correction. The Recurve and MLB class was big enough to split......keep forgeting about those hybrid things. :o) Regards

Sorry, its no secret I've never cared for IBO since they started making a class for everyone. If you can't shoot wait n they'll make a class so you won't have to compete with any more than 5 or 6 guys. Plus they destroyed the local shoots with fake names like "world Champion" when in truth you shot against more guys at the old local bowhunter shoots. Then they turned their shoots into target shoots. All that being said that class does sound like a decent bowhunting class except one thing. It says vintage and they put an unnecessary limit on side plate thickness when in the old days guys didn't tune arrows, they tuned their bows by changing sideplate thickness. So it was nothing to see side plates sometimes 1/8" or more. Even FB couldn't shoot that class,lol. But it does fit in with the "International Bowhunting Org" having nothing to do with bowhunting or bowhunter classes. Kinda like what happened to NFAA.

I believe the history proves that they do in fact shut down a class when only 5/6 guys participate. Perfect example, the Heavy Hunter and the Women's RU. So, I don't think that is a valid argument. As for destroying local shoots....just plain don't understand that one. Me and the wife try to support all and I don't percieve it to be a problem here locally. As for why I like the new class...I only shoot 1 bow as opposed to the rest of you guys that have an arsenal. :o) The class fits me pretty good and I would suspect a lot of other people. I hope it's a big success! Regards

Stated Vintage Hunter class. Does that mean the hunter or the bow. :-)

Please explain how "they" destroyed local shoots? I've been shooting local shoots for 26 years, and as far as I can see, nothing has changed. My friends and I pay to shoot. Then we walk through and shoot the course. Again, what's been destroyed?

I believe there are only two classes that allow what would be considered target equipment. The ru and senior classes.

No matter what the IBO comes up with for classes somebody ,usually somebody who doesn't attend the shoots, is going to be tearing them down on the internet. I've never seen the need for so many classes and equipment restrictions but I pick a class and shoot what is legal. QUIT WHINING. The performance differences are so small that in the end its only the best of the best where its going to make a difference in the finals anyway. I probably won't be there and neither will most of you. Funny the top shooters aren't the ones complaining about equipment restrictions.Getting beat by 100pts isn't because of the other guy isn't shooting off the shelf. Hybrid longbows can't compete against recurves ? Wow, I just don't see it but some do. If the vintage class is successful and draws more to the shoots I'll be happy I was wrong and maybe even shoot in it someday. I just hope some short armed, senior woman , with a non built up side plate , shooting rebar , has the highest score.

"GF why do you want to change the bow you bought?"

Saph -

It's MY damn bow, isn't it? Shouldn't I be permitted to customize it in a way that helps me to shoot it to the best of my ability???

Now, I’m no expert, but I do know that I seem to shoot noticeably better off of the highly-sculpted shelf of my 15-year-old Bighorn than I do off of the high, wide & flat shelf of my 25-year-old Howatt, which was built back when elevated rests were still pretty much the norm. No sense putting a lot of labor into something that the shooters would never use, right? So they didn't. Except that somewhere along the line, elevated rests fell out of fashion and the public began to demand the same, shapely shelves on their Factory bows that small shops were touting on their high-end Customs.

So which is it? Are By-God Vintage bow shooters demonstrably handicapped by those chunky old “they’re-gonna-use-a-weatherest-anyway” Factory shelves? Or does the configuration of the shelf make no difference whatsoever?

If it makes a difference, it makes a difference.

If it makes no difference, it makes no difference.

But you can’t have it both ways and call it even.

Besides… If “Factory” is the only requirement, what’s to prevent me from customizing the hell out of a “factory” ILF riser, and then asking a custom bowyer to replicate the grip and shelf EXACTLY so that I can have precisely the amount of build-out that I want, without altering the new, “Factory” shelf? And if the two are now identical, what's the difference between the one that was customized BEFORE the finish went on vs. After?

If it makes a difference, it makes a difference.

If it makes no difference, it makes no difference.

But you can’t have it both ways and call it even.

