just came back denton hill went down hoping to try out and buy a bob lee bow but they were not there this year, they are loosing a lot of the big name bowyers.

The competition continues to grow there and that hits many long time vendors. They still have lots of bowyers and the vendor tents are full. Each bowyer has to justify whether the trip is worth it to them for orders gained versus time and money spent. It's a long drive from Texas to Pa. for basically a three day event. One thing about these shoots is bowyers come and bowyers go but there is rarely a space available in the big tents come Saturday.

Well, I just got back too. I have to vent a bit, I saw such open breaking of the published rules! No selling in the camping area.....yet I saw oodles of tables set up in the camping area and parking areas selling stuff. Not fair to the vendors who pay. No dogs overnight (we've already beat this horse to death on another thread) but dogs everywhere all the time. Five used items per blanket swap set-up. HA! Right! Blanket swap begins at 6:00 runs to 8:00. Uh-Uh. By 5:00 folks were headed that way with literally arm loads of stuff. By 7:00 it was essentially over.

All of these folks seemed to be nice enough people, but the way I was raised, you obey the rules. It's their event, on their property. Basically it's their house and we should be polite enough to do as they ask. Some of the staff told me that you wouldn't believe the way some people talk to them when they try to encourage following the rules.

There are three things folks can do who don't like a rule the way I see it. 1. Politely ask if it can be reconsidered. 2. If the answer is no, follow the rules. 3. If you don't intend to follow the rules, stay home.

That's my point of view. Yes, the vendors have changed greatly since I was last there a few years ago. I too noted the absence of most of the bigger name bow makers and more non-archery items like jewelry, wooden bowls, etc. which is fine--just noting.

The seminar by Joel Turner was fantastic!

Dave

David, did you report the camping area selling to Mike? That's the only way to stop it. He will send them packing if he didn't approve it.

I did tell Mike Jr. He said it is very hard to control. He's the one who told me how ugly some folks get when they ask them to follow the rules. It was so obvious that anyone on staff could see it. It was taking place right up next to the lodge as well as back in the camping areas farther away. I guess I don't get this thing of thinking that "I'm so special the rules don't apply to me." In the Scripture there was a time during the period when the judges ruled that "There was no king in Israel and everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Judges 17:6. Total lawlessness reigned. I hope these folks follow the game laws better than that. To me simply following the rules is a matter of character and principle.

It does. It happen just at Denton Hill. Just about every trad shoot I have attended it's the same. Doesn't make it right but it happens. The best thing is to not buy from those people. But I have seen threads where people ask about Osage staves and such and are directed to those people. If people stopped buying perhaps there would be less of it.

As far as the blanket sale, same thing. Don't patronize those with more than five items. It is supposed to be used items only yet I see people selling homemade bow socks and various other new things. It's hard for Mike and his staff to catch everything and still be on top of things like changing targets and keeping things running. Perhaps a little self policing would go a long way to curb those things. They only sell at camp sites and along the road because there is a market/ demand for it.

Sorry, stupid smart phone. Meant to say it is not just at Denton Hill that this happens. Another thing that would help is if the vendors got together and voiced their concerns to Mike. All we can do is choose not to patronize those private sellers.

I know that the rules are there with good intentions, but I've been a paying vendor myself and it's never bothered me a bit when guys take a few bows (or whatever else) to try to sell/swap while they're at a shoot (whether it's at the designated trade blanket or otherwise).

There's a pretty good chance that some of the money they get from selling their stuff will end up being spent at some of the vendors booths (or at the concession stands, ect.)

I've often received bow orders from guys that had to sell a bow or two before they could purchase one of mine. That's just part of the process sometimes.

I certainly wouldn't want to make it more difficult for them. I personally feel like I'd be cutting my nose off to spite my face as a vendor if I complained about it.

Besides that, I really don't think that any of these guys are going to get rich trading and selling a few old bows.

It's usually just a hobby most folks are lucky to break even on when it's all said and done. They sell one old bow... to buy another old bow...lol. It's kind of a vicious cycle...lol :^)

The guys that are really serious about it that want to try making money at it (or get more exposure with it) usually have no problem spending the vendor fee and sitting in a booth all weekend.

