Ok, I know there will be lots of opinions on this, but here it is. I know there is no set up that will work for every animal, but I want a set up to hunt game up to Elk. Right now I am set up with 585 grain arrows with 29.75% efoc. 350g of this is out front. Carbon arrows. Broadhead is a Tuffhead 225g.single bevel. Bow is a 51# long bow. I have not chrono graphed the speed yet. I understand shot placement is everything. Lets assume that is already considered. I am not looking for the scientific approach. I am looking for personal big game experiance and set up.

All those animals you mention have been killed with wood shafts and stone points. I'm sure that just about any arrow that flies straight and has a sharp point will do the trick.

You're good.

Don't make it difficult, flies straight and sharp and within you range your good.

Art Young did well on Grizzly, Elk, Moose, Deer, etc., with home made heads cut from a saw blade, and mounted on wood arrows. Do you think for an instant that any modern head, on any arrow won't work well?

I can't imagine an Indian, sitting in a beautiful tipi with a crackling fire on a cool fall night, worrying about the weight of a flint arrowhead he is carefully crafting, or where the balance point of the shaft is. The older Indians often complained about the loss of the ancient Indian archery traditions, that the younger braves were unable to pull the magnificent bows of their forefathers, or equal the craftsmanship of their ancestors in arrow making. If you never hunted elk before, you will wish you had a stronger bow when a huge bull is yards away, screaming and ripping brush apart. Haven't you ever wondered why Fred Bear shot a 65 # recurve or why Art Young used an 85 # longbow?

My elk setup is a 440 grain total weight carbon arrow which includes a 145 grain broadhead out of a 55 lb bow. I never had a penetration problem, and the elk never complained about the lightweight before they dropped.

"I know there is no set up that will work for every animal" If you're talking north American game sure there is. Most any hunting setup.

I've killed moose size game and smaller with everything from 53lbs and 130gn heads on 480 gn arrows with low foc up to 82lbs and 160gn heads from 640gn arrows swagged so also with very low foc. I'm sure other weights and arrows will work just as well but that's all I can personally speak for. Any bow in that range with any tuned arrow no matter weight or foc will kill any game in north America and pass thru most of the time.

Oh sorry , the largest for the 53lbs was elk. Fact of the matter is any hunting weight/legal bow with any arrow that's tuned and any foc and broadhead will kill all north American game.

I've had total penetration on every species I've hunted up to and including bull moose (shot clean through him twice) with full length Beman ICS shafts, 20-grain glue-on inserts, and 125-grain Ace Standards. They weigh in right around 500 grains (my moose arrows weighed 499 on my scale) and have an FOC of 13% for those interested in such numbers.

You don;t need a ton of arrow weight or whatever FOC acronym is popular this week to take big game. You need a sharp head on a straight flying arrow shot by a person who can put it where it belongs.

First off, you sound like you have a good arrow set up, I would want some more draw weight if you can handle it.

The target archers are abundant touting there target set ups as good hunting tackle, those who "KNOW", know more is better.

Can I name just a few:

Paul Schafer : 85-95lb bows

Howard Hill : 80-115lb bows

Bill Negley : 100-102lb bows

Bob Swinehart : 75-100lb bows

Fred Bear : 65-75lbs bows

All hunters, not target archers...... that some times hunted whitetail deer out of a tree stand.

Everyone has physical limitations, you are not shooting a hundred arrows, your not stump shooting, your trying to kill a 600-1000lb bull, you might only take a few shots or one.

If a 51# bow with a 585 grain arrow with 29.75 efoc is good, will a 61# bow with a 685 grain arrow be worse? or a 71lb bow with a 785 grain arrow? etc.....

If the goal is to " KILL IT ". Logic, reason and not so common sense, dictate more is better ( I can hear their brains melting down right now ) with in logical reason, OK, feel better now.

I wish I could shoot a 100lb bow with a 1000 grain arrow, that is out of my physical ability, however I can shoot up to around 70lbs and I do. No, I can't shoot a field round with 70lbs, but I can shoot it a few dozen times very accurately.

"WHY I SHOOT THE LONGBOW" by Howard Hill......It must be remembered that the modern glass laminated bows used today are faster than the bow of past years. I have always said and still maintain that no person shoot a bow he cannot draw with ease. Being first of all a hunter, I wanted a bow that would throw a heavy hunting arrow with as little arc as possible. To achieve this end I knew I would have to increase the pounds pull of my bow, and I worked toward this result. I started with a bow that I could pull easily. By practicing constantly and gradually increasing the pull of my bows, I developed, over a period of years, the muscles to pull very heavy bows with no undue strain. For many years I could handle perfectly bows pulling up to 100 pounds at 28 inches, though my favorite weight for hunting was between 80-90 pounds. Few men have ever spent enough time to develop sufficient strength for handling easily such heavy bows as these.

