Under the category of "The More I Learn The Less I Know", I have not read of this before.

I have reported in the past that all my "shooters" use the same arrow spine. Technically yes. With tweaks to brace and strikeplate position, I CAN get all the bows (ranging from #44 to #52) to shoot the same spined arrows.

But uber-tuned to the best (quietest, vibration dampened release) with me in good form, and they exhibit small variations...small but noticeable. So each now has a "best" set of arrows with some interchangeability. Ok.

BUT I still get sight picture elevation (gapstinctive) differences. So I've been adjusting nock and shelf height to bring the bows to the same trajectory. Better, but there is still roughly a foot high-low difference with like weight but different length arrows around 30 yards.

Next, I have figured I'm some of the problem and am paying special attention to whether my anchor is higher or lower. Factoring that in as well as a double nock set to prevent nock slippage shows only a little difference.

Within reason, the elevation change has little to do with shorter range trajectory, and please refrain from the usual gap vs. instinctive BS. We all aim/gap. Just some of us are so practiced and quick at it that we do so on auto-pilot with the brain doing it without conscious thought, and we call it instinctive.

Nope, the issue seems to be related to arrow length. As my arrows get longer, my shots hit lower. I "think" its related if not the major reason.

If I see X amount of shaft length on a shorter arrow but hold the longer arrow at the same elevation angle, I see MORE of the longer shaft. What I am wondering, is if my ingrained sight picture (whether I'm thinking about it OR the brain is on auto-pilot) lowers the arrow angle of the longer shaft to look the same as the sight view with the shorter arrow with the result of a lower hit.

Does this make sense?

R.

Yes, it does make sense. I for sure don't know how to say this, but the length of the arrow does matter. Kind of like raising a fixed sight pin up and down. I think I said it right. My gap, or sight picture is slightly different depending on arrow length.

No need for anyone to jump on me either, because I don't know how to make it any clearer. Just makes a difference in my shooting too.

Visually you are shooting the same picture for a given distance. If your arrow is longer the tip would be closer to your intended point of aim and you are likely adjusting subconsciously so it isn't so close. Results in lower hits.

The test is to shoot the different setups to see what your actual point on distances are. The longer arrows should be lower (within reason). May not be much but a five yard difference in PO will change the sight picture quite a bit...we'd that's assuming the arrows are flying at the same speed.

Confused. Are you shooting different length arrows out of the SAME BOW (you refer to all you various weight bows) or out of various bows?

VARYING ARROW LENGTHS OUT OF THE SAME BOW: Not only the longer arrow will result in a lower hit if you are subconsciously using the tip as reference, but the longer arrow will obviously weight a little more, so will have greater trajectory at distance than the shorter arrow (in reference to high and low hits).

VARYING ARROW LENGTHS OUT OF DIFFERENT BOWS: But if you are shooting arrows out of different bows, I find that each bow can vary to high and low because of the bow itself, and how the arrow comes off it. Speed makes a difference to elevation and power curve as well, so with varying bows, it's just not the arrow length.

Rick, you are thinking way too much this late in the year. I find a clear mind negates most other things that tend to interrupt a good arrow flingin. Maybe a nice glass of wine, or a good cold beer will get those nasty thought out of your punkin' head. 8^)))

George first, Maybe it WAS the beer. Between the "be the arrow" school and the "draw force curve" groupies is a middle ground called...ready? Wait for it...

S. O. F. School of Fuggedaboudit. In this class, we figure out problems, then we are able to Fuggedaboudit and go all "Zen" if we so choose.

In all seriousness, HighV has given me a possible solution to my problem of why different bows, otherwise near alike, shoot to differing elevations (and confirmed by the other guys). Since I have a buncha arrah's that can be made to shoot in each keeper, If I try longer ones in the higher shooters and shorter ones in the more near point on bows and bring the elevations in line, THAT would be especially nice.

R.

I prefer all my arrows the same length!!!

Longer or shorter arrows will change the sight picture, best to have them all the same length, and arrows for each bow weight and spine matched for the individual bow.

