The thread on distances for shots in a Trad 3D event brought out a chorus of the usual “I don’t keep score… I’m just out there for fun” type of responses, but that always gets me to thinking….

If you don’t keep score, how the heck do you know if you’re getting any BETTER? How do you even know (for real) whether you’re even having a good or bad DAY??

And without an objective standard, how do you know if you’re any good to begin with? And I don’t mean for chest-thumping purposes, but geeez… Maybe there’s no real harm in settling for “average”, but if you have no clue what that even IS….?

It’s kinda like this… I’ve got a gauge in the car that shows me what my MPG is moment-to-moment, relative to my average since I last re-set the trip. And there’s a graph showing me how I’ve been doing over time during the current trip. And between the two of them, it keeps me keenly aware of whether I can expect myself to be doing better than I’m doing “right now”, and that keeps me working to raise my average. And guess what – it keeps getting better, for the most part.

So consider this a request for help: Please turn in your scorecard at every shoot. You can do it anonymously if you prefer; but for the benefit of the other guys who want a bit of a reality check, could you at least help them to know where they stand in the grand scheme of things?

Because honestly, I don’t think anybody is going to quit out of frustration, but if they ARE going to, at least they can quit before they go out and wound any animals. Or maybe it will be the push they need to get some coaching so that they can really have a breakthrough and get GOOD. If you don’t want to know where you fit in the overall standings, fine. Don’t look at the scoreboard. But at least provide the hard, cold feedback to organizers and the shooters who want it.

What say ye?

I shot my first 3D shoot ever with a recurve on Sunday (9/14). I did not keep score, and I did not even write down my score and here is why......

This was a new (to me) recurve that I have only been shooting about two weeks. out of 40 targets I probaly hit 30 of them, maybe less. I only had about 10 "Scoring" shots and I lost 5 arrows (the course was really rocky and hilly.....if you miss high your arrow is gone). At my skill level with the recurve, it would not have given anyone an indication of the difficulty of the course.

That being said, I am planning on practicing with said recurve, and going to another 3D shoot in two weeks. I plan on scoring and submitting a scorecard, because I plan on having enough improvement to warrant filling out a card and turning it in. I also agree with you that if you are out there shooting, you should be HONESTLY scoring yourself to see if you get better. I knew guys who golfed, and gavec themselves "Mulligans". I thought they should score honestly so they could see if they were improving or not....same idea applys here.

By the way, my wife calls 3D shoots "like a golf course for archers"

I don't keep score but where I shoot you it's open seven days a week and you can shoot anytime. When I shoot the shop is usually closed and I'm the only one on the course. You just drop your money in a drop box and shoot. If I'm shooting at a organized shoot I do.turn in a score card. The only time ive ever shot at a shoot that you kept score was the IBO Trad. Worlds. As far as getting better I try to have a 80 percent kill rate or 16 kills out of 20 shots taken at hunting distances. I'm shooting primitive so I'm not to interested in long range shooting. If I take my recurve out I like to take longer shots. I agree with you if your going to a organized shoot than keep score.

I am gonna say I am a little confused. Are you wanting people to keep score for their own benifit and measurement, or keep score for the organizers/other shooters benifit, or both? Regards, Don

I say ye need to do what you think is best for you. I don't have to keep score to know how I do. If I can hit a pine cone at forty yards, I'm thinking I'm okay with the bow. If I can shoot over 400 on a field round, where shots are from 20 feet to 80 yards, I think I'm okay to go hunting with my bow. Some of us cut our I-teeth on field and target rounds and know what we can do without writing down a number.

Some folks learn just as much by not keeping score, and can easily tell if they are shooting better than in the past...and matter of factly shoot better when not concerned with a score. So I think it bugs those who do keep score that we don't. That makes no sense to me. Maybe you do need to keep score to know if you are good enough to hunt. Not everyone does, and not everyone uses 3D for a benchmark for their accuracy. It's just a game...like touch football. Do what makes you better.

