Funny how you can have a problem situation that just goes on and on and ON and ON and ON, and then one day somebody smarter than you walks up and says “Well, heck.. THERE’s your problem!”

So I would like to publicly salute Dave, aka CamoDave aka Damascus Dave for his thoughtful contribution to the toxophilitic lexicon: Intuitive Archery/aiming technique.

I’ve always maintained that Intuition is simply lightning-fast logic – it goes by so fast that you never knew it even happened, and the result is that something just FEELS right. Gut-level Knowing that simply does not exist apart from one’s experience with a subject or problem; newbies don’t have it, but they can develop it over time and once it’s really there it can become just about spooky…

JMO, that is a VASTLY superior description of what occurs when a shooter draws and looses without a conscious thought for anything apart from the target – it’s a skill set which wasn’t there before it was consciously developed and refined, but it has progressed beyond a mechanical process to become as fluid as thought.

So… A Modest Proposal… How’s about we BURY the word “instinctive” out in the manure pile where it belongs so that we can move this conversation away from the smug, “you’ve either got it or you don’t” BS and bring our collective intelligence to bear on discussions of how EVERY ARCHER has the wherewithal to develop an intuitive skill with his/her equipment which will leave the pin-shooters aghast and agape… or at favorably impressed at the very least…

I’m not suggesting that every last one of us has an inner Robin Hood/Howard Hill/Byron Ferguson/Frank Addington/Jeffer which is just waiting to be unleashed upon the world of archery, but Real Science makes it clear that we are ALL entirely capable of growing out a neuro-motor pathway that will allow us to hit what we’re looking at with far greater precision and consistency than many appear willing to accept in their own shooting…

Disagree with me if you wish and don’t drag Dave into it against his will, but the man has put his finger on a word which I think could set a lot of people free from their unhelpful “you’ve got it or you don’t and I don’t, so I guess I can allow myself to be satisfied with my shooting as it is” kind of thinking….

Agree!!! Bury it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As much as I would love to take credit for an original idea I have the feeling that we have been here before...somehow Dr. Jay Kidwell's thinking comes to mind...he used to post on here quite a bit and I corresponded with him at that time...not everyone is going to buy into this idea, and I would not expect that...if you find it helpful please use it...I like terms that are liberating rather than restrictive...in light of GF's suggestion that we all ought to contribute something to the discussion let me start by suggesting you devote at least a little time and effort to shooting with "opposite handedness"...I find that some days my intuition about where the arrow is going to strike the target is better one way or the other...I have been know to decide whether to hunt right handed or left handed by shooting a few arrows each way

DDave

Uh-oh............

I can't help but notice that you didn't select "Debate-Free" for this thread.

But yes, I agree. Intuitive is the more accurate word to use for this approach to shooting a bow, rather than insinctive.

No one is born with the "instinct" to shoot a bow - we learn it. And with enough repetition, the series of motions and aiming involved can become "inuitive," just as we once had to put effort into learning how to ride a bike, but no longer have to consciously think about it after years of doing it. "Instinctive" would be if I simply picked up a bike having never touched one before and immediately knew what to do with it and took off down the street on it.

Unfortunately, I think this is going to be the beginning of another longer and redundant thread on the topic...

Sounds good to me..Well defined .. Intuitive Archery suits me better than the term instictive.. It connotes learned skillsets, proper equipment, proper form..and THEN the archer need not think about much 'consciously'..Jim

Well, if you understand how long the term "instinctive" has been used, what is the point. I'm comfortable with it as it is and smart enough to know it may not be fully accurate. There are more important things to weigh on a man's mind than that.

What would you like to drink with your popcorn?

I would like it called, Stan's method.. Not to be confused with the Star method.. In other words this will never end.. But I am serious about the Stan's method..

I thought this was going to be another thread about Lars WhatsHisFace.

i don't think eplacing one abstract adjective (instinct) with another (intuitive)is going to clear the waters.

" Real Science makes it clear that we are ALL entirely capable of growing out a neuro-motor pathway"… ... no we're not I'm afraid.

No one is born with the "instinct" to shoot a bow - we learn it. And with enough repetition, the series of motions and aiming involved can become "inuitive," just as we once had to put effort into learning how to ride a bike, but no longer have to consciously think about it after years of doing it. "Instinctive" would be if I simply picked up a bike having never touched one before and immediately knew what to do with it and took off down the street on it.

That is the best description I've heard yet about what instinctive actually is - or is not. The baseball comparison never really did much for me. "Intuitive" - "instinctive" either one works for me. We all know what is being talked about when we hear it, some just insist on relentlessly keeping the argument going.

