How about traditional only hunting season or areas? 99.8% of the "bowhunters" around are compound hunters - like shooting a gun in my opinion. Connecticut last year had more bow kills than with firearms.

Add in there a season where you can't hunt from trees - bring the challenge of hunting back.

I wouldn't say they are like shooting a gun. I'd say that about a crossbow though. I don't think states would make areas like that due to the money they would lose.

No

If there was a season set aside just for REAL archery....my guess is it would be pretty short. They've already given half of the archery season we USED to have to various gun sub-seasons.

I think some of you guys are so eat up with the romance of "Traditional Bowhunting", or are worried far to much about other people and their choices. I hunt with a bow of my choice, not yours. It happens to be a recurve or longbow now. I kill every bit as many deer now as I did with a compound. And I eat well. It doesn't make me special, it makes me a hunter. Something I doubt applies to anyone who thinks they deserve a special season for choosing one of these weapons.

Hunters who decide they want to kill something, kill's things. Regardless of the weapon they are using at the time. They don't require a pat on the back or a special season to differentiate them from other hunter's. They are blessed with a lot of things that give them the ability to be a hunter. And some hunters are just really good at killing their prey, so they don't need the verification those that aren't, seek as a reason for it being that way.

I'm not being hateful, just truthful. Get over it fellas and do your thing. If you think other weapons are easier to the point you feel entitled, I'm certain it is because you spend a lot more time romancing about this than actually being a hunter interested in killing. And that is fine. But, don't screw with other people to do your choice of things.

God's Blessing's to fill your freezers fellas.

good points

I agree dream on.

I think we should have special season for hunter's that wear size 10 boots.

Really...what difference does it make?? I have far more important things to worry about in my life right now that to get my bowels in an uproar about what kind of archery tackle someone else is using in the woods THAT I CAN'T EVEN SEE!

I wouldn't necessarily say it's a dream. Muzzleloaders have their own season in many states. A "traditional only" season could be possible in some states, but only with aggressive lobbying action from traditional bow groups and only if it was a late season add on and antlerless only. So, if a state wanted to add a week in January or early Feb. and make it traditional bow/antlerless only, aggressive lobbying could make it happen.

Think about the sway bear/coyote houndsman groups have and they're like 1% of the hunting community.

The selling points to DNR's and legislatures would be increased antlerless kill and recruitment in another form of hunting. But the majority of deer hunters would never accept a September-December traditional season or one that put more pressure on antlered bucks. A late January week that was antlerless only may be a much easier sell.

About the closest you could come to that would be an either/or aka choose your weapon system.

Montana has that for antelope and some of us pushed for that for elk...

If you get a 900 antelope tag, you can hunt any antelope district with a bow but no gun hunting that year.

Argument for: weeds out those hunters who really want to gun hunt but hate to give up their archery season.

There are some cons, I just cant think of any at the moment.

well if you get your trad. archery season only but that's the only time you can hunt with trad. equipment then crossbow has there season, then compound only. then youth only, then handgun, rifle, shotgun, etc. better leave well enough alone could have big negative effects. could be a two week season only.

yep muzzle loaders have their own season here, last a whole 4 days. trad archery would be the same.

yep are muzzleloader only season is right after two gun seasons a squirrel makes a noise the deer are in high gear an gone. would not want to wait tell January to use my longbow for 4 days lol.

you don't want a vote and have the compound guys vote for No Traditional do you? Leave it be.

WV nailed it. There is pressure on hunting. We all know this. Divisiveness is counterproductive. Would I rather compounds and x-bows share their own season. Absolutely. Its a no-brainer to me. But we live in the real world. Better to have allies then more adversaries - the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Come on guys... you know this.

-Gorbin

It always comes down to the same thing. Limited resources and wider range of users. To me it seems there is a big shift now toward the non- hunting outdoor activities. Sharing areas with these users is more compatible with the bowhunter than the gun hunter. That has given us opportunities in the past like depredation hunts in neighborhoods and State and city parks as well as commercial and industrial areas.

Things are always changing and ever faster these days. Good bowhunting organizations have to change with the times and seek out opportunities as they come. Open minded individuals leading these organizations is what gives us some great hunting for the bowhunter.

With the current range for deer increasing to include many more urban areas, old private established archery clubs that have found themselves in town now as urban sprawl swallows them up, there should be hunting allowed that could be regulated by the land owner or club membership.

Think folks and make things happen. You can find your niche in the bowhunting world and it can be exactly what you are looking for. This ain't Russia yet.

This is no time to be splitting our ranks with the anti's breathing down our necks. Although I do like the idea of a special season for those with size 10 boots. LOL Frank

Creating additional opportunity isn't splitting our ranks. I'm suggesting an ADDITIONAL season, in addition to regular archery seasons. All an additional week of bow season, that only allows a "lesser" weapon would do is promote and highlight traditional archery and invoke interest among those who may want to give it a try.

It was the creation of a muzzleloader season that spurred the growth in muzzleloader interest. While ML interest took off when the inline became mainstream, it was still the separate season that fostered the growth so that many gun hunters in shotgun zones now use ML's instead. That would have never happened without having a special ML season first.

I started ML hunting with my dad and his friends in the cap and ball days. But, the only reason we started doing it was because of the additional season dates added. Without an additional ML season, we'd have never started ML hunting back then.

Waterfowlers have all kinds of split dates and species seasons and waterfowling is doing just fine. If you want to promote traditional archery, find a way for non-traditional archers to want to try traditional archery hunting. Extra season dates is a great start.

Traditional bow hunters seem to love to complain that trad is a small niche in the market, but they seem to step over themselves in ways to keep traditional a small niche. Fearing changes in conventional thinking is one of those ways.

THE BEST THING YOU GUYS CAN DO IS FIND A WAY TO BE OFF and free Monday to Friday.

I hunt an 80,000 acre NWR. Bottomland Hardwoods. Surrrounded by Ag. More hunting and solo aloneness than you can use, during the week. If we could just get rid of those 2 Lottery gun weekends.

I'm so tired of the muzzleload vs cartridge, etc. Hunting as we know it is circling the drain anyway. Get your time in while you can.

Yall should be more focused on getting rid of ALL of the Tiffany's, of TV.

I Leave you a Blog I wrote on a Local Forum :

Hunting is not an ESPN Sport Posted April 1st, 2012 at 07:20 AM by Lamplighter Updated April 2nd, 2012 at 07:16 AM by Lamplighter Tags

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Todays trend to divert hunting as a team sport to be engaged in competition is not good in my eyes. I predict it will be the demise of legal hunting period. Hunting used to be a rural pastime that kids did in the rural areas when they got off the school bus in the evening. They went down to the creek to get a couple squirrels. Nothing more. It is sad to see hunting promoted as a sport much like basketball. In my eyes there is no such thing as a celebrity hunter. There is no such thing as a pro staff. You go hunting, enjoy the outdoors and the time alone, take what you need and leave the rest. Kills should be set down in the bed of the truck. There is no need to go parade around with the kill jacked up in the air. There should be no one going to Africa to represent USA in an extreme hunt. That is sad indeed. Hunting is not an ESPN sport. It is a rural pastime. In my opinion, we are on a negative track indeed.

The reason coyote and bear hunters have been so successful in lobbying for season has nothing to do with anything but the expanding population of those two animals. Not their lobbying ability. You can lobby for things but, if there is no valid biological reasons for it you aren't going to get it. If there were zero animals or floundering populations of animals you aren't going to get to hunt either. Get the correlation? Ideas of romance aren't biological or beneficial. They are just a notion fueled by desire to see thins from a one sided perspective.

I wander if all rifle hunters that use a 30/06 could lobby to have their own season since they are undoubtedly hunting with what most riflemen today feel is an inferior cartridge? Bear with me; when loaded correctly to acceptable case pressures, it mimics a 300 win mag in bullets up to 200 grains, in trajectory and knockdown energy. Yet most just take the factory loaded stuff and hunt with it at its inferior 2900 fps and 3000 foot lbs of muzzle energy. Wow, what a great hunter they are for picking such and old, out dated, inferior cartridge versus a modern Magnum. However, the '06 is such an old and romantic cartridge that has provided our military through 3 wars as the main stable; I bet on nostalgia alone, its users could convey its special position to gain their own season due to it's inferior design and performance.

See the irony here? No difference in what you suggest. God Bless

Awhile back a couple of 'good ol' huntin' boys approached the local sheriff and asked him if he could get them an extra month of hunting season. He asked them what they were going to call it. They replied, "Whatcha mean what we're gonna call it?" The sheriff answered, "You boys hunt 12 months of the year now. If I get you another month, what are you going to call it?" from the late J.W.

WTF? It already is "traditional season" . You hunt with only a longbow or recurve and nothing else? Well, there you go, your season is 100% "traditional". No one is forcing you to hunt any other way.

i 'd like a week just for me, the hell with everyone else.

Sounds good but cAn't happen. I suggest getting in a hunting club and convert it to traditional only.

"All an additional week of bow season, that only allows a "lesser" weapon would do is promote and highlight traditional archery and invoke interest among those who may want to give it a try."

Mojostick, you're absolutely right. I tried to get the ball rolling a few years back to get a "Primitive" season here in Michigan. The biggest opponents to the idea were the traditional hunters. People think only of themselves and what THEY want instead of what it might do to help the growth of hunting traditional.

There was a time many years ago when bow hunting was mentioned the general public envisioned a hunter using a recurve or longbow. Then later they envisioned a hunter with a compound, before long a bow hunter will be envisioned as using a crossbow. We NEED to keep the picture in peoples minds of the hunter with a traditional bow. They NEED to know that there is an alternative to how a bow hunter can hunt. A good way to do that would be to give the traditional hunter the RECOGNITION by way of a season for hunting with a traditional bow.

Bow hunting has gone from hunting the hard way to killing the biggest and the most with the most effective equipment available.

If you missed it the first time I'll repeat it. Traditional bow hunting would benefit greatly from the RECOGNITION of a special season. Then maybe, just maybe we can save it from becoming an antiquated style of hunting that was swept away back into the past by the moderation of the sport.

I don't like the Crossbows in TN....all during Archery. I'm certain that the TWRA has made a lot more money from all of the Archery licenses sold.

Hell no, stupid idea. Way too divisive.

What about trad folks that want to hunt with buds and family members that use a C-bow?

NO!, Hunters MUST STICK TOGETHER! Regardless of type of bow used.

If you use trad gear, guess what, THERES YOUR TRAD SEASON!

No benefit to a special season. No matter who says that. I mean no disrespect but, that is just a mans opinion who makes traditional hunting ways a livelihood. Nothing more. We aren't in danger of losing the ability to hunt traditional, so there is no need to segregate it unless you want to damage it. Late season, brutal cold, spooky deer, few participating, will show success rates to be dismal. Which will do nothing but help paint the traditional bow as inferior to the unknowing hunter who has never tried it and the general public. Just my opinion. I'm not trying to be over bearing. I'm just trying to discuss this.

And to try and take a more prime time line isn't going to happen for several reasons. God Bless

Take the blinders off boys.... Here it is again for those that didn't read it.

"There was a time many years ago when bow hunting was mentioned the general public envisioned a hunter using a recurve or longbow. Then later they envisioned a hunter with a compound, before long a bow hunter will be envisioned as using a crossbow. We NEED to keep the picture in peoples minds of the hunter with a traditional bow. They NEED to know that there is an alternative to how a bow hunter can hunt. A good way to do that would be to give the traditional hunter the RECOGNITION by way of a season for hunting with a traditional bow.

Bow hunting has gone from hunting the hard way to killing the biggest and the most with the most effective equipment available.

If you missed it the first time I'll repeat it. Traditional bow hunting would benefit greatly from the RECOGNITION of a special season. Then maybe, just maybe we can save it from becoming an antiquated style of hunting that was swept away back into the past by the moderation of the sport."

Reality Check. We had a traditional only season, it was called bow hunting. Big money and lazy hunters expanded it to compounds and now to crossbows. We'll NEVER get it back.....

If your old enough, you remember how good it was, if not, sucks to be young.

So JusPassin, how does that affect you? How do crossbows affect your hunting? Last I checked hunting was me against the animal not me against other hunters.

The day will come where archery kills are too high for some states deer population. Our bow kill has already come within a few thousand of catching gun season. At that time guys in those states either fight for a separate season or get less time to hunt. Just like the muzzle loader hunting in states that don't allow inlines in ml season.