And Bob - "Last year at the IBO world Dewayne Martin had the highest score of ANYONE shooting an ilf bow off the shelf. He is a short armed fatboy like a lot of us. His arrow was barely going over 180 FPS. "

First of all... Show me a cable-free bow that will hit 180 fps shooting 10.6 GPP off of a 27" Industry-standard draw length.

Second... So your position is basically that velocity (and therefore trajectory) has no effect whatsoever on accuracy when shooting at unknown/unmarked distances?? JMO, you'd have a tough time selling that to a ballistician...

Might not matter a lot shooting minute-of-ribcage at 20 yards and under, but if you're going to be scoring line-cutters at 35???

Sounds like you've shot a lot of targets in a lot of competitions.. So tell me; how many more points do you suppose you'd have racked up over the years if you'd been awarded the higher score every time you missed 1/2" or less below the bottom or above the top of a scoring ring? How many more shoots would you have won, or how many places higher would you have placed if the 1/2" Gimme rule were applied to your shots only, while some other competitors LOST points every time they almost missed a ring?

And again, if velocity makes no difference, then why the 10 GPP @ 28" requirement? If velocity DOES make a difference, then why in the hell would any thinking person set up a rule which guarantees a velocity and GPP advantage to anyone with a draw greater than 28" and which guarantees those same handicaps to anyone with a draw length that's shorter?

If it makes a difference, it makes a difference.

If it makes no difference, it makes no difference.

But you can’t have it both ways and call it even.

GF, you dont shoot IBO, you dont plan on shooting IBO, apparently all you want to do is bellyache about IBO

You have no dog in this hunt and frankly your opinion of IBO is of no worth.

Graysquirrel - actually less than "no worth".

GF the rests lost favor when the word trad came along and someone thought they knew better whats trad than what guys used back in the days they were trying to go back to.

I started shooting IBO when they first started and the bowhunter type classes were just that. After many changes away from bowhunter type classes I stopped shooting IBO so yeah I do have a clue what I'm talking about.

Pm Howattman who used to stop in here alot and you'll find out this pic was taken at the IBO triple crown shoot that was held at Triangle lake in about 82-84, somewhere around that time. I shot for a major Archery company back then.

Actually SteveBNY, I was going to say "have about as much use as tots on a boar hog" but the hog would probably get ticked off and start some crap about not scoring unless you use the STAR method

Anyone remember this? A guy with wood arrows and a hybrid longbow beating compound guys with aluminum arrows. This is the possibilities. A given archery equipment setup is way more accurate than any of us will ever shoot it. No matter how fast or slow it is going.

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=197052&messages=3&CATEGORY=9

M60gunner, I have a Thread on California Traditional IBO. I also sent you a message with my contact info and where to find a flyer. We also have a Facebook page at: Western States International Bowhunting Organization. We would like to have you and everyone join use April 17-19 2015 at Orestimba Field Archers range. Thanks Mike Rash California IBO Rep. [email protected] 209-852-2475

Sounds like a good idea. I have not shot IBO but would like to. I have gone to Cloverdale's Traditional Nationals for several years and I can see the reason for the Vintage Hunter class that the IBO has added.

IBO has always had BS rules, this proves my point exactly. Next year they will have a seperate class for bows with black glass. Everyone knows that black glass gives you an advantage.

Hcorrigall, yes he does, as do you, and both are worth about as much as tits on a boar hog. Which to you is about what my comments are worth

For any of you to allude or outright accuse IBO competitors of not being able to shoot with 'the best in the world', shows that you know nothing about any of this. It's amazing how many people come to the internet to run their mouths when all of it can be verified in exactly the same venue.

Gentlemen, time to take a deep breath here. Barebow52 simply posted info about a new IBO class that provides more opportunity for shooters who prefer competing with equipment more related to what they might hunt with. IBO target style classes apparently remain unchanged. It's a win/win...so why all the hate? Thanks for the info, Barebow52.

Whine and moan all you want, but the Trad Worlds at Twin Oaks is still the best event in traditional archery today. Personally, I appreciate all the work those guys put into it.

X2, Tal

This years event is going to be awesome!!! There's going to be ALOT of different things going on than from the last couple of years like the VH Class.