There is difficulty in getting different bows and arrow combos to fly with the same sight picture. You could have two bows shoot the same speed and arrow length but still end up with different sight pictures because of different launch angles. Nock height, tiller, grip pressure... all little things which can affect trajectory.

Speed is a very big game changer as well. I have two longbows, almost identical in draw weight. One is a string follow and one is a hybrid. I shoot both bows with the same spine arrow at the same length. One uses an 85 grain tip, one a 200 grain tip. Both bows have a 30 yard point on. The speed difference between the two is app. 35 fps. Now you'd think the trajectory wouldn't be very different but they are. If I shoot both bows and put the point dead center on the target starting at 5 yards and working back to 30 (my PO) I have a 12-14" difference in point of impact at the mid distances. My faster bow only rises 8" from 5-30 yards relative to my line of sight. The slower bow rises about 20" over the same distances. So if I shoot the same sight picture with the two I will have a lot of issues. That's a 35 fps difference but if you shoot two bows with similar weights (bow and arrow) and maybe have a smaller speed spread you still will experience trajectory variations that will cause high/low impacts.

That's one advantage to understanding the nuances of speed and trajectory as it relates to your aiming method. It makes switching things around easier to do and adjust for.

Rick, if nothing else, I envy you for having that much time to shoot. I am not smart enough to process all you posted, but I hope you get it worked out.

Ken. I didn't either but didn't want to admit it.

Rick is kinda like what George Brommers said about Erle Gardner. Paraphrasing now, "never argue with Erle Gardner, he will drive you right into the ground with his vocabulary, then kick dirt over you."

One time I tried to get into the technical side by reading, Hickman, Nagler and Klopsteg. It took me two months to get that out of my head and I haven't been the same sense. Those guys were brilliant and I was but a confused pre-schooler in their midst.

Hi George.

I didn't use all that many big words. (grin)

Anyway, while there are other factors involved, I've been doing some testing this AM. There is already evidence that shorter arrows on the lower shooters raises trajectory and longer ones on the high shooters brings the arrow down some.

Getting arrows for multiple bows to the same length, weight and perfect spine isn't going to be practical, but I should be able to get much closer and perhaps with rest and nock tweaks bring the bows in line.

More long range test, tweak, re-test will be needed. But I think its possible to get the same instincta-gap sight view across several different ones. We'll see.

Rick

Enjoy Rick. You know I'm kidding with you. You remind me of C.R. Learn who used to write for Bow and Arrow Magazine. He was always 'pekkerin with things to improve them or find a new use. I always looked forward to his offerings in the mag.

Rick, I'm having brain cramps wrapping my head around this one unless I'm misunderstanding your post. The same weight and spine arrows but different length should impact the target the same IF and I mean a big IF launched at the same angle.

I have done this same thing whereas I went to a longer arrow (30 .5" vs. 28") in a 35/55 shaft and they weigh the same, shoot the same, fly the same but my gaps are different.

Of course you realize your gap will be bigger with the shorter arrow than the longer arrow. If you are doing this instinctive than all bets are off since everyones' brain computers are different.

I shoot 1716's and 1816'a mixed in my quiver. The 1716's are an inch or more shorter than the 1816's and of course the 1816's are slightly heavier.

I don't notice the difference until I get out to 25 yards, and then the 1816's are a couple of inches lower, and by 35 they have almost 8 inches difference.

But the different length shafts don'e bother me too much.

I believe that it depends on how you gap. If you are actually using the point for gapping like 3 under shooter do or at point on, then it will matter.

There is another way to gap that I use. I use the shaft as the pointer. I imagine a laser down the shaft going to the target. Since the SHAFT is the criteria, then the shaft length is not as critical. For elevation, I know the what distance that the shaft pointed straight at the bull will impact right on. (This is exactly at 18 yards for my setup). So when considering elevation, I just raise the front of shaft a certain angle for the needed rise in arc. I can almost see the laser dotted line of the arrow to the target.

By way of explanation guys, I have written 3 books on vintage bows and I also do hobby restorations and repairs. Because it is a hobby business, affording sponsorship here isn't practical so I avoid self promotion.

