From: GF
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Jinkster’s post about sub-optimal results when shooting the longest available model of a bow which was designed to be shot at a shorter length has got me scratching my head some…. I’m not one to buy, sell, swap or trade bows; I fell for archery when I was about 10 and I’ve been at this sport, shooting hunting-weight recurves, for 25 years – half a lifetime – and have had my “New” bow for about 10 years or so. Both that one and its only predecessor are 62” recurves marked #55 @ 28”. Fairly long, as hunting recurves go….
On the other hand, I stand 5’ 4”, with a 25.5” draw, from my primary anchor to the deepest part of the grip. Fairly short, as adult humans go. And something tells me that I’m probably not getting optimal efficiency out of my bows.
Now before anybody thinks I need to be blasted for holding an interest in arrow velocity…. Just save it. The reality is that with a 7.5” brace height, I have an 18” power stroke working for me. Compared to an honest, 29” DL, that puts me at about a 20% disadvantage. As a point of comparison, consider your chances in a drag race between two 100% identical vehicles if you take your foot off the gas at 2 tenths of a mile. Same weight, same horsepower, same rate of acceleration; but if you drop out of the race 90 yards short of the finish line, you’re gonna get your tail kicked!
OTOH, if I can shoot the same draw weight & the same GPP and pick up some feeps without having to endure any undue increase in noise, handshock or fingerpinch, it seems worth pursuing to me. If you are offended by that, PUT A SOCK IN IT!!
So rather than airing my own (potentially-crack-pot) theories about what makes for the fastest bow for a short draw length… what do you bow designers think?
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From: tonto59
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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My guess would be a short bow. Like the Kodiak Magnum, Super Kodiak Magnum or Browning's Cobra. What about mounting an over draw on a recurve? Just a thought.
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From: tonto59
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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What material is your arrow made out of?
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From: Dkincaid
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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My thoughts are of its worked for you up to this point no reason to change now.
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From: Backcountry
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Never mind what your arrows are made of...what color are they?!
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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My draw is 27" and I have found I prefer risers that are a bit longer than average with short working limbs. I don't know what the difference really would amount to in speed, but there are things you can do to enhance performance. I like the skinny, low stretch strings on mine as well. I think that helps make up for a shorter draw...packing more punch per inch.
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From: scs
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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I'm in the same boat as GF, so I'd like to hear peoples thoughts, too.
Steve
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From: Backcountry
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Ok, seriously now, as a shorter feller myself, I've wondered the same thing.
You might want to check out the draw-force curves on Blacky Schwartz's bow tests-- that might be enlightening.
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From: tonto59
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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The reason I asked what material arrow you shoot. I have some 27 and 3/4" gold tip 55/75 arrows up for trade on classifieds. These are like new. They don't look like they were ever shot. To short for me to shoot. If you think you can use them PM me.
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From: GLF
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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62" is too long for you to get much speed from it. I have a long draw but my wife was little and had a 24" draw. Her favorite bow was her Kodiak mag but she had one alot faster at her draw that was close to the same weight. A friend of ours made her a 54" recurve with a slightly reflexed riser fades instead of the deflexed riser of the k mag and medium fades. The limbs were just maple actionwood. The new bow gave her decent speed, more like a 28" draw would have. She didn't like the grip so didn't use it a lot but she got somewhere around 180 fps out of it at about 9 gpp if memory serves me right. He passed away a while back so can't ask him any details. Let people complain that you like speed, but remember speed kills, along with a few other factors.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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They be way too stiff for me Tonto59.
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From: tonto59
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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That's too bad George. Cause I would of swapped you for That Michell 300 spinning reel. ;-)
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From: Dale in Pa.
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Matt, I think you can pick up some speed by going to a 58 or 60" bow. Like George said, one with a longer riser and shorter limbs.
If you shot 62" bows all your life I don't think you'd be happy with a 52 or 54" bow. I only draw 27" on a good day and I don't like anything shorter than 60"
If you are having a custom built by someone who tailors your bow to your draw length they would probably add a little more limb taper per inch so the recurves open up sooner as well.
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From: Dale in Pa.
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Don't know much about ILF bows, but I would assume you could do the same thing by choosing longer riser,shorter limbs.
