From: 4nolz@work
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Everyone seems to despise the lowly coyote.If we werent "competing/dealing" with them I think you have to have a grudging respect for them.They adapt and thrive-when prey populations are high their reproductive rates are high and vice versa when low they are low.I personally dont put much credence into predation on livestock-I am sure they scavenge dying/dead calves but doubt they truely impact livestock (I do not deny they do occasionally take advantage of weak/sick/dying).Its amazing to me they can find a dead deer overnight before we can get back to recover-they even beat buzzards to the kill often here in Florida.Not really a question but an observation.Will I shoot one? Of course.
|
|
From: dire wolf
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Yep..they are pretty adaptive, smart..and fun to listen to at night when the younger ones get on the trail of dinner..
Here ( urban area with farmlands) they may take a cat..or smaller dog..and certainly roadkill..
Saw one the other morning first light with a dead cat in it mouth..Heading for a secluded spot for breakfast..
They are NOT good to eat in my opinion..:0
I've called & hunted them with bow, rifle over the years..tanned-sold the pelts.. I don't think they are much of a threat to healthy livestock..including sheep and smaller goats..Jim
|
|
From: Robertfishes
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
the coyotes are pretty smart and resourceful here in North central Florida. I have heard stories of coyotes grabbing a new born calf as it is being born. A few weeks ago One of the guys at work saw a fawn by itself on our 7/10 mile long driveway around 10am, it was dead by 2pm only the head, feet and hide were left..the next morning only the spine pieces were left on ground. There was a couple of stray dogs seen at our complex one day.. The plant operator saw them being chased by coyotes in one of the fields..they caught one dog and had it eaten in minutes.. I called one in with a grunt call once, it saw me and took off.I haven't lost any game to coyotes, but a bear got a small hog from me once..and a couple of hogs ate the guts out of a deer as I was tracking it..
|
|
From: Ghostinthemachine
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
When they first showed up in this part of MN I thought it was pretty cool.
Since then I've learned to really dislike them. They've decimated the fox population, pheasants, ducks, rabbits, deer fawns and many other species have been hit hard. There are just too many and hardly anyone traps anymore, which is the only way to really hammer them.
I've witnessed the carnage over the last 35 years or so since they showed up. But, they ain't going anywhere, so might as well learn to live with them.
|
|
From: George D. Stout
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Around here we have lots of Coyotes (Eastern Coywolf). They are much larger than their western cousins yet still tend to look for easy meals, mostly mice, chipmunks and other easier to catch morsels. The farm down the road had no problems with their sheep, but the coyotes did kill several very young goats a few years ago. They also like chicken (just like we do) and will help themselves if they get a chance. Some farmers around here will put Llama out with their lifestock...or mules/donkeys, and they seem to be a big deterrent.
As odd as some people think, we are getting more and healthier fawns around these parts in spite of having a lot of coyotes and bears. Seems nature understands balance better than most humans. The most dangers carnivore around here for deer predation is the automobile.
|
|
From: bugslinger
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Some folks have obviously never had the opportunity to watch 2 or 3 coyotes attack a calf as its being born. It does happen quite frequently and do impact a ranchers bottom line.
|
|
From: Selden Slider
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
I just cannot bring myself to killing one. I mean, with all the trouble they have dealing with the Acme Bomb Company and that darn Road Runner, killing one is like the last nail in the coffin???? Frank
|
|
From: 4nolz@work
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Bugslinger have you witnessed it firsthand?
|
|
From: N. Y. Yankee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
One of my fondest memories of deer hunting is the time a nice male coyote came ambling along the trail I walked in on sniffing all the way. I had thought it was a deer coming in so i had my gun up and ready. About the time I saw the critter, he saw me and spun to face me. I put the front sight on his chest and pulled the trigger. the 12 ga slug exited the rear quarters and the dog flipped over backward and was dead when it hit the ground. The only good Coyote is a dead one. Sorry, I have no respect for them.
|
|
From: Traxx
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
I cant speak for Bugslinger,but i have witnessed the attempt of it by coyotes.That is to say,until i put a stop to it.
|
|
From: 4nolz@work
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
I did some searching online-it seems there are alot of different opinions-many are based on geographical location(as most things are).
I was raised in Iowa around cow/calf operations and generally they were regarded as afterbirth eaters.So it may be different where you live.
this is a cut and paste from a livestock forum-intresting.