"I have never felt that a hunter is morally qualified to hunt a noble animal if he has not prepared himself to overcome reasonably foreseeable problems."--William Negley

Wojo -

A #50 bow at 10 GPP has been held out as a Gold Standard combination forever, and perhaps even more so because Fred Asbell opined in his first book that a well-designed bow of that draw weight should be able to shoot clean through anything in North America.

And that was before carbons had caught on and before anyone had given a great deal of consideration to FOC or EFOC, and - near as I can figure it, and assuming that your arrow is flying properly - the more mass you put up front, the better your penetration is likely to be. And you've got a LOT.

But even so... Your mileage may vary. Asbell has an above-average draw length, which gives him a significant advantage in extracting FPS/GPP, and he was selling bows at the time... Just sayin'....

Given my draw length, which I just measured at 25.5" (static) from valley of the nock to the contact point on my shelf (directly above the deepest part of the grip) and assuming a 7.5" brace height, a Big Dude is going to have a power stroke that is 25%-30% longer than mine, which translates into a substantially faster arrow...

This will probably draw fire from some folks around here who'll say that I'm not practicing enough, but personally, I don't believe I would be able to get a truly useful Elk-hunting trajectory out of your rig. I think you have penetration more than covered, but if you can shoot the line out to 35 or 40 yards or more but you can't keep 'em in a pie plate past 20 because of the looping arc, you likely have room & reason to lighten up.

Maybe you have a 30" draw length and it's not an issue, but myself... and just making a few assumptions which might or might not have anything to do with you or your bow... I'd be looking for a way to put a little more heat on that.

And if you think about it... A lot of people have killed Elk cleanly with bows in the #40s, using "heavy" arrows in the 10-12 GPP bracket. Call it 450-500 grains. Or you can back off to the #50 & 10 GPP rule o' thumb and either way, there is ample evidence that something a lot closer to 500 grains (all up) will do as fine a job as your shot placement allows.

If you've got fantastic tuning already and you are able to shoot variable ranges often enough to hit whatever you want, then don't change a thing... because you surely don't NEED to. On the other hand... I don't know about Elk hunting in PA other than that there are a few huge bulls wandering around if you can get a tag, but if cutting back to 9-10 GPP were to give you an extra 5 yards of reach, that's something that you might want to have in your hip pocket should the occasion arise...

I almost got roped in to the heavy bow light bow Efoc vs 10gpp debate wtf was I thinking

"I have never felt that a hunter is morally qualified to hunt a noble animal if he has not prepared himself to overcome reasonably foreseeable problems."-- William Negley

Look at the number of Bowmantics that unfortunately don't share the same thoughts as Mr. Bill.

I shot a cow elk at 22 yards quartering away, with a 54# longbow 543 grain wood arrow. The elk only went another 45 to 50 yards before going down.

NVSTICK, sounds like a good hunt to me.

According to Lewis and Clark the Indians shot 6 elk for everyone recovered.

I i would take the footing off, it will drop my total weight to 564g. Which puts me at 11 gpp. Would going from 11.5gpp to 11gpp get me a little flatter trajectory at 25 yards?

No, and that would be going in the wrong direction.imho

Mass in motion....has a tendency to stay in motion.

Why are all dangerous big game hunting loads HEAVY bullets? MASS IN MOTION my friend, it gets the job done.

But... but.....but... it DID kill an elk eventually........ so why change what the Indians had... it worked, might of took a week for it to die... but it worked.

Bullets operate on a different principle than arrows as far as killing goes. But I don't disagree that heavier arrows are important in hunting dangerous game. Of course a lot of that is because dangerous game is usually large, thick skinned or boned and may just as likely charge a hunter as run away. I wouldn't classify elk as dangerous game and, according to folks that have killed a lot of elk, a 10gpp arrow with a good sharp broadhead will work as well as any other combination.

Pass me the big hammer please, you can use that little one.

I like abroadhead that makes a bigger hole better blood trail

x2 Phil.

I doubt most instinctive shooters would notice a difference in trajectory after a couple shots if they changed total arrow weight 100 grains or even more. Your brain and body quickly adjusts to the change. Your set up sounds like it should kill elk any and every day - if you're looking for more speed, increase a few pounds of draw weight rather than cutting arrow weight. Again, you would probably adjust to 5 pounds of draw weight in a couple days of shooting.