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From: GF
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Gary – your description of that bow sounds like somebody out there understands what we stubby guys are up against! 180 fps at 9 GPP out of a 24" draw sounds like a miracle in its own right...
Check me for understanding… The reflexed riser fades would lower the optimal brace height and/or affect tiller in a manner similar to what happens with the longer risers that GDS prefers, correct?
I have this (aforementioned, potentially-crackpot) theory that you get more speed out of a bow when the limb tips are accelerating away from each other (in the vertical dimension), rather than when they are both traveling forward. Should take the slack out of the bowstring quicker.
Also, when vertical travel stops, it creates no hand-shock; you only feel the forward momentum of the limbs, so speed need not necessarily bring with it a shock penalty…
Dale – thanks for the input… I just ran the math…. As I tend to do…. Looks like 60” divided by your draw length = 2.222… so 2.222 X my 25.5” says I should be as happy at 56 & 2/3” as you are at 60”… Not sure I need to go that short, but it’s something to consider… Gary’s wife’s bow (at 54”) falls right in line with that ratio…
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From: JusPassin
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Just remember that as the bow gets shorter, the string angles go up, and the ability to cleanly control the release goes down. There's always a trade off.
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From: GLF
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Sorry that was meant to be reflexed riser and shorter fades. But yes it in a sense gives you a longer power stroke.
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From: GLF
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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You may not want a bow that short but the same reflexed riser would work to give you a longer power stroke no matter the length bow. And as George said longer riser and shorter limbs.
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From: 2nocks
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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at the expense of stating the obvious, a bow that likes a lower brace height will help.
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From: Jay B
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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After finally settling in to an anchor point that puts me right at a 28" draw, I find shooting 60" to 62" bows to be most comfortable to shoot.
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From: robert
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Get a heavier bow, when I wanted faster arrow speeds I just get a heavier bow, it works.
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From: ela gözlü avci
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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The design you ask is turkish traditional bow design. Bows made with authentic methods (sinew+horn+wood) can be as short as 90 cm (the shortest measured among the bows in Topkap? Palace Museum, Istanbul) but was probably a flight bow. But there were even war bows as short as 110 cm(measured on the belly in unstrung position). Turkish bows are efficient in shorter draws, usually 26 to 28 as indicated by the short arrows inhe museum collections. The longest arrow(shaft) kniwn is just 29". For hunting purposes you can get Grozer "biocomposite short" with a relatively high poundage at 28" so that you can be provided by enough energy at a shorter draw. These bows are designed to shoot with thmb draw but would worked well with Flemish draw, even with Mediterennean draw with no finger pinch (short draw length).
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From: GF
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Robert - I'm not opposed to going a bit heavier - or more than just a bit, so long as my thrice-rehabbed right rotator will put up with it - but why, oh, WHY would I buy a heavier bow (in pursuit of a faster arrow) and not insist on a bow design that would give me the greatest possible increase in velocity per increased pound of draw weight?
To borrow 2nocks phrasing... "at the expense of stating the obvious".... That'd be kinda silly, wouldn't it?
Murat - that style of bow has been on my radar, but in order to keep the conversation more geared towards questions than answers... I think the flex pattern of the Turkish bows supports my theory that it is best to bend the limbs in such a way that vertical limb tip travel is maximized... Though I am curious as to whether it is possible to design a bow to incorporate that benefit in addition to a lower brace height and therefore a longer power stroke....
Bear in mind (all of you!) that I'm not planning to go to any extremes here because I appreciate, smoothness, quietness and stability as much as the next guy - and probably more than most, given what I've been shooting all these years... But I think I'm already camped out well onto the shoulder of the road as it is. Not too different from a guy who's 6' hunting with a 68" or 70" recurve, and you just don't see that every day... Do you??
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From: Gaur
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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If you can get it your hands on a 54" drake hunter flite. I think you might really like it. Doug, whom I got if from, has a 26" DL as well. I'm drawing it 281/2" there are small wedges in the tips on this bow. Very fast, flat shooter but smooth draw
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From: Backcountry
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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Oh great. Now we'll be having Frisky jump in on this and only confounding the issue!