Oh shut up and shoot, oh ,uh uh, excuse me I drifted off and thought I was out at the range listening to the guys I shoot with talking about gap shooting or something, I don't remember now.

I may choose to be offended. I suggested the term "intuitive" several years ago on the wall. :) Bet it will catch on now just like it did when I offered it.

Burnsie, have you really missed ALL the hundreds of other threads on this subject. You have added another disproof of the concept that no one has ever claimed.

It is amazing to me that there are always people proving that others are wrong about something not one sane person has ever said. NOBODY HAS EVER SAID ANYONE COULD BE BORN KNOWING HOW TO SHOOT A BOW.

Supreme archery guesstimators woukd be cool.

I personally find it to be a good describer. Not sure how one can make a case against it. Intuitive is exactly how I would describe it.

Doesn't matter what you label it; there will always be people that say it can't be done...or that it isn't done the way the people that do it say they do it. I take a different approach...you shoot the way you like, I'll shoot the way I like, and hopefully we'll both hit the mark. Hitting the mark, after all, is what really matters.

NOMO, May please have super-sized Coca-Cola with just a little ice? By the way will we be watching the CLASSIC "ROBIN HOOD" ? BE WELL! batman PS? Failing the pop-corn? How about real big pizza? CANADIAN BACON & CHEESE...Extra Bacon and Extra cheese?

The mods here should just banned the word show it shows up like this when someone types it.

I*********e

:)

Intuitive works for me, have been shooting that way for 45 years. And no, I do not reference my arrow, even in my peripheral vision.

I have said it before, and i'll say it again, we are gap shooters ! you may not consciously seed the arrow, but unless you're eyes are closed, you see it, and subconsciously gap.

We should probably be careful how many of these long-standing debates we put to rest, and keep in mind that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction in order to balance the cosmic scales.

If we all agree on 'inuitive,' I predict that FOC debates are only going to get uglier...

I'll say it again. I SAID IT FIRST. Read the whole thread and check the archives.

AND, it still won't catch on.

Call it what you want. I'm ok with Instinctive. Its Merriam Webster definition perfectly suits the aiming method.

... behavior mediated by reactions below the conscious level.

First world problems...

Next thing you know we'll all be worried about the inflation PSI of a few footballs.

I would be glad to get you a super-sized cola, but they are against the law. ;~)

Sorry Jim D. Still goin with Stan's method..

I like the term instinctive and most people I know, know what it means, even if we are really shooting Intuitively.

...and if I choose to pause 2/10'ths of a second while I'm at anchor I see the out of focus arrow tip in my secondary vision as I instinctively shoot.

:) :) :)

This topic is kinda like trying to answer your wife when she asks you:

" Do I look fat in this dress'?

So long as you shoot well, hit the mark and are enjoying your archery?..you may call your style whatever you wish..:) Jim

Does the word instinctive make people feel inferior somehow or is it just that some people have to argue till everyone agrees with them, or at least pretends to agree. I have the best idea yet. Why not let everyone call it what they want and stop trying to bully people into seeing it "your" way. As George said we all know its not a pure instinct but that's the term we all learned years ago and that has been used for ages. Let it rest instead of telling people, how about you see it my way, n then we'll let it rest.

Congrats Matt for putting an end to this long time instinctive debate. This argument has been going on since they started stickbow. Glad this is finally the last thread on this subject. ;-) Pass the popcorn please!

So we shouldn't use "Instinctive"? Lots of people on here seem to want "Traditional" to go away as well. What other Archery words should I not use on here?

Personally, I don't shoot using the "Instinctive/Intuitive" method, but I don't have a problem with either word being used.

And this is the rig I would like..tho I did have a 56 and 57 checy they were not that shiny..:)

INSTINCTIVELY..:)????? it just calls to me..:) Top speed? 45 mph...:)Jim

Yeah, I'm getting emails from people I don't even know about Lars What'sHisFace.

Lars is a gap shooter, you can tell because he does what he does with a bow and arrows.

Yup Lars is one heck of a Gap shooter! lol

"So we shouldn't use "Instinctive"? Lots of people on here seem to want "Traditional" to go away as well. What other Archery words should I not use on here?

Personally, I don't shoot using the "Instinctive/Intuitive" method, but I don't have a problem with either word being used"

It was a Joke...note the smiley face.

:)

I say just shut up and shoot.??. It's a lot more fun than debating for me.

When my wife asks:

"Does this dress make me look fat?" I say, "No, the daily intake of Pecan Pie and Vanilla Ice Cream makes you look fat!"

It just came to me intuitively. Didn't even have to think about the answer...