I know the earth is flat, cus I walk it all the time.....

If a bow arrow combo will kill a cape buffalo, or an elephant, etc.... will it not kill an elk?

Oh, I forgot, we are trying to fly fish with the lightest tackle we can get by with... the old timers & Indians did it, we should keep going on our 50% kill/ wound ratios.

Time for Forest Gump..... stupid is as stupid does.

That's why I use a .458 Lott for squirrels.

I guess I'll stick with my 11.5gpp. That is what I been shooting for a while.

King - Please don't mock anyone here. Your sarcasm still misses the point. Nobody said to use a marginal arrow on any game. 10gpp with a sharp well-made broadhead will be as lethal as any combination. Nobody said anything about 50% kill/wound ratios using this setup.

Sure an arrow that will kill an elephant will kill an elk. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. Hunt with whatever makes you happy but I don't see anyone questioning you on what to use on big hogs. Please lose the sarcasm and show some respect for what people that have killed a lot of elk have to say on the subject.

"Is it necessary?"

Well...no it isn't. But neither is 10 gpp with a well made broadhead. Sticks and stones killed animals for many years. So if "Is it necessary?" the bar we set for taking game then we're all missing the mark.

My "missing the mark" is just different than other bowmantic "missing the mark". More lethal, however, but still different.

Again, you are confusing "minimal" with "appropriate". 9-11 gpp has a long-proven track record of being effective not marginal. The bar isn't set at what "is necessary". And the context I used "is necessary" was to explain that a super heavy arrow was more than is needed to cleanly, effectively kill an elk - that much weight isn't necessary. I never said only use what is necessary. To a compound shooter that could mean a 7gpp arrow at 290fps. Not what I'm talking about here.

I'd like to quote Augustus McCray from lonesome dove " YOUR IN OVER YOUR HEAD "P"

( Phil; 10gpp with a sharp well-made broadhead will be as lethal as any combination ) um, you would be wrong again sir.

It may come from your lack of hunting experience or your lack of knowledge, whatever the reason, that statement would be 100% incorrect. May I humbly point out your error...... 25lb bow with 250grain arrow and a well made Zewicky 2 blade......( so woman & children can bowhunt Elk ) or a 70lb bow with a 700 grain arrow and same broadhead...............uh-ho

In my world, the 70lb & 700 grain combo will trump the other everyday & twice on sunday........ Maybe in the Internet world where there is no accountability for statements. I could be wrong, but I think I might be right. So my friend, when one makes a statement such as the one you have made, it may lead young hunters and those less informed down the wrong road, perpetuating the miss conception, and adding to such high wound loss ratios.

( Phil; Nobody said to use a marginal arrow on any game.) Yes, you just did, maybe I miss understood you.( I thought 10 gpp was all anyone needs ) see above.

Every study ever conducted by States & Governments have never even reached 65% kill ratios with any bow arrow combo, let alone Trad-bow Kills. You can pretend it's not so, however the FACTS say, average 50% kills for ALL bow & arrow combination PERIOD. Ignorance is not bliss my friend.

Bowhunting Studies

1. In an unpublished report for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, Landwehr, T. J. (1983), surveyed 3,909 Minnesota bowhunters in 1982. The data from this study indicates a wounding rate of 53% in Minnesota. The study goes on to find that at a state-wide level nearly 6,500 Minnesota deer were shot by arrows and never retrieved in 1982.

2. Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Quarterly Progress Report from St. Croix, Jan. 15, 1947, 191 bowhunters killed 24 deer and left 6 carcasses. Wounding rate was 50% (61 shots per kill).

3. Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Quarterly Progress Report from St. Croix, Red lake, Jan, 15, 1948 St. Crox- 293 Bowhunters killed only 3 deer, Red lake- 83 Bowhunters killed one deer and wounded another.

4. Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Quarterly Progress Report from Camp Ripley, Oct. 15, 1954, archers killed 43 deer. A large number of deer were reported as wounded by archers.

5. Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Quarterly Progress Report from Camp Ripley, Jan. 15, 1957, archers killed 96 deer. 30 deer were reported wounded.

6. Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Quarterly Progress Report from Camp Ripley, July 15, 1959, 11,086 archers killed 403 deer, 59.1% wounding rate. In questionnaires bowhunters reported firing 2,550 shots to kill 126 deer (40.9%) and wound 182 (59.1%). An average of 20.2 arrows was fired per kill.

7. Minnesota Department of Natural Resources Summaries of Wildlife Research Findings 1991, edited by Blair Joselyn, Camp Ripley Preliminary Results. 1st Hunt 1,376 hunters: Hunters killed 119 deer. Hunters reported wounding and not retrieving 40 deer. 2nd Hunt deer. 12 reports of wounded deer.