If you're not coming you're truly missing out.

Dewayne Martin

Bob - You know, you just never know... I might be interested in showing up at IBO... But even if I do, I probably wouldn't choose to compete in a class where anybody who knows anything at all about the science of archery can see that the rules proposed for this particular class have stacked the odds against me (or anybody else) before I even get there...

So just out of fairness, I'll ask you again - show me a bow that will shoot 180 fps at 10.6 GPP and a 27" draw. If that's as fast as Dewayne's bow is, it's clearly fast enough to win, so I'll go out on a limb and say that's fast enough for me... I'm just not sure that such a bow exists.

On the other hand.... If The Champ is shooting 180 fps, why can't I tune my own rig to exactly the same velocity? Hell, if arrow velocity isn't the issue, why don't we dispense with the GPP requirement and let people shoot as fast as they want??? If it's "fair" to REQUIRE me to shoot a SLOWER arrow than ANYBODY else, then surely it's just as "fair" to ALLOW me to shoot a FASTER arrow than EVERYBODY else. If somebody's gotta be slowest, then somebody else gets to be fastest, so why can't I choose which one I want to be??? Especially if - as you purport to believe - it doesn't make any difference in the first place...

Seriously - I don't care whether you think my "opinion" is worth SQUAT. I just want to hear a logical defense for applying a "minimum" requirement on a sliding scale.

And Dewayne - I guess I should say that I'm sorry your name got dragged into this, but I WILL say that I sincerely hope to be able to see you shoot someday.

GF, not a problem....come to the Trad Worlds and we'll shoot the hunter challenge together...guaranteed to have a blast.

Dewayne Martin

GF. What I truly dont understand is this. There are multiple classes. The rules for each one is stated pretty plainly. If you really want to match somebody, shoot the same equipment he does. if not, then figure out where you can fit in. Surely you have a bow that will permit you to shoot in one of them. I do, in fact I have a bow for each class.

The logical defense Of the minimum is this,,,,Its the Rule, period. Nothing more is needed.

And I am glad we both agree that we are both full of it, anyway I am pretty sure at least you are.

Now that's an idea Matt! they could make a class for each draw length so everyones shooting the same speed,lol. Sad thing is if they could figure a way to they would.

WOW, still going. See yall in July. Pappy

Yup , we must strive to make it fair when GF with his 27in draw has to compete with GLF and his 32 inch draw. We need to make sure every station has some blocks for the short to stand so they have the same shot angle. Gotta be "fair". WE should probably have 2 targets at each station so left and right handers got the same shot too. Gotta be "fair." I hope the mens room has high and low urinals too. God didn't make life fair but the IBO will ? When the tall maximize their equipment and the short maximize theirs the tall still will have an advantage in most physical pursuits.

this is great news... wish they let us use weather rests or feather rests however

Being that I'm short, and shoot left handed, I've never been at a disadvantage at the I.B.O. World shoot, only at local shoots.

I'd hazard a guess that that 50% or more of the people who go these type of archery tournaments are bowhunters. I'd also believe that the biggest single problem in trad. bowhunting is the accuracy issue.

If you accept those two premises, logically it would seem many if not most of these tournaments should accept pretty much anything that trad. bowhunters use to bow hunt with, whether it be sights, releases, stabilisers, clickers, etc.

The penalty should be on inaccuracy and inaccurate bow set ups. Not the other way around. Why should shooting off the shelf be the gold standard, when an elevated rest arguably is better? If people want to shoot off the shelf, that's great, but an elevated rest should not be penalised. In fact it should be rewarded if it is indeed more accurate!

And so on for other accuracy methods/equipment within reason. The positive from this extends beyond the tournament paper targets, when bowhunters are in the field shooting at living animals. If anyone really does have a better and more accurate method, or a more accurate bow set up, that's great news. Why these committees keep on supporting a levelling of the playing field is a mystery to me. They have it entirely backward, IMO.

You are just a stoic Clyde. You didn't even seem to mind the heat at Twin Oaks while we were dying in our little popup next to you.

lmao swamp!