I agree with a special set aside season but with primitive equipment, self bows, stone points and wood or bamboo arrows. Hey wait a minute, that would mean about 90 percent of you fellas won't be able to hunt. How you like that, not much fun if you can't play.lol

Crossbows aka X - guns need not to be mixed in with archery seasons. I have heard of and know of gun hunters going out and buying a crossbow, thinking their going to get the range out of a bolt they do out of a bullet. I know of three gun hunters that bought crossbows the night before they were to go deer hunting the next morning after taking a crash course on the X - gun's use. One wounded a deer and he admitted to me that he thought the bow was just like a gun. If too much of this mindset goes on bow hunters are going to get a black eye bigger than the ones we already have from the non - hunting public.

Sure and lets have a women's only season and season for only minorities. Geez, last one in close the door.

JusPassin, your right we'll probably never get it back. The biggest reason I think is there's too many people in the woods with less brains than God gave a goose. I'm talking about guys in their 20's that choose to hunt with a crossbow. They're not into archery they're just into "Killin stuff"....:>/

We don't need any more special seasons ... I've recently tried to find some private land to bow hunt on. I was flat out denied by a local farmer who stated bow hunters wound deer to much. I asked why he felt this way he told me I can't count the number of deer I've found in the last 40 years from arrows. I tried to tell him many bow hunters are excellent shots he listened and stated I've tried to let guys bow hunt here and finally put a stop to it. Very sad maybe we need a accuracy test and a minimum poundage requirement.I'am a bow hunter the season is long which I'am grateful for. Maybe a mandatory bow hunter education. We've all lost deer we need to promote bow hunter education and practice practice practice and encourage fellow bow hunters to practice even if there equipment is different than ours.

I like that Will tell

"Then maybe, just maybe we can save it from becoming an antiquated style of hunting that was swept away back into the past by the moderation of the sport."

Sorry I meant to say Modernization, not moderation

and what would traditional equipment be no carbon in limbs, wood arrows only. longbow ,selfbow, in 3-d most traditional class considered longbow cut before center and wood arrows only

Keep the rules simple, no wheels no crossbows.

Taking life is killing, plan and simple. I guess Ron you have killed stuff too. And someone please tell us all how crossbows or compounds affect their hunting? Do you guys hunt in a Walmart parking lot with 100's of other hunters? I see damn few guys in the woods and I hunt a lot. I go on a fair number of trips and those camps always have hunters shooting everything legal. It in NO WAY affects my hunting and I still "killstuff", guys with rifles, compounds and crossbows are impressed I "killstuff" with a longbow. I don't do it to impress anyone, it's just what I like to do.

And please tell us all how a "trad" season would make anything better? All I can gather from this post is guys want less competition in taking an animals life. They don't want the other guy to kill their animal I guess. Become a better hunter and don't be afraid of the other guys in the woods.

The elitism of the "trad" world is mostly sickening.

Well, personally, no and I mean no. We arent that special because of what we shoot, however,,,,,,,,

One of the most sought after draw hunts in Oklahoma is the MCAlester army ammo draw. People literally from across the US put in for it. For 6 weekends 150 drawn hunters get 2 1/2 days to hunt on 48,000 acres. The place has almost a 1- 5 buck /doe ratio. About 20 yrs ago the game manager got ticked off at some rude and sloppy hunters. Too many young bucks were being killed, too many long shots taken that wounded deer that were not found in time. So he retricted the method of taking deer to longbows or recurves, with no attachments except quivers. Kill ratio returned to less than 10 percent. Bucks live longer and now there are more pope and young deer there than any other location.

But he didnt do it because of the nobility of traditional bows, he did it to accomplished preset goals of managing deer.

So there you have that special place, in my state to do just that. Your chances of drawing out are about 1 in 250. There is a list of rules as long as your arm that if you violate them will land your butt before a federal magistrate.

Knock yourself out

Killinstuff...............

Right on brother, I paddle my boat and let the other guy do the same.

James

Killinstuff

Good post!

Would add that over 50 percent of the people who draw out for this trad hunt, do so and only get their trad bow after they draw out, usually the cheapest piece of crap they can find. Last year one guy came into the shop and bought a 150 dollar samick, and 3 arrows with broadheads on wednesday, he was on his way to the hunt the next day.

Fine bunch of trad hunters to make you proud

I would absolutely support a traditional only season just as soon as the present archery seasons get shortened due to the efficiency of compound bows.

Sure! What do you think about October 25th through November 5th! Nobody should mind that 2% of the archery hunting population is going to take 10 days of hunting from them.

What happens when the guys with the wheels feel pissed off about the stick guys and try to make them obsolete? I do believe they have the numbers and could probably make a better case.

How about NO traditional archery weapons during archery season!

As crazy as it sounds it is more likely than a traditional only season.

Sorry Ron as much as I respect your insight in archery I feel that in this day and age it would do more harm than good to fight the modern archery guys. They would have support of the activists, modern equipment being more efficient, if it ever got down and dirty!

killinstuff X5.

Nobody has blinders on and nobody didn't hear you Ron. However, most of us hunters don't understand your point because you or no other has answered the simplest of questions posed by killinstuff. Do that with reason and I'll listen. I'm up for learning everyday. Swelling up in the chest and answering with a condescending post that describes how you feel doesn't convince anyone your right. Once again, not being disrespectful, just willing to debate it to get it right. God Bless

United we stand, divided we fall.

Ron LeClair said it well,I agree with a special area or season also. A bit off the main subject,but example wise would, be a special area allowed during the gun season where flintlocks only could be used I dont think I would hunt with one, but wouldn't be OPPOSED to those who do!!

Excuse the typo mistake should be LaClair.

guess I have an old fashoned flawed mind set:

but always felt that archery season= longbow/recurve

muzzle loader season= flint lock or cap lock up to and including civil war era design muzzle loaders

everything else in the rifle season

thats why in the past we had long primitive seasons

guess the modern world has left me behind , a long time ago

I love to deer hunt with my flintlock and can do so during regular shotgun season and muzzleloader season but all together still only 10 days. with my bow I get from 1st October tell middle of January I wouldn't want to jeopardize that for a week of traditional only. even when I hunt state ground never see anyone else in the woods. well one time in Shawnee he was carrying a longbow to. past on a old logging road.

There is a special area where only flintlocks and patched round balls are allowed....it's called Pennsylvania! And good for them! If it dosn 't have a side lock ,and burn REAL black powder, it belongs in the general gun season!

To clarify, I'm not talking about having "regular" archery season dates where compounds and xbows have exclusive rights to all the early dates, where somehow traditional archery is excluded from regular archery seasons and where traditional archers get stuck with only a week in January or some other late season dates. I'm suggesting we think in the exact terms that were considered when muzzleloader season dates were added, in addition to "regular firearms" season dates. The words "in addition to" are paramount.

Of course traditional archery would be accepted in any "typical" August-December archery seasons, as it's always been. Heck, that WAS the archery season. Nobody is suggesting relegating traditional archery to a caboose position. I'm suggesting the locomotive position. Drive interest, don't chase it.

I'm talking about multiple hunting groups demanding additional late season dates from our respective DNR's as a way to promote traditional archery and even side lock ML' hunting.

I can't stress the ML season experience enough. I started ML hunting/shooting in 1980. I know Ron L. and others did so well before that, but virtually all the interest in cap and ball ML hunting from my dad/elders came from the advent of those special seasons dates. The season WAS created to invoke interest and it succeeded. Gung ho deer hunters love to try new things, if they think everyone else around them is playing on the same field. Lots of hunters would love to chase deer in late, late season with traditional bows if they knew everyone was doing the same. How cool would that be? It wouldn't take long before lots more wanted to participate.

I'll make a no so crazy prediction, but if Michigan had a "primitive" season that ran from January 2-January 31 in the LP only and rules were that only antlerless deer in units open to "additional antlerless tags" and even antlered bucks retaining both sides must have 8 points over 1", and all that hunters could use was only side lock cap and ball open sight ML's, recurves, long bows and self bows, I bet we'd have 50,000 plus hunters participating in that season within 5 years. Keep in mind, Michigan already has some 160,000-175,000 ML hunters hunting in December and some 60,000-70,000 participating in late antlerless season. Having 50,000 hunters out in the woods with trad bows and Hawkens after a few years is not out of line.

Also keep in mind that most workers get a re-set on days off at the first of the year. A 40 degree day in January would be a great day to get out.

If we want to promote traditional archery, and traditional muzzleloaders, well then we have to PROMOTE both of them. Promoting means making the average joe who already bow hunts with a compound or xbow or already gun hunts with a shotgun or rifle to want to hunt with a traditional bow or a traditional muzzleloader. And the only way we're going to do that in this day and age is to establish unique and separate seasons promoting both.

The growth potential in traditional archery hunting isn't going to come from the kids of existing traditional archers, it's going to come from the millions of existing compound hunters who want something more from their bow season, as their hair grays and their walls fill with antlers. All the need is that extra nudge. Opening up seasons where all interested bow hunters and muzzleloader hunters can use is traditional gear is the absolute key to making that happen.

Promotion of "trad" archery by offering a deer as a target? As a reward? Sorry but that is on par with all the crossbow comments crossbow haters say. Animals have value beyond a target or incentive. Michigan has three months in which a guy can grab a stick bow and try and kill a deer. If that person doesn't do it in three months we should give them another month to change their mind? Nope. They have rabbits they can practice on like I did/do after deer season is over.

As for the ML guys...... This is Bowsite, not Muzzleloadersite. I think the old time front loaders are pretty cool but don't own one. No opinion.

"Promotion of "trad" archery by offering a deer as a target? As a reward?"

Nope, promotion of real archery in order to keep our long seasons. Either you're too young to know how it used to be or got a real short memory. Ohio doesn't have to worry right now because our deer herds so big. Or do we? We just lost 10 deer from our limit.

How many do you need to kill in a season GLF? One or two a year isn't enough? Most guys are happy as can be to kill one. And how would killing more deer extend the season? Your limit was cut by 10 for reason but you you want a longer season to do what? Sit in the woods and not be able to kill anything because you reached you limit? You guys make no sense.

Speculating on how things might be is pointless. The sky is falling the sky is falling in your world. How sad.

3DKiller, wondering what state(s) don't require a mandatory bowhunter's ed course? I'm only familiar with NY and VT, where we need a "regular" hunter's ed AND a bowhunter's ed. Both states also have minimum poundage requirements, though I know that does vary in different states.

As an old timer who started bowhunting with a longbow, that's all we had, I argued against allowing compounds way back when. I, along with others, obviously lost that battle. I live and hunt in Kansas, and as such can (and do) use recurve, compound, and crossbow at various times during our archery season. Originally Kansas only allowed crossbows for under 16 and over 55 year old archers. That didn't seem a bad idea since it not only allowed more youth archery participation, but allow some older archers to stay in the game without doctor endorsements. I still enjoy the recurve the most. But with our numbers steadily dropping, do we want to exclude allowing any more potential archers in the game, however we can get them there? We need to reach as many youth as possible, while keeping as many current archers as we can. Just my 2 cents.

You would just end up with folks who bought a trad bow and wounded animals due to having no idea how to use it. You can't change folks by simply giving them another few days in the field. Most folks now days have no business using trad equipment. Society is so lazy that they just won't commit enough to be truly proficient.

Didn't want any to misunderstand my post either. While those of us who can remember had traditional only seasons when we started this journey there is no way to go back. It's too late for that. What I can easily see happening is an overall shortening of archery seasons as soon as arrows start taking too much game. That or a reduction in bag limits as has been pointed out.

Some of the responses here illustrate why crossbows will continue to consume archery seasons. It also illustrates why most traditional archers don't understand why that's the case. Crossbows aren't popular because of some shadowy manufactures making back room deals. The other weapons are so popular because of how they are promoted.

The irony is, it's traditional archers themselves who are most likely the ones who do not want to expand traditional archery. They like the sport being small. More some, the less traditional bow hunters, the better.

Juspassin, If anything, given the solid hunter participation in archery seasons across the nation, we'll see shorter firearms seasons and longer archery seasons. Archery hunters numbers have remained very stable, with "regular" firearms season hunter participation dropping, in most states. Also, given that many deer are now in populated area's, that also lends itself to DNR's seeking more and more in the way of archery to deal with suburban deer. In addition, the biggest demographic in growth is female archery hunters. I wouldn't be concerned about shortening of archery season dates. If one notices, DNR's are always trying to add seasons, be it early seasons, late seasons or youth seasons. Oddly enough, again, it's typically hunters who are the ones crying about more hunting dates. In truth, many hunters are pretty self centered in the concern that someone else, God forbid, may kill "their deer". Even worse, many are really concerned that some kid may kill "their deer" in a youth season. Take a look at who is against the concept of an additional trad season, in order to promote more interest in trad archery. The last thing some trad guys want is more compound guys giving trad archery a 2nd look. Oh, the horror!