Nice rides Jim

Can we quit splitting hairs and just call it "shooting" and be done with it?

How about an end to "it's your bow. shoot it how you like!" as if the poster was somehow confused about the ownership of his own bow and needed 100 people he didn't and never will know to give him permission to do as he pleases in the freest country on the face of the earth. RIP!

The Webster Dictionary(in addition to other references) lists "instinct" as a synonym for "intuition". Take your pick.

Good one Squarehead. Right after you said it intuitively did you have to duck instinctively? :)

Intuitive, now there's a hope and change I can agree with.

Way to go Matt, yeah!

Looks like a awfully long ending to me!

Awe come on. I just learn how to spell instinktive. Now you got another geez

K so it's a no go for the route 44 vanilla coke, how about a liter bottle and some more popcorn?

And if Squarehead did not duck instinctively, he has a swollen and blurry sight plane now.

OK! OK! OK! I GOT IT!!!!!!!!!

How 'bout......."Shooting bow that possesses no wheels, cams, cables, is longer than 24", and has no sights, hole gadgets in the string, is pulled back with yer fingers, whereby ya point it in the general direction of sumpin' yer interested in hitting and using the force or some otherworldly indescribable supernatural zen methodology ya let 'er rip when "it just feels right" and dammed if ya don't skewer that sucker right where ya meant to.

What could be clearer than that? End of discussion I'd have to say! :^)

"make me look fat?". The answer is always "NO".. she is not fat or she is fat, and the dress does not matter. Do not tell my wife I wrote that.

Just tell folks I shoot a sting with a string on it, you do not have to go beyond that, as the disgust on their faces says it all. Let them try to defined the magic of an arrow's arc'd flight

Had a 55 Chevy once. No where close to the red beauty, Wow,

Dad-gum!

What do I do with my Instinctor NFAA 1962 badge? It was the division we shot. I shoot purely instinctive with a gap.

I instinctively knew this thread would be a hoot.

Then someone mentioned the STAR method and I spit me coke!

Now, about that cow...

A women's intuition is something that they posses intuitively so how does that work if intuitive is something one must learn ?

You may have to run this by your wife ,sister , daughter or mom.

Bill Nye will need to weigh in on this.

i think i like leatherwall most for the entertainment.

My problem is resisting the temptation to stir the pot a little.

I once sat silently in on a conversation with a bunch of amish men, who were debating whether or not the would allow belts in there church. (they wore suspenders)....after about an hr of lengthy debate. One of them turned to me and said...."steve your not Amish we would be interested in your thoughts".

I chuckled a bit and said, "well i think its pretty silly for grown men to sit around for over an hr and debate how they are going to hold there pants up."

I'd rate this debate right on par with that.

We should be thankful we live in the free world where we can debate topics such as this...seems to me there was a gentleman somewhere in the no-so-free world who got flogged a while ago for simply posting his views on the internet

DDave

Much ado about nothing. Frank

In my opinion, you are just stirring up trouble. We have had this debate before and its silly. Shoot the way you want and do it well or dont do it at all. Who the hell cares what you call it.

Something must be wrong with me. Ijust read this whole thread.

We need to stop calling it a BOW. A bow is the thing we put on a Christmas gift.

The old archers had the same debate. It pretty much ended when they decided to use the terms "direct" and "indirect aiming." That's a pretty fair description of what happens.

"... behavior mediated by reactions below the conscious level."

Is that what's really behind the never-ending need to beat a nonexistent dead horse?

If we switch to the word intuitive, can we still call those who do it 'instinctors'?

Gotta tell ya.....some of these threads are about as much fun as a fella can have with his clothes on.

Only been here for a couple months and this is what...3 times times this has risen up?

IMO...only efoc thread of last month beats this one for the gold medal. But hey....no cover charge for this much entertainment's the best deal in town!!!

Bad news, it seems Mr. Nye is tied up examining Lars Andersen videos.

I have to violently disagree with Tom McCool!!! We have to abrogate the use of the word Bow henceforth. Bow is the front part of a ship. I don't get christmas presents (for some reason nobody likes me) so I have no idea what this present wrapping with "bows" is all about.

Grumpy Braco Out

Lars Anderson is cosmic. Next week he will be demonstrating the conversion of base metals to gold.

He discovered the ancient secrets in an old Alchemy script his Granny gave him for Christmas. It was gift wrapped in a "Bow" what ever that is???