We're in North Central Nebraska, in the heart of the Sandhills(look it up on a map and see how isolated we are) and we calve out about 900 or so head of cows every spring. Our family's been on the same place since the 1880's...I, and my granddad before me, have been avid coyote hunters for fur, so we've been around and seen alot of coyotes and their doings...One thing rings true above all the rest below- you never know WHAT'S gonna happen when it comes to a coyote! I've never personally witnessed it, but I've heard of 'em pulling a half-born calf out of a cow...I'd believe that if possibly the cow couldn't get up and had been down a long time...
Like mentioned- a good cow will NOT let a coyote anywhere near a calf...newborn or not! Those that've seen coyotes eating a newborn calf, I'd bet good money the cow had a dead calf and eventually gave up and went to eat- then the coyotes moved in(that's how they make their living). For the guy who had the cow come back to where the calf was and raise cain in the area where he'd been eaten...that cow smelled BOTH coyote and calf...I regularly have them do that with just where a dead calf was that I'd picked up earlier before the cow got back.
I only know about coyotes around here...these "eastern coyotes as big as german shepards" don't exist around here. But one things for sure, there's never been a "pack of coyotes" that has killed a critter in these parts....a coyote, around here, is a solitary animal...you may see two together at times, but that's cause they're mating. A "Pack" of coyotes, at least around here, means there's dog blood in there, and, at least in these parts, we just don't see them in packs. Ever. It may sound like one at night, sure, but that's just pups talking to each other about what a pleasant evening they're having.
All in all, to answer the op's question, no, out of 40+ years of calving out 600-1000 head of momma cows each spring(and some in the fall way back when), I've never seen a coyote kill a calf. I know it's occasionally happened to a weak or abandoned calf and have seen the results of that, but the good healthy ones...nope.
|
|
From: Jim B
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Here are the remains of 26 coyote kills,mostly adult antelope but a couple yearling mulies as well.They were taken from Dec 1 through mid-April in the field in the back ground.These are adult,healthy animals,not during hunting season,no deep snow and no highways.
The above article contains some misinformation.Coyotes at certain times of the year travel in family groups of 5 or more and they hunt in concert.Most fresh antelope and deer kills I've found have been cleaned up by morning.That probably takes app. 4 coyotes.
|
|
From: N. Y. Yankee
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Im in western central NY and we hear packs of coyotes all the time, especially at night. Its not too hard to see parts of fawns laying around in open areas. For some reason they like grassy areas. Maybe because they can see danger coming. I have seen calf kills when I was younger on the farm. We believed they were born at night in the pasture and the coyotes heard the cow struggling and moved in. Maybe. We have many pets come up missing and never ever be seen again. Too many have vanished to just be a roaming dog or cat. Eventually many will come back. Those are blamed on the coyote population too.
|
|
From: coxral
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Grew up in Oregon hunting and trapping yotes. My Grandpa raised cattle and sheep, yotes can and will put a hurt on both herds!Also, as one stated earlier, they will go after new born calves. Had Brother working on a cattle ranch in South-Central OR and witnessed it a few times. Once, when I lived in Lapine, Or a small pack lured my neighbors poodle away and almost got it. First mistake-not enough of 'em (only about 3), Second mistake, King, a very large, knarly, and protective Shepard! He killed 1 yote!
|
|
From: 4nolz@work
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Jim B-thats not an article -just a cut and paste of a ranchers opinion fwiw.
there are obviously geographical differences but I do think "alot" of what gets posted is repeated and not firsthand-if you repeat what you hear long enough you believe it.
not "all"-"alot".I dont doubt anyone here's firsthand experience.Pieces of fawns and calves really doesnt prove anything other than scavenging.
BTW I dont "love" coyotes but I do admire their adaptability.Of course I'd shoot one.
|
|
From: Grey Fox
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
First day of bow season I shot a doe at about 20 yards. I waited an hour to recover. She had traveled less than 30 yards but I barely beat a coyote to her. Last year two came to my grunt call. I have had them come to turkey call. Sometimes they put my 3 dogs right at my back door and challenge me from the dark. They like my chickens.
|
|
From: Stinkbait1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
For the 3rd year in a row, we've been seeing does with no fawns; or if they have a fawn, they only have 1. The habitat on our land is good. Lots of natural browse for the deer to eat during the spring and we had good rains this year. We are coming off a drought and that may have something to do with it. But, our ponds have never gone dry and we haven't have any evidence of EHD or anything like that. We have a LOT of bucks (a good thing) so its not a question of the does not getting bred. We've come to the conclusion its the coyotes eating newborn fawns. I do respect the coyote for their adaptability and intelligence. Smart critters, no doubt.
|
|
From: George D. Stout
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Lots of mitigating factors can cause a low fawn count, but the predators get most of the blame. Back here, black bears get a lot of blame for fawn kills too. On our farm, there are several bears that either live there or frequent the area on a regular basis. We also have lots of the Eastern Coyotes and yet we still have good fawn production this year.
