Since returning to Maine from my western bike trip this fall, I've acquired a few more classic recurves... and I've been dying to take them all out to this giant field where my son lives, just to "string 'em and fling 'em" to see how they compare.

The chance finally came, and over the last two days I've staged a flight-shooting smackdown between some of the best bows ever made. The bows sort out into four categories...

My two lightweights are both just pure delight for me to look at. I think this first model-year Hoyt Pro Medalist is quite rare, because it's only 62" long.

The '65 Mustang was supposed to have Freijo wood in the riser, but I'd swear that this one somehow got Brazilian rosewood... anyway I love the way it looks and shoots.

The guys who made these middleweights are no slouches either-- Harry Drake, Damon Howatt, and Fred Anderson. I had to know how they compared for distance shooting!

These four bows all scaled at 50# (although wily old Mr. Groves marked his at 47#!!), so again it seemed worth finding out how they would cast an arrow.

Finally, here are my two heavyweights. Once again the Groves bow is marked at 61# but scaled at 64... and at my draw, it just ticked 70# on the scale. All I could do to come to full draw with this beast.

So what about the arrows for this test? Group A was a sweet find on eBay a month ago-- 9 Sweetland Forgewoods, spined for 40-45# draw wt. bows. Five of these weigh exactly the same: 465 grains.

Group B are hardwood shafts; a bit shorter than my usual draw, so I only fired a few of these to see how they flew. Don't know what they weighed...

Group C are arrows made by David Ellenbogen, whose work I just can't say enough good things about. These are Port Orford cedar shafts cut about 40 years ago, at about 6500 feet of elevation; meticulously sorted by spine and by weight.

Group D are some aluminum Wal-Mart cheapies; I figured they might stand up to the Groves better than wood.

I shot about 60 shots yesterday, but the results raised a few questions that I had to go back and answer today-- things like whether the yarn puffs make a noticeable difference (i.e. do they slow the string enough to affect distance?). So... back I went today, and fired another 80 shots.

I left two bows home on Day 2: the Tarbell, because those big old tips made it noticeably slower (even though it has a FF string, btw!); and the 47# Spitfire, which is now in a box headed for Canada to join Pdiddly's collection.

I'm still doing the last of the number crunching, but I thought I'd get this much up to start with. You can all be guessing what kind of distances resulted. Oh, I forgot to mention that David's arrows are all 510 grains... so I expected that they wouldn't quite fly as far as the lighter and skinnier Sweetlands. Okay... back soon with the data!

Sorry for interrupting, but this going to be a great thread!

And just for the record, I invited Frisky to bring his two wonder-bows. Of course he didn't show up... so I simulated the results his bows would have obtained, by using an Indian Archery "Warrior" as a substitute for the Hunter-Flite, and a Samick Sage to represent his Deathmaster... heheh, no not really!

Okay here's the results from Day 1:

In the Lightweight category, using only the Sweetland arrows, the 38# Hoyt averaged 145 yd. and the 40# Mustang averaged 138 yd.(this made me wonder if the beaver fur puffs were slowing the Mustang down, so on Day 2 I put puffs on the Hoyt as well...)

In the middleweights, I fired both the Sweetland arrows and the Ellenbogen arrows (denoted with (S) and (E) hereafter). The results had the 44# Drake at 161 yd.(S) and 156 yd.(E); the 45# Howatt at171 yd.(S) and 155 yd.(E); and Fred's Mojo at 169 yd.(S) and 148 yd.(E). All in all, three very comparable bows... BUT the Howatt also had no string silencers, which required a Day 2 adjustment...

The light heavywieights sorted out like this: Spitfire at 162 yd.(S) and Red Wing Slimline at 160 yd. (S). The Eicholtz, from way back in 1955 or so, managed 153 yd.(S), and the Tarbell was back at 148 yd. (S) ( I didn't fire any other arrows with these four bows...ran out of time).

Finally, the heavyweights... I was pretty nervous about shooting those skinny little Sweetlands out of the bigger Spitfire... so I didn't! But the Bob Lee 3-pc. sent the Sweetlands 193 yd. When I fired the aluminum arrows, the Bob Lee sent them an average of 206 yd., and the Spitfire launched them about 230 yd. (and FWIW, a 1956 60# White Special that I fired here last week managed almost 220 yd. with the same arrows).