Happy Braco Out

I tried getting around all this guff by calling my style of shooting dimmeldorf. but then I went to an OSTA shoot and had a guy watching me shoot the 50 yard target. As I finished shooting he came over n ask what method I used to aim. Not wanting to argue I told him dimmeldorf. He got this confused look on his face and just said, Huh? So I told him intuitive and watched the look oh his face stay at confusion. So finally I just said instinctive, thinkin here it comes. He just smiled n said oh , ok. So see instinctive is easier,lol.

Alright Braco!!!! At least some people around here have a sense of humor.

It's like groundhog day with these threads.

Ned... Ryerson. "Needlenose Ned"? "Ned the Head"? C'mon, buddy. Case Western High. Ned Ryerson: I did the whistling belly-button trick at the high school talent show? Bing! Ned Ryerson: got the shingles real bad senior year, almost didn't graduate? Bing, again. Ned Ryerson: I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple times until you told me not to anymore? Well? Bing!

:o) Regards

Another longish post, so if you don't care about the topic, feel free to sroll on down to the next cartoon...

My apologies to Jim Davis (and anyone else I may have slighted). My #1 concern when I made the first post here was to avoid taking credit for myself for a notion Dave had put into my head, but a quick search of the archives does indeed turn up Jim Davis/Asharrow as one of the earliest to use it here…. And some other guy named “Jim in Oregon” put the same two words together a few years before that…. Hmmmm... wonder who THAT could be???

But just for grins….

Instinctive implies that it simply appears, fully formed. A starting point. You’ve “Got It” or you don’t.

Inutitive – if used accurately – (pun intended!) – is an Outcome. If you aren’t There yet, you can Get There. It takes a fair amount of consistent practice… using proper form… which can be learned, of course… Though perhaps there are those who remain unconvinced…

Phil (Rees) responded to my OP here this way:

“i don't think eplacing one abstract adjective (instinct) with another (intuitive)is going to clear the waters. ‘Real Science makes it clear that we are ALL entirely capable of growing out a neuro-motor pathway’… ... no we're not I'm afraid.”

I guess I’d better ask you to explain that in greater detail, because off hand I’d say that you have either :1) No Idea what you’re talking about or 2) No Idea what **I** am talking about.

I’m not suggesting that every last one of us can become just as good as ANY of us – not REMOTELY, because THAT would be sheer fantasy. Pretty sure I made that clear the first time through… But ANY voluntary motor activity can/must be learned and refined; if you can learn to do it poorly, you can learn to do it better, and if you can do it better then you can learn to do it reasonably well. Barring a catastrophic medical/neurological condition, I suppose… Though it’d be interesting to get some feedback on that from Viper and the other coaches here… Maybe they’ve seen some would-be archers who are really, most sincerely hopeless, but I have a hunch that for those folks, there is perhaps more UN-learning of bad habits to be done than NEW learning of good ones… That actually requires some rewiring of the brain, which isn’t always easy… even though it happens every day… Unless you’re Dead.

As for “clearing the waters” by simply swapping out one word for another… Nope. Never happen. We really need to change the thinking behind the words so that we get back to some reasonable understandings and expectations regarding what can be achieved and how to get there, STEPWISE…

And again, I wouldn’t really care, except that the whole Instinctive Mystique seems to be sp pervasive that I sincerely believe that it prevents a lot of potentially very good archers from: 1) expecting any more from themselves than they have already achieved and 2) Utilizing proven methods for becoming very good indeed.

For example, why are Gappers held in low regard simply because (oh, yeah!) they can generally HIT what they’re AIMING at? How many aspiring recurve/LB shooters have quit (or resigned themselves to a 10-yard effective hunting range) simply because they’re afraid to use gapping as a learning aid while they cement the skills involved in a consistent anchor point and sight picture?

If that makes them happy, then so be it, but when they start wounding animals because their egos prevent them from using perfectly legitimate means of improving their shooting… I’m calling B___Sch__t!

How about suspenders AND belts with black and brown plaid shirts, camo pants and hat, standing in a blaze orange ground blind with an American flag flying on the tree above, shooting intuitively with a release at turkeys with a selfbow with 10/20/30 yd pins. Isn't there something at least SOMEONE could instinctively agree to???

A gentleman’s suspenders should ONLY ever appear on ones socks. Suspenders on trousers (pants) are an abomination. The sight is nauseating and is an assault on one’s delicate eyes.

I believe the city of Ulan Bator in Mongolia has outlawed the wearing of trouser suspenders under pain of loss of Yak milk privileges.

I further understand that Mongolia’s United Nations representative has been lobbying for the implementation of a ban of their wearing under the United Nations Charter for Human rights.

Scheesch! Best of luck there Mongolia.