8. A major study in Texas by Boydston, G.A. and Gore, H.G., (1987) collected data from 3,568 hunters over a thirteen year time period. The authors found a wounding rate of over 50% and found that more than 21 shots were needed per kill. The authors state that these numbers are conservative due to the fact that they are based on bowhunter reported surveys. This study concluded that shot placement is for all practical purposes random, that wounds clot quickly leaving poor blood trails, that poorly hit deer, more often than not, are lost, and that almost all abdominally shot deer die a slow death due to peritonitis.

9. A study by Aho, R.W. (1984) for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources indicates that bowhunting results in a 58% wounding rate.

10. Causey, M.K., Kennamer, J.E., Logan, J. and Chapman, J.I., ( 1978 ) indicated that bowhunting in both Alabama and South Carolina results in a 50% wounding rate.

11. In a survey of Georgia bowhunters, Croft, R.L. (1963), found wounding rates over 78%.

12. A study by Downing, R.L., (1972) found crippling rates of 50%. Crippling rate refers to unretrieved mortally wounded deer in Georgia.

13. Garland, L.E., (1972) indicates that bowhunting in Vermont has resulted in a wounding rate of 63%.

AS JOE FRIDAY SAID, 'JUST THE FACTS MAAM, JUST THE FACTS'.

( Phil: Sure an arrow that will kill an elephant will kill an elk. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. ) Are you kidding me......YES it is. I never want to loose an animal because I tried to use the LEAST amount of bow hunting tackle I could get away with..... shame, shame, shame, on those who do. And that includes me, I have hunted with TO LIGHT OF HUNTING TACKLE. I believed the lies I was told, shame, shame, shame, on them, (I'm sure was told to me in ignorance). We now KNOW THERE IS A MORE LETHAL SET UP, whether you want to use it or not, is your choice. However please refrain from TELLING OTHERS IT'S ALL THEY NEED, THEY MAY BE MORE ETHICAL THAN YOU AND DO NOT LIKE A HIGH WOUND RATIO.

( Phil: Hunt with whatever makes you happy ) Are you drunk? With all do respect, That has to be the stupidest statement I have ever heard. 15lbs makes me happy, is that OK...... NO! .....WE ALL SHOULD STRIVE TO HUNT WITH THE MOST LETHAL HUNTING TACKLE WE CAN BE PROFICIENT WITH, PERIOD.

( Phil: but I don't see anyone questioning you on what to use on big hogs. Please feel free, I am all ears, my current set up has evolved over time and will continue. Fortunately, I'm not locked into old wives tales of "shoot whatever feels good to you".

( Phil: King - Please don't mock anyone here.) my sincerest apology, I can be sharp tongued some times when I hear BS, I can some times loose my cool, however unlike you Phil, I called no one out.

OH, by the way Phil, I've killed 10 boat loads of Elk also...... would you like me to post them?

Here's a 1000lb'er to start......... your fun Phil.

Howard Hill and Paul Schafer and a lot of those fella's are always mentioned when these questions come up..not that they shouldn't be, but. Those were exceptional individuals.

Paul Schafer for instance was an athlete of nearly remarkable ability. Not only was a TREMENDOUS archer. he was also one of the best football players (some say the best) to ever play the sport in the state of Montana. He set high school records that may still stand. Paul mostly shot Easton 2219's at his draw length. So...they weren't overly heavy, and had standard FOC.

Howard Hill was also an amazing athlete. He was a gifted golfer, as well being highly skilled at nearly any other sport he attempted. Howard mentions several times about shooting 750gr. arrows out of his bows, so they weren't particularly heavy gpp wise either (around 7-7.5 gpp) . His did have more foc, because he full length tapered them

Bill Negley was also a very athletically fit individual.

Fred Bear if you ever met him was nothing but rawhide and muscle.

Jack Howard killed just about as many record critters as anybody during his day, as well as being a dead on target archer, he shot bows in the 55lb. range and LIGHT by these standard, arrows.

Fred Eichler not too long ago complted the Grand Slam..with a bow in the 55lb. range and standard foc..

Can you use heavy weight bows and arrows and be successful? Absoltely. Do you HAVE to no. And you really shouldn't UNLESS you are willing to (and have to spare) the time and effort that it takes to learn to handle them.

kingwouldbe "I've killed 10 boat loads of Elk" that's kindad' funny cause that would only be about 3 to fill my boat. (Just funning; with ya' by the way)

fdp...I would personally kill just as many and as big of animals killed by eveyone you just mentioned....IF I had the time and opportunities to hunt where they hunted. That is the difference.