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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You should not think about just bow length, I guess I should have stated it better. You can get as much of a power stroke on a longer bow with shorter working limbs. In my experience, the Howatt Hunter, that is 62", is a very fast bow at my draw, and loses nothing to a bow 8" shorter. The Hunter is one of those bows with a long(er) riser and short working limbs. Ideally you could try a few, but just think about how the limbs work, not just bow length.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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I agree with Guar and George. The Howatt Hunter is fast, but I don't like the 62" length and I'm nearly 6ft tall and have a 28" draw. I love the Drake Hunter-Flite and think it's at least as fast as the Hunter. Maybe faster. Better shooting than my Hunter for sure, and it's 54". They want too much for the Drake currently on eBay in my opinion. I would look at Howatt Hunters if you like a longer bow.
Joe
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From: badger
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Date: 09-Jan-15 |
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60" highly reflexed recurve, 18" riser, stiff outer limb with short bending area near the fade.
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From: oldgoat
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Date: 10-Jan-15 |
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I would think a highly efficient, static tip bow with lots of preload! Have you ever had the chance to shoot one of the Dryad ACS recurves? They and some of the other similar designs with deep hooks like the Border Covert Hunter seem to me to have the most oomph out there.
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From: ela gözlü avci
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Date: 10-Jan-15 |
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Matt! The bow with a very similar design but with longer power stroke is the Korean bow. These two types of bow differ mainly on their limb extremities. The triangular thickned section of Turkish bow (called "kasan") makes an unbendable or semi-bendable limb part. The highly reflexed bow works mainly on "sal" section, so the bow is under very high strain. Both Turkish and Korean bows' exaggrated reflex make them severely strained bows and therefore allow them store more energy in the earlier draws. Korean bows' limbs have longer working section and are drawn 31-32''. Remember it is only 130 cm (51'').
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From: fdp
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Date: 10-Jan-15 |
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Unless there is a some physical ailment to keep you from doing it, the BEST thing that you can do is extend your draw length. And is spite of what many tell you, you can. Particularly if you now anchor at the corner of your mouth.
All you have to do is find a different place on your face to use. If you move from the corner of your mouth, to the hollow of your jaw, or under your jaw bone, you will gain AT LEAST an inch or more.
In addition, you may just find that you are also more solid at anchor, with better alignment. The corner of the mouth, while the most common position, is not necessarily the best, or most effective. There is a certain amount prejudice in this country toward alternative anchor points. By extending your anchor, you are likely to find it easier to engage your back muscles on BOTH sides of your body.
I know many will disagree, but if you don't believe it will work, make you up a TEST bow out of a piece of PVC pipe and some parachute cord, mark an arrow, stand so that you can see the markings on the arrow in a mirror, and give it a try.
And no, it doesn't make less capable of making out of position shots, shooting quickly, canting your bow, shooting from your knees, or any of those other arguments that get thrown around.
You do however have to be willing to give the change a chance to become ingrained. The only own side is that your current arrows will be too short.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 10-Jan-15 |
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Interesting comment on the Turkish and Korean bows. The Drake Hunter-Flite has Turkish-style flight limbs. Maybe that's why it's so fast?
Joe
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From: Nimrod
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Date: 10-Jan-15 |
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I tend to agree with Mr. Stout on this one. Long riser with short limbs works best for me with my short 26" draw. Not sure on bow length making much difference in performance with your draw. I've shot plenty of longer bows and they worked great. One of the best bows I ever shot was a 64" r/d. Shoot the bow you like. I shoot 60" Bear Super Kodiaks............Nimrod
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From: JFH
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Date: 10-Jan-15 |
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My daughter has a 25" draw length and was shooting a 42# 62" "target" bow and was only gettig "fair" arrow speed. I picked up a 56" 43# Dark Archer and man what a diffeence. Much faster, flatter shooting, and hit much harder. I believe that with a shorter bow you have the limbs working more in the sweet spot of the power stroke...............
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From: fdp
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Date: 10-Jan-15 |
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The "sweet spot" of the power stroke is a product of the bow design. A 68" recurve or long bow can have the same amount of working limb as a 56" bow. It all has to do with how you design and build the bow.
The majority of bows are made to meet the needs of the majority of archers. Even many "custom" bows are no different.
Short working limbs and long risers (given correct over all bow length) are some of the most efficient designs made.
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From: Backcountry
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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Don't overlook a Damon Howatt High-Speed. I think those were all 56".