With barebow and other trad shooters shooting off the shelf and with rests knocking down 295 and better scores, the "accuracy " mantra does not hold water.

I'm all in.

Wanna shoot real and honest competition???????????Go to the ASA

LOL JamesV you're kidding right? Seriously, are you kidding? I am friends with the guys the run the TRAD side of ASA but if you go to an ASA shoot there is only one traditional class. You know this right? So you'll have to shoot your longbow agains an aluminum riser with a long stabilizer. Now, the targets are close so it helps a little but in terms of equipment it's certainly not a level field unless you shoot with a 70"receiver with a stabilizer. But, I'm sure you were just jerking our chain.

Got to love this, I know I do. Looking forward to seeing all you folks again no matter what class you shoot in, also by the way I resent that short joke,I have never felt disadvantaged. LOL.

JamesV,

Tell us you forgot to put LOL or a smiley face at the end of your post, because that's a joke right? I have shot the Metropolis shoot a few times, but only because it's close to where I live. I would never travel to one. The A.S.A treats the trad division as an after thought, and would probably be happy if no one showed, so they could drop the trad class. No class for women, cubs or youth. Everyone lumped together in one class.

I promise no more sarcastic remarks about the draw length challenged and their complaints. It would take a 10" block to get me the same view of an uphill alligator as a JRW and I don't want to have to balance from that .

For bowhunting oriented tournaments, I'd favor a traditional class (any arrow type any rests no sights nonmechnanical reseases) and an open class. No special classes for longbows vs. recurves.

For the open class I'd favor reasonable restrictions such as stabilisers 6" or less. It should be for bows that realistically are used for hunting but IMO should be open for any type of release, rest or sight). Just two classes, pretty simple.

Say it better: "traditional class (any arrow type, any rests, no sights, nonmechnanical releases OK)...

I believe the open class, for either trad or compound, was set up for people shooting target equipment, and they shouldn't be excluded from a shoot because their choice of equipment might not be what someone else thinks is not realistic hunting equipment. Not everyone that shoots 3Ds hunts.

What about selfbows? They have to shoot against recurves and modern longbows?

I was prepared to let this one die, but since it came back up....

"III. EQUIPMENT A. Grains Per Pound And Arrow Speed 1. Arrows must weigh at least five (5) grains per pound of the bow’s maximum shooting weight unless the archer’s equipment qualifies for the exception set out in Paragraph 2 below. Shooting weight is defined as the bow’s maximum draw or thrust weight, as set up at the time of competition. A variance of two (2) pounds of draw weight shall be allowed for bow scale variation. Equipment qualifying in this paragraph (III.A.1) shall have no limit on arrow speed.

2. In the case where an archer’s equipment, when shot at five (5) grains per pound, does not generate 290 fps, that archer may shoot arrows weighing less than five (5) grains per pound. However, equipment qualifying under this paragraph (III.A.2) shall not exceed an arrow speed of 290 fps. A variance of three percent (3%) will be allowed for chronograph variation."

Just sayin'....

Sounds great to me. Hopefully, more classes (especially like this one)will create more interest and participation.

Got a bow on the way that will work. Just got to figure out alum arrows now :^)

I like the idea of this class, I would probably call it a field bow class instead of a traditional class or maybe bow hunters class. I am doing a similar thing in a flight shooting class I am working on. I have been calling it trad class but think I will switch it to field bow class.

"I believe the open class, for either trad or compound, was set up for people shooting target equipment, and they shouldn't be excluded from a shoot because their choice of equipment might not be what someone else thinks is not realistic hunting equipment. Not everyone that shoots 3Ds hunts."

Yes, you're right. So just three classes, we could call them traditional, hunter, and open. Open is where pretty much anything goes as long as no wheels.

"What about selfbows? They have to shoot against recurves and modern longbows?" A big shoot could have a class for that plus wood arrows.

Greysquirrel, why do you always come in with your negativity? We're just having a friendly discussion here.

You are right David, an apology is owed. I have been guilty of being an obstruction to the original poster and those that have tried to keep the OP's original post on track. So for calling out those that tried to highjack this thread and being a pain to those that did not, and especially to GF, I apologize.