'tis true Sapcut, 'tis true...

I did not want this to get all heater up! I basically was wondering if my set up, 589g arrow out of my 51# bow(at my draw) is adequate enough to go on an elk hunt next fall? I can shoot 60#, but I feel real comfortable with my 51#.

Wojo14, This is how some people learn, if it was around a camp fire someone might of got jet-slapped, but that's about it.

Some have said you can kill anything with your set up, and you just might be able to, and still others have said you can improve on your set up if you so choose to.

You have a long time before Elk season, now would be the time to increase your strength and your bow & arrows lethality, it has and can be done, that's all.

Some settle for just good enough, others like to use the .458 lott for squirrels, like Mr.outpostdave, me, I like a bazooka figuratively speaking, there is no such thing as "over kill" in Trad-Bowhunting

Not every shot in the field is a perfect shot, things can and do happen, as Bill Negley has said; you can overcome reasonably foreseeable problems if you prepare your self and your equipment.

PS, the #1 thing you can do, is get in shape for your hunt, IT AIN'T FLAT IN ELK COUNTRY.

King - First off, to question my hunting experience to try to discredit me shows you didn't read what I wrote. Many guys have killed far more elk than you in their lifetime and have written (or said) that an arrow at 10 gpp out of a hunting weight bow will work as well as any combination on elk. According to them, a sharp broadhead and placement of the arrow are much more important than having a heavy arrow over 10gpp. If I'm looking for opinions I can trust I'm looking to folks like Larry Hatfield, Jack Howard and others like that that have killed a lot of game, lost very little if any over their hunting careers (Jack Howard never lost an animal he shot, not sure about Larry) and are more interested in sharing their vast experience than pushing their ego in an attempt to make others feel small. Folks like Larry are also very humble about their accomplishments and you won't find them on any internet forum flashing photos and bragging about their kills.

You keep twisting what I and others said when you say "I never want to loose an animal because I tried to use the LEAST amount of bow hunting tackle I could get away with." Where has anyone on this thread said any bowhunter should use the "least"? Certainly not me. Of course 700 gr and 70# will trump 250 and 25#. That's a ridiculous statement because nobody proposes using a 25# bow for elk.

I'm familiar with studies on wounding rates. Based on folks I've shot with during 3-D shoots I may even be surprised if the wounding rate is only 50%. But that has almost nothing to do with them not using heavy equipment. It has to do with their accuracy ( which may explain why the wounding rate isn't higher - they miss more often than wound). Please don't try to tell me that if everyone shot 70# the wounding rate would go down.

And I cannot let this one go because it is so ludicrous - " ( Phil: Hunt with whatever makes you happy ) Are you drunk? With all do respect, That has to be the stupidest statement I have ever heard. 15lbs makes me happy, is that OK...... NO! .....WE ALL SHOULD STRIVE TO HUNT WITH THE MOST LETHAL HUNTING TACKLE WE CAN BE PROFICIENT WITH, PERIOD."

I guess I have to say everything very concisely and precisely to prevent you from twisting it into something else. Of course we all should strive to hunt with the most lethal bowhunting tackle we can be proficient with. That goes without saying (except to someone who wants to try to discredit me). And I'm happy hunting with the bow weight and arrow combination that I am most proficient with as I'm sure you and countless others are. For me it's not 70# and that doesn't make me drunk or stupid.

King, so your elk set up is 70# and a 700g arrow? What is your white tail set up, or do you use the same set up?

Dang boys...."traditional" archery's turning into rocket surgery!!!

I'm a wee bit sceered to voice an opinion on this one. Hmmmm....used to apply the KISS system coaching youth hockey; keep-it-simple-stupid.

So if I'm reading this correctly...54lbs @ 29"....405 gr cedar shaft with a 2 blade zwickey delta...I best stay outa the woods...eh?

Think I'll stick with the KISS and wait for a shot that allows me to place a shavin' sharp 2 blade thru the boiler room....same as I did back when my shoulder allowed me to shoot 70lbs.

Just sayin'.....

Phil,

"According to them, a sharp broadhead and placement of the arrow are much more important than having a heavy arrow over 10gpp."

Very, very well said.

Even more important is a heavier arrow and indestructible sharp broadhead with the same good shot placement.

Ever think of that?

yep....