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From: Todd the archer
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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You all over looked a very important statistic in his first post.
GF stated his draw was 25.5” from his primary anchor to the deepest part of the grip. If you add the AMO standard of 1 3/4" he has a draw of 27.25" not all that short as perceived when you saw his original 25.5" number.
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From: badger
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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At 5'4" thats a pretty long draw, I am under 5'7" and have a 26 1/2" draw.
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From: Pdiddly
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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Hi-Speeds are 54" and 58". They would be a good choice as they have a long riser.
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From: Bowsage
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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I'm 5'6" after hanging on a chinning bar... 27" draw.I'm thinking I cannot do any better as I shoot all Fedora's. I use Mikes arrrows when he sets me up meaning I have the same draw length. I believe when he customizes a bow for me he would know how to accomodate me. Heck , give him a call, he's been building them for 50 plus years....continuously.
He is working on my next one and he mentioned putting a little static in the tips to maximize limb performance.
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From: Bowsage
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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I'm 5'6" after hanging on a chinning bar... 27" draw.I'm thinking I cannot do any better as I shoot all Fedora's. I use Mikes arrrows when he sets me up meaning I have the same draw length. I believe when he customizes a bow for me he would know how to accomodate me. Heck , give him a call, he's been building them for 50 plus years....continuously.
He is working on my next one and he mentioned putting a little static in the tips to maximize limb performance.
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From: GF
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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Todd/Steve - thanks for noticing the distinction.... FWIW, I shoot a deep hook with my thumb tucked behind the corner of my jaw; the knuckle at the base of my index finger pins my earlobe against my head, and I use a pull-through release whenever possible... Which occasionally results in flinging my glasses off of my head when the bowstring slips behind the corner of a lens... but that's usually on a snap-shot when I am much more likely to really over-draw...
I've only put a few shots through a chrono, which stopped working before my very eyes... so I don't know that I can really trust the numbers. But what I got for my '89/'90 Hunter was low 180s at about 8.5 GPP and mid 160s at about 10... And that was with a Martin dacron string, so nothin' fancy at all... And that was when I was using a more "standard" anchor point, so that might have cost me a good 1/2" or more in DL...
So looking at that.. and assuming the numbers are honest... I might be hard-pressed to improve on what I've got already....
I just have this itch for a longbow and am trying to figure out what designs make the most sense...
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From: deadeye
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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My wife has a 24" draw and shoots a A&H 58"@43@28" with 800 spine arrows and it is smoking fast. She was shooting a Martin Dream catcher before and it is SLOWWWW compared to her A&H
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From: Andy Man
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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Don't know what "trates" are in this one, ,but it is noticably faster than any other recurve I have shot
54" bow and a 26" draw 48#'s at that draw
most of my recurves like 2016 aluminums but had to go up to 2117 to get good arrow flight with the same weight points (175 grain)
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From: Andy Man
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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same bow
I just chalked it up to the short length- no finger pinch at my 26" draw, and plesant to shoot
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From: GF
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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Not that I don't believe you fellers, but I sure would love to have some actual numbers to define "smokin' fast".....
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From: Andy Man
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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GF
have no chrno here , but compaired to my Black Widow and Robertson recurve , of simular weights , this little short one appears visably /noticably faster
more than one person has comented on the speed
the speed dosn't really matter , but it does appear rather effichent for a short draw length
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From: roger
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Date: 12-Jan-15 |
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In my experiences, speed doesn't correlate to bow length. What you want for an efficiency in short draw lengths is one that gains weight at a higher?highest rate at your draw length. In other words, the draw force curve is rising sharper or at it's height, or close(r) to it, at your (short) draw length. This can be very difficult with very short draw lengths. I'd consult various manufacturers as they should have this information. Bow length would actually not be a consideration for me at all when looking at efficiency.
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From: BabblingBob
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Date: 13-Jan-15 |
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GF - You are lucky. A short draw is a great thing and allows for a lot of flexibility compared to long draw lengths. As stated in answers above, a shorter bow will usually be easier to handle. Since you will loose 4 to 6 pounds of draw weight for a bow marked at 28 inches, this can be a great advantage for selecting heaiver bows when searching the marketplace. Guys with long draws have to be more specific when selecting bows.