If I kept score it woldnt tell you anything, first off I don't take shots that I don't take on live game! {setting my own pins so to speak} and I don't realy pay to much attention to wear the manufacture says the kill is because you don't want to hit the marked kill provided on the target on a 1/4 away shot witch is what I strive for! so to answer your ? about how do you know how your doing? If I hit what I want I am doing just fine!!! REB

I've ALWAYS kept score at a shoot...just to see how I'm doing! Not necessarily to win anything. Though I did shoot competitively for over 20 yrs. what I saw at shoots, was guys not filling out a scorecard and turning it in,so they could keep shooting all weekend without paying for each round!

if they are all kill shoots that's a good day wounds or lost arrows bad day. if I don't miss and no wounds I am happy.

But if a guy did not keep score and just shot for fun but ended the day with all 10s I bet he would tell someone what score he would have had.

Why is it so important to some of you guys. Do you just detest having fun, or do you really think folks are so pathetic that they can't hit a 20 yard deer target. Either way, it's none of your business if someone wants to shoot for fun or not. They pay, they play.....you tend to the next one who wants to pay.

And tabbender, why doesn't your profile come up when you click on your name? It would lend credibility to someone telling us what we should do.

I do keep score. Having said that, I think the world would be a much better place if "folks would stay the HELL out of everybody else's lives"! Unless you are invited in, that's a different story. Speck

What if people are less than honest,about the scores they post?

What if a person keeps score by how many kill shots,vrs wounds or misses.

If a person really needs to have a reality check,then take the highest possible score for the course and compare yours to it.

George. I really don't think l have ever told anyone what they should do. Please correct me if l am wrong. Or don't.

I do keep score to see how good I am doing over all for myself. At our 2day shoot at the club I belong to, Saturday of the shoot the way I shot I felt like I didn't even show up, so I didn't add my score. My buddy did, it surprised me what he told me I shot a 151 out of a 330 I didn't think I shot even that well, thought I shot only about a 100, Sunday I shot a 225. Point being keeping score will let you know how well you did shoot and how your shooting skills are improving. The buddy that added the score, the only bragging rights we use is who beat who that week. If he is keeping score and I beat him I really get to rub it in. The first time I took first place in our Tradition class at our club, I took the trophy. It sat around collected dust, so I donated it back to one of the guys who puts on the kid shoots at our club, to hand out to the kids. We now have a option at our club, trophy or shoot pass. If I place I will take the shoot pass(the cost of shooting for a day) Trophies just take up space and don't mean anything to me. DANNY

We had a post like this a year or so ago where some of the shooters were disappointed that some of us didn't keep score. This year I made an effort to keep score and to my surprise, I won several buckles and I'm kind of proud of my shooting. That being said, I still prefer to not keep score unless I'm just shooting against one of my friends.

I don't keep score because I just have no interest. I just shoot for hunting practice and fun. I don't always shoot from the stakes either so any serious score people are not interested in my score either. :) I will move off the stakes just a little to suit my shot. Maybe to sneak it between a tree branch or kneel or sit on the ground.

I know a guy that takes his little stool to all the 3D shoots and uses it on every target because that's the way he hunts.

I know if I am shooting bad on a day. Don't need to see it on paper too. LOL.

Since our little group doesn't shoot from the trad stakes a lot of the time we tend not to keep score. Sometimes we all keep score depending on how we feel. We always have a good time and enjoy each other company whether we keep score or not. If I hit every animal and come home with all of my arrows I had a good day.

A couple of weeks ago four of us shot a NFAA 14 animal/14 hunter. I was high man and was surprised because two of them usually beat me on a 3-D course.

I usually "keep score" when practicing and I usually break the 100 point barrier. My set-up is this six flights of six arrows @ a 20 or 25 yd. target F.I.T.A. 60cm scoring 5,4,3,2,1 perfect score per flight = 30 30 X 6= 180 While I know that I have a lot of room for improvement I usually score somewhere between 105 and 125... At this time I'm shooting for 130 over all.

Scores tend to be meaningless when some folks use different scoring standards. When this 3d business started, targets were set up to take advantage of foliage and terrain. The stake was set to provide a meaningful hunting shot. Sometimes over a knoll or between trees or with a trunk almost over the kill spot. Now people step to the side for uninterrupted shots, or even remove brush from the line of shot. Then the rings- touch or break, or close enough? Makes it hard to compete with different applied standards. Mulligans? Never take them as most big game animals are not waiting. Odd, there are people who win a lot when shooting with their select group, but when stricter rule followers get paired, thier scores drop 25 or so points. That is not my observation, but others. Briefed rules need to be followed by all to maintain the integrity of the shoot. I will admit to being a rule follower with little regard for those who can't or won't. Just me. 3d was originally meant to replicate actual hunting situations, and it was fun to thread arrows between limbs and just over rocky outcrops

