From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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I realized today that I had no rose shafts for fall hunting!
Not to worry!
To say that wild muliflora rose is invasive is a complete and total understatement. My yard is full of it. Good for arrows though. I walked out of my front door and cut these beauties.
This new green growth but I just need 45# for a spine. There's some brown, old growth stock there too in the bushes...somewhere deep. Too deep.
These thorns are sharp. I had glasses on and leather gloves for safety and I still got jabbed. No blood loss though so that's good and unusual for this activity.
The end result will be a selfnocked (wrapped with sinew, trade point tipped (sinew wrapped) hunting arrow.
We'll help a shaft or 2 or 3 with some fire to dry.
I left the leaves on so the moisture will leave quicker.
This will take awhile. Patience.
Thanks.
Jawge
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From: bigdaddy
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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How bout showing some progressive pics. I would like to learn more about how to do this and the steps. thanks
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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That's the idea, my friend. Be glad too. Jawge
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From: simplelife
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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Agreed! I'd love to learn how to do this, step by step!
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From: bretto
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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George, how long does it take the green shoots to dry? I would think the darker shoots would have better quality but have no experience with it.
I have a friend close by who has two fence lines bordered by this and could harvest plenty if I wanted. Thanks in advance.
bretto
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From: TRS
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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Still love the rose shafts, right from Jawge's site, to my quiver, and most in the field/tree tops chasing and sometimes hitting dove/squirrel. Good fun.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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bretto, the brown ones will yield the higher spines but I don't need that.
I needed a primitive fix today. :) Note that I cut some pretty long shoots so I can orient within the shoots to get a wide enough point and nock which would be 11/32 finished.
The arrows I made above are from wild rose and the cock feather I ground from wild turkey feathers.
In a few days I'll remove the thorns and do some preliminary hand straightening.
Jawge
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From: Pip
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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Awesome, I've said it before, some people have more than their share of talent. Wish I lived close to you, maybe some would roll of on me. I like to see your posts, Thanks Pip.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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bretto, we'll talk about how long it takes to dry later. Hard to say but I'll show yo how to tell. Jawge
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From: Jim Davis
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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Ottertails, just for the record, native Americans would probably have used multiflora rose--if they had had it. According to nps.gov the plant is native to Japan.
"Multiflora rose was introduced to the eastern United States in 1866 as rootstock for ornamental roses. Beginning in the 1930s, the U.S. Soil Conservation Service promoted it for use in erosion control and as “living fences” to confine livestock. State conservation departments recommended multiflora rose as cover for wildlife. More recently, it has been planted in highway median strips to serve as crash barriers and reduce automobile headlight glare. Its tenacious growth habit was eventually recognized as a problem on pastures and unplowed lands, where it disrupted cattle grazing, and, more recently, as a pest of natural ecosystems. It is designated a noxious weed in several states, including Iowa, Ohio, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and West Virginia.
Distribution and Habitat Multiflora rose occurs throughout the eastern half of the United States and in Washington and Oregon. It tolerates a wide range of soil, moisture and light conditions and is able to invade fields, forests, prairies, some wetlands and many other habitats. "
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From: PaPa Doc
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Date: 23-Aug-14 |
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Yes it is a problem were I hunt in Iowa!
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From: Jeff Durnell
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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It'll outgrow cattle too. Eventually it needs brushhogged down... or its popularity for use as arrow shafts needs to grow immeasurably :^)
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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I used to try to keep it in check. LOL. Now I just snip spme shaft material here and there. :)Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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The shafts were wet from dew.
I decided to remove the leaves and thorns and cut them to around 40" long this morning before church. I used pruning shears to cut them to length and my Swiss Army knife to remove the thorns.
I did some preliminary hand straightening today and noted the changes were beginning to register.
I will leave them in the sun for at least today and then probably bundle them up and bring them inside as they were covered with dew this morning.
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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Jay Massey in his book "Primitive Archery" mentions wild rose was used as an arrow shaft by Native Americans which is possible in some of the Western and Northwestern tribes, I suppose,considering it wasn't brought here until 1866. Jawge
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From: Will tell
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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George that project is on my list to do. I'm going to wait till winter to cut the wild rose.