Yeah I like to just sit in the woods,lol. Poijnt is, they lower the limit cause of too many being killed, eventually it'll shorten the season. Be nice to have our own season so when that happens ours don't get shortened. Killinstuff how old are you anyhow?

I don't care who hunts in the woods with me. The seasons can run at the same time. But when its time to shorten I want to be listed separate so its the more advanced weapons the lose some season. Not the real bows. I argued the same thing when they legalized xbows. They told us how xbows would never be that poopualr. Well they now kill 10k more deer per year than all other bows.

All states have some form of antler point restriction. If fact, some people really defended Michigan's current 4pt on one side rule. It's been wild game management, and evolving rules, that have saved hunting in North America and why it thrives today. I will always proudly support wild game management and forest management. Despite what some think, killing isn't everything in game management, be it changing duck bag limit rules, bear permit lottery numbers, fishing size limits and the like. For most sportsmen, throwing a small fish back, passing a hen pheasant or letting deer walk isn't a big deal and they consider it all a part of the sport. But as we see in DNR violation blotters, there are some that refuse to acknowledge the rules that best serve the long term health of the game animals or fish.

"We NEED to keep the picture in peoples minds of the hunter with a traditional bow. They NEED to know that there is an alternative to how a bow hunter can hunt. A good way to do that would be to give the traditional hunter the RECOGNITION by way of a season for hunting with a traditional bow.

Bow hunting has gone from hunting the hard way to killing the biggest and the most with the most effective equipment available.

If you missed it the first time I'll repeat it. Traditional bow hunting would benefit greatly from the RECOGNITION of a special season. Then maybe, just maybe we can save it from becoming an antiquated style of hunting that was swept away back into the past by the moderation of the sport."

Mr Laclair. I'm a beginner in recurve shooting. Not consistant enough to hunt with a clear conscience yet. My question to you is, In what way would trad hunting benefit from RECOGNITION of a special season? Seriously, I'm asking for clarification. Why do we NEED to keep the picture in people's minds of a recurve or a longbow when they think of bow hunting? Why would anyone NEED to know there is an alternative way a bowhunter can hunt?

What will change? Is someone trying to BAN trad bowhunting because of lack of interest? Is the government threatening confiscation of bows and equipment because of lack of interest? Please, enlighten me how I NEED my neighbor or the general public to approve of my choice of bows?

I also have no problem with compounds, crossbows, or inline muzzleloaders. What is it that we gun owners say? Guns don't kill people, people kill people? Well, I for one am intelligent enough to realize crossbows or compounds or inline muzzleloaders don't take to the woods all by themselves.

I started bowhunting deer in 1962, in NY state, we had a 14 day season at that time. 1 deer of either sex was allowed. This year bow season runs from Oct. 1 to Nov. 14, with a late season from Dec. 8 to Dec. 16. Still 1 deer of either sex, unless you have an extra deer management permit that you pay extra for. The crossbow season runs from Nov. 1 to Nov. 14.

I don't recall seeing any snakey osage primitive bows or knapped arrow heads during the '60s and '70s. At that time some kids were still allowed to make their own primitive bows, but you would not see a hunter or a target shooter with one of them. Today you don't see any LWer kids with a primitive bow of their own making. They all have custom made bows as soon as they are born, so as they don't embarrass dear old dad. Most people at that time were buying the latest model recurves that were available. When compounds began to be popular in the mid '70s, the majority of bowhunters took to them like ducks to water.

GLF, The truth is, at least in Michigan, even though many archers have switched to crossbows, we still have less bow hunters than we did in the 1990's. Also, the archery harvest numbers average the same as they have over the last 15 years.

From my time working at Cabela's, virtually all the males buying crossbows were on the older side and virtually all of them were already bow hunters. At least that was my experience. I did see "new" women and "new" kids under 20 having the existing male bow hunters buying xbows for them, as a way to join them as a family.

There won't be any shortening of archery season dates. If anything, since December has become more popular with ML hunters, we'll add later archery dates. My only suggestion was, if we're going to add later season dates, why not make a part of it traditional only, to grow the sport? ML hunting has grown because ML's have their own season. That's all. I know change is scary for some people. Obviously, some traditional hunters don't want more compound hunters giving trad a try. I guess that's fine for them. Have a great Holiday! Off to a rainy neighborhood party.

Maybe this is an issue elsewhere, but we already get about 3 1/2 months in IL and WI. I'll take a pass on the idea of special trad seasons here. They're just not needed and will do nothing but start a fight we can't win.

It seems like a double edged sword on I e hand I see a lot of folks talking smack about compound or crossbow guys then they want to recruit them to shoot trad? It makes me no matter what folks want to shoot as long as they don't try and make me conform to their standards

While I'm at it, I'll admit to being the sort of man who will put sights and a raised rest on my recurve if it will improve my shooting, and I'll tell any man who criticizes this action to shut up and mind his own business.I'll hunt with it when and where it's legal. I began shooting trad bows because I am interested in them. I have been ever since I made my first one at 10 years old for a school project back when a kid could make a bow and bring it to school. Not because I'm on some kinda JOURNEY or whatever it is. I've shot my recurve, then put it down and picked up my compound and shot some more. Never felt superior, or inferior. When I get more consistant in my shooting with the recurve, I'll hunt with it. Until then I'll hunt with my compound. I think I'll go price out some crossbows ,since I like them as well.

49 GFL if it matters so much to you and I've never shot a compound or crossbow. Been shooting a stickbow since I could pull one back and my old man was killing deer with a longbow back in the 50's while stationed up here with the Coast Guard. What's your point?

They are not needed here. We have already lost about 200,000 hunters he in Pa. in the past two decades. To me that would be counter-productive and viewed negatively from other hunters. I don't mind sharing.

Michigan has no mandatory bow hunter education. We have a basic hunter education for the youngsters. The point is we have so many special seasons already our deer our already being hunted with firearms before bow hunters start our October 1st opener. It seems to me our deer herd in Michigan is on a decline at least were I've been hunting state and national forest areas.

I HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR Ron LaClair! I feel your passion. Problem is modern man has lost his connection with nature. Some hunters my still have it... Maybe your one of the lucky ones... Nice to hear one speak out boldly of what he believes in. When I enter the woods with my Bear recurve. I am kinda stepping back in time. And that's how I like to do it..... Good post Ron

I agree with Gray Squirrel about the MCAAP Hunt. It is so popular now that the instate hunters are losing out to out of state hunters in the draw. I can't complain much as my families ranch borders (4000 ac) the Depot and we see some of them when they come off the base. And they are BIG!!! Where I live in the OK Panhandle there are about an equal number of traditional/compound shooters at the 3D matches and everyone gets along. I prefer traditional due to the simplicity and with hardly any trees I find it easier to hunt with traditional equipment in spotting and stalking the sage and crop fields.

Mojo, Ohio must just be different. Our archery hunter numbers are almost up to 500,000 since crossbows. OUr kill numbers went up drastically, not just because of xbows but because also of the advanced compounds. We're just shy of 90k archery kill now. 10k more xbow kills than other bows. Maybe we won't lose any archery season. But we were told by odnr once that we had such a long season (4 months)because archery doesn't have enough kill to effect the herd. That's no longer the case so yeah I'd love to have real bows classified separately from others. Just in case the day comes that they begin to shorten season.

Someone needs to be smart enough to look beyond the 'what we want' and consider the down-range ramifications of getting it. If we somehow landed a traditional archery season simply because we prefer the weapon, an avalanche of similar attempts will happen. You might as well close the door on this rationale.

The best scenario for a traditional archery season would be one in which we took advantage of a situation where traditional weapons would be seen (by DNR & legislators) as preferable to all others for a particular hunt or season. Reasons for it would most likely center around reduced participation & success rates, limited resource, and a desire to promote less technology-oriented weapons. When a state sees traditional weaponry as the ideal weaponry for a specific situation, then it might just happen. To that possibility, someone would need to be able to document and convincingly present data which clearly identifies the disparity between bow types and resulting harvest figures. If the case could be made based on logic and numbers, then we might have a shot.

Doing a trad season because we simply want one to exclude all other weapons makes us appear selfish and divisive, whether we are or not. I don't know about you, but I'm not into being identified as a member of a segregationist movement simply because I don't use the same type bow as my neighbor.

“So JusPassin, how does that affect you? How do crossbows affect your hunting? Last I checked hunting was me against the animal not me against other hunters.” Here’s the thing….

Some seasons exist to manage the herd; other exist to manage the hunters. Hunting pressure, to be more precise. Archery seasons were conceived to do the latter. Self-Imposed Crowd Control because, to be honest, most guys figured it wasn’t worth their time. But by and large and by and by, bow season participation has kept pace with technology: the easier it gets to put an arrow into a pie plate, the more “bowhunters” we see hitting the woods each year. On the other hand, you impose a Choose Your Weapon system and the bowhunter density will drop like a rock. At the end of the day, most hunters are out there to be “Killin’ Stuff”; you make an opportunity available to them and they’ll take it gladly… so long as it is IN ADDITION to their other tags.

The problem these days is that it has become the norm for wildlife managers to use bow seasons to manage the whitetail herds, and in this case “manage” is just a polite way of saying Cull The Snot Out Of. And with the pressure on them to hit a harvest target number, there’s no way on God’s Green Earth that they’re going to set aside one MINUTE of legally-permissible hunting time for anyone just so he can further reduce his chances of punching a tag. They’re more interested in getting approvals for additional days, REDUCED restrictions on equipment, and permitting practices (such as baiting) for the express purpose of making more deer easier to kill, if at all possible.

So if you are able to hunt where pressure from other hunters has no effect whatsoever on your time afield, God Bless You. Or, rather, He already DID – by giving you such a place to hunt.

I just got home from a long holiday weekend, did some fishing and the early goose season opened yesterday. Ate some fish...didn't have a goose dinner..8>)

It looks like a lot of you stayed home and kept this thread alive.

OK, I'll take another stab at it. A special Trad season is NOT about killing more deer. It's NOT about killing someone else's deer, it's NOT about being an elite'est, it's NOT about taking anything away from the current bow season. It WOULD be about adding a season in January for anterless deer only. It would be low impact on the herd and provide more quality hunting time for those that choose to participate.

I know that a lot of people say we don't NEED a special season, "I can hunt with my traditional bow anytime and compounds and crossbows don't bother me"....and that is TRUE. That's the way it is NOW...But if you think it will always be this way you're in for a rude awakening in the not too distant future.

The special traditional season would be to PRESERVE a way of hunting. It would give traditional hunting a FACE to the general public. It would also help traditional hunting GROW if it was more exposed. In essence it's about SAVING a way of hunting that may very well be headed for eventual extinction or at the very least a serious decline.

As old Bear Claw told Jeremiah, "Watch yer topnot, an keep yer eyes along the skyline" them Blackfeet are shootin crossbows now...

Couldn't agree more with Ron.

Well said.

Ken – no, I don’t have any problem AT ALL with Killin’ Stuff. Deer are so much easier to fit into the freezer once they've stopped kicking.... So yes, kill in good conscience, provided it is done well and cleanly and no meat goes to waste. It does annoy me a bit to see a perfectly good hide left to rot, but tanning does get kinda spendy…..

On the motivation of deer managers to remove ever higher numbers each year, we’re on the same page, though I would certainly say that if HALF the population gets cropped off every year, then individual hunters are ABSOLUTELY in competition with each other for animals to shoot. If you’re a deer manager, a cripple that runs off to die is almost a benefit, because it removes the animal and leaves the hunter in the field; but as someone who would benefit from a more target-rich hunting environment, lost cripples really tick me off, because I’m just cocky enough to venture that if *I* had been so fortunate as to have a shot at the animal in question, it’d be going home with me that day…

And you want to talk competition between hunters? How many threads have we waded through here discussing the Rights and Wrongs of leaving a stand up all season on public land, as if to claim the spot for one’s self? How many times have we heard guys get indignant about some “Jerk” who supposedly “moved in” on a tree or a trail which the poster clearly believes was “his” sole domain?

Now…

I hear Ron’s point about carving out just a little time specifically for wheelless, triggerless archery, even if only to preserve it as an historical artifact. Though frankly, I’m not sure that I’d opt in on the late, late show. In some respects, there’s no sense throwing a season if nobody will hunt it.

But it would make perfect sense in some states… as long as it’s an either-or proposition. For example, Colorado could offer a recurve&longbow season in the first half of October, concurrent with the moose draw season… But you’d have to pass on the first “regular” archery season AND all of the firearms to qualify for the second.

