Ladies and gentlemen, I have no idea why God has endowed His most humble servant with the Bow of Bows and now with the Holy Grail of Bows! I don't have much to brag about, and I'm not even deserving of what I have, but I sure have great bows, lol! Here's my newest bow. It's a 1960s Drake Hunterflite. This one fits my needs for 2014. I need a short bow in a lighter draw weight than my 60" 54# Deathmaster. Still, the bow has to have amazing speed, quietness and smoothness. While you were all sitting around on your frozen duffs, eating popcorn and playing tiddly winks, I was waiting in the shadows to place my bid on the bow. Here are a couple of quotes about the Hunterflite, copied and pasted from Skookum, the man who Bob Savage has accused of building perfect bows: "The "Hunterflites" were more uniform in construction than his other bows. AND, talk about fast shootin' bows, all you guys out there that think you have a fast bow-EAT YOUR HEART OUT!"

"If you want to know what a REALLY FAST 1950s bow was, then find a Drake "Hunter-Flite" and launch a few shafts from it!!"

You know, it's not fair that I, Frisky, Mighty Nimrod of the North (A.K.A. The Legend) should end up with the HOLY GRAIL OF BOWS, let alone the BOW OF BOWS! In fact, if you add my 95' purpleheart Howatt Hunter to the list, I now have three of the best! Still, I listened to Mr. Anderson, so EAT YOUR HEARTS OUT! Better yet, sit back and gaze upon this beauty, ye mighty, and despair! Here's a side view of the riser. It needs a new rest.

Joe

Sorry for the big pic. I resized. Might have to check the others.

The bow has huge curves! Kind of like a 1960s version of a Border. It has the tiniest limb tips I've ever seen on a bow. Beautiful blue and white overlays! It has laminations all through it! Beautiful wood! Fabulous sky-blue glass on the back! It has a yellow wedge in the sight window. Looks like maple. It has two super thin laminations of maple in the limbs and then a third piece spliced in near the curves. I guess this wedge is to prevent limb twist. Really cool! Most important- the bow has the best grip I ever held in my hand! What a great grip! It's kind of like the Bear #2 snap on grip but better. I have small hands, and this grip is perfect. It's like they made it for me. When the snow melts, I'll get out and tell you how it shoots. Here's a pic of the limb tips. More pics coming.

Joe

WHOA! Have to fix the pics folks and I'll post more.

Joe

Oh no. Does this mean the Deathmaster is now the second best bow? :)

No Phil, lol! It's still the Bow of Bows. I hurt my shoulder shoveling and it is healing but pulling 54# bothers me. I need a 45 pounder until I'm healed up. Also, I need a short bow for much of my hunting. Here you can see the limb color on the back.

Joe

This is interesting. The bow is marked 54", as are all Hunterflites I know of. Fred told me they're all 54". Mine measures 56" around the curves. When set next to the Deathmaster, a 60" bow, it does look 6" shorter. Whether measured along the belly or back, it comes out 56" from groove to groove. It has really big curves and tiny tips.

Joe

Here's the front of the grip. What a great grip!

Joe

Here is a photo of one of the curves. Check out the third (short) lamination put in to stiffen the bow.

Joe

Biggest problem I have now is stringing the bow. It doesn't do any good to find the Holy Grail if you can't shoot it! If you look at the pic of the full frontal view of the bow, you can see those tiny tips. Any ideas what I should do besides build a wall stringer? It seems tailor made for a Selway, but I can't get mine to string anything.

Joe

Pretty bow Frisky. Congratulations.

BTW, you know I think the Deathmaster is the second best bow behind Howard's Gamemaster Jet. :) Just picked up a original Gamemaster that I'm in the process of getting in shape. It's moving in the opposite direction that you are. Instead of my shorter Howatt's this one is 67 from nock to nock. But I'm sure it will be fast. :)

Ottertails- I got a super fast bow here to blow through huge porkers. You got to get a speedy bow if you go to sissy poundage.

Phil- Bob Savage told me his bow outcast the Howard bow, as much as Jack tried to make excuses. In beauty, your bow kills the Deathmaster but is third in performance and second in overall beauty. You see, my Drake might be the fastest of all-time! It's also more beautiful than a Howard! I just need to clean it up a bit. I'm waiting for Skookum to comment. I think it's a 63' or later.