As nolz said, regional areas can and probably will be different depending on what other foods are available. Talk about biology, nature doesn't allow predators to kill everything, otherwise they would die themselves. There is always a balance, maybe with ups and downs like everything else, but balance prevails. And no, I haven't hugged a coyote lately. You can respect them without loving or hating them. Small minds can't figure that out.
|
|
From: 4nolz@work
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
The Florida bear biologists tell us when a particular bear learns "the knack" for finding young fawns they can take up to 60% of a crop on a property.(of course bears are protected here)
|
|
From: BC173
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
In the end, of all the predators,scavengers, a coyote will be the last one standing.
|
|
From: Kevin Dill
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
The photo is from video taken 4 hours ago on my farm. I could have killed these two easily with my rifle, but I could see no reason. I like coyotes and coexist with them out here every single day. There are more than enough deer around here (too many when I can see a dozen skin-heads out my window) and I welcome the coyote to help himself to venison if he's able. I have yet to see a coyote (or group of them) pursue any adult deer here on my farm, and that's after living here, hunting here and photographing wildlife here for well over 30 years. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen the evidence here.
|
|
From: Tom McCool
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
In the last 20 years we watched the deer numbers go down and the coyote numbers go up on the mountains behind our house. We have witnessed first hand coyotes attack and kill deer. No guessing; we have seen them kill fawns and mature deer alike with our own eyes.
I do not get angry about it. I accept that it is nature taking its course. I look on the up side. I not only enjoy hunting deer, bear and turkey on the mountain. I am having a blast hunting and trapping them coyotes now too. :)
I only speak of me and my little part of the world. No way would make little of anyone who is having a real problem with them.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Kinda makes me wonder how many fawns get eaten by feral hogs….
Anyway…. what I know about coyotes…
Normally solitary outside of breeding pairs, BUT where large, defensible food sources are available – think Roadkills – they will frequently pack-up, which probably amounts to the pups staying on with mom & pop because there’s more food to go around when there are more sets of teeth available to drive off the pack next door.
The stereotype is that western coyotes run small and eastern ones run bigger. I’ve seen a few WHOPPERS out East – as well as some quite good sized ones in CO – but I’ve also seen one or two here in the East that were classically small-statured. Dunno… maybe I was seeing pups on those occasions? Didn’t look like it, but you don’t get much of a look at an animal crossing the road at night…
And I keep hearing that eastern coyotes have wolf blood in them, but I’ve never seen any published references on that supposition.. Not saying they haven’t been done, but I’d love to read up on the question if anybody has a reference…
One of my favorite college profs came across a deer kill in northern MN (this would be over 25 years ago), and he was able to determine that several coyotes had rushed a deer as it traveled along the shore of a frozen lake. Once they got it out onto the ice, it was pretty much a done deal.
Olaus Murie wrote of seeing coyotes running relays to wear down deer; I’ve never seen that happen, but I did follow some tracks out in CO where it was plain as pee that several canids had been chasing a mule deer. They had several stand-offs along the way where there were scads of tracks as well as clumps of hair scattered around and some blood sprinkled on the snow. Always find myself wishing I’d had time to follow that trail to the end… all of the sign was really fresh, and it would have been interesting to find out if the deer had escaped or, if not, how it was taken down. And of course it would have been REAL interesting to find out where the dog tracks led to after the chase, because I had the sense that if these were coyote tracks…. these were some very sizable coyotes.
I don’t really harbor any ill will toward them, and I do admire their toughness and their adaptability… but I will confess to wanting a few furs for making quivers and what-not as projects. So I have no real reservations about taking them, provided I can do it cleanly, because of all the animals we’re allowed to take, these are the ones I’m LEAST worried about running out of.
But you won’t catch me eating any...
|
|
From: CMF_3
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
I shoot Coyotes on sight for the hell of it. At my current residence their are tons of coyote and tons of whitetail. A pack of coyotes caught an 80 lb yearling doe 60 yards from my house in December...after chasing a half dozen of them away I thoroughly examined the prints in the snow and determined the deer was not limping/injured, just got cornered against the 6 ft high pig wire.