If we start running folks off and discouraging them from attending because they want to sell a few old bows, or bring their pet along, then these functions will only get smaller and smaller.

It seems like attendance numbers at some of these shoots are declining anyways. Why help them fizzle out at a faster rate?

Let's not loose sight of the forest because of a few trees.

Just a point to ponder from a previous vendor's perspective.

Running folks off?

Just follow the rules, or there will be more "previous vendors" than vendors!

Why these do these "guys" need any defending?

Seems to me the ETAR vendors and honest sellers are the men being disrespected.

As stated, the vendors, who should be the most outraged really don't protest much if at all. I guess they figure like recurve crafter that that money made will be spent at the vendor tents. Until the vendor numbers reduce, or they start to protest, not much will happen. If it bothers you that much then don't buy from them and encourage others not to.

The vendor tents are always full, so it doesn't seem to much of a concern with them.

Recurve crafter,please tell us why pets should be allowed at archery events.Also I went as a non shooter this year and it was 8 bucks just to get in to have the opportunity to spent money at the vendors. That seems a little steep to me.I also heard other people complaining it was too much.

You won't get get people to stop buying from the parking lot vendors because they are cheaper. Most guys will buy a dozen arrows in the parking lot that are cheaper than what the vendors are asking. That doesnt make it right. As far as the bowyers are concerned, the big named guys are already establised. They don't need to come. The few orders they get are not as valuable to them as the few orders a guy just staring out may get. And I noticed more dogs than ever. Even steeped in poop on one of the courses. I don't go for the vendors or to shoot. I go to see my buddies that I only get to see once a year.

Yep, like Lee stated, it's a very simple solution. If you bothers you that bad, just don't buy from any of them. That's what I would do if it bothered me.

I'm not necessarily defending anyone, I'm just saying that even as a vendor at other shows, it never bothered me and I never looked down my nose at anyone for it. I don't really care. I don't make the rules, and I don't have to enforce them.

The guys that run ETAR make the rules, if they choose not to enforce their own rules, that's their call.

A handful of people selling a few used bows without paying a vendor fee isn't going to be the reason for decreased vendors in the future.

There are a lot of other factors at play there (high fuel prices, internet sales, more shoots being held across country these days, ect.)

As far as pets being at the archery shoots, they just don't bother me either. I like animals. My wife and I both do. Sometimes better than people.

We have a 10 year old lab that's better behaved (and probably smarter) than some peoples' children...lol She's like family to us, so I can relate to others who enjoy the company of their pet, especially in an outdoor setting like a bow shoot.

Now if it was an indoor deal, then ya, I don't think it would probably be a good idea to allow pets.

Brandon, I realize that some of the money made by the parking lot and camp ground sellers goes to the vendors, but that doesn't justify the behavior or rule breaking. And I too like animals--I am a real dog lover, but again, the rules are very clear, "We are a state park: no alcohol and no pets overnight." I guess I just have trouble with what about that people do not understand or why some folks think they are above the rules.

OK, nuff said about that from me. I had a nice time but sure missed my buddies who used to go with me. Just not the same without them.

Yep Dave, I think it's just human nature.

To some, rules are meant to be broken. :^)

Actually, I'm sure that we've all probably broken a rule or two during our lifetime, myself included.

Maybe not at a bow shoot, but somewhere at some point in time.

Anyways, it's good to hear that you had a nice time overall.

Denton Hill is one of those shoots that I've never been to but would like to go to someday.

I've heard that it's one of the biggest and best.

It'd be nice to just go as an attendee/shooter (not a vendor). Vending makes it feel too much like work...lol.

I'd like to do a little shooting, a little sightseeing, and meet some of you guys that I've interacted with over the years but haven't had the chance to meet in person yet.