Or in states like CT where they are desperate to thin the herds but the population distribution is all screwed up, maybe the “trad” season is statewide, but modern equipment is still permitted on private property? There’s got to be a week or two SOMEWHERE between 9/15 and January when it would be OK to let a few retrogrouches have free rein on public land, surely…

I'm truly sorry that I haven't been able to get the message across to so many about the special season idea. First off I'm not proposing to take ANYTHING away from the current archery seasons. Nor am I trying to be an elite'est in suggesting that people that hunt with sticks and strings are better than those that hunt with modern bows...and that includes crossbows. I am simply trying to promote the idea of hunting with what we call traditional gear.

I've been shooting traditional bows all my life and have hunted with them for 60 years. When the compound bow came out in the 70's I was one of those that decided I didn't need one. In the late 70's when there were rumblings from a few about longbows I started promoting longbows by attending shows and shoots showing traditional gear and literature. The purpose of this was educate people about "old time" archery. Of coarse traditional archery isn't for everyone, many people love the latest and greatest high tech gear and there's nothing wrong with that. As long as you love what your doing and are having fun, that's what it's all about.

After several years of promoting longbows with the shows and shooting demonstrations I got enough support to start the Michigan Longbow association in 1983 and was the President for the first 7 years. In 1985 I fulfilled a dream of having a National longbow shoot, and started the Great Lakes Longbow Invitational. It was a rousing success and grew every year, this last year the GLLI celebrated it's 30th anniversary.

In 2001 G Fred Asbell called me about having a place to have a shoot for the newly formed Compton organization, of which I am a Life member, I suggested the Berrian Springs club and it has been at that location ever since. After 30 plus years of promoting traditional archery I guess I just can't get out of the habit.

Not far from me there is an archery shop owned and run by a man I've known for 40 years. He has been in archery all of his life, his Mother and Dad were both avid target shooters, his Mother was a State Field archery Champion. Recently I noticed a sign in the window of his shop that said, "Retirement Sale" I ask him what that was about, he said, "crossbows are running me out of business" His business was selling compound bows Being an old time archer he refused to sell crossbows in his shop. He told me that crossbows now are 63% of the archery business. I don't know where he got that figure but it shocked me to hear it. He also predicted to me that the day will come when crossbow hunters will be perceived as "THE" bowhunter. Lord I hope not, that's a scary thought.

That's why I think by bringing traditional bowhunting to the forefront in the form of a special season would be a win win situation.

Again, it would not be taking anything away from the regular season, only adding additional hunting opportunity for those that choose to hunt with a traditional bow.

Kevin, I don't know how long you have been involved in the inner circles of archery but trust me, bowhunting is changing...FAST! If you can't see the writing on the wall then take another look.

Because I have an archery business I get all of the archery business catalogs, I use to just file 13 them but lately I've been reading them and it's as plain as the nose on your face where the Industry is leading bowhunters. We can't stop it but if we sit back and do nothing we'll get pushed right off the mountain.

Anyone read the McAlester, Ok. Army Ammo Depot Traditional BowHunt report on this subject, it is in one of the late 90s TBM articles. Infact, a fellow trad bowhunter on this site tried to get a Trad Bow season area at Ft. McCoy, Wi. by giving the Federal Wildlife Manager the report and all he got for his effort was excuses and a fist in the air (middle finger), the hunters tags were just increased after that ( I was there to witness it all). The average hunter just do not give a frick and that is why the methods/equipment have always been passed to stack the deck against the game for success. The easiest solution is just put a ban on all handheld releases and go hunt w/ your compound and put the shoulder throwing arrow into the gun season. That would level the fair hunting chase. 35 yrs ago I was told to buy land if you like hunting because there will not be much on public land, the problem I had several kids and a job that was just enough to get by and couldn't take another mortgage out just for hunting w/o taking my kids education away. On another point, we have youth hunts, disable hunts, special tag hunts and why not a Trad hunt that started it all. Since modern bow equipment is so effective they could have several wks and the trad hunters can have the rut to make it fair for all you progressive lib hunters. Enjoy your hunt!

In my state inless they lengthen the season it would take away from the bowhunter the only time we can not hunt is during shoot gun 4 days in nov. And3 in Dec. We can hunt during youth and muzzleloader and late season. With any bow oct1---- jan 15 I don't see where a special season will promote trad. At first there would be a bunch of people using trad. That dont have a clue how to shoot one then it would drop back to the dedicated trad. If you really want to promote traditional archery get your head out of your own little circle and go shoot at you locale pro shop with compound shooters and go shoot 3-d with the compound guys you will be amazed how many would like to try your bow and maybe even be surprised how many go buy a bow. Ask too shoot with them most will say ok. but hanging in your on little group bitching about them is not going no where.

"Is it on the decline now? In the last 20 years, have the amount of traditional bowhunters increased or decreased? What gives you the impression that it is headed for eventual extinction without it's own season?"

Kevin, the decline may very well already have begun. How many traditional shoots did you attend this year? Every traditional shoot across the Country from the big ones to the small ones were down in attendance this year. It could have been high gas prices, it could have been many things...or it could be a decline in interest in traditional archery. Let's hope it's not the latter.

Kevin, This thread has been about a special traditional season, your concern seems to be more about antler restrictions and limiting opportunity for other hunters, neither of which is relevant to this thread.

So your not involved in the inner circles of archery or bowhunting, how involved are you, enough to be concerned for the future of bowhunting. Our FUTURE is what I'm thinking about. I'm trying to look ahead to see whats around the corner and I can see red lights flashing ahead

If you think giving trad bows a special season is fragmenting hunting further, be more specific.

I have heard you say you're against it but I haven't heard WHY you're against it. Do you have a reason? I'd like to hear it.

Don't see the decline when all the custom Bowers have a year or more waiting list some not even taking orders and some of the trad. Suppliers have back orders on a lot of products .even the leather wall has grown.

To those who say it doesn't matter about Trad seasons or areas,if its to be around to spark that "stirring within" for folks in the future its needed.Example:How may folks use or even see many hunting with flintlock during the gun/ML season?Not many but ask those in Pennsylvania how many hunt use flintlock?I will bet it a heck of a lot,reason being its a special season restricted the use of flintlocks. They same can have the ripple effect to preserve Trad archery/bowhunting if there are special areas and or seasons set aside for such use. If we continue with the present Trad archery/bowhunting will at best remain static or begin to decrease,which in many areas of the country it has already.

Don't know how one quantifies that the sport is declining. Changing maybe, but I'm not so sure it is in decline. My goodness, last year was a banner year for traditional archery. Samick couldn't keep up with entry-level bows....small archery shops were selling hundreds of kids and other bows as fast as they could get them. This negative "chicken little" connotation seems to be more made up than substance.

Maybe some of the big shoot are down, but there are myriad reasons that could be....not just the death knell of traditional archery. As far as separating seasons even further, I am not in line to do that. If I thought for a second it would be helpful, I would maybe have a different point of view. Our overall hunting numbers are down, so that is a sign we don't need to further segregate. Here in Pa. we have plenty of places to get away, even during rifle season...which is unlike most states with much less numbers of hunters.

The sport is healthy from what I can see. I suspect it will be around when the whiners are long gone.

The only way we'll get pushed off the mountain if we demand a segregation from other bowhunters with a special season. Late season, low odds, low participation, etc... will all be used to support their claim it is an inferior way of hunting. God Bless

Like I said previously, we have one. And it has caused discord and still does. People not getting a bow until they know they draw out.

And again, it was done to manage a specific area to reduce kill percentage and force doe taking. In short it had squat to do with trad archery.

Wish they would make it to where you had to hit a deer kill zone 3 out of 5 shots at 15 yds. That alone would cull out over half.

But then we couldnt go on our trad "Journey" or whatever the heck feel good warm and fuzzy stuff.

Here, the BIGGEST 3 d shoots in the state are trad only shoots. Yes, we have crossbows and stuff, but after the first two weeks of season are gone 70 per cent of the "bowhunters" are done. Last year in a Public hunting area known for big deer and lots of pigs a friend of mine camped for a solid week. He and another 22 hunters had over 9000 acres to themselves.

Granted I am one of the fortunate people who owns or controlls access to about 1000 acres. I determine what those that hunt use and what they hunt with. And the answer is very simple. Is it legal? If yes, your good. If not your gone

"The only way we'll get pushed off the mountain if we demand a segregation from other bowhunters with a special season. Late season, low odds, low participation, etc... will all be used to support their claim it is an inferior way of hunting."

No one is demanding segregation, only a short time in the off season to keep alive a way of hunting the hard way. It would be up to the Michigan DNR to decide if it would be a good thing or not a good thing.

I never realized that there were so many short sighted people on this site. I'd be curious to know how those who oppose the idea of promoting traditional bowhunting became involved in traditional archery in the first place. It's been such a well kept secret I wonder how they found out about it.

I have only been on this site for about four years, but I have noticed that several people, that have practiced all summer with their trad bows, revert back to their compounds as soon as hunting season rolls around. So I don't think an extra late trad season would mean much to them. When a bunch of us started out 50-60 years ago, we didn't have another archery choice to fall back on. We did it because that is what we wanted to do and we didn't agonize over not being good enough to do it.

Ron, just because we disagree with you doesn't make us short- sighted. I don't know what Michigan is like in archery season, but we are right behind you with number of bowhunters. Overall, we have more hunters than you....about 1,000,000 all kinds. I can get away easily from other hunters. Our public land around here is underhunted, matter of fact, and as I said our hunter numbers are down by over ten percent the past twenty years.

So if I am not in favor of a separate season, I am short-sighted. I don't see it that way at all. We are not special, we are just different, but we can fit in easily and have plenty of space to roam by ourselves. Sorry you are disappointed with me but life will still go on.

If you want to drastically increase trad bowhunter numbers, give them a special season...Ron says January, but I say put it in the heart of the rut.

What you big tent guys don't understand IMO, is that crossbows and compounds will spell the END of special bowhunting seasons. Why should there be a special season for weapons that can shoot 100 yards or more?

Y'all want to be lumped into a 'general' any weapons hunt? Well that's where this whole thing is headed IMO.

I don't want to hear the self-righteous rebuttal Kevin, but I have feeling it's coming anyway...lol.

George you use the words "we", "I", "our", "ourselves" but George it's not about US. I agree WE are not special but traditional bow hunting IS special. By short sighted I mean can't see beyond themselves and what they want. The focus should be not on we, I or our, it should be on the future of traditional hunting, and keeping it alive and well for future generations. Why is that so hard to understand?

I think you guys are looking at this from the wrong angle - there really can't be a separate 'season', as there's not enough time in the year to separate out archery, muzzleloader, rifle, plus additional sub-categories.

The issue I see is tag allocation - some of you guys living in the east may not relate, but out here in the west I think many will understand. For example, take the Henry Mountains unit in Utah ("Premium Limited Entry"). There's some big deer in this unit, and drawing an archery tag might take 15 years or more. I personally don't think this is fair to trad hunters, since the use of compounds, range finders, release aids, etc. greatly impacts the harvest rates. Tag allocations are based on deer population 'targets', so if the Utah DNR concludes that archers are allocated 20 bucks, and the success rate of 'archers' (including tech shooters) is 50%, then the DNR will allocate 40 tags. Well, I don't think that's fair to trad hunters, because our success rate will be much less (probably 10%?), and we will have a much lower impact to the resource.

I would like to see the various game agencies in the West allocate more tags in Limited Entry units for elk, deer, and antelope specifically for trad gear - let's face it, the trad crowd is simply not going to have the same impact on the resource as the tech shooters. Personally, I know one guy that killed his last mule deer at 104 yards (he's a tournament shooter), and my buddy's kid killed his last buck at 80 yards (he's 15), and I just got a text from a guy I know who killed a little 2-point in southern Utah at 67 yards. I, and most of you I'd guess, pass on shots beyond 30 yards. It's just not fair that trad hunters, who are limited in number, have to be thrown in with the majority tech shooters - the tech shooters will inevitably have much higher success rates than us. So I'd like to see additional tags for limited entry units go to trad gears guys.

Unfortunately, if they did institute this policy of trad gear tags, you'd get lots of people applying for the tags just to go hunting without waiting 20 years, and one week before they season they'd buy a recurve and some mis-matched arrows and start practicing once they get to camp. So, if they do have trad gear tags, I see no alternative to having some basic skills test - nothing too hard, just hard enough to weed out the guys who aren't archers but just wanted the tag. But on the other hand, a guy who's inept with a recurve probably won't even wound a deer much less kill one... anyway, something to think about.