Now the subject is " A new vintage class at the IBO's lets keep it to that

From your rude PM, your apology is clearly insincere. You really need to calm down. And stop trying to put threads in a straight jacket. Threads are organic and have laterality in most cases. This makes them less boring than trying to wall them in as you seem to wish to do.

I can sense a new book in the works. "Traditional Tournaments - as the should be". Publish date - 2025.

Let's just hope traditional. archery is still thriving in the year 2025. I am quite optimistic that regardless of tournaments which make accuracy advances illegal, accuracy will always be lusted after.

So is my self bow that I made and the side plate is 3/8" out from center legal?

Yep JimBow as long as it has no backing and you must shoot wood or Cain arrows. Pappy

There is a self bow class at IBO Trad events !! Just Sayin

Yep, a true selfbow class now. Pappy

Thanks Kurt. I just reread some of this,to funny.3 weeks and closing. Pappy

Let's do like Little League and give every participant a trophy for participating. That should make everyone happy!

You think so Ollie.LOL Pappy

Ollie, I agree with you sentiments. Performance should be rewarded not attendance. I just find it somewhat strange that accuracy with longbows and recurves is so often penalized by making more accurate methods or improvements illegal in trad. tournaments that are often bowhunting oriented.

This is unfortunate, because accuracy or rather lack of it is arguably the biggest problem in traditional bowhunting.

You guys kill me! The IBO simply took a couple of its classes that were way over participated (compared to the others) and made a natural delineation of how to split it (a delineation a lot of people recognized and felt needed to happen anyway) and created a new class that embodies and appeals to many people (I am one of them) as to why they shoot traditional anyway. It was a no brainer decision IMO and I believe will hit a home run....way to go IBO! I also find it amazing that most of the people who complain are the ones who have never attended. Internet experts.....amazing! Regards

I am coming and I will shoot selfbow class and be happy!!! Arvin

Well said Big Dog, also I find it funny that if they happened to attend they would probably be the first to complain that some was shooting a bow or something on the bow that gave them an advantage. Just can't win in this. I really really try to be cordial with everyone and encourage all to attend that will and have some fun, but if you are one of those that just can't abide with splitting the group with as close as possible the same type equipment then you should just stay away and be happy you showed us how Traditional and straight thinking a person you are. NOT LOL. Really sorry for the rant but MAN enough is enough. I am with you Arvin I will shoot where ever they say I need to be and be happy and have fun shooting my bow and watching arrows fly. Pappy

What Big Dog said. Sheesh, some people will whine about anything.

Guys this is mostly hog wash. James hicks shot a 539 in 2012 trad world to win primitive with a air backed selfbow.! Calvin smock shot a 573 to win the longbow class . With a twenty first century . Not that much different in scores. It is the monkey behind the string. So if you suck like me quit bellyaching go shoot and have fun if you know how. If you don't come shoot with me and I will show you how to compete poorly and still have fun. Arvin

Kurt I don't know you and you may be pulling my leg. But I bet you can find someone at twin oks that can build one. For sure if not during IBO shoot you can at the Tn. Classic. Arvin

Back up. Pappy

I'll be there if the creek don't get to high! Lol Arvin ps I am supposed to bring money.

Yes you are Arvin and I think you will be safe with the creek. Big Striper I know just the place we could probably make that self bow dream come true.Ya Clavin is a all right shot I guess as far as nice guy,not so sure on that.LOL. Pappy

Yes we do Kurt and thanks for all your support. Pappy

OK...I read thru this entire thread...and my head hurts!!!

Go, or don't....much ado about nothing?

Sounds fun to me...I'd attend if I could...just for the experience if nothing else.

Rick just go that way you can't be sorry you didn't . Arvin

Back up!

Thanks guys/ 9 more days. Pappy

A week from today. Pappy

How is the poison ivy? Probably plenty I guess. Deb ask me to have you remove all of it if you can. Lol Arvin

Not to bad if she stays on the trails, I am sure she don't miss so she should be fine. It don't bother me so I don't pay much attention to it but haven't heard any complaints. See yall in a few days. Pappy

Arvin poison ivy bothers me a lot and I do miss often enough and I have never gotten poison Ivy at Twin Oaks.

now Chiggers are another Matter spray or itch your choice ;) they don't have a can of permanon at the registration window for nothing.

sketters very rarely but sometimes, but chiggers and a few ticks for sure.

gm.