I'll even leave my lab at home...lol

Although she'd love to go and you'd never know she was there unless you made the mistake of petting or feeding her. If you did that, she probably wouldn't leave you alone...lol

I fall in the middle. Total dog lover here, but don't want to encounter them (or hear them barking) at a bow event. 'Outlaw vendors' don't bother me as long as it's one or three bows. When they turn into a mini-business competing with paying vendors, I personally see that as a sign of disrespect for those who believe in following rules. If I was a knife vendor and heard some guy had a hundred knives for sale at his tent, I might be miffed. When it comes to buying at an event like ETAR, I don't even consider the outlaws. Rewarding them is the last thing I'd do, so my money goes to the tents.

ETAR is one of the best events in the country. It's run sloppy at times. I get it. There are a lot of people crammed in a small area...a mosh pit of traditional archery culture. Too many people for policing. Too many guys who ignore rules or skate by. Mud, dog poop, grinning kids, campfire smoke, string wax, dirty bathrooms, shiny bows, tobacco spit....you take the bad with the good or you miss it.

Missed it this year first time in 25 years. Great event for sure. My advice is simple if you don't like it stay home.

I've never been to Denton, but would sure like to make it one day. Rules are always being broken everywhere, but the vendor situation here should be enforced. It's just not right to pay your bucks for the right to sell while others skate by.

Most of our events out West have lots of Vendors, BUT there is no fee to vendors since clubs feel that they are a main attraction. Entry or shooting fees make up the bulk of money the club collects.

I'm sure those in charge in Denton could not justify that since putting on such a massive event has to be very costly.

Dogs? I love'em, but if you bring'em, then keep them on leash, pick up their crap, and make them behave. (same for your offspring too)

To some "guys," rules are meant to be broken.

To honest men, their word is their bond.

Who do you trust?

I have never heard a vendor complain about the blanket sales or people selling in the campground and I have asked. Stuff is all used that frankly maybe all some people can afford. Plus Rendezvous is all about bartering and is fun. Personally I like having vendors there but I go to Denton for the shoot.

" If you don't like it stay home " That seems to be the general attitude of the persistant rule breakers. That seems to be the attitude of society today. Make the victims the bad guy. I'm 66 yrs old and in my day you followed the rules and respected the feelings and wishes of others. Not so today.If you want to do something just do it. Too bad if it bothers or annoyes other people. After all they are just jerks for being annoyed.When it comes to sawmill and etar, you win. I will stay home and it's too bad for me as I really enjoyed it for the most part with the exeption of having to listen to your precious little animals bark and bark. I'm having my own little shoot from now on at my camp. All my friends are welcome even if they shoot a compound or crossbow,I don't care as long as they are having fun shooting their choice of bow.I do it once a year and it's growing and that's a good thing.

"To some "guys," rules are meant to be broken.

To honest men, their word is their bond.

Who do you trust?"

Nick,

I don't fully trust any man. They all have faults to some degree.

There is some level of risk involved when you deal with ANYONE.

And just because a person pays a vendor fee, that doesn't ensure that their word is good.

I'm not going to name names publicly, but I can think of least to companies that have probably paid a vendors fee and set up at ETAR in the past.

I say "probably", because I'm not 100% sure that they set up there, but did set up at other shoots, and I'm pretty sure they also attended ETAR.

Anyways, both of these companies took peoples' money and did not honor their word before they went out of business and fell off the face of the Earth.

So, how did paying a vendor fee make those guys more trustworthy?

In both of those cases, the vendor fee would have only been a false sense of security.

I have not attended Denton Hill for seven years. I did attend three years in a row prior to that time. I had a blast! I never saw anything in the three years to complain about. It was the nearest thing to heaven on earth for me as a traditional archer. I guess some people just look for a reason to complain. I thought it was the best thing I'd ever witnessed and hope to return next year...

Back to OP's post concerning a lack of bowers at Denton and other shoots. I really do not think it has anything o do with the venue itself. First off expenses are very high even if you are in the area. Second the bowyers are not getting the orders at the shoots they used to get. They was a time when they had to go to a shoot to get recognition. Today all you have to do is log onto the internet and go to Bowsite or any of the other websites. You can get all the info you want and reviews. Then you can go the bowyers website for details. Things are changing and the bowyers have to adapt to make a living.