Oh George you can ignore Kevin (aka cut and paste Kevin) on the antler thing. He's against APR and he's all for "its brown its down". Most of us that are for APR just want to see what will happen. So far after a year I still have a bunch of spikes and forks on my cameras and one dinky 8. We've been killing spikes and forks forever in northern MI and maybe we killed off the genes to grow 8 points in 2 1/2 years. I also think a lot of illegal bucks were killed last year, dragged into the garage and ground into burger untagged just like they have been doing forever. Not sure were it will go in the next 5 years but I'm good either way. At least we gave it a shot. Kevin (and Ron) should just be happy Hammer hasn't jumped in or this thread would never end.

And Ron is right that the peak of trad is fading. It's evident at the GLI and TBH in Grayling and the lack of venders. Venders are down because the attendance has dropped. Compton was slower this year then last also. So yeah it's fading but maybe it was just a fad for a lot of guys. Romance of hunting old style. Same thing happened with side by side small bore shotguns 20 years ago. Guys read a few books or magazines and it sparks a flame. Maybe the flame burns out after a short time?

I'm just into doing it my way and letting guys do it their way. I'm not a big tent guy in the sense that we all are one. We are not and it's ok. I see it a lot, guys from one end of the bowhunting spectrum to the other. Guys that bring a rifle to camp as their guarantee of a kill to guys with the bow they made out a twig. Who's right and who's wrong? I just leave them be.

Me, I'm going to go hunting with my longbow, gonna kill stuff and not worry about the other guy. Deer in 30 more days. Pig hunting in Georgia in January. Bear hunting in BC in June. Late August/September 2015 (I'm working on it) and then deer again in Northern MI. I'm pretty happy with the current "trad" way.

Kevin, again your post about "bone on the head" is totally irreverent to the subject of this thread. You didn't answer my question about why you're opposed to a special season..do you have a real reason?"

Ron, most of the posts here seem to be related to Midwest and eastern states hunting. In the West most of the states are on the draw system. I suggest states with draw hunts give one bonus point to hunters who opt for recurve/longbow.

This slightly encourages trad. bowhunting but eventually the influence might be significant. Yes, it is a slight disadvantage to hunters not using a recurve/longbow but on the other hand quality of hunting would be expected to slightly increase so I think it's a win-win for all.

This is a very simple thing to accomplish, the tag you get in the mail if you draw says recurve/longbow. If you get caught using something else, you run the risk of a hunting violation so I suspect people who not switch over to a compound after they draw a tag.

It isn't. I just don't see late season, spooky deer, much less deer to hunt, frigid weather, and low success as an effective way of promoting traditional archery to anyone but traditional archers. I could be wrong but, people decide for themselves what suits them best. I've been back to traditional hunting for 4 years. It's bigger now than in anytime of my 40 year life. I'd summarize it is due to people like you Ron, not special late seasons. In other words, the only hunters your going to get out at that time are already traditionally hunting. Maybe I'm wrong.

Once again, not being disrespectful, just stating my opinion. God Bless

The surge in Samick bows may have been from the couple of movies recently that showed archery being done. It too may fade into the sunset unless someone in their life keeps the archery fire stoked but think it was a fad and cool only.

Kevin, thanks for letting me know that traditional archery isn't special to you. I had already guessed as much. Be careful you don't fall off that fence. :>/

Fall off the fence Who put it up? Why is there one. Howard hill crossed it he shoot the most advanced equipment of his time wonder what he would shoot today. And Fred bear crossed by making and selling the compound. He didnt shoot one but had no problem selling them these are are archery heroes. I chose to shoot both. Trad and the dreaded wheel bow. Yes a season would be great but I dont see it promoting trad. Archery. I see it deviding us witch is not good and comparing flintlock is not the same its or heritage and what this country was founded with. Not the so called traditional bow. Thy were not even around then it would of been primative bows.

The real reason more people don't shoot trad. bows is the accuracy issue. It's too hard for most people to be as accurate as they would like to be.

Try this thought experiment. imagine you could put all your arrows on the NFAA 300 round in the 4 ring or better even with very little practice even with a hunting weight bow even with a short bow. Why would you even consider using a compound or &^% bow unless you wanted to do long distance bowhunting or had injury, etc.?

That's it, plain and simple.

KPC, technology has it's positives, but also negatives esp. with regard to hunting.

Or fishing. I don't see that many people complaining that certain areas are fly fishing only...just sayin'...

OY VEY...and I'm not even Jewish... :):):)

Hey Ron,,I get it,,,P-R-O-M-O-T-I-O-N,,getting people into it,Jeez,January is THE END of hunting season, so it's NOT about being special,,just showing an alternative,having an avenue to particiapate, to maybe learn the history of archery which,IMO would be a great way to get more folks involved with conventional equipment. I wish TBM/PA magazines had their own show,,and would devote half of it the History of archery. You're right about direction of hunting and it's funny how some who don't get what you trying to say are some the first to complain about what's being shown/celebrated on most all of the hunting shows.

I believe that the UP, should be separated from the lower, and be called the State of Superior, and Ron LaClair, should be its govenor,,,,,,,,

Good posts Ron,,,,,

Kevin uses worms in a coffee can for trout.

I use to put my worms in a tin Prince Albert can, it fit nicely in the back pocket. I cut my fish pole in the woods and used that green line that you could buy in the hardware. I Carried my brook trout on a stick with a fork at the bottom. That's part of my traditional roots. :>)

My primary concern with such a season would be the weapons-focused nature of it. Muzzleloader guys of old know what I mean. When the blackpowder people saw the potential for special consideration, Hatchet Jack's Hawken rifle began wearing a scope and spitting out sabot-like rounds. Meanwhile, the in-line ML was being developed and a new generation of blackpowder hunters was born. Their weapons met the technical requirements, but their approaches and attitudes were far removed from the men who once carried a flinter, leather possibles pouch and a powder horn. Today the ML group is essentially the centerfire rifle or shotgun group with the only thing different being the weapon. The unintended effect of a special ML season was the development of something far removed from most people's imagination. Sound familiar?

The same thing happened eventually when special archery seasons (which were of course trad-only in the 1960s) attracted the attention of hunters and manufacturers looking to expand their respective opportunities. The gadget revolution started...the compound bow was born...the modern crossbow reinvented...and here we are today coming full circle. So a special trad-only season...how would you regulate it to keep it completely traditional? Can you keep it totally traditional, or will the ever-present technocrats begin refining and redefining the limits of what is permissible? Machined metal risers, carbon limbs and shafts, sights and releases, scopes, rangefinders, feeders and food plots, wireless trail-cams? It is not in the nature of most humans to be regressive and self-limiting.

I get the ideology behind traditional seasons. The problem is that you and I can't be sure that the ideology doesn't become lost, ignored and totally secondary to those who would simply see an opportunity to gratify themselves.

I really hate to wade into this mess, but I keep seeing a comment that strikes me as a little misleading. The talk of trad shoot attendance being down as an indicator of trad decline. Trad archery is huge compared to 15-20 years ago.

I believe the apparent decline isn't a decline in participation as much as it is a product of expansion. 15-20 years ago if you found a trad shoot once a month that was huge. Now there are two every weekend. Attendance is down becasue there is so much opportunity. You don't have to wait or search for a shoot. The odds are high that there is one nearby every week.

As for the OP. I understand the desire for season and Ron's point of promotion, but where will it stop? A new ML season for cap and ball and flint locks? Then a lever gun season, then a primitive bow season becasue the modern recurves and longbows are leaving them out. Then we split modern firearms into handgun and long gun. Then, then, then.....

Add the flip side. As Fred Bear advertised, be a two season hunter. If special seasons are made and then the almighty dollar gets involved and a special license is required for each special season you may likely see the "just to kill" crowd packing each season.

You need to look closely at the intended and unintended consequences before you push too hard and get what you think you want.

I agree that there is no chance of that happening. it's actually going the other direction with crossbows. I have adapted my approach to benefit form the compound hunters in my area. When you see a stand or a compound hunter in a tree(100% of the time), They are usually on an active trail,mostly just at dawn and dusk.......those trails have a beginning and an end. Being a still hunter, I hunt all day and like to work multiple areas.This helps me narrow down where to go and has actually improved my success over the years.They never see me. The only way they know I am has been the crows on my gutpile.

I didn't bring it up but since it was mentioned, it might be a good idea to include traditional muzzleloaders, sidelock flintlocks and caplock guns into the traditional season. When the special muzzleloading season was introduced in Michigan it was intended to create an atmosphere of old time primitive hunting. At the time there were no rules except that the gun had to be loaded from the muzzle. There was a rule to use only patched round ball in the southern shotgun zone but that law was changed when the inline guns came into being.

As for the parameters of the traditional season I think it should be simply longbows and recurves, no compounds or crossbows. (they did have machined aluminum risers in the 50's and 60's)

Muzzleloaders to be sidelock flintlock or caplock, no scopes and loaded with roundball. Pa. has had a flintlock only season for a long time and it works very well. The regulations would have to be worked out with the DNR but in the end I'm sure it could be safe guarded to prevent encroachments from those that would undermine the intent.

As for the what if this happened if we did this, you could also say, what if it didn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdXQK-Z1JvA

For those who don't understand why something along these lines won't work, keep in mind that other than below some dams, the most popular waters on trout streams are typically fly fishing only/artificial lure only sections. Without fly only sections, fly fishing popularity would be a shadow of itself. It's the fly only sections/rules that have allowed fly fishing to become so popular.

Another example to watch is, Michigan recently legalized "straight walled/cowboy calibers" in the "shotgun zone". I'm willing to bet that within 10 years, a lot of hunters will find interest in the lever guns that shoot those calibers and that's a great thing. Without that regulation change, based on weapon, nobody in southern Michigan would be using them for deer hunting. And after seeing the growth in popularity, if the Michigan legislature proposed allowing an extra week in January for those straight wall calibers for unused antlerless tags, I think that would be a great thing too.

We hunters should want to expand opportunity dates. Ironically, it's usually anti's who don't want extra season dates. Think about that. It was lack of some hunter support that cost Michigan a dove season. When that issue was going on, I was shocked how many Michigan hunters said "we already have small game and duck season, why do we need a dove season?" Well, that thinking ended up being a big loser for us.

And at this point we're full-circle back to "Primitive Weapons Season". In my book, this would have a greater chance of flying than a traditional archery exclusive season. They key would be defining "primitive weapon" and holding that line...something nobody has ever been able to do for the long term.

I've long advocated for more opportunities to be in the field, especially for those who place self-imposed restrictions on themselves by using limited range weapons, whether bows or muzzleloaded rifles.

Problem is that the lethality of modern inline muzzleloaders, compounds and crossbows is such that wildlife managers consider these weapons to have a significant impact on game populations. Therefore, season lengths are shortened so avoid overharvest.

I wouldn't mind having a longer traditional season shared with sidelock muzzle loaders.

Just when the small game hunters finally get the woods to themselves, along come all the trad deer hunters. How many trad hunters will be happy to have the deer they are about to shoot scared away by someone's rabbit dog? Or if they have a deer down and are waiting to go after it, along comes fido and maybe chases it away? As long as the trad folks are happy, who cares what any other hunters may think of the situation?

It's obvious to me that there are some people on this forum that just like to argue. They revel in being obstinate, regardless of the subject matter. I'm not pointing fingers but past history of some prove my point.

In the end the naysayers won't matter when the final decision is made by the Commissioners and the DNR. They are the ones that will lay out the rules, not me or not you.

First, push the compounds and x-bows into the muzzleloader season where THEY belong, then push the in-line/scoped/sabot non-traditional 'muzzleloaders' into the rifle season where THEY belong. Problem solved!

buster, small game season starts in September as does bear season, upland bird hunting overlaps the October bow season. The same with rabbit hunters who have to contend with gun deer hunters. It's been that way for years and doesn't seem to be a problem.

Utah already has certain big game units that are draw-only for any legal weapon. Everyone has to wear flo-orange, and of course, the animals are going to be pretty spooky with a lot of people out in the woods.

Having a long season for those willing to limit themselves with more primitive weapons would be a great way to keep the hunting tradition alive.

Held early, I doubt it would have a detrimental effect on success rates of later rifle/any weapon seasons.

Ron, I have never seen very many small game hunters, if any, around my neck of the woods during gun deer season. A lot of us got our first gun at Christmas, when we were kids. Then we had to the end of February to hunt various small game. We went from a 14 day archery season when I started in 1962 to a 54 day season, currently in effect.