I have been shooting competition with a wide range of weapons for many years and I can say that a lot of the time "rules" are designed to limit the competition and protect a few local shooters. Maybe not so much on the national level but certainly at some of the club sponsored events.

James

Speaking of chiggers -- a reminder: Don't sit on the grass when watching the afternoon events...

Ain't nothing a chigger likes better than a unprotected Yankee sitting on grass...... 10 days to two weeks of itching and maybe a ride up north to help populate the rest of the world!!

we call it our wildlife relocation program take all you like!! ;)

gm.

Kurt, Go to IBO.net. Go to tournaments and click on trad tournaments. Top left says 2015 traditional rules. Click on trad rules and scroll down to Vintage hunter class.

Can we borrow the one on your head?

Pappy,

Can you tell me if the Hunter Challenge course will be available on Thursday? We are arriving Wednesday and thought it would be fun to do Thursday!

Thanks!

Jeff

I'm pretty sure it's not.

No sorry,it will be Friday morning, we will have the practice bails up and ready, but no one to man the other courses until Friday Morning.See yall in a few days, I will be mainly off line from today on ,so any questions call 615-456-5961. Pappy

Back up.

Does anyone know if there a "Trade Blanket" at this shoot?

I would bring a few things if there is.

Thanks

There are vendors of all kinds . Don't know about trade blankets. Might work. Kenny Cartwright will trade for most anything. Arvin

HOLY COW ! Are we/they (except for pappy) all nutcases/pains or what ?

Sounds like fun anyway/because-of :-)

Dragged back up because I wanted to know more about goings-on at Twin Oaks and about IBO.

Still not clear about Twin Oaks...looks great, but is it IBO- whatever only or is it a mix of IBO and 3-D, and does anybody shoot there just for fun (i.e. when cruising through TN without any competition in mind?

Sounds like IBO-trad is taking itself too seriously, maybe forgetting the fun part. Sounds like people with maximum-tech recurves are wanna-be trads. Sounds like "trad" in IBO (or at Twin Oaks?) means geezers like me, and geezers-lite (i.e. "boomers."

Maybe somebody who always has fun at Twin Oaks shoots will clarify ?

In my world, among Navajo, there are lots of teens (especially girls) and "milennials" but in biligaana (white) world it's old folks/boomers.

.

jk, i have shot in the vintage hunter (now trad hunter) class since it's inception at the worlds. to answer your questions:

"Still not clear about Twin Oaks...looks great, but is it IBO- whatever only or is it a mix of IBO and 3-D, and does anybody shoot there just for fun (i.e. when cruising through TN without any competition in mind?"

Yes

"Sounds like IBO-trad is taking itself too seriously, maybe forgetting the fun part."

No.

"Sounds like people with maximum-tech recurves are wanna-be trads. Sounds like "trad" in IBO (or at Twin Oaks?) means geezers like me, and geezers-lite (i.e. "boomers."

No. and further more would say that you are basing your opinions on pre- conceived assumptions.

My own personal experience is I love to compete but that never supercedes having fun. Worlds is a blast!

The only way you will overcome your incorrect assumptions is to attend one.

Regards

The Tenn. Classic at Twin Oaks has nothing to do with the I.B.O.

Big Dog, one of the reasons hostility develops on threads like this is that some folks enjoy hostility (as in this long 2015 thread).

I don't have "opinions" or "assumptions" about IBO or Twin Oaks because I know nothing about them, beyond a few Youtubes (good) and threads like this (not so good).

I asked questions, doing my best to appreciate IBO and Twin Oaks despite the squabbling.

Clyde, which of the Twin Oaks shoots are non-IBO?