Joe

Is it a Black Widow...?

"Is it a Black Widow...?"

Now that is an insult! This baby is the bow the Widow lovers wish they had! By the way, this one does come up for sale on occasion. You have to keep your eyes open.

Joe

When this bow came up for auction, I kept quiet and hoped nobody would mention it. I ended up paying $19 more than I wanted to pay but still got it for under $200. If it doesn't break on the first pull, it's gonna be great! It has the very best grip I've ever come across! I've flexed the limbs using a stringer but not stringing it. It seems solid.

Joe

When this bow came up for auction, I kept quiet and hoped nobody would mention it. I ended up paying $19 more than I wanted to pay but still got it for under $200. If it doesn't break on the first pull, it's gonna be great! It has the very best grip I've ever come across! I've flexed the limbs using a stringer but not stringing it. It seems solid.

Joe

Joe, That's a sweet older bow for sure!... Every one in awhile even a blind hawg finds and acorn..:)

Enjoy it!..Jim

I'm green w/ envy! Congrats man!

A tip-to-tip (cup-to-cup) stringer would put the leverage to your maximum advantage. If the upper cup of the stringer is a bit too deep to clear the string notch on that small tip, you can pad the cup with some tissue or the like to shallow it enough for clearance. Just be careful on those small tips and pad the cup in stages to prevent a failure.

I started using the tip-to-tippers when I got a bow that was too stiff to string with the Selway cup-to-plate mode ... not enough leverage for my frail musculature! The tip-to-tipper made a night and day difference in stringing that one. I now use the "tipper" on all of my bows.

Good luck.

Dire wolf- Now that was funny, lol!

Kwiky- I'd be green too, lol!

Thin man- I'm pretty thin too. Those Selways suck! Maybe we just don't have the technique down. I padded the upper pad of both my stringers and can get the clearance I need to string the bow. However, there's very little leather over that tip! I don't want to chance it. The Black Widow stringer might work.

Joe

Frisky: the Black widow stringer will work on those small tips

Phill:

those Jack Howards shoot terrific; My Brother has 4 of them that he ordered to his specs from Jack Howard years ago He keeps them like new

They will out cast my best modern recurves (Beauriful wood in the risers) Brazillian rose wood I think)

The LIMBSAVER stringers work well.. 3 Rivers HAS THEM...

http://www.3riversarchery.com/Limbsaver+Recurve+Bow+Stringer_i5096_baseitem.html

For shorter bows, one can do several things that help with the leverage thang..

Place TWO feet on the stringer..a shoulder's width apart.. IF necessary..SHORTEN THE STRINGER string a bit for shorter bows so you don't have to reach so far to string the bow or lift so hight ..Jim

Thanks Andy.

Jim- I do have the Limbsaver stringer but it takes so much pressure to string anything, I'm afraid I'll re-injure my back.

Here's the auction site pic of the serial number on my bow.

Joe

Really, I'm not sure if Drake serial numbers mean much as far as when the bow was made.

Joe

Got a side view of the whole bow?

I'll take a side view and post it.

My neighbor just looked at the bow. He said, "That's a great bow!" He told me he can easily string the Hunterflites and will string it for me and show me how to use my Selway. Glad I have one experienced archer in town! He has shot these bows many times and told me he loves shooting them at his club. Now, I suppose I'll have him trying to bum it off of me, lol!

Joe

Here's a side view from the original listing. I got a lot of the tape residue off above the feather rest.

Joe

Here's another side view from the auction site.

Joe

Does this mean you might sell me the deathmaster now? Joey

You know, if this bow turns out to be all it's hyped up to be, I might have to build a small shrine to my Deathmaster and just let it sit there in glory. So, the answer is no.

Of course, I listened to Skookum and started watching for a Hunterflite. I needed a super fast bow in a lower poundage. When you're used to the Bow of Bows, you can't accept less than greatness. However, Skookum privately (I really shouldn't tell this) told me 100% of what he posts here is BS. I don't believe it. He was dropping hints about this bow and meant it. My neighbor, a 46 year veteran bowhunter, told me this model is one of the greatest shooting bows he has ever shot! There must be something to these claims. Heck, I'm the one you have to watch out for. 99% of my claims are bogus.