Braco out

Does instinctive mean I can't use a sight? Because intuitively, I'm always looking for one. ;-)

Reminds me of the shirt one of the Wenzel Bros was wearing:

"I Beat Anorexia"..:)Jim

I recall a patch that some of the NFAA archers wore years ago..

It was a caricature of a skunk with a bow and underneath embroidered was "INSTINCTORS"..

Can't find a pic of it to post right now but the term has been used for many years..

I just think the term is a bit misleading to the neophytes in archery.. Better that they learn to shoot with proper form and good equipment and then shoot well without much conscious effort..:) Jim

" I believe the city of Ulan Bator in Mongolia has outlawed the wearing of trouser suspenders under pain of loss of Yak milk privileges.

I further understand that Mongolia’s United Nations representative has been lobbying for the implementation of a ban of their wearing under the United Nations Charter for Human rights.

Yet further proof of how ahead of its time Mongolian culture really is, and has been, for millenia.

I just think the term is a bit misleading to the neophytes in archery.. Better that they learn to shoot with proper form and good equipment and then shoot well without much conscious effort..:) Jim

I just think the term is a bit misleading to the neophytes in archery.. Better that they learn to shoot with proper form and good equipment and then shoot well without much conscious effort..:) Jim

I just think the term is a bit misleading to the neophytes in archery.. Better that they learn to shoot with proper form and good equipment and then shoot well without much conscious effort..:) Jim

I just think the term is a bit misleading to the neophytes in archery.. Better that they learn to shoot with proper form and good equipment and then shoot well without much conscious effort..:) Jim

I just think the term is a bit misleading to the neophytes in archery.. Better that they learn to shoot with proper form and good equipment and then shoot well without much conscious effort..:) Jim

Thank you, kind sir....

Thanks for your enlightened concurrence Smithhammer

Braco

Out

What a waste of time! Glad you settled that issue for all time!

If my wife asks if she looks fat, I ask her if I look stupid!

No, don't agree

Instinctive is a term that's been used before most of you ever shot a traditional bow and it will be used long after we're all gone.

I really think if you think about it, I mean really think about it, not just say your thinking about it, but really, really think about it, you would have to agree that it is all a lot of gap.

"Only been here for a couple months and this is what...3 times times this has risen up? "

Only 3 times? I'm shocked. It is usually a weekly occurance.

Hey, Lars Anderson was a 3 times/day occurance all over the internet.

I think you have more chance of hell freezing over first. ;-)

There needs to be a "like" button so I know which posts in these threads to read and which to skip.

I'll miss these entertaining trolling topics... once the snow melts and everyone starts shooting more! :)

I was hoping shade mt. had posted what the Amish finally decided on: belts or suspenders.

Me too Ken.

However, we may draw a tentative conclusion by making the observation that the Amish population of Ulan Bator is currently zero.

There may, or may not, be some sort of corellation there but as I say at the moment it is purley tentative speculation.

Shade Mt. over?

Apologies, but my instinctive and intuitive spidey senses are drawing a blank on this question at the moment. (need more research)

Braco Out

Just noticed this debate-ending thread just hit the 100 post mark...apparently it was my idea that started it so it is only fitting I launch the next 100 posts...life would be pretty uninteresting if we all thought the same way...none of us would do well living in North Korea

DDave

oops folks forgot this beautiful presentation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqf3QxPd1NA

Here's the like button ...

Fred Asbell is going to be at Kalamazoo Expo this weekend and giving a talk Saturday and Sunday.

This would probably be an excellent topic to bring up for him to talk about!

I doubt if he as ever been asked about this topic.

Sorry, I won't be the one asking. I, uh, um, am afraid of public speaking... :)

LOL, that out an end to it alright. :) Jawge

Putting an end to the instinctive debate - are you kidding? STUPIDITY NEVER ENDS!

Aim high and let fly....

Man I don't care.

The style exsists, we know it comes naturally to some and others have to work at it. We also know that people like Stacy Groscup mastered it and taught it.

I agree that we shouldn't argue among ourselves. It's not inferior or superior to other styles. It does have it's advantages and disadvantages. But all in all it's a great style. I have enjoyed instinctive shooting 43 years.

Bottom line I don't care what they call it as long as they get my name spelled right on the check. :)

You guys are great, honored to be among you.

Frank

Just wondering what "ttt" means. Seemed like a good thread to ask such a question.

"ttt" = "to the top"

And my this be the last thread debating the term "instinctive," ever.

It's good to see a bunch of mature archers and friends come together in agreement on such a heated subject as instinctive archery, it's a wonderful thing to see when all interested parties are totally satisfied with the outcome of such a controversial subject, as this tends to be, frankly I didn't think it could be done, I stand corrected, awesome absolutely awesome.