LOL - That is the funniest thing I have read so far this year!

This is fantastic! What a great looking proving ground!

So Day 2 was about getting more data, and making sure I was comparing apples to apples as much as I possibly could. I put puff silencers on the Hoyt and on the Damon Howatt, because they had seemed to "over-perform" slightly in the first round. There was a bit more of a headwind today, but I tried to fire when it was calmest.

I also only took 8 bows back on Day 2 (the Eicholtz, 47# Spitfire, and Tarbell all stayed home). I fired 10 shots with each bow-- 5 Sweetlands and 5 Ellenbogens apiece. Here's what happened today:

Lightweights: Hoyt did 131 yd.(S) and 122(E); Mustang did 145 yd.(S) and 128 yd.(E)... I think those puffs made a difference!

Middleweights: Drake shot 161 yd. again with (S), and 150 yd.(E) Howatt shot 156 yd.(S) and 135 yd.(E) (again, the puffs really hammered this bow's distance); and Fred's Mojo shot 152 yd.(S) and 145 yd.(E).

Light-heavyweights: The Red Wing Slimline was the only one in this category today; it shot 153 yd.(S) and 136 yd.(E).

Heavyweights: I fired all 10 through the Bob Lee; it shot 183 yd.(S) and 154 yd.(E). As for the Groves, I was running out of time, shoulder, and skin on my bare fingers; so I just fired one Ellenbogen arrow with it that went 160 yards.

Now I've gotta grind a few more numbers: I think if you divide the distance each bow averaged by the bow's draw weight, you'll get a fairly good comparison of performance. To give a simple example, if you have a 50# bow shooting 150 yds., the each pound of draw from that bow sends an arrow 3 yds.... whereas if a 40 # bow averages 140 yds. with the identical arrows, then each pound of draw with it gives 3.5 yd. of flight... so "pound-for-pound," it's a better performer...right? Be back in a little bit...

For these last numbers, I used only the data from Day 2. I added each bow's Sweetland arrow average distance to its Ellenbogen arrow average distance, and averaged that to get one number; i.e a "typical" shot with that bow. Then I divided that ave. distance by the draw weight at my personal draw.

As I said a few minutes ago, this seems to give yards of cast per pound of draw for each bow, using identical arrows. So with a drum roll, here's how they sorted out: 44# Drake: 3.27 (Frisky...shut up; I don't want to hear it!)

40# Mustang: 3.17

38# Hoyt: 3.11

46# Mojo: 3.06

45# Howatt: 3.03

56# Bob Lee: 2.81

50# RWS Pro: 2.75

I don't feel like I have enough data to try and assign a fair rank to the other bows, though I will say it was an awesome thing to shoot 230 yards with the Groves on Day 1!

Both the Hoyt PM and the Howatt Hunter lost ground on Day 2, after I put puff silencers on their strings. Since nothing else changed, I have to think they do indeed affect string speed.

I have some remaining questions: for instance, Fred's bow is the only one with snakeskin backings on the limbs... and I have to wonder if their weight/stiffness might be compromising the bow's performance a bit. Also, I think I may be getting a fair amount of "archer's paradox" wobble when I push those skinny arrows out of the 60# Bob Lee, so I'm not sure how much faith I have in that bow's ranking.

The saddest thing of all is imagining the field day Frisky will have when he sees that the Drake is a clear standout among all these great bows. I apologize to everyone on LW for the "Minnesota windstorm" we will all soon be subjected to...

Oh, one other bit of information: my stepson was standing off to the side, holding a 45-degree builder's square on top of a torpedo level. As I drew back for each shot, I elevated the bow gradually until it lined up with the edged of the square. When he said "There!", I would then release... so I think the angle of attack was virtually identical from one shot to the next.

That's very, very interesting...well done!! Lots of info to digest but a fairly objective analysis...results stayed the same (Drake) or varied in a predictable manner-bows slower with puffs second day. Showed that "operator error" was minimized.

When you found out the Drake ruled the day were you tempted to burn the results and scrap the whole idea, considering the predictable reaction of the "King of the North??? ;^)

Just askin',that's all...