It doesn't make any difference to me, it all depends on who I'm shooting with. At one of our shoots myself and my friends Tom and Joe were shooting together, Joe was pulling the arrows, on one of the targets, I shot a 10, as we were walking up to the target Joe pulled the arrows and called mine a 5, Tom did shoot a five as did Joe. I didn't say anything, thinking it was me and not Joe who was mistaken. On the next target I shot another 10 and Tom an 8, Joe shot another 5, when Joe was pulling the arrows this time, Tom was rite behind him, he (JOE) called my shot an 8, Toms' shot a 5, and called his own shot an 8, Tom called him on it, Joe made some lame excuse. Needless to say Tom and I kept a very close eye on Joe from that point on. To make a long story shot I try not to shoot with Joe anymore. I only tell this story now to honor Joe, he is now the president of our bow club, how bout that.

Big Dog (Don M) - Both, really.

It’s one thing to feel like I’m having a good day, and another thing to total up the scores and discover that I wasn’t so On as I thought all the way around. Or vice-versa. Point is, I guess, that we humans have an uncanny ability to remember what we choose to remember, as we choose to remember it. The whole point of scorekeeping systems is to have that objective, external standard.

So when I was a regular member of a club that has a full course, I always kept a card as that reality check. Obviously nobody to turn them in to, but that wasn’t the point then. The Point was to have a record. For myself.

And for George D….. At the risk of sounding like a cop-out…. You, sir, are not the target audience for this one…. :D

Anyone with years of competitive shooting under his belt probably has a pretty good sense of where he stands in the overall scheme of things. My concern is more with those who maybe converted from compound more recently and may or may not have realistic expectations for barebow accuracy.

Or… Having shot my way around a 3D course more times than most will ever have the chance to, and having kept score much of the time, I can tell you that with a sample size of ONE, I am a dead-average shooter. Utterly meaningless. With a scorecard, I can tell if I actually did or didn’t have a Good Day, and I can tell, over time, if my average has been trending up or down. But there’s no context.

By the way… Does anybody know where to go to see a bunch of scores from the Trad class at one of the big 3D shoots? I’ve searched around some, looking for an average 3D score and all I can find so far is rules, rules and more rules….

tabbender, "But if a guy did not keep score and just shot for fun but ended the day with all 10s I bet he would tell someone what score he would have had."

I saw an innuendo in that, so if you didn't mean it as that than I apologize to you.

Stikbow

Good post

When I shoot with compounders who have just converted to Traditonal or those who are planning on it and want to know what a good score is on a 30 target 3D coarse (center ring as 11's) 330 as a perfect score. I tell them that if they can consistantly shoot a 240 (which to a compound shooter is a low score) they are in the top 20% of Trad shooters. That is mix of shooting at ground hog, bobcat type targets to buffalo size all at the same shoot. That is every arrow placed in the kill zone (or acutually touching the line, not it's close enough). If they get some 10's and 11's thrown in so much the better. DANNY

No need to keep score on a 3d range when you're just out to have fun, at the end of the round I know which shots I wouldn't have taken on live game, also know how many arrows left in my quiver and who in the group shot better than me. I think if you shoot with a group who uses the same equipment and have roughly the same skill level keeeping score is great and it might make you shoot even better (or worse) The same applies to golf, if I take my 81 year old father in law out for a round I throw the score card in the garbage can, I told myself years ago it will be a sad day when I can beat him, that doesn't mean I don't know how many pars or birds I got, keep it fun and compete with yourself and you'll have a better day. Den

George, No ill intent on my part. Just saying what I would proberly do. I thought I made a funny post.

Elitist Bowhunter ... Do you? Apologies but not sure what your point is ......

No!

But I will quit going to the shoots.

Happy now?

some of us keep score but we don't except trophies.

Does anyone shoot as if the 3d target were a live animal? In which case, you might not be aiming for the highest scoring ring (can't see it, anyway, unless you use optics.) That's the problem with keeping score and why the guys I usually shoot with don't do it.

Target makers could add alternative scoring rings based on real anatomy but instead place them in the center of mass of the replacement vital. So shooting 3d for score is just a different game, that's all it is.