Watching rednecks argue over words is like watching donkey's play chess. There are tons of words in the English language that do not literally compare to other uses of the same word. Increasingly literally is used to mean figuratively, for that mater. Nobody seems to care that each generation mangles the the refined usage they inherited. In fact the people who's degrees suggest they ought to know better regularly do the same thing, consider the damage currently being inflicted on the word "concerning", which means "as regards", not "a cause for concern".

Intuition is as stupid as can be. Consider "female intuition". This is a variant where no male has any idea how they do it. Is that really the association we want to make while replacing Instinctive.

Instinctive may not be perfect, but it has the only pedigree that is required, it is in use. That is all it takes. If the word is in widespread use, it is correct usage. What is more, the usage is not even odd. It is a perfectly reasonable use of the word in a context where one is not specifically discussing biology. And in fact it is partially accurate. There are things we do while shooting instinctively that are matters of instinct, though that would apply to all shooting.

Even in science there are many definitions of instinct, as it is redefined and argued over in various schools of thought. There isn't any reason to be literal. Are the United states really united? Are they all in one place for instance. Were there brought together at one time, maybe we should call them the Accumulated States of America.

The arguments will never go away, because everyone has access to a dictionary, but most do not know what it is for.

OK. I have been thoroughly enjoying this thread.

But all joking apart; what a refreshing post by Bowlim? He has presented us with a cogent and coherent argument, the inescapable conclusion of which is that the correct word is Instinct.

“Intuition is as stupid as can be”, this corresponds well with the usual, “I cannot explain some novel phenomenon, so my visceral conclusion is….. Aliens!”.

KISS! but for goodness sake, we left the caves 50 millennia ago. We have put men on the moon, eradicated a raft of killer diseases form the planet and extended our life spans, all the use of logical thinking.

For me, Bowlim’s thoughts also throw into relief my despair at the way the English language is being mangled and macerated.

The damage is not just being perpetrated by the young but also by those who should know better.

The young punctuate their speech by using ‘Like’ every second word and when speaking there is no grammar or syntax. I call it Text Speak.

When one of my students asks me a question, it can sometimes be a torturous experience for me. I have to try very hard to filter out what is being asked. I regularly conclude that in fact there is indeed a question in the mind of the person but he is unable to articulate it; it’s just not embedded in the Text Speak!

At the other end of the spectrum I am anguished by those who should know better. What gets my knickers in a twist is the use of what I call Management Speak.

Some example expressions…..

“Going forward”, “In the round”, “lets speak about this offline” .

For Pete’s sake, think of the children! I am a biological entity and as such I am never electrically connected to any digital device. Consequently I am never online. I am perpetually offline!

Getting back to arras. I employ the three p’s technique. Point, Pull Pray!

Braco Out

Ahhh, it's been a while since the real flavor of the Leatherwall in Winter has wafted its scent around! Smells like home!

Ok. Instinctive it is.

I knew it the whole time.

"This mornin', I shot six holes in my freezerI think I got cabin fever Somebody sound the alarm"

I think the lyrics from an old Jimmy Buffet song explain whats going on here.

:-D

Yup Ken.

But then again you can't apreciate the warm without experiencing the snow. :)

Braco Out

I don't do a lot of bowfishing but I am better at it than target shooting or hunting. Because it is purely instinctive. No thought process about losing an arrow, hitting a limb, making a gutshot or hitting someone in the distance. Just pull back and let it fly. Yes that is instinctive. It has always been called that in my lifetime, good enough for me.

Best just to say "I shoot bare bow" and let everyone else wonder what aiming method you use. I took Rod Jenkins shooting class with some trepidation that he would try and teach me some fancy calculated aiming system. He never spoke of aiming techniques, and strictly taught form, particularly back tension. It was a good class, and I highly recommend it.

122 posts!

It must be the beginning of the "off season".

Bowlin is right. Instinctive is right. Any calcualtions we do are calculations we instinctively do. Intuitive does not cut it for me. A perfectly accurate word may not exist but so what, we all know whar we are talking about.

Stikbow,

"make me look fat?". The answer is always "NO".. she is not fat or she is fat, and the dress does not matter. Do not tell my wife I wrote that.

Atta boy,

Just keep on givin me that blackmailin ammo pard.Ill own that liberty bow yet.LOL

Bare bow works for me.."true" traditional bow hunters roaming the woods starkers in their quest for prey.

I gotta ask: while nobody has made such an assertion outright, it could be inferred from some of the posts on this thread that sometimes some guys hit things with an arrow, on purpose, the same thing they meant to hit. Does this really ever happen for you guys?????