Joe

Kind of a metro-sexual color on those limbs from the looks of it :)

Wow thats beautiful Joe I like it. All done up it will be one beauty too.Looks to me in great shape also as it is.

Meh

" 99% of my claims are bogus." I knew it. Gamemaster bows really are better than Deathmasters. :)

However, my claim about Deathmaster speed can probably be validated. It was fun listening to Bob Savage tell the story about shooting with Jack Howard. I wish I could have recorded the conversation. He told me some great stuff and I forgot a lot of it by the time we ended the conversation. I'm going to call him again and talk about Drake. That should be fun.

Joe

The Hunterflite seems to be Drake's attempt at designing a hunting bow with flight bow technology built it. That's where the speed comes from. I wanted a Drake, because he seems to be the top guy of the last century. I think that because he sent bow limb drawings and also a set of limbs to Bob Savage, as Bob consulted with him. Bob built a super fast bow and I think the limbs came right from Drake. However, there are big differences in limb design between the Deathmaster and the Hunterflite. Both bows have a grip shape that is nearly identical, but the Hunterflite grip is smaller.

When Bob called Ernie Root about using the Necedah design for his bow, Ernie told Bob he got the limb design from Drake. Bob told me he was most impressed with Fred Anderson. Fred responded that he was most impressed with Drake! Notice how the name Drake keeps coming up? Some will say Tom Jennings is most influential, as he really got the compound going. Still, if you look at flight shooting records, there's Tom Jennings shooting with Drake! I'm even suspicious of Drake influence on Larry Hatfield, another great flight shooter.

Joe

I know what you mean about talking with Bob. For a few years before he died I spoke to Jack Howard frequently. The stories and experiences he shared were fascinating and not something that can be found in his old articles. I wish I had recordings of those conversations.

Of course you know I'm busting your chops about which bow is better. Both are fine examples of old bows that can hold their own with any bow made today.

Phil- Yes, if you had recorded, he probably wouldn't have been so open. Bob told me stuff I've never mentioned in the forum, as I don't want to offend other bowyers too much, lol! You're right they're both great designs. I always wanted a Gamemaster Jet. I was a kid back in the 70s, and they were well over $200! However, I didn't want a 66" bow. I admit I was more interested in a 56" Bear A handle TD. The Gamemasters really are beauties.

Joe

motherlode- as for color, the unusual limb color seems to be common for bows back in the 60s. I like it, as it brightens things up. Of course, it will have face paint smeared over it all fall. I really like that yellow wedge in the sight window!

Joe

Good Lord, what recurves. If it were mind I would use my old Kitchen chair or Saw horse method of stringing it. Though you might need two people to slip the string in the nocks... On an old bow which hasn't been strung in a while, I always use a string quite a bit longer than fits the bow. Put in on and let the bow lay for a few days to get some stress back in the limbs..Then put on a proper lenght string and let it set for a few days...Bows get broke by instant stringing and pulling before they acclimate to moisture in your area..Get a 1960 to 66 Robin Hood Catalog for pictures of old time bow stringers similar to the kitchen chair method..

Oldbow- putting on a longer string, just for a little bit, probably is a good idea. That's what I was going to do. I have a string for a 58 inch bow I was going to put on it. I was also going to draw it only a few inches at a time. However, I think moisture won't make a difference. Heck, it sat in delivery trucks for a few weeks on the way from Pennsylvania. By the time I string it, it will have been here for a few days already.

Joe

Nice!

Joe, on the measurement thing... could be it's an AMO measurement which states something to the effect of... and I'm paraphrasing.... "bow length is specified as 3" longer than the string which braces it to the proper length." In other words, the length of the string plus 3"... regardless of what the bow actually measures.

How long is the string that came with it?

Pennsylvania? You took it from right under my nose. :)

That bow was made before AMO. Chances are that a 58"AMO string will be too long. It's easy to measure from nock shoulder to nock shoulder along the belly to find what the "AMO" length of the bow is.

Never mind. I went back and noticed you already measured the bow.

Jeff- it came with a 50" string. Skookum says it looks like a 1959 to 1962 bow.