Really neat information. Makes a guy think about the efficiency of the bow he draws for sure. That, and if all the new materials today really even give us any more performance then that of the older models??. - Bones

Bones, I agree. For instance, that 2013 Bob Lee 3-pc. is a beautiful bow, and I can shoot it accurately, and I love hunting with it. It even has a Fast-Flight string... and it cost me just over $1000 last year, and I'm not complaining at all-- a good bowyer deserves a good price for what he makes.

BUT... if my only reason for buying it was speed or cast, I'd be kicking myself when I saw how those fifty-plus year old bows performed. Actually, I love these results; to me it just shows how amazing things were in 1962; how well guys like Drake understood their bow design, etc.... and you can't tell me that today's bows are any prettier than that old Hoyt or the rosewood Howatt either!

Peter... I have already confessed to the "Minnesoter Gloater" about how this all ended up. I await his torment with grim resignation... and yes, I was tempted to fudge the numbers! He did at least agree that Fred's snakeskins probably cost the Mojo a bit of cast... but no further concessions were made.

Pdid: I've already got my fur hat and parka on because I'm expecting a big blow from the Minnesota direction! But Kerry doesn't have to hide the results. That Firedrake spent some time absorbing the magic from its kinfolks and the results show it. If Frisky will only send his Holey Grail over here so it can rub shoulders with others like it, he might dare to put it up against Kerry's Firedrake some day.

Bones, I agree completely. Black Widow, Wing, and several others(a lot of Bears, too)from the 60s performed on a par with a lot of custom bows available today. Those who doubt it haven't tried the best of the best. Some of the current custom designs by certain bowyers-and certain materials-give a pretty big edge to today's customs. But, on the whole, I always feel well-equipped with my classic recurves.

If I may do so, I'd like to throw in my two cents. Two cents is about all this "test" is worth in my opinion. I knew in advance the Drake would outshoot the crap going against it, including the Mojo. However, a Firedrake is no match for a Hunter-Flite! As Fred pointed out, the Hunter-Flite had Harry's actual flight limbs on it! You have to shoot the Grail, the best of the Hunter-Flites, to appreciate the raw speed, quietness and smoothness of the design! You must closely examine the beautiful limb tapers, the thinness of the limbs and the intricate power lams at the tips, and one comes to realize he's holding the Holy Grail of Bows! No other bow, with the exception of my Deathmaster, is going to outshoot it in flight competition! I just might show up at the next World's Flight Competition and clean house in the 45 and 54 pound open classes! I have the two best bows in the world, and no flight testing is complete without them! When I look at the distances fired here, I laugh! BRUHAHAHA!!!!!

The Legend

Tom, I knew those results wouldn't surprise you! And yes, clearly that Firedrake soaked up a little magic while it was living with you. If it's any consolation, I expect the brunt of Frisky's arctic blast will be aimed towards Maine... especially when he sees my remark about how I simulated his bows in the trial :-D

One other interesting tidbit is that, almost invariably, the five Ellenbogen arrows would land in a tighter group than the Sweetland arrows... in fact, on several occasions all five of David's arrows landed in an area about the size of a typical bedroom. I assure you, that's all about his arrows, and not about my shooting form!

Frisky-- I'll win this thing by default unless you can find your way out to a golf course and back up your huffing and puffing with some actual data!

Very good testing and very interesting results.

My dad use to have this "device" that he bolted to an old hickory tree in the back yard that you could lock a bow in and flight shoot it like you were doing. He wrote down some of his test in a book that I have.

But I'd like to put a fly in the ointment if I may. Were all these bows the same length? Going to make a difference also

To stir the pot a little what's the poundage and length on Frisky's Grail. If they are close in weight, got an old 36# 60" I'll run!

Y'all take care

When you have bows like mine, it's hard to find a field large enough to test them. At least it is around here. I need the Field of Arrows over in Turkey to test my mighty bows!

The Cast Master of the North

My Grail is 45 pounds and 54" in length. My Deathmaster is 54 pounds and 60" in length. Either will clean house on Oldbowyer's pile of junk any day of the week and twice on taco Tuesday!

The Legend

Frisky, that's lame-- your whole part of the country is one big field!