Bowlim .. you said " There are things we do while shooting instinctively that are matters of instinct" .... I'd be interested to know what they are exactly?

I doubt that there will ever truly be an end to instagap or gapstinctive aiming techniques, it's been around for a long time.

Instinctive was barebow - until "trad" was invented a few years ago.

Wawa, weeo whys everyones always picking on me.

HERES THE WAY OR TAKE TO THE HIGHWAY ON THIS.LOL

STOP TAKING ABOUT IT AND BRINGING UP THREADS SO SOME ONE CAN BANG A WOLF.LOL

Dire has sound logic.LOL

Is this shootingate?LOL

Unified Theories in science are very popular at the moment ..... maybe someone should write "The Unified theory of instinctive archery" .. then everyone would be happy ... any volunteers?

Phil, if we understant 'instinct' in this context to mean, "Instinct; behavior mediated by reactions below the conscious level", then I agree with him.

For instance, subconsciously adjusting for windage and/or elevation.

This behavior (adjusting aim) can be mediated by a reaction to the point of impact of a previous shot, and done subconsciously.

It can also be mediated by a subconscious reaction to a target's(or archer's) change of direction, speed, elevation, etc.

Jeff, parts of the shot are mediated at a subconscious level and other parts aren't, once you understand the process it's quite simple.

I agree.

I just do not understand why there are so many posts on the topic. What difference does it make how someone shoots, no sights, point of aim, or upside down, who cares? I say just shoot the way you want, let others shoot they way they want and do not worry about the name. Go shoot and have fun doing it.

I personally am an instinctive shooter, but I'll not change my words to make a guy who can't do it happy. I'm not politically correct around anyone else. So why should I make exceptions for someone who can't do it, so they claim it doesn't exist. If you can't figure it out, acknowledge and move on. But don't tell me I'm wrong, for what I know I can do.

Page 57, The Witchery of Archery..publ 1879, "Instinctively, I let fly at him as he made a half-turn, and poised himself for a vigorous sweep."

If one is satisfied with their accuracy, why do we care so much about how it got there?

Do you think the Native Americans or the Mongols sat around bickering about this stuff? I highly doubt it. If someone could consistently hit the mark, I'm sure that's all they cared about in order to consider that person a "good archer."

Shoot however you want, call it whatever you want. All the matters is if you can put it where you need to, when you need to.

Smithhammer, that's is much too sensible.

Since I see a 140 posts I'm guessing this isn't final end all of the debate. (no, I did not read any of it)

I am so shocked........

Well Dan, you would think it was the Obama administration wanting to change things to be politically correct. Yes...ban the term inistinctive as it applies to archery...it must be wrong and offensive. LMAO.

Ok, let's summarize....

I think I'm going to ditch "instinctive" and "intuitive" completely, and start using "inquisitive" to describe my particular shooting style.

Mine is sometimes defective.

Haha...

You can call it what you will,I came from an old school athletic background where playing shortstop required me to practice various things in route to getting an accurate throw to first,the more I practiced the play the better I got,didn't have time to "visualize" or think about it at all,just required constant work to get to my personal best,others were certainly better but same applied to pitchers,Q-backs throwing a post pattern for a TD. I'm OK w/calling it a "look in shot" or intuitive or instinctive.

Something that people don't understand usually upsets them. Cause they just can't figure out "WHY". Not that we have ever seen fine examples of instinctive shooting on this site before. ;-)

The word "instinctive" has been discussed and used in archery for so long that it has become a "traditional" definition. Don't think we can improve on it.

John-Doc... Well certainly we CAN improve on....or disuse that term..

Why not practice and profess..

ACCURATE archery...IF anyone asks you what sort of archery you use...

Simply say: 'ACCURATE ARCHERY'..

After all..the chief point of archery is to 'hit the mark'..whatever that is for you..:)

I cannot think of very many things folks do well that are instinctive..

Some of them might be considered X rated..

NONE of them have jackshi* to do with GOOD ACCURATE archery..Jim

For those who insist on a new word, replace INSTINCTIVE with KINESTHETIC and we can put it in our pipes and smoke it for a while.

A word can have more than one meaning, right?

When it does, it's vital to communication to use the one most-relevant to the topic being discussed.

Unfortunately, it appears that those who choose to refute the term instinctive aiming, incessantly refer to the LEAST relevant definition of instinct. Their own words in turn then lack substance and relevance.

I was watching Brian Games on TV today and they stated that Intuition is based on experience.

People do not understand what Instinctive means.