Actually Sapcut I thought about it and discounted it. A heavier arrow offers some benefits - it may quiet the bow. It may help penetration on large, thick skinned or boned game. But on deer and elk once you get complete penetration, how much more overkill do you need? And, as far as an indestructible broadhead - as long as it's sharp it's no better or worse than a number of heads on the market today. On deer and elk-sized game, placement and a sturdy, sharp broadhead are the important factors.

One other thing I was thinking about last night - my son loves rock climbing, sea kayaking, hiking...he's kayaked from Seattle to Skagway Alaska, climbed in South America a few times, spent four weeks this year climbing in Yosemite. When he tells folks about his trips many will say they can do that and they'd like to but... There's always a but, not to mention the fact that saying you can do it is a lot easier than hanging on a multi-day climb a few hundred feet up in the air.

So when I read your comment that you could kill as many big game animals as the other hunters mentioned I immediately thought of all those folks that say to my son I could do that...but. It's all about choices. My son is willing to make that his priority. He buys cars from Craig's list. He works but only to support his climbing. He makes sacrifices that most people aren't willing to make so he can go places and climb. Just as those other hunters did to kill the animals they did. Forgetting the fact that many of them were better hunters than most, they adjusted their lifestyle to do what they did. It's easy to have Walter Mitty-like dreams that we could do anything if we had access, had friends, has more time, more money...It's completely another to actually do it.

I'm not saying that in a judgmental way because we all live our lives the way we think best. And, for many, the priorities are way different than for others. But hearing you say you could kill all those animals that others kill just rings hollow with me. They have actually proven they could do it.

That's a good point about your son Phil, and the sacrifices that he makes to pursue his passions.

I remember years ago when Chuck Adams was trying to make it big (I know some here don't care for him) the sacrifices that he made to do the things he did were pretty major.

Phil, like I said...IF...I hunted where those mentioned hunted and had a TV show like some do I would kill exactly what they kill if not more. And I would do it with a heavier arrow than what is only necessary for a perfect shot.

And if wishes were horses beggars would ride...

If doesn't count. And making that claim either diminishes the accomplishments of those that have done it or makes it appear that you are bragging about your hunting ability. Neither of those is becoming of you.

You have no idea what you would or wouldn't have done. You only see the result, not the process. Sometimes your posts make you seem as though you are a fairly young hunter with lots of thoughts but not so much knowledge.

That's correct...it doesn't count because I haven't done what they have done. The point I'm making is having access to the hunting places those mentioned with TV shows, products, etc., I will kill the same deer, as would soooo many others on this very site. Having the best areas to hunt has lots to do with the successful kills and one doesn't have to "hunt" near as hard to score. That is not hard to figure out.

On the other hand, those same movie stars will not make youtube videos or movies in the urban areas that I hunt. And BTW...I didn't bring this up because I envy those mentioned or "wish" in any way to hunt where they hunt. (I have recently turned down whitetail hunts to great hunting areas in Nebraska and Indiana.) I hunt exactly like I like it. Very challenging and lots of deer "hunting". And never have paid a dime to do it.

In that same thought line...the place I hunt is a place I LIKE. Sooooo...deer populations are low for a few years, hopefully make a comeback. I hunt with my grown son, same as me with my father, and niether of us has shot does the last 3 years and will not in the foreseeable future.

That said, the woods we hunt are home. Just being there is good for the soul.

Rick, well said.

Maybe I need to clarify what I was thinking about earlier in this thread…

#1- A heavier arrow is always better… Right up until it isn't. A useful trajectory is often… Useful.

So, to keep it simple…

If you tend to shoot right down the line, but miss high and low, you need either a heavier bow or a lighter arrow.

If you can't group at all, you need a lighter bow. And probably some good coaching.

But a heavier bow is only going to be faster if you maintain the same arrow mass, or at least go lower on your GPP. Not that GPP matters for its own sake, but it's much handier to measure.

Personally, I would have to be an idiot to shoot a 10 GPP arrow out of a 70 pound bow. Mass is mass. Velocity is velocity. Both matter, and both are attributes of the arrow; the draw weight of the bow which launches that arrow at that velocity is an afterthought.

We all have our limitations. Some are limited by the amount of weight they can pull; some are limited in terms of discretionary funds for buying and fiddling around with bows of different weights until they figure out what is the heaviest that they can go; some are limited in terms of how much time they have to practice their shooting; some are limited as to what ranges they can shoot when they do practice. EVERYBODY has limitations, and the only thing that really matters is that we know what they are and stay within them.

Now you'll have to make the decision if you'll drive the Land Rover Sapcut.... Or the Land Cruiser.!.

8-)

On a serious note, I agree... We'd all kill some fine animals if we had the extra $$, time of work and the access to good hunting spots. For me though, I'll always shoot the heaviest bow/ arrow combo.