With the down turn in the economy in the last 5 or 6 years, people are lucky to have a job just to make ends meet. A lot of us on here have retired or lost our jobs in that time period. It costs so much to attend the big shoots where you have to travel a long distance, you just have to pick and choose which ones you can afford to attend.

I hear you Earl, some have it worse than others. We can only hope things get better down the road. Thank God we can still hunt.

"Having a long season for those willing to limit themselves with more primitive weapons would be a great way to keep the hunting tradition alive.

Held early, I doubt it would have a detrimental effect on success rates of later rifle/any weapon seasons. "

And that's where bow season began... EXACTLY where it began, in most cases. But at the risk of repeating myself, the PROBLEM is that the wildlife managers implemented archery and many (pre-inline) ML seasons to manage HUNTER numbers, rather than herd size, and now - because of unforeseen technological advances, ballooning herds and shrinking gun-huntable land - the system is upside-down.

I DO like the idea, but JMO, the idea of a "trad-only" season (or season segment) is a total non-starter in any state (or any part of a state) where herd reduction is a priority. I once mentioned to the senior CT deer manager that I thought it was unfortunate that muzzleloaders are not permitted during our shotgun/rifle season, and he said that he would NOT support including them, because he figured he could get more deer killed if everybody had a repeater.

Again, I like the IDEA of a tradgear season, but I don;t think the deer managers will bite on it if they believe it runs contrary to their objectives, and frankly, the unintended consequences here could get real ugly, even by just by what some would consider merely righting a wrong...

It might not work where herd reduction is the goal, but my concern is that without more time available to spend actually hunting, people, especially the younger ones, will take up something else--computer games, mall-crawling, etc... They are already doing that. It's hard to get excited about an activity that you only get to participate in a few days a year.

It turns into a vicious cycle with fewer hunters comes less revenue. Then game managers start allowing any and all weapons to be used to keep revenues and harvests up and game populations stable. And with more efficient weapons and higher success rates, long seasons are not needed to achieve harvest targets. So people then turn to more gadgets and motorized vehicles to maximize the potential to kill an animal in the short time made available.

As that trend progresses, we all lose the opportunity to spend time in the field either hunting, ourselves, or teaching it to the youngsters. Fewer hunters means less concern expressed for protecting the resource and the tradition of hunting. But maybe all this is just my opinion.

While wearing a plaid shirt (or any shirt!) and carrying my longbow, even shooting it, I can walk right thru a campground of ordinary people and kids and no one will run away or look at me suspiciously as they will if I was in full camo carrying a compound.

Just the way it is. So what does it really mean? Simply that the public at large is more on our side, I'd say...

You got a be kidding me CAMO scares people in camp grounds.That's a first

Man would the gas stations sell tons more bait if there was a January season too. And what a slaughter, dump a pile of beets in the swamp and the deer will be standing in line waiting for dinner. Fawns, doe and scab headed worn out bucks. And everyone in Michigan knows that's how that hunting would happen. Baiting is "trad" so...Dump bait in the deer yards and sit back for some shooting.

If a deer is still standing come January, he/she wins. Let them be so they can worry coyotes and finding enough food to make it til spring

bigdog, pls. read my post again I was saying camo and compounds scare people whereas trad. doesn't.

Nothing "elite" about wanting to have longer seasons. I think it is obvious that it likely takes several encounters to get within 25-30 yards of an animal and then make a successful shot. With more sophisticated equipment, you may only need one encounter within your effective range to end the hunt with a successful shot.

That's makes no sense Backcountry. That's like saying your kid isn't very good at hitting a baseball so he/she should get 4 strikes instead of 3. its simple, get better.

What I'm saying is that it usually takes several stalks and good luck to get in close enough to even get a shot. Most stalks end up as busts. Success with trad gear takes time.

And that is why we do it. When you make it all come together it's that much better. I'm not handicapped in any way by shooting a longbow since I know no other way.

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, just trying to inject a little humor into this thread. Everyone probably has someone in mind for this and I'm sure more than one of you are thinking of me ... :>)

Just remember someone's watching you.

Killinstuff by that line of thinking archery season makes no sense at all. Why get a longer season than guns or even a different season. Why not just get better and hunt the same season as them.

We have a flintlock season in Penna., no in lines or percussion muzzle loaders allowed. You are allowed all types of bows but the woods are empty of hunters, you'll be lucky to see one other hunter. It comes in after Christmas and lasts a couple of weeks. I know a lot of hunters who save their deer tags for Muzzle loader season and they have a lot of fun. Most will tell you about the deer at twenty yards and their gun won't fire.lol

Will Tell, I learned about muzzle loaders not firing in bad weather from watching Walt Disney in 1958. "The Saga of Andy Burnett". I also read "The Long Rifle" by Stewart Edward White, the book the movie was based on, about the same time period.

Mines a 1 in 70 twist caplock, which has been around since about 1815. So it fires in any weather as long at ya cover the end of the barrel.

Didn't we have a traditional archery season at one time? Where did it go?

"To lengthen YOUR season, you must SHORTEN every body elses. Very elitist and aristocratist."

Not true. At all.

Some seasons could be combined for compatible weapons. I'd gladly hunt with the primitive muzzloader folks to gain some time later in the fall when it's cooler but before the animals are totally spooked out of their natural routines by the hordes in orange.

Try getting in bow range then.

Muzzleloader are a gun. Hunt in gun season! I always used my cap lock Hawken during the first gun season... to beat the coming orange hoards. Got a buck every year....usually opening morning! Our muzzleloader season is in Dec.....no thanks!

"Didn't we have a traditional archery season at one time? Where did it go?" Not that I'm aware of, at least not in Michigan. Since it's inception, it's always been an archery season, just like it is now.

KPC"

The long extended archery season came into being BEFORE the compound bow came out. Back when everyone shot recurves and longbows they gave bowhunters more time to hunt because they figured they needed it. ...but then you knew that didn't you Kevin :>/

Another case of technology not necessarily being a GOOD thing ! Never owned a compound.... never wanted one ,never needed one . I've gotten along just fine since 1958! Our long archery seasons were won with a hard long fight decades ago....for REAL archery equipment. Now thanks to technology... the seasons are getting shorter every year as they carve out another piece for some special interest group. We've lost 38 days of archery season here due to more gun seasons!

Then you've never been to Utah, Mike.

Its all about money, and the game departments would get none from a primitive only season, therefore, it will never happen. My primitive season starts sept 6, and runs through the middle of january. I hunt primitive during all the seasons, which im sure is allowed everywhere. the choice is you're's.

There are some units in Utah that are open to any weapon, but you have to draw a tag for that unit. Sometimes there a multiple hunts, for certain dates, in those units. That spreads out the number of hunters in those units during any one block of time.

Colorado has something similar with early, middle, and late season hunts. You have to pick the season when you want to hunt and apply for that particular hunt. You are offered second and third choices in case demand is particularly high for popular seasons or hunts.

There are sometimes left over tags for some hunts that can be purchased on a first come-first served basis. But you can't legally hunt with archery gear in seasons specifically established for muzzleloaders, for example.

Here in Pa...when compounds came out, everyone cried that they would kill too many deer and shorten the season...just the opposite....Pa actually extended the archery season two weeks into November to get closer to or during the rut...and in certain special regs areas.....two weeks before and two weeks after the archery season were added for doe....that means I can hunt from mid-September through the end of January....and in gun and muzzleloader seasons with my bow if I choose.I can hunt small game through February.....

Personally, I have never had a hunt ruined by a compound or crossbow, or for that matter, muzzleloader or rifle., and I hunt state game lands...in fact, I see and kill most deer when it is crowded and the other hunters go back to their vehicles for lunch...moving deer at midday....

I choose the weapon I want to hunt with....do I need a "traditional only" season....no....

Heck, most traditional forums have asked the question and can't even decide on what constitutes "traditional", no way a game commission could come up with a definition to please everyone...what next, Atalatl season, spear season, etc....?

KC, compounds did not simply evolve into the archery season. Rules had to be changed and compounds accepted. The same happened with inlines. Neither were even invented when the archery and blackpowder seasons came to be.

Similarly, clubs such as the P&Y had to create rules to accept machine shot trophies. When Glenn had his original idea, he did not know what a compound bow was.

The season was founded to includ recurves and longbows, traditional type bows. I was hunting during that period.

Sure why not. Trad only season's purpose is not to divide but grow interest. Ron, you said that that was quite incisive. Jawge

I brought this idea up on a few forums last year and got attacked!. LOL! ... People are gonna not like this but I am with ya'!!

Ron would we have to wear buckskins?

Yes, Fred Bear did sell "mechanical archery". We no longer need the term "traditional archery", lets get rid of it.

"Mechanical archery" is the use of machines and engineered machines, such as compounds and compound crossbows.

" Archery" is simply the use of a "zero let off" bow of the longbow and recurve type. "Traditional archery" is therefore dead, one either hunts "archery", or "mechanical archery".

Sawtooth... Like it or not, the term is going to stay as it is, because you have a vast majority of the public relating everything to archery as long as an arrow is involved. It's been ingrained and it's not getting changed despite whatever technical differences there may be. Traditional archery is the only distinction that exists that everyone understands. Even those who do not hunt.

Well then, there are two forms of archery, "traditional archery" and "mechanical archery". Makes more sense to me, thanks for pointing that out.

I think that is a spot on reference which can be used sawtooth. Might just start using that myself.

Back to the subject matter...

If you really want a traditional season then find a many like minded people, start a club and use the dues to lease the land that it takes to have a traditional area only hunting ground. Might kill two birds with one stone if you want to promote traditional archery as well.

"Arch" is the key to archery.

An arch is only curved. A multi-wheeled "bow" and a crossbow are really just portable catapults.

Gravity makes all projectiles an arch. :) Jawge

I just dont get the repulsion to a traditional season. There are (in some states) season separations for different firearms. Whats the difference?. My thinking is that if you had a separate season, that would attract more people to take a closer look at traditional archery, which many seem to want.

I like the idea of putting it in the rut because that leaves more bucks at the end of the day. Bucks that would have already bred the Doe before getting harvested out of the herd.

YES! What we need are more rules and regulations.

A Wi. DNR Whitetail Specialist once said," Once the bowhunters are seen killing enough deer they will be considered as a 'management tool' just as the gun season and the season may be changed or shorten to meet the management goals. It is the first time in modern deer season where a bowhunter cannot kill a doe, except a youth or disabled.

This if from the Missouri DNR. While the focus is firearms seasons, the similarity is that todays busy hunter is limited most by time to hunt. Offering more opportunity helps hunter recruitment and retention, as noted at the end.

Season and Portions – The timing of various portions of the firearms deer season are of great interest and debate among hunters. The November portion during the peak of the rut was established at a time when the goal was to minimize doe harvest and maximize buck harvest. Setting the firearms season to coincide with the rut was a good deer management strategy in the early years of deer management. Deer activity is high at that time so deer, especially bucks, are vulnerable to hunting. This was appropriate because we were most interested in protecting antlerless deer and did not care if we took a high proportion of the antlered bucks. Additionally, when the November portion was established many hunters were restricted to taking an antlered deer only and were not selective, shooting the first legal deer they encountered. They were satisfied because early to mid-rut deer hunting increased their chances of taking a deer. This season framework worked well given hunter interests and management objectives. A growing deer population throughout the 1980’s and 1990’s produced many modifications of our deer management objectives, shifting from a buck harvest emphasis to a doe harvest emphasis. In addition, deer hunter interests have changed. Hunters are becoming increasingly selective (Figure 1) and increasingly support management for adult bucks.

Furthermore, the current November portion timing results in the removal of bucks during the peak of the breeding period, is disruptive to the established dominance hierarchies, and, biologically, is not an ideal time to apply heavy buck harvest. These dominance hierarchies ensure that the most fit, but not necessarily largest, bucks do a disproportionate amount of the breeding. For example, the current timing means that only 42% of the breeding occurs prior to the November portion (Figure 2). A one-week later shift would mean that approximately 75% of the does would breed prior to opening of this portion of the deer season. A later season would maintain the dominance hierarchies so that less fit bucks have less of a chance to breed. Additionally, we know from historical changes in season timing that when the firearms season shifts from the earliest possible date (Nov 10), based on the current formula, to the latest date (Nov 16), that doe harvest increases slightly and buck harvest decreases slightly (Figure 3). Therefore, a one-week later shift to the firearms deer season would result in a slight increase in overall antlerless harvest and slight decrease buck harvest.