Oldbowyer-- here are the lengths: Hoyt 62"; Mustang 60"; Drake 66"; Howatt 62"; Mojo 62"; Eicholtz 62"; Tarbell 65"; 47# Spitfire 60"; Red Wing Slimline 58"; Bob Lee 58"; 64# Spitfire 56". I'd love to see what you get for results with your bow or bows; the more data the better.

Of course, anything shorter than 56" belongs in some other category entirely, like "toy bow" or "miniature bow," like the way they separate the dogs at dog shows. In fact, the very phrase "separating the dogs" makes me think of Frisky's bows. Rest assured, we will see no data from him, even if I were to send him the official flight arrows used in this test.

If you folks would like to feast your eyes upon a couple of real flight bows, and not the wannabes that kicked off this thread, here are two for ya.

The Legend

Well Frisky, I'll take that bet your getting ready to regret!

I'm getting ready to finish a riser my Dad started and did not finish. I'm building this bow just like he would have done it. With his cores and his glass. Just happens to be a 54" riser. Just happens to be I'm shooting for 45#. When I get her done be damn glad to bring this "junk" design to the field of honor.

I get the bow built, Crookedstix gets to set the rules to run them.

Good looking bows Frisky but they ain't got a snow balls chance in hell!

Y'all take care

Well, I did sort of want that bow you're building to be a good one, being it is kind of a bow of honor, but it's too bad it doesn't stand a chance against a true flight bow, built by the greatest American bowyer of all time! It would be kind of like putting a department store telescope up against the Hubble. Really not a fair deal.

Joe

Next thing we'll hear is Frisky needs to be careful flight shooting with the Grail for fear the arrows hit him in the back of the head!! Some great comments and observations here...one of the best threads in a long time. Really cool the way you set it up and labelled everything Kerry...also glad the way that old White performed!! :)

Interesting stuff, but I don't think your computation gives an accurate picture of relative performance.

"To give a simple example, if you have a 50# bow shooting 150 yds., the each pound of draw from that bow sends an arrow 3 yds.... whereas if a 40 # bow averages 140 yds. with the identical arrows, then each pound of draw with it gives 3.5 yd. of flight... so "pound-for-pound," it's a better performer...right? Be back in a little bit..."

If the 50# bow and the 40# bow are both shooting the same arrow, the gpp is different. Ie., one may be shooting 8 gpp, the other 10 gpp. That will affect their overall distance big time.

Fun to watch arrows fly though.

Thanks Frisky. I'll do my best building that riser of my Dads. Will be starting it soon along with its evil twin when material gets here.

And yes there is nothing more fun than launching arrows to watch them fly!

As much fun as this thread is to read, I have to go with Jerry (Orion) on this one. Apples to apples is near impossible to obtain. Congrats on recognizing the impact of string silencers. But I can come up with a bunch of other speed impacting variables that would move the results around that Crooked didn't address such as brace height, the string construction/type, arrow nock tension, strikeplate/centershot variations, identical gpp arrows, etc.

The test is accurate ONLY in showing how Crooked's bows, set up Crooked's way compare to one another. No conclusions about the bows themselves or of others with the same bow(s) can be made.

Granted, my long standing opinion, based on chrono testing, that when equalized, there isn't enough difference to matter, isn't near as much fun. But it IS reality.

Sorry Frisky.

Rick

Great thread.

Thanks for the numbers.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury:

Here is where Yorktown's theory fails to hold water. His testing, while probably controlled and with a fairly high degree of accuracy, did not test fast bows! He tested a bunch of crappy, dog-slow bows! Bows like Bears, Pearsons, Shakespeares, Widows and such. Naturally, there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between them! They're all crap, as I've been telling you for years! How many Deathmasters, the legendary Bow of Bows, did he test? None. How many 45 pound Drake Hunter-Flites did he test? None. If you leave out the two bows that are head and shoulders above all others, you're gonna skew the results. So, I stand, undaunted, in the face of Yorktown's so-called reality.

The Mighty Legend of the North

Quote from a character near the ending of the movie "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance".

"When the truth conflicts with the legend, print the legend."

Have at it Frisky.

Rick

Best thread on here in a long time: well-presented, interesting topic followed by good-natured, collegial banter. Made me want to go outside and fling arrows.

Said it before but a big X2 to Dan...this is a great thread because we're discussing shooting arrows out of trad bows. Couldn't have done this with a wheel bow because they'd need a range finder!!!