Phil- A 58" string would be too long. If I had put one on, it would have been just to adjust my stringer with the old tissue paper in the cup trick and not have to bend the bow much to start out. I measured the bow in standard AMO fashion, just as you say, and it is exactly 56". Had this bow been made in AMO times, it would have been marked 56". My neighbor did not measure it and blurted out, "It IS 54"!" It's not. I'll show him tomorrow. I'm just going to go for a starting brace height of 6.5". That was advised by both Skookum and Dire Wolf.

Phil, I realized I was stealing it out from under both you and George. It's from East Greenville, PA. If the limbs are twisted (they look perfectly straight unstrung) I'll be the one wishing I hadn't bid! Actually, I'd massage out twist and shoot the bow.

Joe

frisky, that recurve design is what harry used on his flight bows. the wedge is in there to provide some lateral stability so the recurve doesn't "noodle" around when you string the bow. he took no pity on people that were not familiar with turkish bows and how to string them. since i never designed a bow with that type recurve, you can rest assured i never copied harry. he was one of a kind for sure!!! congrats on your new bow. i'm sure you will love it!

Very nice bow!

Thanks everyone for the compliments, lol!

Larry- Sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting you copied old Harry (may the Lord have mercy on his soul) I wasn't. I just figured the old guy showed you a flight trick or two. He seemed to be the type to share.

I see what you're talking about when you say Turkish style limbs, lol! He had to beat the Turks and you know he was strongly influenced by their design. I'm going to be super careful about stringing the bow. Skookum has warned me. The limbs seem far more curved then they look in photos.

I'm also going to finally spend a lot of time with your Hunter and get it shooting up to par. It had a slippery grip that twisted in my hand when I was sweaty. I put on a leather bow saddle and it's great! A real beauty to look at too (95' model).

Joe

try putting the bow behind your legs at the knee area while sitting down. the grasp the limbs a few inches below the nocks and pull both limbs forward and have someone put the string on. this will lesson any strain on your body and let you ease the bow to a strung position slowly as you watch to see if there is twist in the limbs. if so, you can bring the limbs forward again and have your helper remove the string. if all looks well you merely slide the bow down to the floor and step out of the string. safe for you and the bow!

I'll take a note on that method for the future. Problem is, I rarely have a helper around. Except for the guy across the street who's gone all the time, most of the folks I know don't know anything about bows or are too old to even bend down to slide on a string, lol! For now, if I can't get used to the Selway, I'm building a wall stringer. That should give great control.

Joe

I would be interested to see the results if you shoot the bow thru a chrono. I have never seen chrono results from a "Holy Grail" or "Bow of Bows".

East greenville thats between Phil and I but thats ok you can have it I can't get them all now I do realise. I looked at mine again and those tips are very small on the one I just got. It came with a string and I strung it and pulled it back carefully when I first got it upon removing from the box. Now I am worrried I guess I should have left it strung to get the stress back in it for a few days after listening to whats being said.

I use the push pull methoud a lot on lighter bows but was afraid to use it on this bow with the tips thus using stringer. I just tried to string it back up buy the push pull and had to let off and felt pain in my back. I think this bow might be 69 inchs to I have to measure. No wonder I used the stringer she's a long one and those limb tips sweep back at the tip thinking this is a fast one too maybe? Its a lighter weight bow I suspect was a target bow someone had sites on this seen by the little holes where a site could be?

I like the red glass and when this is redone it probably will really stand out prettier than my other one maybe.

A fine looking old bow.

Real nice piece of history.

Enjoy.

Be careful, you'll shoot your eye out. Nice bow Frisky. My friend had one for sale a couple of years ago at BBTC.

hogs can see turquoise

That wedge lamination is interesting--how long does it measure? A local bowyer named Sterling Jensen in northern Utah used the same feature in his bows which are reported to be very fast. He may have had a connection with Harry Drake through the flight shooting circles. I believe Drake's bows may have that tip wedge, too. Does anyone know?

Sterling passed away some years ago and I only know of him through acquaintances who have one of his bows.

owned a few in my time...

Sweet!

Kodiak- that's quite a bow! A real beauty! We'll have to start an elite club. However, your bow does lack the maple riser wedge and possibly the blue glass. It might not be among the Grail bows. Oh what the heck, we'll call our club the Holy Grail Bow Shooters, HGBS, and let you in.

