Check this video out. I just love this stuff. Anybody else every day dream about chasing down a herd of buffalo on a half wild stallion? Lol I'm no horseman closest I get is on my 750 but man do I dig this kinda thing.
I used to ride a lot but I no longer have any interest in bouncing around on the back of a horse. I even have a horse and pay to feed the big hey burner. I just don't ride him anymore.
messign around with that now. Takes a lot of trianing. Just brought in a half Frasian/Morgan and started the process. You cannot just jump on a horse and away you go. My husband tried that once and it did not go well for him. OKnce the trainng is completed it will be a blast and a great reason to buy a shrew . i am even thinking this years hunting season for deer around here out on the trails.
I've never tried shooting a bow off of a horse but I spent about half my working life as a full time farrier and I've done just about everything else in the horse business at one time or another.
What I do know is that shooting the bow is one thing. Training and riding the horse is another.
There's an old saying in the horse business..."Shorten your reins and lengthen your life." If you let go of the reins to shoot your bow, all bets are off. LOL
I know they do it but it isn't something that I'd recommend for the novice horseman/person. Novices manage to get their necks broke around the barn and on Saturday morning trail rides on horses that are broke to death.
Horses are expensive propositions of time and money but man-o- man, there's nothing like one!
My former wife and I had a 6 year old Arabian which, the summer before we divorced, I spent beginning the horse archery training routine. A LOT of ground work in the ring, which I loved! Builds connection and dominance in our herd of two, especially free lungeing. Also on the ground, getting him used to the sound, look and feel of bow and arrows. The sound and feel (on his neck and ears) of fletching, string thrum, always when he's calm and happy. Got to the point after 3 months that I could shoot with him very close by and he wouldn't so much as flinch. A slow, day-by-day process. We couldn't afford him after our divorce so that's as far as I got with horse archery. When I think about him (his name is Isan), like now, I miss him terribly.
I did horseback archery,about 37 years ago.It wasnt because i wanted to do something cool or start something,it was more for personal research and knowledge of the how and why my ancestors,did things the way they did.I never gave it any thought,to bringing it back then or anything like that.Had plenty of other things to do horseback,that i got paid for.Spend more time under them than on em anymore,but thinking of changing that a little lately.
Like above I spent quite a bit of time on top. I have done some "dog and pony show training" as well just for fun. my last guilding would bow, lay down, and let me shoot my rifle off his side while laying. I did this just to see how far I could take him as well as myself. We also plowed and pulled logs all with the same horse. Yeah, I do miss him, and now that I am into traditional archery I think of all the neat things I might like to try.... And then I remember they are VERY expensive yard art if one doesn't have a good use of it. You just end up wasting a good bit to feed it. -Bones
If you want some interesting history on the subject, read up on the Comanche Indians. They were masters of horsemanship. Started riding horse before they could walk. An eight year old boy could pick up a full grown man lying on the ground at a full gallop! I don't remember the exact number, but they could shoot something like 40 arrows a minute. They could shoot many arrows into the air before the first one hit the ground. All of the archery stuff could be done while on horseback - at full gallop!
I'm going to agree with you that some of that sounds pretty far fetched, but wouldn't it be something to be able to sift out the reality from the legends?
I'm just thinking.... Predators can only make a kill when the single out a particular animal within the herd... Seems like a good cutting horse might have the right stuff to hunt buffalo... or at least that's a good starting point, maybe....
"Lowcountry you have no idea what you're talking about."
Maybe. I read it in a book and wasn't alive to see it firsthand. I'll try to look through the book tonight and post the exact figures, book title, and author.
The Comanche started losing it when the Texas Rangers started using the Patterson Colt. Their old method of the 'magic surround' didn't hold up anymore when the Rangers started charging them with the five shot colts. When former Ranger Sam Walker went back east to order more of the colts for the Mexican War, he found that Sam Colt was bankrupt and didn't have any more guns available. Eli Whitney's grandson was approached by Colt and Walker and started making he new revolvers in his factory. The rest is history.