I understand the complaint about people selling in the camping area, it is a legitimate complaint. But, consider this; a large portion of the people go there to buy new bows and other equipment. If they sell a used bow in camp, they will have more to spend in the tents. I know someone will say they should wait for the trading blanket, but if they are going to sell it on the blanket, what difference does it make anyway? Sell it on the blanket or in camp, it is all the same in the end except the sooner they sell it the sooner they will have money to spend in the tents. The buying and selling is a very important factor that draws people to this event. If the selling is stopped, some will stay home (not me, I enjoy it Denton too much) which will hurt the vendors for lack of attendance. If I had to guess more vendors stay away from events because of the fees they are charged to set up than because of people selling in the camping areas.

I to have never heard any of the vendors complain either. In fact, I have often seen several vendors at the blanket sale. Every year I see a few complaints on the thread, but for the 20 years or so that I've been attending, I've always had a great time. Wouldn't miss it!

I agree With Sipsy River, and I don't buy new anymore. Plenty of used to find. Sipsy makes a good point; no difference between selling at the car, or blanket sale. I stuck some of my stuff with a vendor and gave him the chance to make some money as I shopped for deals. Went with limited amount of cash, and would return to see if I made any more money to spend. If some of my stuff sold, I would have been buying from a vendor with good prices on used equipment. Another point that should be made; is that I didn't see a lot of those Non Vendors who had bows by their cars selling much. Top dollar was being asked by most of them, and they were passed by. I got to see some nice bows sitting out in the sun on racks, or blankets as I walked down the hill, and they were there every day as I returned to my vehicle all the way up that hill where 4x4's were directed to park. Denton is more of a social event I found. Nobody is getting rich off it, accept maybe the owners.

To me it's like traditional archery heaven. You can shoot all day if you want, find just about anything you could want either from the vendors or on the blankets. Meet up with friends and make a whole bunch of new ones. I've only been going for the last two years and I can't imagine myself ever missing it from here on out.

Bob N

I guess I'll never make it up there. Just checked MapQuest and it was 1855.2 miles and estimated gas cost was $1005.96.

I thought the event was awesome this was my 3rd year in a row attending and I plan to never miss I can't complain about anything except maybe my shooting lol the reason for the event is to have everyone who shares the same common interest at the same place and the common interest is traditional archery so who cares if people sell or trade items that's why people go why go to the vendor tent and spend 800$ on a new bow which I seen a lot of bows that were more than that when you can buy a used one off someone for 100$ If the owners ad vendors don't have any problems with it then no one else should I had an awesome time

been to every one but one,always to short to much food to much fun,and goes by to fast

One complain I had is that my syrup wasn't warmed up when by NJ buddies fixed me pancakes in camp.

Every year I make a few things and sell them at the swap meet. I then turn around and spend that money in the tents. Over the years I've probably bought 25 bows from the vendors in the tents. Also buy shafts, knives, gloves, everything you can think of. This year I bought a Stalker bow with the money I made at the swap meet. If I didn't sell some things I wouldn't be a able to afford to buy 1/4 of the things I've bought in the tents. So it may be against the rules, but I've done a heck of a lot to support the vendors. Sorry if that offends some of you.

Tracker, it seems that a few folks have taken issue with my post regarding the rule violations at ETAR. No, I personally am not the least bit offended, just find it interesting how many folks find it so easy to justify violating the rules of an organization or group who work hard to put on a great event just for their own personal gain--that's all I was saying. I guess it is endemic in our culture from the president on down for folks to obey only the laws or rules they happen to like. You stated that you sell your things at the swap meet--that what it is for and that is the way it should be done--at least according to the rules of the shoot. I guess I'm just old fashioned about stuff like that and consider it a matter of principle to do as I'm asked by the folks who are my hosts.

I'm all for following the rules, and it would be great if more people did, but I'm not going to let the items stated ruin my ETAR. Although, I did NOT step in dog doo or I may have a different opinion about that.