Furthermore, one of the often-cited reasons for not hunting more is limited time. Starting the November portion of the deer season one week later would also incorporate the Thanksgiving holiday. Historically, when the firearms season included Thanksgiving, there was an increase in the number of days hunted. During firearms seasons that included Thanksgiving (1977-79), the number of hunter trips (average = 1,068,999) was higher than in the three years preceding (average = 933,365) and the two following (average = 1,053,444). Therefore, by moving the season one week later it would provide additional opportunities for people who have a limited number of days to hunt. This may be helpful in our efforts to recruit youth and improve hunter retention.

"It is the first time in modern deer season where a bowhunter cannot kill a doe, except a youth or disabled."

Only in a few select counties, and for this you can thank the WDNR's many years of unlimited $2.00 doe tags and "kill everything that moves" management style for both gun and bow seasons.

KPC .. I am not for bringing in more chaff and what I said is that it would "which is what many seem to want". I don't want it because there is no proficiency testing involved (which I am all for) so don't get me wrong... I don't think this way but do accept that more people do than do not. That is what I was speaking to.

As far as effectiveness compared to modern bows... You have one heck of an uphill battle to convince anyone that a stick is as efficient as a compound or crossbow. Maybe as efficient at killing but not as efficient in getting that arrow to an animal over any given distance or getting that arrow to the animal before it moves over a greater distance. It isn't as effective in regard to the above situations and that is the bottom line and also why it is a draw to many.

Saying "In the right hands" is like saying "if the arrow is put in the right spot". It's annoying because it's an attempt to mask the truth and the bigger picture. If the dog hadn't stopped to crap it would have caught the rabbit. HA!

Come on!. Lets just be honest and stop all this foolishness ;)

KPC ... It seems we are on the same page. So much can be misconstrued via the written word. I like the Poll association :D

"However, managing a public resource by attempting to appease every special interest's wishes based on how they happen to enjoy doing things, or how they want to grow their specific group, is a recipe for disaster for the resource itself, not to mention a whole bunch of pissed off hunters."

We're appeasing you and your minority opinion. In Michigan, the old school brown it's down crowd is the special interest being appeased. Pot, meet kettle.

Ducks Unlimited and Trout Unlimited are both special interests who've done wonders to expand and protect their respective sports. There's a reason that traditional archery is a fringe niche, despite it's huge potential, and the above quote and people who still believe that is exactly why.

Disagree Mojostick. The special interest in MI is the APR crowd. Never existed and now it does...thanks in large part to sporthunters such as those who we all know, which are backed by the manufacturers who have a vested interest in horn hunting. Good example just targeted at the wrong guys.

Marshall,

Here's a timely read, again from the Missouri DNR. Not Michigan, but Missouri.

Note this line- In addition, deer hunter interests have changed. Hunters are becoming increasingly selective and increasingly support management for adult bucks."

Keep in mind, between 58% and 72% of Michigan hunters want to try a 4pt or 3pt APR for a trial period and over 80% surveyed were for trying a "no spike" rule. So, it's the vocal minority that's being appeased and kowtowed to.

From the Mo DNR- Season and Portions – The timing of various portions of the firearms deer season are of great interest and debate among hunters. The November portion during the peak of the rut was established at a time when the goal was to minimize doe harvest and maximize buck harvest. Setting the firearms season to coincide with the rut was a good deer management strategy in the early years of deer management. Deer activity is high at that time so deer, especially bucks, are vulnerable to hunting. This was appropriate because we were most interested in protecting antlerless deer and did not care if we took a high proportion of the antlered bucks. Additionally, when the November portion was established many hunters were restricted to taking an antlered deer only and were not selective, shooting the first legal deer they encountered. They were satisfied because early to mid-rut deer hunting increased their chances of taking a deer. This season framework worked well given hunter interests and management objectives.In addition, deer hunter interests have changed. Hunters are becoming increasingly selective (Figure 1) and increasingly support management for adult bucks.

A growing deer population throughout the 1980’s and 1990’s produced many modifications of our deer management objectives, shifting from a buck harvest emphasis to a doe harvest emphasis. Furthermore, the current November portion timing results in the removal of bucks during the peak of the breeding period, is disruptive to the established dominance hierarchies, and, biologically, is not an ideal time to apply heavy buck harvest. These dominance hierarchies ensure that the most fit, but not necessarily largest, bucks do a disproportionate amount of the breeding. For example, the current timing means that only 42% of the breeding occurs prior to the November portion (Figure 2). A one-week later shift would mean that approximately 75% of the does would breed prior to opening of this portion of the deer season. A later season would maintain the dominance hierarchies so that less fit bucks have less of a chance to breed.

Here are some of the strategies the National Shooting Sports Foundation and the International Hunter Education Association suggested for increasing hunter participation from those hunters who are already active and no longer at "apprentice stage". Note #6. Stare at #6. Soak in #6.

Recommended Strategies: 1. Provide opportunities to communicate with other hunters/shooters. 2. Encourage membership in sportsmen’s groups. 3. Recruit as hunter education instructors. 4. Recruit as mentors (promote the rewards of being a mentor). 5. Maintain or increase availability of game, hunting opportunities, etc. 6. Promote alternative hunting opportunities.

Mojostick...

This is a recent phenomena when looked at over the course of time. Attitudes change and allow change but that change only works for those who are recently like minded. Most things are found to be wrong well after being adopted. This goes for ways of thinking most of all and application of theory most thereafter. The chances of being wrong are greater than not when changing direction from what has been the norm before regulation.

But if you are wishing to embrace almost certain failure due solely to what your heart tells you then you must also allow that for others who feel strongly of other things such as primitive only seasons or area's. ;)

I feel that such regulation would bring more people into the fray (for good or bad) based on historical evidence. The crossbow brought more and the compound brought more. You may argue that it is because these implements require no skill to use and while I would agree that this is much to do with it, I also would not that there are those among these groups who would have overcome just for the additional opportunity afforded them.

So unless you are against bringing in more people (which I am a bit nervous about) there is no sound argument (that I am aware of) against this being a sound tool for achieving that end. This is no different than what was done in the very first archery season. It is no different than what was done during the first black powder season (to my knowledge) so why is it now a bad thing?.

In a time when we are encouraged to celebrate our differences and even parade those differences in public, it seems almost odd to not seek to separate while seeking inclusion. Not saying I am a backer of the current political correctness mindset but it is what it is (as you have pointed out in other area's) and therefore this suggestion is nothing more than showing a willingness to adapt to our current culture climate.

:)

I owned a fishing store near a "flies only" stretch of water for nearly 15 years. I can assure you "special" regulations can greatly increase participation and interest. Fly fishing interest is very strong. Interest in adding more "fly water" is strong. What's crashed is worm dunking interest and participation, for trout. As with deer hunting, what people want out of hunting and fishing is vastly different than it was in the 1950's and 60's.

Notice two of the folks who have long term experience in the sporting good business and understand it, Ron L and myself, are telling some naysayers what a looming problem is and are offering a suggestion of increasing hunter opportunity and growing the sport we all love. Think about that.

Anyhow, I've said my peace and I'll leave it at that. There's nothing to add if people aren't open to considering solutions. Have a nice rest of the weekend!

You have a good weekend too Mojostick. :)

In Pennsylvania it would be as simple as adding an extra week at the end on the regular archery season. It would be no different then the primitive muzzleloader (flintlock) season after the regular firearms season. I am not a muzzleloader hunter, but I would be against Pennsylvania legalizing modern muzzleloaders in the primitive season. An extra week of traditional only bows would also give an incentive to those die hard bow hunters that want an extra week of hunting during November to try shooting traditional.

As far as the crossbow effecting my hunting, it has not as of yet. However, since the addition of the crossbow to the archery season, there is now a push at least in this area and I've heard about it in other areas to put the general firearms season before the archery season every other year. This is because the firearm hunters feel that they are now (because of the addition of the crossbow), at a disadvantage as far as getting an opportunity to harvest trophy bucks. If that would occur that would definitely effect my hunting with a bow.

So glad I dont live in PA!.

I remember this argument going on in Maine back when the compound first came out. People just didnt want it in the archery season. Some said it should be allowed but in it's own season. Nothing has changed over the years. As each new piece of equipment gets it's day, people against it either dont want it or want it in it's own season but dont want to give up a part of their season to accommodate it.

I look at hunting as a management tool and in area's where there is no excess of deer to be had, maybe a primitive season is what would work to allow more people to hunt without decimating the population of deer. If the area is that depleted then perhaps taking a week from the most effective weapon and giving it to a lesser weapon is a good idea.

In area's with liberal deer take, what is an extra week on the season?. How could it be a negative when the management seeks to curtail growth?.

I understand and agree that person wanting to use a stick can do so (in most instances) whenever they want to. I am not promoting a traditional archery season for that reason. I am promoting the idea because it will increase awareness and participation, as has happened with every other special weapon. The compound was a special weapon at one time. There is one good example right there...for people who dont think it will work this way.

I promote this idea because it is beneficial to the whole as well as the individual.

More time in the woods without having a significant impact on the deer population--I just don't see how that could be detrimental to anything. But I'm sure we'll hear from those who think so.

Quote" Backcountry: More time in the woods without having a significant impact on the deer population--I just don't see how that could be detrimental to anything. But I'm sure we'll hear from those who think so. ______

Dont worry about that!. You will hear from someone who says in one breath that they limit their shots to 15 yards and then they will tell you that they take as many deer with a stick as do bowhunters with compounds who are keeping it inside of 40 yards. HAHAHAHA! Oh my!!. You are so right!

Marshal said, "I understand and agree that person wanting to use a stick can do so (in most instances) whenever they want to. I am not promoting a traditional archery season for that reason. I am promoting the idea because it will increase awareness and participation, as has happened with every other special weapon. I promote this idea because it is beneficial to the whole as well as the individual."

Exactly!... It's hard to understand why some can't see the benefits. One other point, I wouldn't want a special season to take away from any existing season. It could even be a short two day season on private land only like the early season anterless season Michigan has had. It really doesn't matter to me when or how long it would be, just as long as it gives traditional hunting recognition as a viable option. Interest and growth will follow and THAT is the reason I am advocating it.

Ron, are you also in favor of proficiency testing, as is Marshall?

"What I don't think you understand is the way it will be perceived by the majority of hunters. Their perception is their reality, and they will not see it as benign or as altruistic as you so."

The majority of hunters? You're speculating again

"That doesn't even take into account what the unintended consequences could be of such a season if passed.

It's just as hard for some to understand why others can't see the potential landmines."

I think your being pessimistic.

When I wanted to have a National Longbow Invitational back in the early 1980's there were many people like you that thought it would be divisive and wouldn't be a good idea. Thirty years later The Great Lakes Longbow Invitational still draws hundreds of people from across the Nation and Canada.

When I first met Glenn St Charles many years ago at a PBS banquet he told me he had an idea for a traditional archery record keeping organization and he ask me my opinion. I told him I thought it was a good idea. Eventually that came about through the Comptom Traditional Bow Hunters. Glenn as you know was also the founder of the Pope and Young Club which at the time it was started was before compounds. Glenn's reason for the P&Y club was to show that the (traditional) bow and arrow was an efficient weapon. After the compound bow kills infiltrated into the P&Y he knew it was time for a new traditional organization

I know that many people don't like the idea of record keeping but like it or not it has done a lot for bow hunting over the years.

Glenn was a visionary, a man who wasn't satisfied with how things were. He was always looking ahead to improve the status of traditional bowhunting. I had many long discussions with Glenn over the years and I know if he were alive today he would think a traditional season was a great idea.

KPC, it appears to me that you and a few others are the ones planting those landmines!

I maybe have a different reason than Ron for supporting a traditional bowhunt, but I don't see any harm in having more time in the outdoors learning, practicing and passing on the skills that used to be necessary to be a successful bowhunter.

Here's a picture from that meeting at the PBS banquet

Buster ... Nobody but a limited bunch of crazies like me wants proficiency testing. Never going to happen nationally or state wide. Not sure why you are even bring this up unless you just want to start something. I suspect this is just the reason you mentioned it and tried to tie one man to another via one agreement that they shared. Thats really bottom of the barrel and I would have also ignored that question, to if it were posed to me in such a way. As I have said before ... My weakness is reacting to even the dumbest things said.... or implied. :( Carry on.

I would love a traditional season... but like GF said above it just doesn't seem feasible.

Didn't Idaho float this idea a decade or so ago for certain zones?

Possibly it could work in small areas that have low carrying capacity that might be otherwise closed? Perhaps areas that need limited access? In other words special situations. But in so many states it's a numbers game that could never work.

I wish it could though.

Marshall, I brought up the proficiency issue only because you have mentioned being in favor of it in more than one thread in the short time you have been on here.