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From: hunterbob
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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I will be keeping an eye on this thread. I have always wanted to make those.
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From: bretto
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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Thank You George. This will be worth keeping track of.
Nice of you to take the time to share a little of your vast knowledge. Hope your having a great weekend.
bretto
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From: Buzz
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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Nice.
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From: George D. Stout
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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If anyone runs out of multiflora, just let me know. 8^)
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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I'm glad to do it. I am hoping pass it on and motivates some to try it. Jawge
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From: MStyles
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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I have to say that I've only ever thought of multi-flora rose as a nuisance. It's everywhere at our Archery Club. If you miss a target butt or 3d animal here, good luck making your way thru to retrieve your arrow. I'll have to rethink this now. Thanks, George.
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From: simplelife
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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AWESOME GEORGE! Can't wait to learn how to do this!!!
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From: Harleywriter
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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On a related issue, now probably is a good time to gather chokecherry for arrow making, do you think? We had a good year for it here in Montana, I think.
Just have to watch out for bears -- seriously. Both kinds -- black and grizzly frequent the riparian areas that come out from the Rocky Mountain Front.
Anybody got any photos of chokecherry shafts? Don't mean to hijack the thread. Seems related.
Make a good winter time project. Of course, so would cleaning and painting my house interior!
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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Thanks, my friends.
Harleywriter, there is a wild cherry that grows around here and I've used it for shafts. I don't know if it was chokecherry.
I did more hand straightening.
I just finished bundling them up. What else can I do on a Sunday before football season? :)
I use duct tape, start at the large end and wrap it tightly, and fold over the end. I will unbundle and straighten every few days. There will come a time in the next week or so when the changes register. Then I get aggressive with straightening and keep at it until the shafts are dry.
I'll know when they are dry when I bend them and they snap back.
Thanks for keeping on, keeping on.
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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As best as you can make sure the shafts are contiguous and not twisted around each other. Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 24-Aug-14 |
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I forgot to mention I cut 9 shafts. More than I need so I can toss some. The shafts are bundled in 2 groups. Jawge
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From: Chief RID
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Date: 25-Aug-14 |
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Thanks George. I have some garden rose that I cut back to the root stock many years ago. It grows some pretty arrow looking shafts. I may give them a try using your methods being illustrated here. I actually need to do some thinning on them right now. Too many other chores at the moment to get to it but cuttin' a few shafts and getting them bundled could be done today.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 25-Aug-14 |
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Interesting, chief. I never used roses from my garden. Let us know. Jawge
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From: Lucas
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Date: 25-Aug-14 |
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George, there are several native roses that the western/northwestern tribes could have used. The original arrows from that area that I have seen are shorter and thinner than now.
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From: Frisky
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Date: 25-Aug-14 |
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I'm gonna go look for wild rose so I can be like Jawge, I don't think we have much of it. Minnesota classifies it as a noxious weed.
How about tiger lily stalks? I have lots of 'em.
Joe
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From: 2nocks
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Date: 25-Aug-14 |
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Thanks Jawge. Looking forward to seeing how you build these.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 25-Aug-14 |
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Should work just fine, Frisky.:)
I undid the bundles and did some more straightening. They are coming along just fine.
Jawge
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From: Frisky
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Date: 26-Aug-14 |
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Do you really think tiger lily stalks will work? They're straight as an arrow.
Joe
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From: Pappy 1
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Date: 26-Aug-14 |
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Nice looking arrows,they should do the trick. Pappy
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 26-Aug-14 |
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Thanks, everyone. No, Frisky, I was just playing along. :) Jawge
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From: Frisky
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Date: 26-Aug-14 |
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I'm still going to try them.
Joe
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 27-Aug-14 |
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Patience. The shafts will get to the point where changes register. THe bundle shown is at that point now. I'll keep at the straightening every few days until the shafts are ready. Thanks for looking in. Jawge
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From: JM3
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Date: 27-Aug-14 |
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According to USDA mapping, we have multiflora rose in a few Counties in the Panhandle. A mere 8 hr or so drive away.
Figures.
Still be interesting to follow along.
Thanks for posting this Mr. T.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 27-Aug-14 |
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You are welcome,JM3. The principles, I talk about here can be applied to most if not all shoot shafts. I've made arrows from quite a few hardwoods.