Joe

Buzz- historical value played a big role in my choosing this bow. I wanted a Drake.

Joe

Backcountry- i'll post the wedge lamination length today. Gotta measure it.

joe

Just found out Ernie Root used the "power wedge" too.

Joe

Now thats really beautiful Rich and wouldn't mind having one of those models.

Sipsey river- I might get a chance to chrono my bows this spring, as the guy across the street is a member in a big club and wants me to shoot there once in a while. I tend to shy away from crowds and might not go though. I might have to get my own chrono.

Joe

When I was in the business I bought and sold a lot of bows. I always heard "this is a fast bow," this is the fastest bow I ever shot" etc. I bought a chrono and for a couple of years I shot almost all thru the chrono. What I found was there was almost no difference between any of them in brute speed. Then I began recording the speeds, bow weight, arrow weight etc. When I compared all bows, recurves, longbows, low poundage, high poundage etc I found that the most efficient bow for feet per second per pound of bow was the Bear Super Kodiak. I have to add that the difference was very small but the Bear ended up on top. I probably had a list of close to 200-250 different bows tested including what I thought was the "fastest", my A&H ACX CS. My study was not scientific but it did include a lot of new and old bows.

Glad your happy you found a bow you like??? I'm happy with what I got!

Frisky Joe:

Thanks for the reply. Does anyone else find it interesting that the Drake-Root-Jensen flight-shooting connection all used or experimented with the "power wedge" lamination in the tips of their bows?

Following Sterling Jensen's influence, Bill Dorsch of Full Draw Custom Bows in Boise, ID uses a carbon power wedge in his bows. In his brochure and website, he claims they "shoot like a 'son- of-a bee-**ch'". I guess that's good?!

Also, I have a bow stringing technique that might work for you. You just back up against a wall and raise one knee, placing your foot flat against the wall. Your knee becomes a fulcrum. Then with the lower limb tip blocked on the floor so it doesn't slip forward (different ways you could do this)and with inside of the bow handle against your raised knee, you pull straight back on the upper limb and slip the upper string loop over the tip into place.

Sipsey- I've pondered your study in the past and have no reason to doubt your results. I think to find the fastest bows, you have to look at flight designs, as they'll be fastest. I once read where a guy took his collection of Bear recurves out and shot for distance. His 76er shot right in there with the others. I can't remember if he had a Super Kodiak. I have two 76ers. I shot one for my first 7 hunting seasons. I considered it to be slightly slower than a Grizzly. Speed wise, in my hands, they were pretty much the same. My Deathmaster blows the socks right off of it! However, it is 4 pounds heavier in draw weight. I'll try to chrono my three fastest bows and compare them to the 76er, all using an arrow of the same grains per pound of pull and all with similar strings.

Joe

Fyi, on of these just posted on the big site.

Yes, he lowered the opening bid to $300. It's probably worth it, but I paid under $200. His first came on the day after I bought mine. I wouldn't have given him $350. Not even $300, but that's because of my budget. I had to be under $200. A few extra scratches meant nothing to me, as I plan to hunt with the bow. I hope his sells. There's also a great looking Browning on the site, a Fury I.

Joe

I will add that I did test any "flight" bows. Never took one in on trade or even saw one used for "flight" shooting but I understand your point.

Right. When I speak of flight bows, it's a personal categorization. Not something recognized by the archery community. Of course, we have real flight bows and specialized arrows we don't hunt with. The Deathmaster caught my attention when Steve Gorr spoke of it in relation to flight shooting with heavy arrows. Drake put his flight limb design into the Hunter Flite, thus the name. Any hunting bows that are associated with flight shooting get my attention. That's why I once searched for info on Bears associated with distance shooting. Larry Hatfield's longbow gets my attention when he set a record with it.

Joe

Backcountry- Sorry, I forgot to give you the "power wedge" measurement. They are about 7" long, running from the tip down. They really feather thin.

Joe

I think Holcome can make any one you want it would be like having a bow on steroids then.LOL

nice bow,whatcha gonna hunt with a blue bow?

That blue will be covered in camo face paint. At the end of the season, I just wipe it off and am back to blue. No sense using spray paint, when Walmart dollar a tube kids' face paint works great. In fact, after Halloween, I get it for 25 cents a tube.