I have a short draw length like yours, but my go to bows are long simply becaue I don't worry about speed since the distances most people shoot now days are so short, or less than 35 yards so it does not make much difference. Not like when we shot those 65 and 80 yd targets for field archery. Arrow speed and a flat trajectory mattered more then, but I would just shoot a light skinny target arrow then on a long target bow and it worked well.
Again, a short draw is a great advantage for shooting any type of bow as speed does not matter most of the time. They make a lot of great two blade broadheads for serious hunting that will offset slow arrow speed.
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From: GF
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Date: 13-Jan-15 |
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Not sure I’d agree that speed rarely matters, but it IS a fickle thing. Aerodynamic drag increases exponentially with velocity, so going lighter (GPP) in order to get a higher reading across the chrono may not gain you anything at all once you get past 25 yards or so… (Scroll to the bottom of this page – http://www.bobleebows.net/reviews_ratings_recurveslongbows.html Check the numbers and tell me what you think… I’m thinking this is a whole new thread about to happen…).
Maybe 25 yards is farther than a lot of hunters will shoot these days, and I don’t ever criticize ANYONE for keeping his shots short. OTOH, if a guy can empty his quiver shooting point-on down the sideline of a soccer field and they all land in the paint… who am I to tell him he has no business taking a 35-yard shot at an Elk? Mind you, the hang time factor creeps me out a bit, but that’s where a little extra speed never hurts… I crunched a bunch o’ numbers, and it appears that just 10 fps is enough of a difference even at 20 yards for the faster arrow to be out the far side of a deer before the slower one has even cut hair, let alone drawn blood.
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From: yorktown5
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Date: 13-Jan-15 |
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I've re-read these posts several times, not offering my opinion because I couldn't figure out the question. Still can't GF.
Draw any bow X inches, it delivers Y energy. Simple physics. It doesn't matter long-short draw, bow style or anything else.
With the minor clarification of high vs. lower brace affecting pre-load and the amount of time the arrow stays on the string at release, the question's intent still escapes me.
Got a bow that draw weighs say #50 for an archer with a normal draw length and it might be a 53# bow for the fellow with a longer draw or #47 for a person with a shorter DL.
Question: If in the above example we assume a 500 grain arrow is it 10gpp for all three archers? Nope. Under 10gpp for the longer draw archer, more than 10gpp for the shorter fellow.
So you asked an oddly worded Q. with an oddly simple answer. Max speed/power will come from any bow in which your draw length and the maximum amount of pounds you can comfortably pull match up. And you boost that with a hi-performance string.
You can get to your max comfortable shorter draw length's draw weight either buy using a bow a few pounds heavier @ 28" as several mention, OR by finding a bow that is beginning to stack at your draw so as to reach your max. comfort drawing power. (Many are in the smooth full draw-no-stack camp. I'm not. I believe a bow that provides stack feedback at full draw provides an uptick in repeatable accuracy.)
As you have asked for specifics; 9gpp and an honest 28" WILL come in around 180 fps, perhaps a few fps more with a perfect string and 10gpp will usually fall around 170 or less with a lesser string. And which bow makes NO DIFFERENCE as apples to apples there isn't enough difference to argue about.
You mention a longbow. Well, d/r longbows DO tend to hit a beginning stack at lesser draw lengths than all but the shortest of recurves and an excellent shorter one that's value priced is the Samick CA-60. Tweak the arrow shelf a bit past center, add a high performance string and for just a bit past $200 you'll have a bow equal to speed and performance to any custom longbow. Buy one 5 pounds higher than you might normally purchase and I think you'll have what you seek.
Rick
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From: reddogge
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Date: 13-Jan-15 |
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I'd suggest an ILF 17" riser with short limbs to make a 58" bow. Being ILF you can dial in your sweetspot buy adjusting your preload.
I also like the suggestion of changing your anchor. But if you are 27 1/4" to the back of the bow then you are fine with most set ups. I wouldn't worry too much.
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From: yorktown5
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Date: 13-Jan-15 |
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Trust what Blues says. He's shooting my old 64# Super-K Black Beauty so he cannot tell a fib.
Rick
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From: Sixby
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Date: 13-Jan-15 |
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shorter the bow is the more distance the limbs have to move. I have seen bows in the 64 inch range that the limbs only move 4 or 5 inches. The power is stored in the rest of the limb. In an extremely short bow we need to make sure those limbs move a relatively short distance. This could mean long static tips with perfectly even geometry in the working limb. Something I am working on as time allows.