And another point: we don't shoot AGAINST each other, we shoot WITH each other. The guy who makes the best "kill" shot on a particular target gets to call the stake for the next one. Kinda like playing "horse" in a basketball shoot around.

I shoot 3D matches for fun, but also for hunting practice and as Backcountry mentioned, the scoring rings are not necessarily true kill zones on animals.

Years ago I started "scoring" as my brother scores 3D shoots - K, W, or M - Kill, Wound or Miss and it's,at least so far at this age, easy to remember, or write it down if you prefer, K, W, M for 28 targets.

My big complaint is that, with very few exceptions, the shoots are set up for the wheelie folks and most of those shots are beyond the range I would shoot at a live animal. Not that longer range practice isn't worthwhile, but I would never fling an arrow at some of the ranges of these targets. Just my opinion. Terry

I shot a 40 target 3-D round with friends last Sunday. I did not keep score but knew if my shots were on my spot or not. I would say I shot about average for me, nothing great, but I was pleased with myself. I didn't miss any targets, that was cool. I remember when I first started, it was nothing to lose or break 4 or 5 arrows on a 30 target course.

If nothing else, I reinforced my self imposed limits on shooting distance. I didn't need a score card to tell me that.

Some folks like to keep score to check their progress. That's fine. Some just want a trophy. I guess that's fine too.

One thing I've noticed when a group keeps score, someone will be very happy at the end, and someone will be very sad.

GF, "You can do it anonymously if you prefer" = Great suggestion!

I keep score and turn in my card, because I take my skill as an archer seriously. In competition I shoot at targets with very little serious consequences. Ranges are designed to minimize the possibility of an accident from an errant arrow. As a hunter, I owe it to the game to make a clean kill shot. The level of commitment to accuracy in both situations should be the same, because I want to be a good archer.

As someone who has done many course set-ups, I appreciate knowing what was too easy or too hard. No scorecards = no meaningful feedback. Yes you will get the nice course, hard course, long course....yadda,yadda,yadda....coments, but, scores are hard data you can analyze and evaluate.

And, over the years, I've heard numerous shooters beg off by saying they weren't good enough to compete. I translate that to, I'm embarrased my score is so low. I've aways felt that a low score motivated me to do better next time. Maybe I can come up with a valid reason for scoring low, and thereby, learn something of value to me.

You know, a few years back, there was a cat here, everyone remembers him, his name started with One. Anyways he bashed Compton's shoot because they did not keep score, get this, they actually shot for FUN. Wow, what a novel idea. I mean, who came up with that??? Most people, if not all, can tell how they are shooting without a little pencil and card. If you wanna, go and do it,but dictating is what it dictating is. A person knows full well how they are doing. Unless they are having too much fun. And if thats the case, well then, looks like they hit bulls eyes all through the course.

I keep score most all of the time,it's how I judge my progress an such.

People that don't, more power to them.

Jack.

I used to enjoy shooting 3D. I have not shot in years. I think the people that like 3D the most are the archery shop ad equipment company owners. I like my backyard target, first shooters, and bowhunting. Besides, if I started 3D shooting again, I know what would happen. I hate stabilizers on a bow. I think that should be a class. No stabilizers.

First off I should just mention that I don't think there are any 3D shoots any closer to me than 3 hours away. I don't have time for that. Secondly, I just simply keep score one arrow at a time. When I shoot I need to be in the moment to shoot well. I don't want the "thought of" the arrow I just shot or the arrow I will shoot in my head.

What George Stout said... exactly.

Bitten: That cat is over on Traditional Archery Society now and is still bashing the same thing.

Amazing those who think 3D is an anatomy lesson. It is an exercise in picking a spot on a target at an unknown distance and seeing how close you can come to hitting it.

Then might as well save the money of those 3d's and shoot at a bale of hay...which I often do.

Yep, if I just want to practice hitting what I'm aiming at, I wouldn't need a 3 dimensional animal target. The only reason I have for shooting a 3d animal target is to remain an effective hunter.... which includes proper placement of my arrow in relation to shot angle and the animal's body position. It doesn't hurt to practice that aspect of hunting with an arrow too. I don't care where the scoring rings are or if they even exist.