Joe

Here is the Holy Grail of bows shown strung. We're getting closer to actually shooting it!

The Legend

Two of the best! Deathmaster on left. Drake Hunter-flite on right.

The Legend

Three beautiful risers! Top to Bottom: Drake Hunter-flite 56"- Bob Savage Deathmaster 60"- 95' Howatt Hunter. Now you know why they call me The Legend!

The Legend

Way to go, Frisky Joe! Nice set of bows. Looking forward to hearing how your Drake shoots.

I've got my hands full with a couple of little projects myself.

Frisky So I guess from your post that you kinda like your New Bow a little bit!!! ;>)))

Ole thumper

This baby os gonna rock. At full draw, the limbs have a profile I've never seen before. They kind of come straight back at the working section. Kind of square and look menacingly fast!

I dunno, Frisky. It's a little too plywoody-looking, isn't it? Somebody might mistake it for an old Widow. That would be a shame.

Frisky, To be 100% honest I would rather have a Paul Bunyan than that Drake.

Wait a minute now. It has laminations, but is light as a feather, unlike those cement- block heavy Widows. It weighs 1 pound 5 oz.

Slade- you must be on dope? I wouldn't pay $20 for a pallet-load of Paul Bunyans. The Legend only shoots the best! If you don't have a Drake, you've got nothing! I can't believe all the underlying jealousy that springs up at this site. Very sad indeed.

The Legend

I got it! The limb profile at full draw is that of a Turkish flight bow. Really cool! Why the Good Lord above decided to bless me with all the greatest bows of legendary bowyers is a mystery I'll never figure out. Of course, it could have something to do with higher levels of intelligence. You have the Paul Bunyan and Widow shooters at the lower end of the scale, and then you have me at the other end.

The Legend

I think everybody is waiting to hear how it shoots..... : )

Have to say the Drake has a pretty riser makes the others look like kindling....but then again a Bear in Grayling Green does too.

He doesn't have to shoot it. It just looks fast.

Phil- I kid you not. At full draw, it's the fastest looking bow I've ever seen! Nothing quite like it! I am going to take a few shots into the snow just to check for hand shock. I have it braced low at 6.75". I'll go to 7" if I have to do so, but the bow is said to like a low brace height. That gives it an extra-long power stroke and even more speed! When the snow melts, I'll get my range set up and make a video shooting it.

Joe

Joe

You have no idea how happy I am for you.

Whenever someone finds just what they want it tickles me.

I am happy for you!

Congratulations.

A legend in his own eyes her fellas. That bow is pretty, but pretty doesnt always put meat in the freezer.

Frank- I'm glad someone out there appreciates folks who appreciate the historically significant bows. Then, you have old Slade, upset because he doesn't have a Deathmaster or a Drake. All he has is a crappy old Paul Bunyan, a bow unworthy of consideration. I sit back and examine the "power wedges" in the last 7" of limb and ask, does Slade have such wedges in his bows? Of course not!

The Legend

Hope you didn't pay more than $50.00!!!! Ha, just kidding. It sure is fun when you get a "find". Congrats.

Hawk- I was hoping to get this Drake for $150. Some jerk bid it up and forced me to pay $194.49, but it's still a steal.

The Legend

I dont own a Paul Bunyan, LOL im just razzing you Frisky, If your happy with the bow that is all that matters. I currently shoot Wing, Herters, and Ben Pearson. They all have a cool history and shoot great.

I know you're razzing me Slade. I enjoy getting razzed, lol! By the way, Slade was my favorite group, lol!

The Legend

My list of inferior bows:

1. All Bears (except 56" TD)

2. All Pearsons

3. All Shakespeare and Roots

4. All Herters

5. All Wings

6. All Widows

7. All Howatts

The list goes on and on. There are only a few out there that make my top performers list. So, pay attention to this thread, as you'll see the few good ones in action soon.

The Legend

Took a few shots into the snow tonight with the Drake. No delaminations or anything like that. It was a bit noisy but I expected that. I didn't have an arrow rest in place or string silencers or even brush buttons. Also had the low brace height. When I get the shorter string, I'll use it as my main string, raise the brace to 7" and add the brush buttons. I'll use them as silencers too. That should take care of vibration.