" How far is forever???"

Interesting.LOL

I just had an hour-long talk with David Ellenbogen, who reminded me that this exercise teaches us about arrows as well as bows. Of course he was quite pleased to hear that his arrows repeatedly were landing in a tighter group (both front-to-back and side-to-side). When I was telling him the spread in range between his 510 grain arrows and the 465-grain Sweetlands, his ears pricked up at the results that Fred's bow, the Drake, and the Bob Lee achieved. Each of these bows sent the heavy arrows almost as far as they did the light ones, and he got quite animated over that fact.

"That's the sign of a really good set of limbs!", he said; and he said that Fred's longbows perform the same way-- they shoot good with heavy shafts; they shoot good with light ones.

While I will readily agree that it's hard to control all the variables, as Yorktown and Orion pointed out, I'm not fully sold on the importance of shooting different arrows that are identical gpp for each bow. Whether you set up your test this way or the way I did, you still wind up with draw weight down in the denominator group of factors. That said, I have no trouble believing that every bow will have its own "sweet spot" of arrow weight that it performs best at.

This thread definitely wasn't about whose bow can shoot for the greatest absolute distance! Believe me, if I wanted to impress anybody with my 38# Hoyt, I would NOT be shooting 510 grain 11/32" wooden arrows into a 5 mph headwind on an 18º January day! This was about just controlling the few factors (i.e. removing any variables)that I easily could, to begin to understand RELATIVE performance between bows. All of my strings are Dacron, made by Stilldub, except the two bows that came to me with FF already on them. I don't tweak my brace height looking for more distance, etc. etc.... so while it was a long way from having true scientific rigor, it nonetheless taught me quite a bit-- and got me outside on a day so clear that I could see David's yellow cock feathers spinning all the way downrange, against a deep blue sky. Worth the price of admission right there!

I mentioned the air temperature just now because cold air is so much harder to move through. I ride my bike in winter, and had always noticed how hard it was to ride fast when it's cold... so one day I plugged some numbers into Boyle's equation, and lo and behold the air is something like 20% heavier at zero degrees than at room temperature. The air was at least 15 degrees colder on Day 2 than on Day 1, and the resulting distances did indeed drop off-- especially for the thicker arrows. Nothing else had changed-- same bows, arrows, and shooter-- so I think colder air was the reason.

Really, what did you learn? I'll tell you. You learned that Harry Drake's bow was the fastest of your so-called greatest bows of all time. The bow with the greatest cast is the fastest bow. That was the result, and you didn't even shoot the fastest Drake! You learned that you should have listened to me when I advised you to stop buying junk and just get a Drake and a Deathmaster and be done with it. You were too proud to listen to the wise one. Now, you're stuck with a pile of junk bows and a drained bank account, while I proudly strut around this place, owner of the two fastest bows here! Then you wonder why folks insist on calling me the legend.

The Legend

I'll take that junky Hoyt Pro Medalist, iffn you have a hankerin to let it go. 8^). I'll pay shipping.

That's a kind offer, George... I'll consider it!

Actually, I think the first model year Hoyt PM is the single most important American recurve ever made, in terms of the ripples it sent through the industry. Add to that the rarity of these 62" models, and the crazy-pretty wood they used in this one-- nah, I'd better hang on to it.

But-- if and when I make it down to visit you, I'll bring it with me and leave it on sabbatical with you for a month or two; no problem!

" while I proudly strut around this place, owner of the two fastest bows here! "

the first true statement made in this thread. i'm confident your two bows are the fastest at your house! it's just when you take them somewhere else that they show their true abilities.

LOL!!

LOL! Be careful, because I have a Howatt Hunter in this house! As soon as I have the funding, I'm heading out to the world flight championships to get my world records! Drake will once again reign supreme!

Joe

Just curious, how did you determine the elevation on your test?

He used a crude methodology.

Crooked.... as much as I am interested in your tests and results, that picture of the field catches my attention. I envy your patience and diligence, as instead of focusing on the tests as you did, I would be tempted to just string my bow and stalk the edges of the field for a bunny or squirrel.

snuffer, is this what you were asking about?