Oh there isn't a doubt that I would drive the Land Cruiser or LX. And if I drove it to the destinations that Bill Jordan with Realtree hunts or Toxey Haas with Mossy Oak hunts or to the areas the Wensels hunt I would have significant advantages....Just exactly the way they do. Why do you think they go there? Regardless of how good a hunter they are, the dirt they hunt on has everything to do with it. And a great hunter is not a prerequisite to kill great bucks in those type areas.

10 gr arrow is meaningless. I remember getting on here and reading that people were shooting 10 grain, and being surprised that they were saying all this stuff about 10 that used to be said about 8. Then you realize they are shooting twinkie bows. My 7 arrow was heavier than their ten.

Same with FOC. That is supposed to be a number that is good for FITA shooters, or others shooting really long distances, who want to max their performance for looping trajectories. The correct FOC is supposed to allow the arrow to streamline better with the arc it is shot through. Irrelevant for super fast bows, and irrelevant for short ranges. It may be the case that terminal performance of bows is better if a lot, or even almost all of the arrow weight is in the head, but that has nothing to do with balance point, trajectory, etc... It just nice to shoot 300g heads if you can.

Probably 99% of people who are shooting 50-60 lbs bows are overbowed. The main way to know you aren't is if you regularly shoot 3D or some other event with actually recorded scores, and your scores indicate you are always in the kill zone on targets, with your heavier bow. It is harder to believe stuff like stump shooting because it is so easy to remember only the good shots without some kind of audited scoring.

I think the main thing shooters overlook when considering their field arrows is quality of construction. I hate RPS with a passion, I prefer integral parts. Glued on heads, and one piece shafts nock to head. Of course RPS works as do a lot of not so fabulous systems, I just prefer an arrow that is more like a combat knife, than a Swiss army knife with too many moving parts.

GF - what do you mean about the comment of being an idiot to shoot a 10 gpp arrow from a 70 pound bow? A 700 grain arrow shoots great out of a 70 pound bow - and doesn't stop very easily.

In my limited experience, over the years I shot about 80 deer (and other big game) with various arrows from 80+ pound compounds shooting arrows typically weighting about 600 grains including 125 - 150 grain broadheads. When I switched to traditional bows about 12 years ago, I was shooting about 65 pounds with about the same or slightly lighter arrows and broadheads, and shot about 25 deer with that setup (as well as other big game. About 8 years ago I started increasing broadhead weight and have killed another 25 deer or so, currently shooting about 700 grain total weight, with about 250 up front. These arrows out penetrate anything I've shot, they are much more stable in flight -not easily deflected by wind or slight contact with grass, brush, etc. From my actual kill experiences I wouldn't go back to light front weight arrows, and all I can base this on in my field experiences.

Just my experience for what little it's worth.

I pray you all have a Christmas filled with the blessings of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ!

Supertramp's 1974 album "Crime of the Century".

Dreammmmmer, you know you are a dreamer, Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no I said, "Dreammmmmmmer, you're nothing but a dreammmmmmer" Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no, I said "Far out, what a day, a year, a laugh it is" You know, well you know you had it comin' to you, Now there's not a lot I can do, Dreammmmmmmer, you stupid little dreamer.

( phil: (Jack Howard never lost an animal he shot, not sure about Larry) I think your hallucinating my friend....lol smiling. Easy now, we don't want to put you on suicide watch.

Where do you come up with this stuff...... do you really think for 1 millionth of a second that statement is real? So, you’re trying to convince us you know what you’re talking about and you make a HIGHLY UNPROBAL statement to convince the world. Help me Jesus.

Let me help you out son...... HE SAID, HE NEVER LOST ONE HE HIT WITH HIS RAZOR 3 BLADE, including ones hit in the lower leg .......

BAGGING OLD TANGER by Jack Howard ..........I have always relied on my razor blade broadhead to kill, even on a poor hit. I had been attaching razor blades to my long, lean, three blade heads for years and trusted them fully even on marginal hits. I have hit game in the lower leg and they have died in a short period from excessive bleeding. With this in mind, I shot 3 or 4 more arrows at my moving target. I have always had trouble with moving targets. Even at close range. This would be anything but close range shooting…One last arrow, one last chance! In a few more steps, the buck of my dreams with a wound from my arrow would be totally out of range and into thick brush and with that very possibly out of my life forever.……..

Jack is not here, so we can't ask him to clarify, however again with logic & reason, one might surmise with a 50 year bow hunting career, at one time Mr. Howard was a beginner........ a new hunter, with ZERO experience, yet according to your mind blowing statement he was an expert from the start........ never making a bad shot as a beginner new-be, only success from the start.