It wouldn't do anyone any good for me to turn in a score. If I score myself at all its a simple scoring system. 5 for body 10 for kill. I don't do inner kills since they have nothing to do with hunting and were merely put in by ibo to break ties in compound/ release classes. I really have a problem calling ibo a bowhunting org since they have nothing at all to do with bowhunting. They've done nothing since their start but kill the local bowhunting shoots and then turn theirs more and more into target shoots. Sorry , got off subject. But anyhow no I don't intend to turn in a score because someone wants to compare our shooting. I do whats fun and relaxing for me. If you wanna compare skills shoot with me.

Like Jeffer I also don't have any 3d ranges in the area so I have my own ten target range which I shoot from wherever I decide, If I shoot with friends, the one who shot best on the last target will choose where we shoot from next, this results in different angle but realistic shots which you can't really score by using the manufacturers rings so we just count the kills, great practice and very enjoyable. I always thought it was wrong to be allowed to take five points for a hit out of the vitals anyways, a clean miss is a gift,you should get five points for that instead, on a broadside shot a hit anywhere out of the actual kill zone is a worse than a miss by far so the scoring system is flawed, I always wondered why a score card rewards me with five points for wounding a foam animal, LOL , just the way I feel. Den

Who places 30 different hay bales in the woods? I don't get to hunt many alligators, 2 foot frogs, 18 inch bears, dinosaurs, lions, or any of the other targets comprising 75% or more of the targets on a typical 3D. Where exactly is the kill on a T rex?

FWIW, there are two questions in play here…

One is WHETHER we keep score, and the other is HOW.

And I won’t back down from thinking that it’s a shame that more folks don’t turn in an honest scorecard whether they have their name on it or not, because as Wild Bill said, how are the shoot organizers going to know if the course is too hard or too easy or custom-made for Goldilocks herself?? And if nobody knows, then what does your score mean?

So anyway, that’s the re-cap on why I think we’d all benefit from consistent and accurate reporting of scores…

And on a more practical note…

I’ve always treated 3D as hunting practice, so I have a simplified system for when it’s just me rambling through a course, which is that I ignore scoring rings completely and rely on my biology/anatomy/physiology background instead.

I just look at where the arrow went in and where it would come out if it were to go clear through, and then figure out what organs I would have hit and how long the animal could reasonably be expected to stay on its feet. Then I give myself 10 points if I think the animal would be down inside of 30 seconds, and 5 if it could take up to a minute. Zero for a clean miss and subtract 10 for anything else – such as getting one lung and a chunk o’ liver, or some pretty solid bone…

But even taking that approach, I find it very useful to keep an accurate record….

Nothing wrong with competition. I know the liberals would like for us all to get an A for attending, but in the real world competition is part of life. Granted archery is all about fun, but some friendly competition should make you better.

Sometimes I keep score and sometimes I don't. I know in my own mind if I am shooting good or not. For the most part I think that I can hold my own on a 3D course. I try to help my girlfriend while we are shooting with her form and follow through. She is really becoming a good little longbow shooter and we are having a lot of fun together. Jim :)

Our club hosted the Traditional Bowhunters of MD last Sunday and we set the targets with fun and hunting in mind. Lots of angled shots, lots of behind trees, shooting through Vs, behind logs, etc. Ranges were typical hunting. We didn't pass out scorecards and everyone shot the course two or three times during the day. NOT ONE COMPLAINT! On the angled animals we shot for real vital hits and commented on who had the best hit for a quick kill.

Redog - where they all deer targets?

OK, so with Reddogge's post in mind...

At a "Fun" shoot or one that's intended to put the last few strokes on the hunting form... Or even at a "regular" shoot...

How about this: Instead of each SHOOTER carrying a scorecard, what if each TARGET had a scorecard posted next to it where everyone would report their score to provide a record of how many 0s, 5s, 8, or 10s were scored on that shot during the course of the day?

And for those who want to know how they came in overall, they can keep their own cards and get not just their total score, but a shot-for-shot comparison...

This way, those who want their score can have it; those who want to know how they did in comparison to the crowd that day can know how they stack up, and the guys setting the course will know which specific shots/targets were too hard and which too easy.

Any complaints on THAT????

SteveBNY, no we had pigs, javelinas, big cats, sheep, bears too.

GF, It's been my experience those who want to keep score carry their own paper and pencil and do so. For this group, no one cared about score, just fun.