In TX, I believe you have dogwood and viburnum> They make good arrows too.
More on my site.
Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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From: JM3
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Date: 27-Aug-14 |
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Sorry Jawge, didn't specify. I mean the Florida panhandle.
If I were in TX, I'd be eating Whataburgers and briskett with Frank.
I've enjoyed the info. on your site in the past.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 27-Aug-14 |
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LOL, JM3. I don't know where I got TX.
Anyway, these shafts are ready for some heavy duty straightening. Time to keep at it. Get the crooks and bends out.
Get a scrap and drill a whole...probably not as large as this one. Gives some leverage particularly for the end crooks and bends. You can also use a piece of 1/2 inch tubing.
Now is the time to get the shafts straight so that no heat is needed later. Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 31-Aug-14 |
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So we have already seen how the shafts after several days begin to register any changes. They kind of become malleable.
I did some almost daily straightening of the shafts and got them pretty straight.
One of the shafts is ready to become an arrow. The test is to bend if it is not dry it will stay bent. If it is dry it will spring back.
Next up is test the spine with a spine tester, remove the bark and sand the arrow smooth.
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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Hope you are still interested. There has been some time since my last post but for primitive archery patience is important.
The shafts are not quite dry yet but close. I kept at the straightening so no heating is needed.
Today I cut the shaft to size, removed the bark, cut the trade point and did some intital sharpening.
You'll need a few tools- knife, file, bench grinder (optional-file work will get it done), bench belt sander (optional), folding rule or tape measure, locking pliers (lined with tape or tin locking pliers), small plane (1 inch blade), andf scrap wood, 11/32 bit.
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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Drill the 11/32" hole. Note the plane and knife. Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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I must need a nap. Here's the scrap with 11/32 hole. I want the nock end to be 11/32 so that's why shaft is inserted in the scrap in the previous post.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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Check your game laws for blade width, etc. Draw your template on oak tag or cardboard. My site has info. Please check it.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/tieons.html
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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I like my arrows 29" BOP so add whatever it takes to leave about 1/2" before the point. Measure 29" (or whatever you like) to the back of template.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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Keeps the tip from curling to badly on impact. I scribe around the shaft with a knife so there is no shredding. You can use a handsaw or hacksaw for b=cutting the shafts. I use a radial arm saw.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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The metal is stainless steel stock which I inherited from my dad. Cut and ready for the grinder.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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Safety first if you are using a grinder. Gloves are safety glasses please. Locking pliers help hold the blade. Line with tape if using regular locking pliers consider lining them with take so they don't mar the blade.
You can use a file instead of the grinder.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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I also use my belt sander as needed to sharpen and shape.
Here's the finished trade point. I may have to grind or file the base a bit more so that it matches the diameter of the shaft.
Weight of the point is 125 grains. Jawge
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From: Centershot
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Date: 02-Sep-14 |
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Heck yeah we're still interested. Figured you'd be back when you had reason. We're keeping an eye out for you.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 06-Sep-14 |
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Haven't done anything. My wife and I went biking down the Cape (Cod) for a few days. I better get her done asap. Season begins 9/15. Jawge
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From: TRS
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Date: 07-Sep-14 |
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Still like these shafts. The instructions from your site Jawge is what got me started. I miss the maple sapling that grow like grass in the woods of Indiana but the rose works fine just not as tuff.
I only tinker with them for small game, still love the carbon, but would not hesitate to hunt large game if my interest turns to primitive only.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 07-Sep-14 |
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That's good, TRS. Good way to do it. Jawge
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From: RonsPlc
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Date: 07-Sep-14 |
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I grow "Arrow Cane" here in my yard to act as both arrow making material, and a privacy hedge between the pool, and the driveway.
It works out well for both me, AND the wife!
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 07-Sep-14 |
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Good stuff. I don't have that but actually prefer the wild rose, Ron.
Anyway, more file work today while holding the trade point in the locking pliers. Still not sharp enough for heat treating. Will need more.
I also cut the slot for the point in the shaft. 29" BOP, 1/2 inch of point beyond hsaft. I used a hacksaw and then 2 blades taped together.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 07-Sep-14 |
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More file work needed so I won't mount the blade yet.