Joe

"Took a few shots into the snow tonight with the Drake."

Did it crack the 200 fps barrier ?

Or did it just crack, period?! Hope not!

I too like the looks of them old Drakes, curious on how it will perform. I'm starting to search for one but not sure about drawing a short bow and how it will stack. Thus far I only own two inferior bows, a '57 Howatt Palomar Eldorado and a '64 Wing White Wing. Both are 69" and draw smooth to 29"+.

I couldn't tell how fast the bow shot, as I was shooting about 13 grains per pound and downward into the snow at 3 feet. I was just making sure it was solid. It was.

WW- No stacking at all to my 28" draw. No finger pinch either. However, this one is 56" and not the usual 54". That should make it smoother.

Joe

Bottom line for me is none of them shoot faster than the speed of sound. My main criteria for any Bow is that it is quiet. That is a unique riser tho I'll give ya that. But to make up a list of inferior Bows IN YOUR opinion, not cool IMHO. Whatever turns your crank but I'd rather just hunt. Congrats on your find, enjoy.

Gun- I'm now of the opinion that quietness is not as important as we think. After I weed out the junk bows (99.9% of bows) I end up with a couple of speedsters that defy the quickness of a deer. However, I find loud bows annoying, so I disqualify them from consideration.

Now, my list of junk bows is presented as a public service for those seeking to dethrone me as holder of both the Bow of Bows and the Holy Grail of Bows. I'm just trying to be helpful! I had no idea my list would be cause for irritation.

The Legend

Gun, just having your favorite bow maker dissed by Frisky is sort of an honor. Just humor the guy and let him have his little fun. Pretty soon you'll catch on and realize Frisky likes to poke us with sticks and the rest of us enjoy returning the favor. Totally cool, IMHO.

Backcountry, I was only kidding as you know. I felt kind of slighted that it took so long for someone to comment on my offensive list, lol!

The Legend

I know, Frisky! And I was disappointed that my Quillian Patriot didn't make your list--I coulda gone 3 for 3.

Keep up the good public service work--some people just don't have as good of a sense of humus as others and you need to keep 'em on their toes. You know the type--mainly reformed wheel shooters and now latter day Widow guys (wink!)

Yes, those compound perverts and Widow jerks need a good ribbing now and then. I really laugh when I see photos in the catalog Black Widow sends to me, of some dude, standing there in his glory, one foot on a rock, as a dead water buffalo (tame cattle) lies before him with three arrows sticking out of its butt, lol! I'm gonna post pics of me, standing in my glory with my Holy Grail of Bows in hand! That'll teach 'em!

The Legend

Yeah, and whatever bow(s) Feather Merchant likes should be on your list, too! ...And Mr. Stout's. But then, he's probably owned or shot every bow ever made, so a few, if not all, of his bows probably made your list.

I'm going to a big 3D shoot this afternoon, so maybe I'll get a chance to shoot some other inferior bows. One guy offered to let me try his Widder, but I asked him, "why would I want to?" Another fella (nice guy but mostly a compound shooter) let me take a few shots with his new Predator. I offered to fish it out of the trash can when he decides to throw it away and go 100% compound.

I'd just leave the Widow in there, though.

Frisky I'm over at wing master's house right now and he wants you to know that the TRUE holy grail has indeed been found...here she is behold the PB 100

Frisky I'm over at wing master's house right now and he wants you to know that the TRUE holy grail has indeed been found...here she is behold the PB 100

Stick- you tell your friend I wouldn't buy that PB100 for 10 cents at a flea market!

The Legend

Frisky --- YOU GO BOY !! I'm real happy for you. But my idea of the holy grail would be a Nells Grumley way-back-when ..... happy huntin, oso

Well darn the best laid plans of mice and men. I found a Jack Howard Gamemaster Jet in a small pawn shop in Ohio after paying the 29.50 asking price I was going to ship it to Frisky, now I read he has the Bow of Bows so he probably doesn't need or want it I guess I'll just keep it now. I love your posts Frisky they always make me smile a fellow archer Steve

oso- Grumley and some of those other guys like Cassius Styles, built old-school yew and lemonwood bows. It's important for us to dismiss them as junk. Same with all selfbows. It wasn't until the age of fiberglass that we got serious.

woodshaft- go ahead and keep that Gamemaster Jet. After all, you paid a lot for it, considering what it's worth, lol. Bob Savage already proved they're junk.