Training your horse is the most important thing I think.I could drop my reins and still have good control my horse at full gallop.I used an Australian stock saddle as these have thiegh pads one can lean into to steady your self whilst shooting.My only mishap was to drop my bow to have my horse trample it. OSR
Page 33 - After a quoted passage from Catlin describing their horsemanship at "fullest speed", the author wrote
"Thus positioned, a Comanche warrior could loose twenty arrows in the time it took a soldier to load and fire one round from his musket; each of those arrows could kill a man at thirty yards."
That is direct quote from the author who cited a source.
Also on page 33, the author wrote
"Children were given their own horses at four or five. Soon the boys were expected to learn tricks, which included picking up objects on the ground at a gallop. The young rider would start with light objects and move to progressively heavier objects until finally, without assistance and at a full gallop, he could pick up a man."
Buster V. Davenport is correct - the repeating pistol started their downfall. Small Pox, Cholera, etc. really speeded up their downfall, along with their inability to tell the difference between a battle and a war. The biggest reason for their downfall though, was the sheer number of settlers moving West, especially after the Civil War.
A number of Comanche chiefs were killed at the council house fight in March of 1840, in San Antonio. To retaliate, they made a big raid later in the year that took them to Linnville on the Texas coast. The Rangers and other volunteers were waiting for them on their return and inflicted heavy casualties upon them when they ambushed them at Big Prairie near Plum Creek.
That video is good as you can see the horse is very well trained.I did my mounted archery on pure bred Arabians.I was riding twice as fast and shot longer distances too.I got reasonably proficient at slower speeds and shorter ranges.As you can see your anchor point is where you can find it.Once I forgot about my bow and worked out the timing my bow was just an instrument for launching arrows.Being able to anticipate your release working with your horse it all comes together.Very frustrating until you reach that stage.I still shoot moving targets that way at times.All that correct grip ,stance and anchor ect ain.t going to help you .I found it to be a whole new ball game.Huge learning curve for me and the horse.It is an organised sport now but cost lots of money when horses are involved.It you can afford it its well worth doing, you won't regret it one bit.I learnt from old books and manuscripts .There are people and places to learn this today. OSR (hey just do it)
By the mid-19th century the Comanche faced annihilation because of a wave of epidemics due to Eurasian diseases to which they had no immunity, such as smallpox and measles. Outbreaks of smallpox (1817, 1848) and cholera (1849) took a major toll on the Comanche, whose population dropped from an estimated 20,000 in mid-century to just a few thousand by the 1870s.
Add to this buffalo hunters, who were decimating the great herds on the plains, and the 1890 Census showed 1,598 Comanche at the Fort Sill reservation, which they shared with 1,140 Kiowa and 326 Kiowa Apache.
Even back as far as the early 1700's, a well trained soldier could load and fire his muzzle loader up to 4 times per minute. This is according to written history from the Spanish in St. Augustine, Florida.
An Indian on a horse maybe can shoot a lot of arrows, but what he hits will be more a question of who happens to be in the way; rather than what he is trying to hit, if he is indeed shooting that many arrows. Most Native American "legend" is just that, handed down through stories. I can believe a lot of it, but that one may be stretched a tad.
I've watched Lukas Novotny many times at Denton Hill. He is likely one of the best and can't shoot that many arrows before a rifleman could load his weapon. Now if I was loading it, he probably could...but not a trained rifleman.
This is so true. "I wouldn't begin to compare a modern scripted horse archer who learned later in life to an old time warrior who grew up doing it"
If your interested a good read "Mustangs" by J. Frank Dobie goes into the history of Mustangs mostly in Texas. It also goes over some amazing acts of horsemanship by some of the Indians and also Cowboys who made a living on Mustangs at the time.
Modern day cowboys or horse people can only get a glimpse of the athleticism and incredible bravery that it took to ride and do battle at the same time. And in my opinion a true War horse was an incredible animal. Nothing like todays standards.