On the other hand, I have watched at least a dozen fawns grow up this year eating from the apple trees in the yard. In spite of the numerous coyotes there are probably more deer than there should be at my place. Where I am the 'yotes do not put too much of a dent in the deer population.
I grew up working on a 14,000 acre farm/ranch in Alabama. Coyotes are bigger there and extremely abundant in spite of our efforts to shoot them all. Our cows would drop over 1,000 calves every year and we NEVER lost a calf to anything other than sickness. I don't buy the Coyote eating calf narrative at all.
|
|
From: WV Mountaineer
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Just like us, some coyotes are better hunters and opportunists than others. So, their impact is regional to where they live. And those impacts, (habits) are taught and relearned.
They are opportunists. They kill things to live. If you can't defend yourself, you'll soon become dinner. I respect their wit, tenacity, and ability to thrive where others fail. I personally know of farmers who have suffered losses of sheep and young calves to them, while a farmer 5 miles in any direction never seems to have those problems. It wasn't a guess to what was killing them either as some of the guilty were killed during the act. In all cases, those killing stopped once the adult yotes were killed. So, it is a conditioned response. They do as they are shown by the male and female.
I've personally witnessed them in packs hunting deer. I know that was what they were doing as I killed the deer ahead of them too. I respect them but will not hesitate to go to great lengths to ensure they do the same for me. God Bless
|
|
From: Carolinabob on iphon
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
I have always like Edward Abbey's comment on coyotes. "The problem isn't that coyotes eat sheep. the problem is that they don't eat enough sheep." And before anyone gets their panties in a wad he was talking about sheep on BLM lands.
|
|
From: dire wolf
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Like Justin ( WEV Mountaineer) said abover, their diet and habits vary tremendously depending on where they live..
They are survivors..and predators-scavengers..
I suspect that livestock losses are minimal..and mostly limited to the weak, sick or stoopid critters..
More livestock is lost from disease, bad weather, poor food than any of the predators combined..Jim
|
|
From: dire wolf
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
However..I still will arrow them and tube skin them and tan their pelts IF they get close enuf..:)Jim
|
|
From: GLF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Coyotes are heck on lambs. One guy here lost 80 percent of his lamb crop one year. Its the sheep guys that pay me to hunt em. But yeah they're very adaptable. At one time they were hunted, chased by sight hounds, poisoned, and trapped. A northern coyote pelt was 80-120 bucks back when the military used the fur so a lot of guys went after em. But they still thrived and widened their range to include every state now.
|
|
From: MStyles
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
What selden slider meant when he said "no respect".
|
|
From: limbwalker
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 21-Oct-14 |
|
Whenever a predator thread comes up, I wonder how all the game animals ever made it to modern times. LOL.
|
|
From: Jake
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
Nieghbor had a doe run into there yard with fawn hanging half out and 2 yotes chasing with more back in the woods. Neither survived. coyotes stayed around for some time. Shot a doe in evening hunt, went to retrieve in morn, coyotes were on her and spooked off but before I got to her [50 yds] they came back and stood there ground, 3 total 2 sat down and one was woofing and flickindg his back legs lookin at me, they dragged what was left over the hill, don't trust them and have a little surprise if they stand there ground again!!!!
|
|
From: Stinkbait1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
Last year during our late December "doe only" hunt here in Oklahoma I was set up in a ground blind. I had 2 does working their way towards me and all of a sudden a coyote appears out of nowhere and takes off after the does. They run about 100 yards and another coyote joins the chase. I was not happy. I know the coyotes are just doing what they are programmed to do. I respect them and their abilities. But, I don't like them. Our rancher wants us to shoot them on sight along with any dogs we see. Rancher tells us he looses calves to coyotes every year, this year was no exception. Who are we to argue with the Rancher? He is out there amongst his cattle every day and sees what goes on. We have great deer habitat on this property and should be seeing does with twin fawns every year. There is plenty of food, water and cover on the property so that is not the issue. The last few years we have quit seeing very many fawns. It could be some other cause, but when multiple hunters are seeing multiple coyotes in the day time and hearing them howl throughout the day, then I think we have a coyote issue on our property. The feral dogs are another problem. We've seen them running deer on the property many times. We all carry pistols for dog medicine. Dogs typically have no fear of man. When they get in a pack, then things can get interesting.
|
|
From: larryhatfield
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
i have ran cattle on range land for all my life. my calf mortality from coyotes is a total of 0. i never leave a sick calf on the range or leave a dead one for the coyotes to eat. i have lost calves to "family" dogs more than once. i know every coyote on my range land and i kill transient ones trying to establish a range for themselves. have one old timer that breeds two females that thinks it's his job to lead the cows to salt when i am driving them up the hills to a lick i put out. there isn't a coyote in the state that would even try to face down one of my range cows. an injured coyote is generally a dead coyote. can't hunt, you starve.
|
|
From: dire wolf
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
Larry, Good post from one who knows.. I've wrangled cattle in Arizona, New Mexico and was raised on a large farm where we had cattle..