I also cut the nock. I have a spine tester. I tested the spine-47#. Gave it a 1/4 turn and tested again-52#. I cut the nock at right angles to the side with the greater spine.
More nock info and trade point info on my site.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 07-Sep-14 |
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Here's the nock. I will fit it to the bow string with sandpaper after I fletch.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 07-Sep-14 |
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OK. Did some turkey feather grinding. The jig was made following Dean Torges' directions on
bowyersedge.com
See "Barred for Life..."
I use the primaries for hunting arrows. There's only a couple per wing. Don't mix up lefts and rights. Match them up with known lefts or rights. These are lefts.
I cut the feathers to size using the sheet metal cutters, cut them down the middle with a utility knife, pop them in the grinding jig and grind them on a belt sander. Mine is a good one with a rounded part. Works great. Finish off with some 100 grit.
If the quill is too wide after grinding I leave it in the jig and sand the width.
Trimming with a scissors hepls too.
Wear a mask and safety glasses.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 07-Sep-14 |
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Y'all still with me?
Next up is fletching. I use a simple jig tha's worked for years over countless arrows. It's left wing and off set.
They'll be fletched with hide glue.
Right out of the bottle. :)
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 08-Sep-14 |
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Ok...finishing up. Here's the fletched arrow. Mounting the point and wrapping the fletching both with sinew still left. Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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This morning I pulled out some sinew thread. I use elk tendons which were a gift. They still are not quite long enough so I tie 2 or 3 together. Then I dip it in water.
Starting at the nock end of the fletching I wind the sinew through and tie a couple or whip knots at the leading edge.
Previously, I skyved the leading edge of the fletching to get it smooth.
I also wrapped some sinew around the bottom of the nock and tied it off at the cock feather side with 2 or 3 knots. This gives me a "bump" I can use to nock the arrow without looking down.
Next up is heat treating and mounting the blade.
Fun stuff.
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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Oops. Sorry. My last project. Too bad I can't edit.
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From: South Farm
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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My wife is going to be real mad at you George when somebody cuts her roses..
Never heard of these, but I love the idea!
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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Thanks. Then come here and cut all you want, South Farm!
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From: 2nocks
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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really nice arrows. Thank you for this thread
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From: The Beav
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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George, Great read and interesting info. What spine ranges do you normally get with wild rose? My understanding is with a self bow like you shoot, the bow tunes better with a weaker spined arrow that a comparable fiberglas recurve or longbow? How much difference in spine? Sorry, for all of the questions, This build a long just really interested me. Beav
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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Thanks, 2 nocks. Beav, this one is 50# but that will get sanded down later as I shoot it in and tune it to the bow. My hickory self-bow for this year likes 40-45# cut to 29" BOP for a 26" draw. I think my 45# recurve was shooting 50# arrows. No problem. Questions welcomed. That's why I do these buildalongs.. Jawge
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From: kenwilliams
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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Thank you for doing this thread, George. I always enjoy seeing your posts.
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From: MStyles
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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Very informative thread for those who love the primitive stuff.
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From: Ghostinthemachine
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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Simply outstanding. I've heard of these arrows and it's cool to actually see how they're made. Wonderful work!
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From: Terry PA
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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Thanks for putting this in here, I really enjoyed it!
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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Thanks, my friends. I am glad you like it. Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 11-Sep-14 |
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I heat treated the point and pretty much followed Mr Baugh's directions.
http://www.primitiveways.com/pt-knives-1.html
I wear leather work gloves and put on safety glasses.
I hold the point in a pair of pliers (plastic coated or whatever they use). I use a plumber's torch which only takes about 10 seconds of heating to get it red. It's a small point. It would be hard to heat a knife this way. I get all but about a 3/8" of the rear tang portion cherry red and then quench in motor oil.
The oil gets hot so you'll need a metal container for the oil. I use an old pie tin. I pour it back in its container and reuse it again.
Then reheat in a toaster oven to temper it. Mr Baugh describes it all nicely.
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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Alright! The point has been installed with sinew an hide glue. The arrow has been shot in. Just about done.