Like the lady from California said: "You have to vote for it before you see what's in it".

New Jersey has a proficiency portion of their archery test its not a big deal, it's been in place for ever. When I took my test 34 years ago it was 3 out of 5 in the vitals of deer target @ 20 yards. I did it with a recurve as a 10 year old and so did a half dozen or so other 10 year olds who took the test with me.

It's never been controversial here. It was never meant to prevent people from getting a licence but more to prove you have put time in practicing. I've seen the instructors give kids a second chance if they were nervous and I saw an instructors move a kid a little closer who said he only shot 15 yards. So the instructors obviously have some discretion.

I have no problem with it.

K.... You make some good points if everything was as you paint the picture. The fact is that the analogy of the corvette has been put in place a number of times. Most recently, with the inclusion of a special muzzle loader season...be that awhile ago. Before that, with the inclusion of the Bow. The fair comparison would be to say that the crossbow (recently allowed in some states) was not singled out but included within an existing season. Having been included, crossbow sales have jumped dramatically since.

Using this fair comparison and looking at the results of this inclusion, what has been the positive an negative results?. That is the best way to look at this IMO.

We already know that the majority of bowhunters didn't want this, so there is a negative. We know that those against were persistent in their views that crossbows would cause more wounding due to the fact that crossbows would allow people to enter the woods without the necessity of practice or woodsmanship as it relates to bowhunting. However... In reality, the states that have long ago instituted crossbows have shown none of these ill effects and in states like Ohio, a crossbow is as common a hunting tool as is a gun. This goes to prove that the fears are unfounded but these truths don't keep people from fearing all the same.

You may be right that traditional bows would require more time to master and that is my one hesitation. Of course...If there were proficiency testing....This wouldn't be so much of an issue, now would it?. This last thing is what has me wanting a traditional season/area but hesitant to endorse it. I do believe that having such a season could bring a lot of good to the whole group but at the same time, without proficiency, it wont be a great benefit to anyone.

That being said... This is no different for modern vertical equipment, other than the failures due to equipment use are less since the ability required is less. Those that wound due to bad judgement will always wound due to bad judgement. A traditional bow isn't going to effect that particular outcome.

In the end, Ron is suggesting a way to highlight traditional and open the tent to groups who dont even know about traditional. You are suggesting that it could give us a black eye by inviting people who gravitate toward simplicity but must put forth effort to achieve the desired result.

You both have very good points. You have a pretty good reason to be concerned I would say. However... as I pointed out, many times the concerns have turned out to be unfounded.

KC ... Very good argument.

I will counter with my experience in a state that doesnt offer any advantage to bowhunters in general.

The vast populous of SC hunters cant believe there is even an archery season, and are still against it for the most part. Their common spoken view is that a bowhunter can hunt with a bow anytime he chooses to, so why exclude the gun hunters.

Go on some of these SC sites and you will find very little about bowhunting because bowhunters are a very minority. Why?. Because the season is so short and it is in the worst part of the year when it does occur.

When looking at the way things are for bowhunters in SC and why they are that way... I have to say that inclusiveness does not bring anything to the table for those who use more primitive weapons, when lumped into such a group or situation.

Now with this being an absolute fact.... This is why I side with Ron's thinking. To say that an independent season is not beneficial to any one group, one would also have to argue that any season should be open to any weapon because there is no benefit to anyone in having separation based on weapon type.

Had this been the fact back 70 years ago, Bowhunting would not exist today as we know it. Would it exist at all?...sure. Would that be better?...NO. Why?. Because we wouldn't have this site. We wouldn't have an awesome selection of bowyers to buy from. We wouldn't have an awesome selection of arrows to choose from. And on and on and on.

The fact that bowhunting was given it's own season and that only bows were allowed to be used in that season is what promoted and grew archery into what it is today. For better or worse, I would vote for it to happen again, just the way it went down back then.

And so, while you make an excellent argument against... I am still for. BUT ... I will keep an open mind as I continue to read on. You are an excellent advocate for your side my friend!.

Setting any season is automatically exclusive.

In NH, Sept 15 to beginning of Nov is archery only. Exclusive..archery only. Beginning of Nov into the middle of Nov ...front loaders only...Exclusive.

If there is a primitive season no one is excluded. Get a trad bow or primitive front loader and hunt.

Jawge

George is spot on. The only people who choose to not participate in many of the "special" seasons are those who actively wish to exclude themselves. For example, the firearms only hunters who "blame" bow hunters for ruining their "season" are those who willingly exclude themselves from bow hunting, especially where crossbows are legal.

It's the same with "fly only" trout streams. Virtually nobody is excluded from fly only water. Even Wal-Mart sells Eagle Claw fly rod combo's for like $40. The only fishermen who exclude themselves from fly waters are those who choose to do so. While they may not like fly fishing, nobody but themselves is stopping them from participating. The opportunity is open to all.

Well with the last reasoning, then a traditional only season should be introduced.

I have disagreed with Ron LaClair in the past. However, on this subject I feel he is spot on. A special season for us would give light to our rich history, and possibly attract other bowhunters to try for a late season anterless deer. I bet out of that group of new hunters, some may actually stick with it. I thought Ron was very clear in that he was not trying to segregate, be elitist, or any to the other negative bs that was thrown his way. A late season Jan hunt would not infringe on anyone else as we have no season in Jan anyways. Good job Ron in making your points clearly and professionally. I would support you in trying to make that endeavor a reality here in Michigan. We now have early season before bow season. Oct 1st was basically a holiday in my family. Now its muted because deer have been shot at with guns before the opener.

An early rifle season before the archery season?? That seems ridiculous! What's the rationale for that?

mikieg ... Yeah...If you could just spread them deer around for the rest of us, that would be great!.

Ron LaClair is right on with his comments.

I remember when the bowhunting organizations in PA first lobbied to get an additional two weeks, tacked on the end of the archery season. to get closer to hunting near the rut. Not just gun hunters, but alot of sportsmens' clubs fought it....it was alot of hard work by UBP and others to get that extension. It now goes into the second week of November....about a week or so before firearms season....meaning, especially on state lands, archery hunters get six, and in special regs areas eight weeks to hunt deer before firearms...with close to 300,000 archery stamps sold..that's alot of deer hunters inundating the public lands and altering deer mmovement and habits....before gun hunting....

Gun hunting in PA has a long "tradition".,almost a state holiday the monday after Thanksgiving..hunting camps, blaze orange, etc has been long standing and almost revered....so much that most schools are not in that Monday, due to lack of attendance....they get the same two weeks since way back....'

Many here who gun hunt do so because of a tradition fostered over many decades....yes, they can learn to shoot a bow....and hunt earlier, but many plan yearly vacations and hunting camps for those weeks.....they have little or no interest in archery...it's blaze orange, camp cooking, deer drives, kids going to camp with the adults for the first time....

As I have stated before....I can hunt with my bow(I choose a stickbow) from mid September through the end of January...AND, I can hunt with my bow during the gun season.....I am not excluded....we have a late primitive season which is flintlock and archery after Christmas.....that gives me about 18 weeks of bowhunting....

Archery season here according to PA Game Laws, allows me to hunt with compound, crossbow, stickbow.....which form I use is up to me....because I choose to hunt with stickbow should not entitle me to my own season...I have it...ARCHERY season....

It would be a tough sell with the game commission and other sports clubs to ask for more because I choose to hunt with a weapon that already has 18 weeks of available hunting, four more if I choose to hunt small game through February....with the only justification being to introduce more hunters to stickbows....

As KPC stated...I am not EXCLUDED from any season when hunting with a bow.....to ask for a special time set aside...well, I just don't agree....if a two day, or one week traditional only season was adopted....I sincerely doubt many would go out and buy a stickbow, dedicate the time necessary to get proficient...when in reality it would allow those that work full time an additional couple days of hunting....maybe I am naive....not all of us have unlimited time to hunt due to work and family obligations....nor do we have private land as suggested above, which is more exclusionary yet...

As stated before, hunting public land only here....I have never had a hunt ruined by a compound or crossbow hunter, or for that matter a gun or muzzleloader hunter...

There would have to be a more substantial argument other than introducing more hunters to traditional for a game agency to accept that....and then how do they decide what is traditional equipment, heck, trad forums can't even reach a consensus!

You can't justify it by saying it would thin the herd more, then turn around and state it would not affect the kill substantially....what is it, one or the other......???

"I have never had a hunt ruined by a compound or crossbow hunter, or for that matter a gun or muzzleloader hunter..."

Lee,

WOW...I think you are the luckiest man on the earth.

My wife had a permit to hunt a public park last season that only allowed three hunters on 97 acres...And 97 acres sounds bigger than it really is because most of it is trails that are "Safety Zone" off limits to hunting.

Two of the 3 hunters were scoped crossbow hunters who literally killed deer at distances from one end of the property to the other. Day 1 they shot 5 deer. The numbers are not much of a concern, but imagine the commotion on a tiny piece of land killing 5 deer and at distances of 80 yards when the furthest away you can get from one another is only about 150/200 yards.

My wife wouldn't go back. Would you blame her after you watched watched a deer 50 yards in front of you shot from someone about 130 yards away by a guy with a scoped, trigger thingamajiggy that is resting on tripod?

Most of our hunting areas here in NJ are small pieces of land

I won't even begin to get into gun hunters who believe it is ok drive/push private property to their property as long as they don't have a gun on them...

I have had entire weeks ruined by other hunters not only in New Jersey but Pennyslvania as well...You all in PA are some of the worst road hunters in the country.

Thanks for the support John, you and I have had differences of opinion a time or two in the past but I'm glad we're together on this one.

There are some that will never be convinced of the benefit of a special season. They have closed their mind to the idea so any reasoning goes in one ear and out the other...:>}

How about AREAS instead of just seasons for a start? They could be easier to establish in the immediate future.Examples such as State Parks,GMA's,etc.Public land areas that have been over hunted or areas where game populations are low do to overuse. It would at least be a beginning to what could lead to special seasons. I think it would be easier to gather support if the above issues are taken into consideration to set aside such areas.

Jim,

I imagine those things would ruin a hunt fast. Stuff like that is why I try to avoid public land around here. The last time I tried to go dove hunting I got peppered twice and watched a group of “people” shoot Gatorade bottles in the fields. Unfortunately, some of the worse displays of sportsmanship I’ve seen afield came not from people with guns, crossbows or compounds, but stickbows. Some of it outright illegal, including hunter harassment, hunting animals out of season or in areas closed to hunting, trespassing etc. I learned a long time ago that the weapon in a person’s hand (or their membership in an organization) isn’t an indication of their ethics. What’s that old expression? Some of the biggest sinners I’ve met preached the loudest on Sunday.

Steve in my opinion it wouldn't matter how it was set up. Specific areas would be a good start. It would up the DNR when, how or even IF a special season could be done.

Special area's do seem to be the most practical. Start at the corners and work inward ;)

It would provide a quality experience for those willing to put some limits on themselves and hunt those areas if created,especially so for those who are not blessed with access to private land.

JRW would you be for setting aside some public areas for "Trad" or not?Ethics or lack of is not the issue in this topic.Thats another topic for another time or should say thread.

SteveD,

Actually, ethics and sportsmanship have both been brought up previously in this discussion. To your query, without an actual proposal in front of me there's no way I could answer that question, but I have yet to see any need for it in either IL or WI, which are the two states where I hunt.

JRW, Do you hunt PRIMARILY public land for bowhunting? I hunt public and do see a need to set aside some areas. In regards to the ethics discussion,I'm just trying to keep on the subject discussed as posted.

I hunt both public and private. Please explain the need you see. Thanks.

The early doe season which starts the weekend before bow I believe,, doesn't cause enough of an uproar to get hunters fighting amongst our selves, so I doubt that a season set up, like Ron detailed would cause any heartburn. We are talking about a season in Jan, for antlerless deer. No one else would be affected as Jan ends the season in MI anyways. I think what Ron is proposing would bring light to Trad or Stick hunting in a very positive manner. I know our MI outdoor shows would showcase it. The way Ron worded it, and proposed it, I cannot see how others could accuse him of elitism or trying to separate folks in a negative manner. Hey, if it went to the crapper after the first few seasons, take a look at changing it.

Bowhunting in MI owes it's rich history to the pioneers. Laclair has been a part of that rich history. Why not listen to the guy without hurling insults his way. Can we not focus on a part of our roots and beginnings in a short, late season hunt? It would not hurt a thing. No big tent would be destroyed or pulled up by it's straining stakes. I am sure Ron would not propose a program which would damage bowhunting in anyway, for any group, in MI.