Also a bow hunter that admitting he would take LONG SHOTS AT MOVING game, shooting ALL of his arrows and admitting to having trouble shooting at moving game even at close range, let alone his admitting shooting ALL his arrow at a moving buck at long range.

I'm not picking on you Phil just trying to help you understand, we can’t just make things up, and post it on the internet for young bowhunters and beginners to read, because they can't separate fact from fiction.

I'm sure your hero could do no wrong, I'm sure you believe he's ten feet tall and built proof, I'm sure you believe he never lost an animal he shot, I’m also sure you believe he is the only person on earth to prove Newtons law was wrong………that MASS & INERTA do not excites.

By the way Colorado’s minimum Bow weight for hunting Elk is 35lbs so, let’s assume per your other quite, 350 grain arrow from a 35lb bow is all that is needed…… stop the world and let me off.

Amen

King,

I'm from Minnesota where the Camp Ripley "study" you posted took place. I think this one study kind of throws the whole would- ration for bowhunting out of whack from reality and I'll tell you why..

If you have ever been to Camp Ripley you know the main reason guys hunt there is to take a big buck. You don't get to pre- scout and you only get two days...less if you consider the time it takes you to get through the gate, up to your hunting spot, and settled in. You compete with 1,999 other bowhunters for a shot at what probably will be a running/trotting deer (due to all the people bumping them around) and I like I mentioned the main draw is the trophy potential. I can't prove it, but my theory is there is a lot of unspoken competition to bring a deer to the check-in station, hopefully a whopper if a guy is lucky, and as such I believe many guys take shots that are marginal with the hopes of connecting...shots they might not take in the privacy of their own farm or hunting area without all the competition. That is what pushes the wound ratio up under that "study". I've hunted with a recurve and some compound for close to 40 years and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you I can count between the fingers on one hand the number of animals I've lost in that time. I have a lot of bowhunting buddies that can make similar claims and we aren't liars or the world's best shooters. I'd take the Ripley study with a grain of salt, and unfortunately there's not many other such studies to cite so it's this one that seems to paint all bowhunters with the same wide brush. Don't be fooled.

wound ratio, not would-ration in that first sentence. Sorry.

Hi south Farm, we could easily through out that study, but there are 12 others saying the same thing.

As far as wounding and reporting or remembering, I see that peoples memories get real foggy trying to remember animals they shot and did not recover.

Just my 2 cents.

Ok, thanks King, although I've never been called "foggy" before..

I'll leave this thread to the experts.

LOL.... not you per say, just an observation.

Luckily I didn't call you froggy....lol

Slayer, back at-cha, I pray you all have a Christmas filled with the blessings of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ! ,

Give a little bit....

There's so much that we need to share So send a smile and show that you care

See the man with the lonely eyes

Take his hand, you'll be surprised

Give a little bit

So what does all this mean? Can we hunt elephant with a 41# bow and 300 gr arrows or not?

Robert, Absolutely NOT!!

That arrow must be 410 grains. You know...10gpp? Helloooo??

Well Heck, I'm not going elephant hunting then, I'll just take my 41#'s and 300gr and stay home because I don't think I can work up to 45 or dare I say 50#'s, just joking, really just kidding, However on a serious note, a heavy bow and heavy arrow are the winning ticket, sure lighter bows and lighter arrows will work when everything is perfect but stuff happens, I think heaver is better. It's really hard to argue that point, of course a man needs to be able to handle the weight and capable of shooting it well.

This kinda reminds me of my "Is 20lbs enough for cape buffalo" thread. Shame guys have to be content to stick with fads and what's easiest. But its even more of a shame guys can't let people shoot what they want n be happy for them instead of showing how childish they can be. I started with 53lbs at 13 years old but have always shot heavy weight (73-82lbs) since my second bow when I was a teen but even I know lower "hunting" weights work fine on most game cept maybe large hogs. Because of health problems and maybe a bit of laziness I now shoot only 62lbs but the animals still fall as quickly as ever. I'd like to say its been interesting but it really hasn't,lol.

Merry Christmas folks and God bless!!!!

Merry Christmas And may Gods light shine upon you all, God bless.

"...a heavy bow and heavy arrow are the winning ticket, sure lighter bows and lighter arrows will work when everything is perfect but stuff happens, I think heaver is better. It's really hard to argue that point,.."

Oh no...apparently it isn't hard to argue that point at all. You would be amazed at what some come up with, extremely biased, but they do come up with arguments.

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