If your interested a good read "Mustangs" by J. Frank Dobie goes into the history of Mustangs mostly in Texas. It also goes over some amazing acts of horsemanship by some of the Indians and also Cowboys who made a living on Mustangs at the time.
Modern day cowboys or horse people can only get a glimpse of the athleticism and incredible bravery that it took to ride and do battle at the same time. And in my opinion a true War horse was an incredible animal. Nothing like todays standards.
Well now,
Im kinda curious how you came to speak for us? Have you ever gathered wild cows in brushy country? Ever gathered,started and worked with any mustangs? How bout saved your buddies life and had him save yours? How bout the times you couldnt,and spend the rest of your days thinkin about how you coulda done things different?
Spend any time,pickin up at rodeos,where they buck big stout mares and studs that will kick strike and bite your head off,if you dont know what your doin?
How bout ridin the kind of horses it takes,to get that kinda job done?
Trust me,they aint some back yard raised townie dinks.They are the type that modern mamby pamby cowboys ride and get a job done on,but most dudes wouldnt get in a pen with.
But i regress, what do i or any of the good hands i spent time around know?
we never read the book or watched the video,so i guess we should just shut up and listen to those that did.
"Lowcountry, Do you see the difference between that and your original guessed quote?"
Yes, the rate of fire I stated is actually less than the actual figure printed in the book.
Look - My whole point was that the Comanche were excellent horsemen and archers. As I think you said, I don't think they were carrying 40 arrow quivers. Again, I wasn't there to see their feats first hand, but far fetched or not, that WAS what was reported.
This is also written history - often written by the Spanish who the Comanche prevented from expanding from present day Mexico into Present day Texas.
Maybe I should of written that a little different. I don't know if it will untie your shorts or not. But what I meant to say is that those that have riding experience and been around horses can appreciate and respect the amazing athleticism and bravery that some native American's and early settlers had to have to exist.
There's a big difference between earning a paycheck on back of a horse and those who's total existence depended on their horsemanship.
Stewart Edward White wrote of a buffalo 'surround', as done by the Blackfeet, in his book 'The Long Rifle'. "Disregarding legend, the Indian pony that could, in one 'run', kill four buffalo was considered very good. A 'six-buffalo horse' was remarkable".
Every aspect of the big fall hunt, where the various bands gathered together, was strictly controlled by the fraternity of Dog soldiers. They designated the camping place, far from any chance of disturbing the herd, pitching a lodge in the center which became their barracks and which they inhabited as a body, apart from their own families. Their wood, water, and food were here brought them by the people. They imposed and preserved the most rigid and arbitrary discipline. Without their express permission no one was allowed to leave the confines of the camp. If anyone so much as stepped out foot out of lines, his dogs and ponies would be shot and his lodge cut to pieces. It was true martial law.
A head hunter was appointed and under his direction a segment of the herd was manipulated into a favorable position so as not to disturb the main herd. Keeping out of sight, the hunters surrounded the segment on three sides, leaving the windward side open. When all was in readiness, the head hunter and his group closed the gap; and, almost as the startled buffalo raised their heads to the tainted breeze, lifted his voice for a concerted charge.
The buffalo, turning to flee downwind, away from their first alarm, brought up short before the fluttering yelling mob at their faces. They were surrounded. In confusion they made short individual dashes, ended by huddling, crowding toward the center. The herd was 'milled.' Around and around the horsemen rode, discharging arrows at a few yards' range, dashing in to thrust deep the long lances. The individual hunter preferred arrows because by them he could prove ownership of dead buffalo. Those armed with lances were mostly the Dog soldiers to whom a certain percent of the kill came as a right.
It was all over in about ten minutes. Over a hundred dead buffalo lay crowded in an area not a hundred yards across. The hunters dismounted, their work was done. Then the women took over the identifying and processing the dead buffalo. Only the head hunter stayed mounted, settling disputed claims of those that had more than one hunter's arrow in them.