As a thought, I'm not sure how much authority Mike and his crew would have throwing people out, I'm sure they could ask them to comply. Denton Hill is a State Park, and if the campground sellers aren't breaking the Parks rules, (dogs are allowed in the park during the day also) there might not be much Mike could do if push came to shove, the Park Rangers would be the ones to take action. He probably figures that He has enough to do at the shoot, without confronting things he hasn't gotten many complaints about.

David, I agree with you. It's easy to put stuff up for sale all over the place. People should take the time to attend the swap meet to do their selling. That way it can be controlled a little by Mike.

I believe that somewhere along the line I was told that the reason for not selling except as a vendor has to do with the state wanting sales tax on everything sold in the state. There are some vendors that do not attend because of the Pa tax laws. I am not sure if this is exactly how it goes in Pa but I think a vendor at Denton has to have a PA license or be registered in PA to sell and has to pay PA sales tax on everything being sold to a PA customer even if not sold during Denton Hill. Example: If a registered vendor sells something to a PA customer in December PA law requires taxes to be paid to the state, even if sold via internet. If they do not have a PA license they do not have to pay PA tax. Again, not sure if this is exactly correct but I was told this by a vendor. That may be why they they call it a trading blanket and not a selling blanket. What would happen if PA required us to have a license to sell at the trading blanket? And pay the state sales tax?

Since I have never been, I'm going to ask...

How much do they charge the vendors?

How much is the admission for the shooters/lookers?

Seems like the situation gets tougher over time for vendors. Costs of display space, travel with goods, hotel vs camp, loss of income (hopefully offset), and other things. These may have mattered less in the past, but I figure they still mattered. Today the web has changed many business models, and a lot of vendors are very successful without ever setting up at any event. A lot of shoot coordinators will tell you they can't pull in the vendor numbers and big names they used to. This isn't only true in archery.

Every summer I attend one of the largest art and craft fairs in the east. It features real artisans with skills on par with good bowyers. Over the last 6+ years the vendor numbers have declined. This year the food vendors were down significantly...the event overall has dropped at least a third in size. This is an event which would easily make 3 or 4 ETARs in terms of attendance. The vendor-friends I have there tell me the setup costs, travel, space and other costs really hurt. If people don't spend...the vendors stay away and sell more by staying in the shop.

Sipsey, Companies that sell products or services are required to collect 6% sales tax. Then they need to report quarterly to the PA Department of Revenue and include sales to all Pennsylvania residents throughout the year. That's why some companies don't sell at shoots but they take orders and ship from their home. It's also why several vendors quit coming to ETAR and other shoots.

Thanks Phil. I knew it was something like that.

I am not sure if this is true or not. I have heard of a vendor that used to go to the event, and made good money in the past. One year he attended as a vendor and didn't make much. Was told that PA actually taxed him on an expected income based on the past rather than what he reported, and the guy lost a ton of money. This is all hear say, but when I heard that; it was enough for me to never consider setting up as a vendor, or go half in with one.

They can't take you based on past income

If you don't charge vendors to set up than you don't have to police these small time peddlers, any body can sell and trade, that's the way I like to see it. Its what "rendezvous" were all about, back in the early 1800's, and the way they used to be when these stickbow shoots started.

I don't see myself in trade blanket pics :-(

This was my first year at Denton. I thought the dogs being there was a bit weird, but no biggie. I walked by the campers with all their bows on display for sale, No biggie. Wasn't real interested in the blanket sale but walked thru it each day.

I met up with a group of great guys and we had a fantastic 3 days of shooting. The Joel Turner seminar was very very good. That alone was worth the price of admission. I missed the horseback archery...maybe next year.

Kudos to all the people responsible for running such a huge event.

I had a Great time once again.

Shane, I can't believe that is true. You file a quarterly report with the state showing all revenue for the quarter and the payment for tax taken in.

r.grider if they don't charge the vendors, then who is going to pay the big bucks for those BIG tents we all like to get under when it rains??