"Oh, one other bit of information: my stepson was standing off to the side, holding a 45-degree builder's square on top of a torpedo level. As I drew back for each shot, I elevated the bow gradually until it lined up with the edged of the square. When he said "There!", I would then release... so I think the angle of attack was virtually identical from one shot to the next. "

Or elevation compared to sea level.

crookedstix, in your spare time maybe you do do an experiment to compare different elevations of the bow to see which one is best. Or maybe scientific data supports that 45 degrees is best.

even we people that shoot and set flight records have a terrible time keeping the bow and our body at the proper angle through the shot with every arrow. typically, our arrows vary in distance as much as 20 yards in a 6 arrow set. there are so many variables in flight shooting that a test like this is interesting but has no basis for fact. just my opinion.

Frisky,

I WANT your Hunter Flight! I'll be in the market this spring when I get some dough! I'd like to try an build one though I do not know his complex (I suspect) limb tapers. I have some ideas after spendining many hours on the phone with Dave Paxton who made a very fast 59 Kodiak replica.

I've THOROUGHLY ENJOYED reading through this thread!

That 62" PM -I've got one too and its a sweet shooter! Hoyt made a 62" version for hunting. with bubinga riser and dark green limbs in the late 1960's. Mine's a PM though 29# I use it to practice form or my girlfriend uses it when we shoot.

Peace! CR

cleen..... you'll never get your filthy mitts on the fabled Holy Grail of Bows! The bow that could put Larry's best to shame, as he refused to learn from the king, Harry Drake!

Joe

actually, the king has two crowns! one is on ike hancock who built some of the bows harry competed with, and the other is on don brown who still holds the unlimited record of 1336-1-3. i have the bow he used. he made it. pulls 138# sadly, harry only still has one record, 25kg.. and while don brown competed with and built bows like the test bows, harry normally just shot flight bows. don't remember harry ever setting a record with a standard recurve field bow. don had the record for field bows in the 70#, and 50# catagory. believe they were broke a few years ago.

Interesting. I think the king was just too modest to put his Hunter-Flite into competition. Otherwise, he'd own many records to this day. Doesn't Harry still hold the foot bow record of over a mile?

Joe

Reddogge, I wondered the same thing, and wanted to try a bunch of shots at a lower angle the next time out. I'll keep the same bow, same arrows, and just try varying the angles with five shot groups.

Larry, this first go-round was a lot of fun, but like any interesting pursuit it raises more new questions than it answers old ones. I'd enjoy hearing anything you'd care to share about how you coax 400 yards out of a 50# longbow! I also wonder if flight shooters have to dress up in whites like this guy, and do that little two-step at release. Frisky and I thought Fred might have some clothes like that in his closet that we could borrow when this stuff gets serious!

My brother-in-law, the engineer, was getting interested in this stuff and said he was pretty sure that it would defy any simple linear math; he was kind of agreeing with what you said about it not proving much. But... it's also hard to argue against real-world results, and if you shoot two 45# bows 100 times each with identical arrows, and one consistently outcasts the other...then it's probably safe to conclude that somethin's up. Your observation about a 20 yard spread in a group of 6 arrows definitely jibes with what I was seeing

LOL - I wonder if the archer in the above photos is demonstrating "follow through"! lol

Heck, I consider a 20 yard spread to be the result of poor form!

Joe

I really wish we could have had a wind-free day to be doing the testing, too. Some shots it would be calm when I released, but then I'd see the tree tops and branches moving downrange while the arrow was in the air.

In one sense, I really wanted to try some shots at a lower angle to see how that might affect distance. But... I stuck with the 45-degree angle because it was replicable from one shot to the next. I wasn't after absolute distances so much as relative ones.

Heaven help Frisky and his Drake if I ever set my sights on maximizing distance! I'll just break out this new 45# Staghorn I just got, and get myself some carbon-fiber knitting needle arrows, and point them towards Minnesota! But I'm really more interested in relative performance between bows than in absolute distances.

Love the colour of the glass on that bow...bet Frisky does too!!

Behold, the Turquoise Terminator!!

Kerry, if we ever meet up I'll bring my T65 to meet your new T64, see if they get along! Sort of a city boy meets country cousin. But you would have to pull mine to around 33" to match your T64's draw weight. Don't know about Frisky, but I am green with envy of its turquoise limbs.