Before installation, trim down the wood on that point end as much as possible being careful to not enter the pith area of the shaft because that area will disintegrate there.
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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Insert the point into the groove I cut way back up top.
Then, place it on a wood scrap and give the arrow the spin test like you were spinning a top. There should be no wobble in the point. If there is make an adjustment.
Mark where you want the 4 slits (2 on one side and 2 on the other) in the metal to go and cut with a hacksaw.
Reinstall the point. I put down some hide glue first.
Wrap with sinew in a crisscross pattern. You can always add more threads of sinew as you go along. Extend the sinew wrap into the base.
Give another spin test to check the fit.
Wait 30 mins or so and give it a coat of hide glue to seal it.
Jawge
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From: Cavemanrob
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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Thanks for sharing your how-to George. Can I find wild rose here in CT you think? and what about the wild black-berry type bramble? they seem very tough growing near the ocean.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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Sorry wrong photo.
The point was mounted straight up. Kind of by accident. LOL. But vertical or horizontal will work.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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I left the arrow a little over spined at 50#. I go out and shoot it paying attention to arrow flight.
I was getting a little fishtailing so I wrapped some sandpaper around the arrow and sanded away.
At 48# the arrow flew great... no fishtailing. Nothing but the back of the feathers visible.
Porpoising would have needed some nock adjustment either at the arrow or the bow. But no porpoising.
Next up will be finishing the arrow with some primitive finishes.
Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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Cavemanrob, I think you have wild rose in CT but any hardwood shaft works nicely. I used cherry, ash, oak, etc for years. More info on my site. The same techniques apply. See Shoot Arrows. http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html Jawge
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From: Cavemanrob
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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I've been on your site from top to bottom and back again. Lots of good stuff on there.
I did an online search for wild rose, or multiflora wild rose, and then tried to ID some in my area (SE CT) and had no luck. I did note some thick brambles growing in a seaside park that I thought might be wild rose, but it had blackberries all over it. Tasty ones too.......but I digress.
I tried using dowells from the hardware store to make shafts.....first one I shot hit the target and snapped in two, so I figured ill try what tyou have done here, or ill work on making my own dowels, or collecting some other shoots I have in my yard (honeysuckle, maple...etc. )
Thanks again for sharing the tutorial.
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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Welcome. Shoots from a hardwood will work. Jawge
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From: Grey Fox
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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Very nice George. Good luck monday. Thanks for sharing. Kenny
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 12-Sep-14 |
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Thanjs, Grey Fox. I just washed my hunting clothes. Looking forward to opening day. Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 13-Sep-14 |
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Yesterday, I made a blunt tipped wild rose arrow. I used a .38 caliber brass cartridge case. Steel would be better but I did not have any handy.
The reason I made my own blunt is that when these shafts are tapered in the normal fashion the pith kind of disintegrates resulting in a half taper which is not good. Shaft was left untapered and fit in the case nicely after a little sanding.
The cartridge case was less than 125 grains at around 80. I cut little pieces of plumbing solder and put it in the cartridge to bring it to 125 grains. I gently heated the cartridge to melt the solder and let it set. Installation was with hide glue and that's a first for me.
The arrow shot beautifully. 5 shots in a milk jug at 15 yards. All closely spaced. No misses.
Both arrows are finished with deer grease rubbed in with friction. All the sinew was coated with grease as well.
Hide glue is strong but not even close to waterproof. Hunting in a driving rain is out but in a gentle mist is doable. LOL at 66 yo that's ok with me.
When I hunt, I do it with self made tackle. Most of which is of natural materials.
In the photo you will also see a little leather holster. Broadhead arrows go in there when carrying. The holster also protects them in my quiver.
We've gone from wild rose in the wild to finished arrows in about a month.
Thanks for sticking with this.
I hope I have motivated you to try it.
Have a great season and enjoy your time in the woods.
God Bless!
Jawge
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From: Pip
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Date: 14-Sep-14 |
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Thanks! Very Cool!
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 14-Sep-14 |
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You are welcome, Pip. Thanks for looking. Jawge
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From: George Tsoukalas
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Date: 14-Sep-14 |
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I forget to mention instead of hide glue and sinew, one can use epoxy and nylon thread or other stout thread. Jawge
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