GF,

"How about this: Instead of each SHOOTER carrying a scorecard, what if each TARGET had a scorecard posted next to it where everyone would report their score to provide a record of how many 0s, 5s, 8, or 10s were scored on that shot during the course of the day?

And for those who want to know how they came in overall, they can keep their own cards and get not just their total score, but a shot-for-shot comparison... "

Another excellent idea. I will be bringing this up at the next club meeting.

To all those who don't turn in your cards, why are you hiding your ability. If keeping score deprives you of having fun, why is that? You are handling a weapon and,IMHO, should be accountable to those who let you do it on their property.

I too shoot my 3Ds as if it's a hunting situation. If I want to play games and keep scores. I would've taken up bowling or golf.

Bittn x2. God Bless

Sooooo many ashamed of how they can shoot, so many

If not, the simple answer is " I dont score cause I dont want to.

When you tack on all the "reasons" its pure bs cover up.

Shame shame shame

Lol I've been quite successful on many different species of large game and also was very successful at 3d when it first started, don't assume because a person doesn't wanna play " I can beat you" games that he or she can't shoot well. Maybe alot of em can beat you,lol. You know what they say about when you assume. maybe where you live archery shoots are new enough you can't imagine why someone isn't into it, but here they're old stuff and most aren't.

Glf, been doing this silly stuff for over 40 yrs. Never said play I can beat you, just want some back up to prove up.

While there are a few, very very few, who fit your description, there are many more that fit mine.

I never assume anything, but rely on "Show up, post up, or shut up"

I keep score just to see where I stand and if I'm getting better. My club has a 30 target course that I can shoot anytime. I always keep score everytime I shoot it. I challenge myself to beat my own records. I use to shoot with a guy that did'nt want his score kept. The few times that I talked him into keeping he got nervous and shot poorly.

Yeah I know there are some. I was at a shoot a year or two ago and had a guy tell me he had a 31" draw when he saw how long mine was. He ask my bow weight then said his was 56@31. We talked a bit then went shooting. His 31" arrow was only drawn about half. I spent the rest of the day wondering what his draw weight was at 16".

After 48 years I don't think I'm gonna get any better, but if I start to get worse maybe I will score.

But GLF, no one will know if you get any worse, unless you score ??

But GLF, no one will know if you get any worse, unless you score ??

Bob, I have to omit that if I shot better, there's a chance that I would keep score more often. Don't know. LOL

Hey, Bill - let me know when your next shoot is... maybe I can come up. I haven't shot a lot since I had to let go of my club membership, and hardly at all since Sandy... Though I did finally work out a way to shoot at the new digs. Trouble is, right now I can only get to about 40 feet...

Gordon, I know better than that :)

I'm having trouble imagining a convincing reason to score my arrows at a 3d shoot. One would have to do a lot better than what's been said here so far.

I like keeping score....Give the guys a break those who have target panic. Archery is no fun at all when you have that and you don't wanna keep score. I've been there.

I keep score when shooting 3d, my standard for myself is to maintain an 8 point per target score. My goal is to average 9 points per target. That being said, on some targets a low 5 is a much better hunting shot than a high 8. Do you guys agree?

Bryan, Yes. That's why I don't keep score. Most 3d targets reward shots that hit center of mass which would probably be fatal hits on live game...but not necessarily the best killing shot.

3d is a game that appeals to competitive people who like to keep score. It appeals to shooters with the ability to shoot very precisely, such as compound shooters testing their ability to hit a dime-sized point, and it doesn't matter where on the animal target that point is They want to know exactly where the scoring rings are, so the real serious ones often use binos to check and double check where those rings are. They might even be shooting for a sponsor, or for money.

I don't think I've ever seen a trad guy using binos at a 3d shoot to see where the rings are. But I seen compound shooters get real nervous if they are in a group of trad shooters who make them shoot first--they don't like getting their expensive lighted nocks hit!

Jeff - how else will you know when you are ready to hunt dinosaurs? ;^)

"If you don’t keep score, how the heck do you know if you’re getting any BETTER? How do you even know (for real) whether you’re even having a good or bad DAY??"

I didn't read all the responses so sorry if it was covered.

I go to 3D shoots to have a good time,meet new folks and mainly "to shoot bows I don't normally have access too."