Twin Oaks is awesome place to visit and shoot. I've been going there for 20 years. You can shoot for fun or competition which inclueds their club shoots as well as the IBO. You can go there at anytime and see selfbows being built, vintage and new bows being shot and also watch the archery snipers in action. They cook the food and the prices are resonable, well below some other big shoots. The practice range is great, out to 50 yards i think. The surrounding hills and limestone bed creek are beautiful. You should check it out sometime.

fwiw I hope to shoot IBO next spring (after the mud lets up) to learn something new... but my main game will remain 3-D.

Thanks Kurt/big-striper! Sounds great for 3-D and I'm sure one of my longbows would equal a 21st century (though the shooter, me, might be a handicap).

The first thing would be to realize "traditional" is a bigger gene than what it's considered in some minds around here. Folks were shooting sights in NFAA competition starting in 1952, and in NAA competition well before 1930. So one's self asserted "that's not traditional" usually is meaningless rhetoric.

George, "traditional" is a goofy distraction that springs from desire to squabble.

I shoot one-piece (except for folding Great Northern) wooden bows with carbon arrows...formerly (and maybe again) with Sitka. I avoid beer from cans, too, unless somebody else is buying. That's what I tell folks.

If IBO provides a convenient opportunity to shoot Sitka or Chundoo or carbon I'll be interested to give it a shot.

The rules I've read raise questions and questions will always irritate somebody. Me, I don't have answers or opinions ..

That should read genre not gene. Can't blame spell check either.

there should be an instinctive class and a gap class. it would be impossible to police this... not that I care. I don't compete. I attend 2 shoots a year. and shoot for fun. but just MO

You want classes that would "be impossible to police"?

stevebny, do I want a class that is impossible to police...NO. that's why it will never happen. but in theory if every person "were" honest and followed the rules I would prefer it.

Just wanted to tack on and say I still concur with my original post a couple years ago. The Vintage/Trad Hunter Class is a great class and fits me to a tee. I have always shot my hunting bow and setup at 3Ds....this just formalizes it for me and gives like minded people a class to compete in. Way to go IBO! Regards

By the way, competition is not a detriment to any other aspect of archery, and that includes bowhunting. Some folks have a silly notion that if you are good at targets or 3D, you must not be a good hunter. I'm not sure where that came from but it's certainly gibberish, as some of our own here can attest. Never got into IBO since I'm not a big 3D attender. I do love my field archery though and take in the few shoots we have in our region here in SC/SW Pennsylvania.

I became a much more effective bowhunter when I became a better field round shooter, and the competition can erase those "ifs" that people tend to carry around. You actually only have your own psyche to beat, not anyone else. And that tinge of competition is useful too when you are faced with a shot in the hunting woods, because you are in competition there too...with both yourself and your game.

I do think it is funny that techniques that are written off as not as good are also considered 'cheating'. If that is the case, you are admitting that it is a superior way to hit the the spot you intended to hit.

Geeesss Just come if you don't have fun I"ll pay for your gas !! Cal

I'm an old "Vintage Hunter" shooting 54 to 57 year old bows so no problem to me. My wife's chicken fried steak and peach cobbler, plus the cost of a tank of gas is reason enough to stay home.

The World shoot is the only shoot held there affiliated with the I.B.O.

Clyde, I'm afraid I'm confused by all the organizations, classes, and rules chatter.

This was posted at the top of this thead:

"7. Vintage Hunter (VH) a. Recurve or longbow wood or wood with laminates. Must be shot off the shelf: Shelf must be the manufactures shelf with no build up and can be covered with any material no thicker than 1/8 of an inch. Side plate must be manufactured with no build out other than strike plate material no thicker than 1/8 inch. Vintage Hunter archers will shoot from the white stake. b. Arrows- arrows will be aluminum or wood with feather fletch with minimum 12 inch of fletching. Glue on or screw in tip only."

Do those rules apply? To what class?

No 3" 3-fletch Must be "manufactured" : i.e. not just made by some guy? No rug rests (must be 1/8" or less) No build-out to adjust spine No carbon or fiberglass but aluminum OK (!)

Am I reading those rules corrrectly?

Cal...I make it a point to have fun :-)

Tell us about the 21st in that video..and about your arrows..and how many longbow shooters were there? etc.