Wow! Was just looking at this thread and that is me in the orange t-shirt shooting in the eagle eye. This was my 4th year at ETAR and I'm already making plans for next year!

Most vendors have their own tents they can use and most would probably prefer to use their own.

I'm sure that those big tents aren't cheap to get set up, but I wouldn't be surprised if the host also makes some money on the deal, which is fine. I'm all for capitalism (I'm not a commi...lol). :^)

It can get expensive for vendors to travel around and set up at multiple events throughout the year though.

I have to agree with r. griders way of thinking on the subject. If you want to entice more vendors, and keep them coming back, have a very low (or no vendor set up fee). You won't have to worry about policing things and trying to keep it fair for the vendors that way. Keep it simple and fun! In this day and age when internet marketing is so much cheaper and more convenient, it's a tough call to travel across the country with half your shop in tow just for a weekend of potential sales.

I don't how much they charge to set up at ETAR?

Most of the shoots I've been to that charge a set up fee were like $100 to $150, which isn't too bad. That amount probably just covers the cost of getting the tent set up?

I suppose if ETAR's set up fee is in the same price range, that wouldn't be too bad.

Maybe they charge a lot more than that though? I really don't know?

What has always discouraged me from setting up at any of the shoots in PA is the State's sales tax requirement that you guys mentioned previously.

I wouldn't have any problem collecting and paying sales tax while I was in the State. That seems fair. But to have to collect and pay it for all future PA sales! That's a little much!

I don't like doing the record keeping and paperwork that I have to do for Ohio State sales tax...lol

I certainly don't want to have to do it for Pennsylvania too...lol

If this Buckeye ever goes to any of the shoots in PA, it'll just be for some rest and relaxation. :^)

PA can keep their paperwork and impose their tax regulations on someone else.

We have a sales tax in WV also. Some states do. I sure won't stay away because of a sales tax.

JR, I think he's talking about having to collect it and process the paper work as a vendor--not paying it as a customer.

But anyone selling stuff in a sales tax state has to pay that to the state.

Hmmm, don't know how vendors get around that in other states.

They don't.

Again, I am not positive about this, but I think because Denton is held is State Park, vendors must have a PA business license or permit to sell there which puts them on the PA tax list. That then leads to the quarterly tax reports. When I was a vendor no other place, other states, required that. One place in Florida required us (vendors) to collect tax and pay before the vendors left the park.

Sipsey is right. I am guessing it was about 12-13 years ago the PA tax man came into the shoot, threaten some of the vendors stating they sold so much and had to pay outrageous taxes by there calculations. Can't remember what vendor it was but they were from Washington State, PA tax man said that he owed $10,000 dollars in taxes on what THEY THOUGHT he sold (which he noway sold that much). He told them if they wanted it they were going to have to come to Washington to get it and he has never been back. After that year quite of few of the vendors that had been there regularly never came back. They had never charged sales tax on items sold since they were from out of state and many of the buyers were from out of state. After that year vendors have had to buy a PA business lincense and file that quarterly report. It really ruined it for the shooters, because a lot of the high quality vendors that had been going quit going because they didn't want to deal with the PA tax system. DANNY

Thank you for clearing that up Danny. I guess the rumor was true, and that is the same story that I got.

I heard that they estimated a vendor's sales but don't know who it was. There should be no way that would hold up if the vendor can prove what they sold.

I do know the rest of that is true about having to get a tax ID and submit quarterly reports that include all sales throughout the year to PA residents. That really drove vendors away.

Phil is right. You can only be taxed on what you sell. Period

Phil and babysaph,

You are right they can only be taxed on what they sell. The problem was they didn't keep records at the shoot as to what they sold, they never had to till then. They couldn't prove how much they sold, even if they could they would have had to go to court fight it. That would have taken time, money (Lawyer), and for most of the vendors travel to be able to do it. It turned into a no win situation for a lot of them, so they quit coming. PA State government screwed up a great thing for the shoot and local economy for some time after that. It appeared attendenace started to drop after that happen and it never totally recovered to what it was. At least that is how it appears to me. DANNY

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