There's a big difference between earning a paycheck on back of a horse and those who's total existence depended on their horsemanship.
Really?
You think that any good buckaroo on any big outfit doesnt rely on their horsmanship skills for their very existence?
Tell that,to the guy who has to saddle and ride all day,the horse that would just assume stomp a hole in you as look at you.Tell that to the guy who has to stop any way they can the runnaway bronk,who is draggin your buddy to death.You think,that in those scenarios,at any time,the meager paychecks that a Buckaroo makes,even crosses their mind.If anybody is buckarooin for the paycheck,then they are a moron.Its the life and the lifestyle that draws em into the life and horsemanship skills,are the main aspect of it,or you aint gonna last long to collect that check.
Like i said,try pickin up sometime,its as close to horse combat as your gonna get without purposefully killin someone,but man do i love doin it.If i didnt get paid for it,id a done it for free,because its a challenge and a rush.
Wanna untie my shorts,then think about what you post and dont try and pass it off as the gospel,when you may not know of what you speak.Speak for yourself and not for others.
Traxx, ... AMEN Been on the opposite side of that saddle and without a doubt had more then one good pick-up man save my hide. My brother now trains, breaks, pick-up, and busts brush for an outfit. If that boy (26 yrs old) thought he was ridin for a check he would not have made it this far. I quit chasing horses a few years back, though it still is in me to want to, I just am not that good. And that is the truth about horsemanship. From one puncher to another, no one, unless they have been there, can understand that today's REAL cowboy, not some punk, is just as good as any John Wayne. As for the Native Americans, well I have nothing but respect as long as there are not to many dragon tails, and yes the Comanche were some of the well known better end. Yes, they are an elite band, and YES, it is way cool.
"Lowcountry, does it say how many shots a soldier could fire in a minute or are you cross referencing what George said?"
Both. The book had a number, but I don't remember if it was 3 or 4, and I'm not pulling the book out again. Regardless, I've heard and read what George stated countless times. Look it up for yourself, it's well documented.
As I originally posted, if interested, read up on the Comanche. The book I referenced was not the best book ever written (IMO) about Native Americans, but I did find it super interesting when detailing the Comanches way of life.
Buster - Your description of the Buffalo hunt reminded me of a sign my father told me about that he saw in a bar somewhere long ago. The sign said something like-
When the White man got here, they found that the native women did ALL of the work. All the men did was hunt, fish, eat, and sleep. The White man thought he could improve that system! LOL
How many of you people actually ride horses.Better still who has tried mounted archery?Its nice to make assumptions about it and also what Indian could or could not do.The best we can do is to trace history or even try to do some of the things Indians did.We can never really know.Its just lots of fun to taste what it may have been like.Who really knows for sure. As I said befor just do it.I wish I still had my horses.Its an adventure you would love. OSR
"So you really think a man is going to be loosing 60-80 arrows a minute?"
I don't know, But I never said that. What do you want me to say? Are you hung up on my "something like 40 arrows a minute" statement? I prefaced that by saying "I don't remember exactly, but...". I later posted the author's exact quote, which when used to describe the speed and ability at which the Comanche were able to shoot arrows, is directly comparable to my quantified remembrance.
Again - my whole point was that the Comanche were extraordinary horsemen and horse soldiers, and worth reading about.
"I'm just wondering if you think it seems realistic for a guy to shoot 20 arrows for every musket shot when the musketeer can shoot 3-4 a minute. I'm also wondering who these guys were who watched the clock during a battle and tallied up the rate of fire for all parties involved. That must have required nerves of steel and possibly some sort of agreement beforehand."
LOL - I hear you. A lot of the people who documented this were the survivors, and I agree with you, they probably didn't have their stop watches out, as they had their hands full. But there are also written accounts from white men/women who lived with them. Was that 20 arrows per musket shot quote in the book an exaggeration? I don't know. I guess I choose to believe it. That's not based on the one quote, but on many witnessed accounts of their bow abilities that have been documented.