That pile of junk scares me not. Bob Savage was telling me about a Staghorn he shot. Said it was so loud, he thought he broke it!

Joe

Joe, I bet Bob Savage wasn't referring to the sound, rather the fancy wood and glass. I have a really loud tie like that. I only wear it at award ceremonies (in my case, never at all).

No. He was referring to the noise it produced. Said it was the loudest bow he ever shot!

Joe

harry drakes foot bow.

and his regular flight bow.

the regular flightbow has a hole through the center of the riser and a long overdraw that permits shooting a 14" knitting needle diameter arrow with razor blade fletching

Nice pics Larry!

I have owned one Drake bow, in the late sixties from memory. It blew up the second time I used it which was not uncommon for the time. Back in the sixties we shot a lot of clout. 180 and 160 yards. I was shooting Hoyt PMs at the time and always did very well during comps. This test while very interesting does not show true performance because of the limitation of the 45 deg angle of trajectory. But of course crookedstix had to decide the parameters with which he was going to conduct his test so I guess it was a starting point. Getting the draw length exactly the same each shot would have been difficult unless a klicker was used. This would account for arrow scatter. Shooting clout all those years ago at 180 yards I could group my arrows in a two foot circle depending on being able to read the wind at the time. Most of the Hoyt PMs I shot at the time would achieve nearly 400 yards flight shooting Easton alloy target shafts. Nothing better than shooting shafts into the air and watching them disappear in the distance. Love it!!!

Thanks, Downunder-- is "clout" slang for heavier arrows? Or is it long-range target shooting? Also, is there an agreed-upon vertical angle that will maximize distance?

I actually feel like my draw length and firing angle were pretty consistent. It's very easy to sight across the edge of that triangle and determine when the arrow is parallel to it; and on the draw length I was pulling until the back of the metal point was even with the front of the bow. But you're right-- the fact that I was having both range and angular scatter means I'm not a very perfect shooting machine!

I just found an online air density calculator, and learned that the air on my 18-degree day was about 12% heavier than if it had been 72 degrees. I wonder if that 12% translates directly to a 12% distance cost. Fun stuff... how many gpp would you have been pushing with those alloy shafts?

Clout is long range target shooting onto a flat target which consisted of circles on the ground. The ranges for senior men was 180 and 160 yards. Clout or battle clout as it was sometimes called relates back to the time of battle in Europe when archers in groups fired arrows into the air to rain down onto an opposing army. Very effective in wiping out the enemy at long range. The English used this strategy very effectively against the French in a number of battles. The two fingered salute dates from this time. English archers would goad the French by saluting them with two fingers in the air. The French would cut off the fingers of captured English archers. Shooting in target archery events a cool change coming through during a target event in the summer would cause your arrows to drop up to a foot or more when shooting 90M at a FITA event. Cold dense air really slows the arrow down so it would have had an effect on your tests. No idea of GPP, it was not a calculation that we used at the time from memory.

Crookedstix, why don'tcha ask Tom Brady bout how the temperature affects Air pressure and how his balls deflated ???

Why don't we take a vote and see if that Frisky fellar even has a chance of winning??? ROFLMAO

Ole Thumper

Thump- From where I plan to release my arrows, to the center of the west-bound lanes of Interstate 90, is 590 yards. When I shoot the Bow of Bows and the Holy Grail of Bows, we might well have to have the State Troopers close off I-90!

Joe

there used to be a clout shoot at every major target shoot, (york and american rounds) in the northwest when i started shooting a bow in the fifties. they are fun. the optimum angle for flight depends on the conditions. whether there is any kind of breeze or wind, what kind of breeze or wind, (gusty, sustained etc.), temperature and time of day. the trick is not the assuming a desired angle. the trick is to hold that angle completely through the shot.

Downunder-- That's very neat stuff; thanks for filling me in-- and you've reminded me of the French taunting the English from their battlements in the Monty Python movie. If Frisky gives me too much lip I'll catapult a cow his way!

Next time out I'll definitely be tinkering with angles, and I'll also have a target. It didn't really occur to me the day I was testing to see how close I could land them to each other, it just sort of happened when it happened. I'll also have some new skinny arrows so those poor lightweight bows can shoot something less than 11 gpp.

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