It does not Mean Instinct. It does not mean natural

The "IVE" means like

The dictionary use this: (of a person) doing or being a specified thing apparently naturally or automatically. "an instinctive writer" synonyms: intuitive, natural, instinctual, innate, inborn, inherent; More

Writing is not natural or an instinct, it is learned. So how can you be an instinctive writer? The same why you shoot "instinctive" by doing it so often that it becomes second nature.

I'll think about this thread tomorrow and laugh again. Hilarious! Someone mentioned the entertainment value - Amen!

THE END.........

Yeah...right...

gmr,

You're mixing the definition. They are describing the STYLE of writing, not the act of writing. Being able to weave a story without taking the time to think and work it out is the act they are referring to.

Six days and still going strong, it is good to see that all the conclusions are the same, kinda of like peta and the NRA.

Reminds me of the old Eagles song: Hotel California..:)

Last thing I remember, I was Running for the door I had to find the passage back To the place I was before 'relax,' said the night man, We are programmed to receive. You can checkout any time you like, But you can never leave!......:)

Yep I think that does fit very well here. Amazing to me.

Your all crazy as hell

Oh yea. They are archers you know.

I keep trying to avoid these threads, but I instinctively click on them anyway! Cabin fever folks, rarely makes sense, always entertaining!

my god, ithought the debate ended 148 responses ago!

'When I use a word',Humpty Dumpty said'in rather a scornful tone,it means what I choose it to mean-neither more..nor less'. Llewis Carroll.

There will never be an end to the debate, just like the "What is Traditional" threads that pop up with nauseating regularity....

The only thing that bothers me are those who try to dissect the actual definition, to merely make a point or start an argument.

If you have been around traditional archery enough, you know what Instinctive means, and when someone states they shoot Instinctively, we all know what they mean..whether it is the definitive explanation, or exactly what occurs, whatever....

It's the internet gurus, and experts, who love to bicker and pick apart the term.....

If more people decided to practice whatever style they use, there would be a lot better stickbow shooters around....I never had a deer that I shot wonder if I shot it instinctively, gap, or whatever.....only those insecure with their style worry about it.....

If you gotta ask.....

You won't understand

When stickbow first started. Wasn't this the very first thread? And the debate goes On And ON and...............

The "Mobius" Debate

"If you gotta ask.....

You won't understand."

Lot of truth to that. It's a method for those who don't need to analyze.

Oh, and that Mobious strip is clearly inside out.

I'd say it's outside in, it is totally obvious.

Contrariwise, if it were so it might be,and if it were so,it would be, But as it isn't, it ain't..that's logic. Lewis Carroll.

Contrariwise, if it were so it might be,and if it were so,it would be, But as it isn't, it ain't..that's logic. Lewis Carroll.

I have to admit that makes perfect sense to me, glad you cleared that up.

Well , that certainly put an end to the instinctive shooting debate!

Well , that certainly put an end to the instinctive shooting debate!

You are welcome...this debate has convinced me that I need to shoot more with my instincts

DDave

some people gap bob Wesley showed me his method it all is good if it works for you.check out wolfies instinctive on you tube.im rt eye dominate and I shoot lefty so instinctive works for me.mho

Animals especially predators are born with instincts yet they have to hone their instinctive skills thru practice(to get proficient with them). They are instinctive hunters from birth but they do have to learn how to do it thru instruction from their parents. IMO we are no different. We get instructions from a coach or from reading on the subject. We then practice to hone those instincts or skills. Nature can teach us many things about life.

"They are instinctive hunters from birth but they do have to learn how to do it thru instruction from their parents."

This isn't completely true. I had a ranched silver fox pup escape just several weeks old, and he learned to hunt and survive on his own. I actually saw him grown and watched him catch a mouse about a mile from home. He was healthy and beautiful. Not only had HE had no instruction from his parents, but he came from a long line of ranch fox, so who knows how many generations prior it was that his ancestors had to hunt for food.

That said... again.... there's more than one definition for 'instinct' and not all of them require the skill to be 'inborn or unlearned'.

Interesting insight into instincts.

During the cold war an electrified fence existed between the border of West Germany and Czechoslovakia.

This is a remote and thickly wooded region. The fence has been gone these many years.

Herds of red deer roam both sides of the old NATO-Warsaw Pact border in these woods.

But mysteriously the deer turn around when they approach it.

Despite the fact that the deer alive today have no memory of the dangerous electric fence, they instinctively avoid the now non existing fence.

Somehow the "fence" avoidance behaviour has been either genetically encoded to offspring or some other unknown biological agency is at work.

Braco out

Breathing is instinctive.....just about everything else is learned behavior.

If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here