But the point is in order to write about them, I have owned or played with hundreds of different bows.

This accumulation of bows went against my grain in that I simply can't "collect". If I don't use it, don't hang onto it. (George understands this well)

So I recently sold off all but my two vintage "favoritest" and an RER d/r longbow and came to own the last lefty RER Kevin TerMatt worked on before selling the business.

I'm a good but not great shot, and after all this time my focus has shifted to improving my accuracy with these 4 keepers.

I can shoot every one of these bows better/best for me. And now believe I can be more serious about 3D competition vs. just-for-fun shooting. But they don't shoot to the exact same ingrained sight picture's elevation even though the bows are similar in draw and arrow weights.

Tweaking anchor spot, nock position, brace and shelf height hasn't provided the answers, just hints.

Yes, I instinct-a-gap off the arrow tip, and the posters here are confirming a suspicion that the SAME sight view with a shorter arrow causes a longer arrow to be pointing lower and so hit lower.

My response was that a quick test is showing the truth of this. Now I have to (it'll be fun) come up with combinations of brace, shelf height, nock ring position and similar length/weight shafts to get the four bows shooting closer to the same elevation/ sight picture.

Then I can fuggedaboudit and just shoot away.

Rick

yes it makes sense ,,:)

Actually, you are on a valuable line of thinking. I have long shot a lot of bow and arrow combinations. By varying spine, point weight, and arrow length I have been able to get most all of my bows to shoot to the same trajectory, point-on distance and sight picture. The ones I took the most trouble with I was able to get to impact the same all the way out to 60 yards. So I could switch bows and shoot them well easily. This was with bow weight of about 35 to 50 pounds.

One I had to slow down a bit. I had several bows shooting the same except for my match longbow that carried at bit further. So I twisted up a fat low performance B-50 Dacron string for it and brought it back into the herd.

Arrow length affects spine, among other things, so generally for longer arrows I had to reduce point weight, and for shorter ones I increased it. I make my wooden arrows full length, and when they break it is generally just behind the point. I save them until I have a dozen and a half and then retaper and repoint them and shoot them together. When I get a batch that has been broken and shortened a second time, I go up a step in point weight to keep them in tune. These may become my hunting arrows, tested, proven, and a bit heavier than my target and match ones. - lbg

Rick, every top 3D competitor in the world uses a full length/uncut arrow; that's generally 31"-33" and it's not because they all have similarly long draw lengths. Yes, longer arrows/longer sighting planes shorten gaps, so does raising nock height, btw. My draw length is 27" and my arrows are 32", this creates about a 7" gap at 20 yards. I am, every single day of the week, more accurate with shorter gaps created by longer arrows. With the same bow and an appropriately spined 28" arrow that weighs the same as the longer arrow, my gap will be an unusable 2 feet. Believe it or not, even tweaking brace height, which changes the nock angle, has an affect on your gap as well. Sorry brother, but your a day late and a dollar short with your discovery. ;^)

Jeez Rog,

Now you tell me. Where were you when I was re-inventing the wheel?

Now I have to invent the arrow "Shaft Stretcher".

Rick

I understand what you are doing and for a gap shooter it would be an easy task to tune 4 bow/arrow combinations to have the same trajectory with the same point on distance. However your aiming system is not familiar to me so I can't help. I don't know if the sight picture falls into play with you but different length arrows could mess you up.

I have the luxury of having two sets of arrows that will shoot the same out of a wide variety of bows, same point on, same trajectory but I'm a gapper. I also have a few dozen arrows that are too short for me now so I'll have to sell them.

My friend has the same thing but in aluminum.

Yorktown, my wife has the same issue, and her longer arrows fly a little slower as well! Same 500 spine carbons, same 100g point, same 4"parabolic fletch. She uses shorter and faster arrows for 3D, longer and slower for backyard and stumpin. She still hits the mark, so I'm staying out of her way!

TinHorn

If you have already registered, please

sign in now

For new registrations

Click Here