God bless, Steve
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From: GF
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Date: 13-Jan-15 |
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Rick - #1 – I appreciate the thoughtful answer
#2 – I’m gonna disagree with you anyway… Except for the part about stacking at one hair’s breadth past your anchor. Compound shooters like a “solid back wall” for a reason, and it has to have a LOT to do with minimizing the shot-to-shot variability in velocity, and that certainly ought to improve accuracy.
But the reason I’m going to disagree is exactly what you said about “the minor clarification of high vs. lower brace affecting pre-load and the amount of time the arrow stays on the string at release…”
Pre-load adds appreciably to the total energy stored under the draw force curve, and brace height affects the distance/time over which accelerative force is applied to the arrow IN ADDITION to increasing the area under the DF curve. But then you add the complication of limb tip travel… I drew out some figures with all of the force vectors indicated, and it appears to me that for any given modulus, you get about twice the acceleration when the limb tips are traveling (vertically) in opposite directions vs. when they are traveling (horizontally) down-range….. which is no doubt why the fastest Contraptions feature long risers, low brace heights, and short working limbs with tips which travel (a very short distance) almost 100% in the vertical.
But you can do things with wheels and cams that you cannot replicate with leaf springs, and – near as I can tell – the lower the brace height, the more forward/horizontal travel you’ll get out of the limb tips… but if a low brace height is Good and horizontal tip travel is Bad…
Sixby - you may have to explain the bit about " perfectly even geometry in the working limb"... using real small words! ;)
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From: Oldbowyer
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Date: 14-Jan-15 |
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I think your just looking for an argument. Sixby's words are short enough. No matter what your draw length a longer bow will always be faster than a shorter bow. But everything is a compromise!
Your original post is on what a designer thinks. A designer is always looking for the best compromise in a bows length to what most people will draw it at. An Average. And that's what we build to.
Now to kick the tires and light the fire. I was raised by a bow designer and have designed a few of my of my own. So the question would be to you. How deep are your pockets??? What your asking for would be a one off from any of the fine bowyers out there. Many of them can "custom" build you a bow to fit your parameters to give you the maximum performance for your short power stroke. Time is money and who ever takes up this challenge is going to spend a good amount of his time and his money to build you that one bow.
I hope my words weren't to big. Not real sure what your after, but traditional equipment has its limitations. You might consider a good compound!
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From: fide archer
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Date: 14-Jan-15 |
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Another option: bear mag td with #1limbs-56" hits the wall at 28"
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From: yorktown5
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Date: 14-Jan-15 |
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Hi GF.
Let me try this from another perspective. I've been down your path, coming to the conclusion that in the end there are so many interrelated factors impacting performance, that when equalized, there is very little difference between bow A and bow B.
You are correct that the subtle differences you have investigated are real, but there are trade offs and as a practical matter, in which dead-in-the-hand stability trumps raw speed-power; practical bow/arrow performance differences are pretty small.
My often cited example is I took a Kodiak Magnum with a typical endless loop dacron string and a 9gpp arrow. The Chrony gave arrow speeds on the high side of 160fps. Swapped for a skinny dacron string increased speed past 170, swapped for my clone of the Rick Barbee design and the bow delivered 180+ fps.
A. That doesn't mean that the 160fps arrow which has been taking game for centuries now magically bounces off a critter. Or. B. That the animals, having read Wall posts, will simply surrender if they now know your arrows are faster.
My point I suppose is that while it is important for you and your confidence to believe in your setup, I stand by my point that the differences are not significant enough to matter (much) AND you can't address bow performance in isolation from a bunch of other little details that impact speed and power.
For a time I chronographed every bow that passed through my little hobby bow repair-refinish business. As apples to apples as I could possibly make the comparisons of bows hunter-tuned for quiet first, fast second, and the SLOWEST bows at 9gpp would hover around 180fps. The fastest? 185fps.
And those results had no correlation between bow brand or cost.
Think that through and you'll realize a couple of brace twists, a few grains of arrow weight, and even arrow nock tension on the string would move the speed results around.