I like a specific class for "Vintage Hunter". But bring the arrow weight down to 400 grs so I can use my 1816s and cedars with my 41 lbs Steve Abbott Longbow!

I really like to see a class like this throughout including Indoor. I would certainly enter them.

JK, there were only 8 shooters at the Open Worlds this year. There are 30-40 come to the Trad Worlds. I am shooting a 21st.Century Edge 2100 riser 70 in 50 @ 28 limbs are Bamboo and carbon my arrows are POC from Lost Nation 11/32 barrel tapered to 5/16 3 in fletch with Top Hat 70 gr. screw on points they weigh an ave of 365 gr's This set up shoots 194 fps my point on is 28 yards my close gap is 7 inches and I just gap up to point on which is our max. I hope that you had a chance to watch the Vid from Tradtips The IBO Masters it's on youtube. Hope I was of some help to you and anyone else that may want to shoot IBO or ASA everyone is friendly and you will enjoy your time spent at any of them !! Jump on my face book or CD Archery's sites there are many pictures of many of these shoots. Cal

Thanks Cal! I'm attracted to the opportunity to make wooden arrows again, though I'd be afraid to shoot them in our rocky world. POC gives up quickly around here.

I don't understand "This set up shoots 194 fps my point on is 28 yards my close gap is 7 inches and I just gap up to point on which is our max."

How can such a fast setup give you point on @ 28 yards with a "close gap" of 7 inches. What do you mean by "close gap?"

Sounds like you're doing some serious crawl..?

I'm trying to compare to my normal split finger 3D setup with a carbon Sentman 60# 66". I wonder what I'd have to change to play around the edges with guys like you :-0

Cal doesn't crawl. Not allowed in the lb class

By close gap I mean shooting like 10 yards . I shoot 3 under with high anchor and high nocking point 3/4 - 7/8 . hope this helps . Cal

JK I will be in Paris Tx. April 7,8,9, at the ASA shoot if you can make that and shoot with us that would be great. Cal

So with this new class, am I understanding this correct that the bow can not have any glass laminations?

jk - speed doesn't reduce gaps. Speed keeps the gaps more consistent for a longer period of time. So, if I shoot the same trajectory (aimed at the exact same point on the horizon) and shoot an arrow from a bow shooting 165 fps it will lose speed faster and being to fall quicker. If I shoot an arrow 195 fps, it will stay up longer.

So, as I explain in one of my videos, there is a relative flat spot, in the trajectory. It's not perfect because the arrow is never perfectly flat, but it stays "relatively" flat in flight. You want that flat spot where the majority of your target distances occur.

If you combine speed (flat shooting arrow) with a high anchor like Calvin or Dewayne, you get a deadly combination. The point is very close to the spot you are shooting (minimal gap) and the arrow is flying flat and fast.

Hope that helps.

Sight class with same rules would be super

Demmer, Cal, Jimmy...thanks...eye opening explanations. I'm going to try immediately to dedicate a bow to that concept/

Cal...Paris TX seems do-able :-)

Jk

It's also a function of tipping the trajectory forward. Aiming down more than up. By pulling your point on in with the high anchor/high nock, your close gap is reduced as well.

If your point on is 35-50 yards using split and or lower anchor, your gaps increase quite a bit. If your point on is short because you are shooting heavy arrows out of a slow bow split with a low anchor, your gaps will still be big

Kurt...I'm old and kinda slow, and New Mexico's rustic, backwoods 3-Ds have been my idea of rewarding so far (partially because I ranges that challenge me physically)...do the ASA/IBO whatever rules change drastically every year, or just every week?

What's your 3D setup like? JK

Great post, thanks Calvin for your inputs...really great that we have longbow guys in there. You're shooting on behalf of many of us LB shooters!

Kurt,

Thanks for the clarification on the glass. That seems like a nice class, pretty much shooting hunting weight arrows. I shot primitive class one year with a BBO but felt like some thought my bow really didn't belong in that class. July is a long ways off so hard to tell which class I'll shoot, I've shot in nearly every male class in the IBO over the years.

JK PM me around April I'll be glad to shoot with you. Cal

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