I'm not very competitive but do like to know how I compare. I've personally never kept score(on paper)but have had guys that I was paired with keep score for me...3 times that I can remember. Placed at the bottom once and in the middle the other two times. I don't shoot well with a crowd watching,mental thing I guess.

When I shoot I shoot like it was real and aim where I'd want to hit that animal in a real hunting situation...that is not where the 10 ring is at on a lot of targets.

So I would never score well even if I was having a good day. I'm happy with the fact when I make a shot I can say to myself that's a good kill shot....or that sucked wounded animal.

3D shoots to me is hunting practice and a social event. Could care less what others thing about where I placed,what I shoot,how I shoot or my form.

Always appreciate advice from those who offer it though.

Mike-- Yep to everything you said. You get it.

Our group uses a 3d shoot as a fun way to shoot our bows. We haven't kept score in many years. We rarely shoot from the trad stakes anyhow. We'll move back, maybe closer, if it's safe, shoot through some narrow lanes. We rotate picking the next shot. Our scores would mean nothing to anyone except our group, and we don't care (maybe one guy, sometimes).

In our group, two guys don't hunt at all, one hasn't hunted archery yet, one hunts with a compound 95% of the time, and two of us use trad bows to hunt with. Occasionally, another trad guy or two will show up, but I guess it would be rare to get 10 trads at one of our local shoots.

I really don't understand why SOME guys that keep score want to look down their noses at the guys that don't. I don't see anybody trying to talk them out of scoring if they want to. We all have different motivations, interests, and reasons to shoot our bows how we want.

Shoot your bow the way that gives you the most satisfaction, and let others do the same.

Think most of the bellyachin and looking down is in the other direction. Those that dont keep score toward those that do.

Anyway, the first are the loudest about it just from looking at the posts.

Anyway to each his own, BUT, to those that say they cant hit a foam or paper target but if you put furr on it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you'd still miss

I enjoy competition of some sort. I think it's fun and it assists me in maintaining some focus and concentration. Some don't like it (competition) and that's cool as well.

I subscribe to the 'shoot your own shoot' philosophy where one, in general, can do as they please.

"I don't think I've ever seen a trad guy using binos at a 3d shoot to see where the rings are."

Then come and watch me at our next shoot.

You instinctive guys always claim to pick a spot and hit it, well, that's 3D archery.

rpk@woqk,

"We rarely shoot from the trad stakes anyhow. We'll move back, maybe closer, if it's safe, shoot through some narrow lanes."

Unless you have someone in the group that knows the course/property, you could be putting another shooter at risk. Most clubs work hard to provide a safe shooting lane. If you position yourself outside that designated lane, you could put a hurt on someone. I know you said,"if it's safe", and I'm sure you mean that, however, the club assumes everyone follows the course as laid out. Like Mom said," it's fun 'till somebody gets hurt.

I admit I did get an anatomy lesson on kills at one shoot a few years ago. Shot with a guy that didn't keep score because he aimed for "real" kills and not the rings. By days end I learned the kill was in the antlers ears, hooves(front and rear) and even at the base of the tail. ;^)

"I really don't understand why SOME guys that keep score want to look down their noses at the guys that don't."

I don't think they 'want' to necessarily... more like they simply can't help it. Control issues. Egos in need. Misdirected competitive ambition?... whatever. But it begs the question... Why would someone want to compete with those who have no want or need to reciprocate? Strange.

Have fun and score em if ya want. Ain't nobody here suggesting you do otherwise... but return the curiously please.

I have yet to see a "non score keeper" cheat.

I've seen some very creative scoring done at competitive shoots. The prizes were hand painted stones and feathers, really nice. I guess the nicer the prize, the wider the score ring gets.

I lump cheaters right up there with poachers.

Red, The most creative shotmaking I have ever seen is non scorers after a beer or two, no way to prove them wrong.

Dufus statement that has nothing to do with the discussion on this thread

Wild Bill,

You make a good point about the safety aspect, and I agree. I'd say 95% of our 3d shoots are done at two local clubs that people in our group has been member of, and shot the courses for many years. We also start shooting early, with the clubs blessings. I'm talking about taking two or three steps off the beaten path.

On the rare occasions we do make it to a different course, we do stay on the shooting lanes, but won't always shoot from the trad stake.