Lets take stacking as one example. Granted defining a stack EXACTLY is difficult. Is a bow stacking when the archer begins to detect some added resistance or is the archer just running out of muscle power and a bow isn't truly stacking until it "hits the wall" as compounders call it?
You are dead on that a smidge of stack is a good thing. While hitting the wall might contribute more to accuracy by providing more consistency, once the limb tips pass about a 90 degree angle with the string, you can keep pulling, but your added effort isn't getting much more tip bend so little more power gets to the arrow. No that can't be quantified since string elasticity is a factor.
Jeez, I'm windy.
But I'm back to my original point. The best power bow for ANYBODY is one that ends up with draw length and max archer strength in alignment. Short draw-long draw, no matter.
You can get there with just draw weight, but as we agree, if there is some beginning stack to provide a bit of feedback when you are anchoring, that's better.
GENERALLY, as others point out, a shorter bow is more likely to begin to sense stack at shorter draws, but this can be mitigated some (long riser-shorter limbs, ILF adjustability, etc.) and there are short bows designed to draw longer or longer bows (such as George's mention of the Howatt Hunter) that begin to "tighten up" sooner than others. Or that d/r longbows on average will usually begin to tighten at shorter draw lengths than a similar length curve.
Once more. Fiddle with ALL this stuff including the other power impacting factors; eliminate individual archer quirks and release differences, tune for sweet spot and bow stability, ideal string, etc. etc.
And when equalized, the speed differences between all bows is only a few fps. Well within the speed zone that can be shifted around with factors as minor as nock tension, a couple of brace twists, a thinner strikeplate, a few grains of arrow weight and even the slickness of the glove or tab being used.
Rick
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From: GF
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Date: 14-Jan-15 |
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Todd – not looking for an argument, just good information. Much more interested in learning exactly what Sixby meant by “perfectly even geometry” than being told “buy yourself a ___________”.
And the bit about real small words was a joke on ME, not Steve. I need a vocabulary lesson just to get started on this stuff…
And I gotta say... Rick just did a heckuva job!
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From: Sixby
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Date: 14-Jan-15 |
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Creation by the bowyer of a working area that bends perfectl;y even from the place it begins to the opposite end . Getting the side tapers and the core tapers right so that you have an even tiller through the working area of the limb and then placing the working area in the right section of the limb to optimize performance. People say this is not rocket science. I say if you want a bow to shoot like a rocket then you have to apply the science to accomplish that. Whether the science is learned by application of experience or taught is irrelevant if the end result is maximum transfer of energy stored in the limb.
God bless, Steve
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From: cleenreelees
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Date: 24-Jan-15 |
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All of these things increase arrow speed. However, like Rick said, each single one doesn't increase speed by much when we're talking about most quality bows from the last 50 odd years.
However, when we combing them...
Long riser
Slightly reflexed riser design
Early draw weight
Proper tiller for your shooting style and your bow
Short working limbs
Laterally stable limbs
Low limb mass
Low brace height
Stiff, highly recurved limb tips
Light, non-stretchy string
Lowered GPP
Carbon instead of aluminum or wood
Low nock/string grippiness
Low fletching height
Proper arrow flight/spine
Reduced contact between arrow and bow
Clean follow through on release with string hand
Reduction of string contact with fingers (ie., thinner glove, thumbring, release aid, etc.)
Pushing toward target with bow hand (not collapsing on release)
And probably more that I can't think off!
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From: cleenreelees
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Date: 25-Jan-15 |
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Of course with many of these SPEED factors we give something up stability/forgiveness, quietness etc.
So one must find their balance...
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From: cleenreelees
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Date: 25-Jan-15 |
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For my money (and my 25 inch lefty draw), I like these:
Saluki Turk (mine's 54" but 52" version would be great maybe even better for short draw)
Drake Hunterflight I WANTWANTWANTWANT! Anyone have one 37-45 lbs they wanna sell? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone...?
Dave Paxton Talon Swift 60" recurve. My friend Dave has passed away but his bows (like the Saluki and Hunterflight) have stiff limb curves, low limb mass and EARLY draw weight.
Good quality Korean bow
For the those seeking more mass and longer risers:
Black widow 3 piece take downs
In 39 years of passion for the recurve bow these are the fastest I've found for my short draw. I know there's a lot out their that I haven't shot.
Peace! CR
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