Even giving birth..cattle will watch and stand guard over the new mother and calf..
Calf is stillborn and left?..THEN the predators will be on it..Jim
|
|
From: limbwalker
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
Great post Larry.
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
Makes me curious about the coyotes’ impact on the fawn crop in most of the country vs. in those areas where their numbers are suppressed by a healthy wolf population…
Fawns are an ephemeral food source, so with a well-synchronized rut and a smaller number of large predators with big home ranges, it’s easy pickings... in a few spots… for a very short period of time. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
But where coyotes are literally Top Dog, you have more predators per square mile, so a higher percentage of fawns can be found & eaten. And where the rut drags on and on, there are vulnerable fawns around for an extended period, making more of them susceptible to predation…
So in a sense, where the deer herd is over-large and suffering from a skewed sex ratio, coyotes are probably a state’s best hope for restoring a LOT of things to balance… Not that we 2-leggers will necessarily appreciate the “help”…
As for the half-born calves thing… It’s easy to imagine a half-a-dozen coyotes harassing an isolated cow in the middle of a difficult birth. How’s she going to protect her back side? Easy to imagine… But hard for my rational mind to allow my imagination to disagree with Larry & Jim’s collective experience….
|
|
From: 4nolz@work
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
thanks for some great posts and keeping it civil! It appears there are obvious geographical differences.I do not consider them to be of any real impact on deer or livestock in Florida.
|
|
From: Smithhammer
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
I think coyotes are pretty cool. Never had much interest in shooting one, nor frankly, in shooting anything I don't plan to eat.
As far as lamenting the role that predators have always played in a healthy ecosystem, I'll take that any day over a hyper-managed, sanitized game farm.
And I'll stay away from the whole issue of running livestock on public lands, and then expecting taxpayer funded programs to rid those lands of all predators in order to make it safe for private livestock herds... but suffice to say that not every calf or lamb that is reported as a "wolf" or "coyote" kill is accurate. Not even close.
I don't need to be the only predator in the woods.
|
|
From: buster v davenport
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
NY state did a study on coyotes in 2009 and the results can be found at www.esf.edu/coyote. They put GPS collars on several coyotes and found that their home ranges averaged 12 square miles and their daily movements reaching 15 miles.
In the mid to late '60s I lived and hunted on a farm owned by the grandparents of one of the researchers, Robin Holevinski. At that period of time there were a lot of so called 'wild' dogs in the area killing sheep and running deer. One day while I was hunting in 1965, dogs run 6 sheep to death in less than a 100 yard stretch. The owners of the sheep killed one of the dogs involved. They also advised us that their was a $5 bounty on any dogs running sheep. I later talked to the local game wardens about it and they said that they had tracked several of the 'wild' dogs back to the farms that they lived on.
I also saw an albino deer on the day the 6 sheep were killed.
|
|
From: bugslinger
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
4 nolz - yes I have
|
|
From: GF
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
I guess maybe that with an animal as adaptable as the coyote, it’s a dead end to say categorically that they WILL or WILL NOT do …. Just about ANYTHING.
One thing I have noticed, however, is that they seem more apt to mind their manners around humans and livestock in areas where they’re routinely shot at, just because they stood still long enough for somebody to do it…
|
|
From: Catskills
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
Coyote in Arizona have a couple tactics for domestic dogs: They will either send a female to lure them, or a young coyote to "play" with them, while the pack waits in ambush.
I saw both of these things when I lived in Arizona.
|
|
From: Traxx
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Date: 22-Oct-14 |
|
Had coyotes try that with my stockdog,while i was raking hay.He was chasing the mice as i turned it over.I looked over n saw a coyote standing not 20 yrds from him,trying to get my dog to chase it.yelled at the coyote and it trotted off.As it neared the edge of the field where the grass was tall,i see a few sets of ears stickin up.
|
|
If you have already registered, please sign in now
For new registrations Click Here
|
|
|