Graysquirrel,

I guess we are reading this thread differently. Mostly, both sides are giving the reasons they do what they do, at least early in the thread. I haven't seen anybody state that the act of scoring is bad in any way (I may have missed something). I do see guys lashing out after being told that the reason they don't like keeping score is that they are "embarrassed" or "ashamed" of what their score might be.

In some cases that may be true, in some cases, absolutely not. In any case, what's it matter?

In my opinion a lot of the ten rings or perfect kills on a target are not in the exact spots where I would shoot a deer or pick a spot so keeping score in my mind serves no purpose other than being competitive. If you practice enough you certainly know when your having a good day, bad day or what your potential is.

"Why would someone want to compete with those who have no want or need to reciprocate? "

"I do see guys lashing out after being told that the reason they don't like keeping score is that they are "embarrassed" or "ashamed" of what their score might be. In some cases that may be true, in some cases, absolutely not. In any case, what's it matter?"

Well, as the OP on this one.... This isn't - or at least was never intended to be - about competition. It's about DATA. And it MATTERS because there is only one way to get the data, and that is to gather it from people who for various reasons seem to be vehemently opposed to sharing it.

I keep score on myself so that I can tell if my technique is improving or not, or so that I can get a feel for how much my form has suffered after a lay-off. But without any clue as to how anybody else might do under the same conditions.....

So while I know that perfection is not attainable, I don't have a great sense of just how good a "good" bowhunter/archer can really be. If I go to a course and whiff on one of the longer shots, is that because only a small percentage of shooters can hit (reliably) at that range, or is it just that I'm really not that good and I should really practice more, get some coaching, or (of course) both...? And if I go to a course I've never shot before and score higher or lower than I usualy do, is it because I had a good/bad day, or is it just that this course was easier or harder than most? There is a reason why there is no world record time in a ski race, and that is because no two courses are EVER the same. The only way to know how you stack up in the talent pool is to clock yourself.... and EVERYBODY else.

Now... I TOTALLY understand that a lot of guys aren't too interested in how they shoot from the Trad Stake on a course set by someone else, because the stakes are (mostly) set back a bit longer than we would ever seriously consider shooting at an animal. Full respect for their desire to get close and to practice on shots they would actually be willing to take.

I ALSO know that the official scoring rings often don't reflect proper shot placement, even when the target is oriented as intended by the manufacturer.

And of course if we all take the shots WE are comfortable with and score them as WE see fit, the data are worse than useless.

So here's the problem. I want information that can only be had if the other shooters on a course will A) take the shot as called by the course setters and B)leave a record of their score - Good, Bad, or Indifferent.

And here's my modest proposal as a solution...

AS A PUBLIC SERVICE TO THE DATA-MONGERING NINNIES SUCH AS MYSELF, would it be too much to ask the non-score-keeping members of the community to simply TAKE THE FREAKING SHOT AS CALLED and jot down their most honest scoring of the hit IN ADDITION TO taking whatever shot they feel is the proper, never-to-be-scored challenge for themselves?? All we're asking is that you shoot a little more and provide some anonymous data points. We know you don't care, but humor us.

And, as a Card-Carrying member of the Score-Keeping Ninny Society, I solemnly swear to conceal my scores from them if that is their wish...

"AS A PUBLIC SERVICE TO THE DATA-MONGERING NINNIES SUCH AS MYSELF, would it be too much to ask the non-score-keeping members of the community to simply TAKE THE FREAKING SHOT AS CALLED and jot down their most honest scoring of the hit IN ADDITION TO taking whatever shot they feel is the proper, never-to-be-scored challenge for themselves?? All we're asking is that you shoot a little more and provide some anonymous data points. We know you don't care, but humor us."

I would do that if asked to.

I shoot wit some friends who are like me who keep score and do their best to win, it is a competition thing. I also have a group of friends that never keep score. I enjoy shooting with both groups. I have to admit that I have more fun shooting with the group who does not keep score. There is more screwing around and joking with that group. But when shooting without keeping score my concentration level is lower because I know the shot does not really count for anything. I shoot my best when I am competing and keeping score, but have more fun when not keeping score. I can enjoy the day whichever group I shoot with for the simple reason that I am shooting my bow, not sitting home watching commercials. As R.K. once said, "Why can't we all just get along?"

One by one, Mike!

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