The Legend

Frisky, I'll tell you what you DON'T have in your stable of bows and you need at least one to complete the trifecta of superior bows, a nice Tice and Watts Spartan Hunter.

I mentioned before that the Spartan Hunter (in 58" length) was the bow I was looking for when I found the Deathmaster. I rate it quite high. It has to be top 5. It's probably top 3. In time, I will find one and my life will be complete. I'll then be able to rest in peace.

The Legend

You mean like this one? :)

Yep. That's the one! It's not perfect. The guy who who touted it most strongly ended up going over to Drakes. I'm talking about Tink Nathan. Still, it's a good one!

Phil, have you tried the Bateman yet?

Joe

Not yet. Hopefully tomorrow. Will let you know.

OK. I hope the Bateman works. It works perfectly well with my Drake. I get complete coverage of the upper tip, yet still can slide the string in place. The only way it won't work is if the Howard tip is smaller than the Drake. Mine just clears with no room to spare.

Joe

That bow of Phil's is beautiful. Hate to say it, but more so than the holy grail bow. ; )

How does it shoot ?

BTW, just got a Safe-Way bow stringer from Hummingbird Custom Bows, I think it might be the solution for a reformed step-through guy.

I don't think that Spartan Hunter comes close to the beauty of the Grail bow. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the bow holder.

The Legend

I'd say it shoots about the same as a Deathmaster only a bit faster. :)

It is a good bow but I don't know that it's heads above many others. It just shoots nice.

It's better because it was "computer designed" remember? Designed on NSAA's computers. Here's a couple (one is quite ugly since it's factory camo). Neither would win any beauty contests but they were known for their performance, not pulcratude.

50#x58" tiger wood riser and 55#x60" camo riser which has tiger wood underneath.

Ok. Then it's safe for us to drop it out of contention for bow of bow or Holy Grail status. That's just how it goes! As the truth comes out, we weed out the dogs!

The Legend

Lacking Legend, not quite. Your collection is lacking until you own one and you know it.

"It is a good bow but I don't know that it's heads above many others. It just shoots nice."

Phil's admission it's just another bow has lowered its standing. Compare that statement to my reaction the first time I shot a Deathmaster- WOW!

Big difference. I'm now not that sure the Spartan Hunter deserves the reputation. I'll have to think about it for a bit.

The Legend

"Phil's admission it's just another bow has lowered its standing. Compare that statement to my reaction the first time I shot a Deathmaster- WOW!"

Just my humble opinion here, but it sounds like the beginning of a religion !

Sorry Frisky, You edited out part of Phil's post. Here's your edited out part.

"I'd say it shoots about the same as a Deathmaster only a bit faster. :)"

I don't think Phil meant that. That's why I edited it out. I don't think he has had a chance to shoot a Deathmaster.

Catskills- The Deathmaster Cult is sort of a religion. It will soon be known as the Holy Grail Club. A few other bows will be admitted.

Joe

Curious as to the few other admitted bows ? Perhaps the ones in your photo at beginning of this post, just guessing.... : )

Yes. Right now, the Deathmaster Club is the world's most elitist. We thumb our collective blue noses at everyone. However, the Drake Hunter-flites are likely going to be let in. Four others that have a slight chance for admittance are as follows:

Tice and Watts Spartan Hunter 58" only (known for speed but this is suspect)

Groves Spitfire 56" only (known for speed but only with overdraw)

Bear mag TD 56" only (best TD system but a little heavy and slow)

Howard Gamemaster Jet (known for speed but way too long)

There's only a small chance they might be let in.

The Legend

Frisky, I never shot a Deathmaster but I have shot a lot of Gamemasters and Gamemaster Jets which are every bit as fast as a Deathmaster.

I believe your list needs some adjustments. Groves bow are fast. The overdraw makes them faster yet. Gamemasters and Jets are not too long unless the archer is too short. There's nothing suspect about a Tice and Watts.

Since Fasco bought Drake Archery in 1964 and made the Hunter Flight perhaps you should consider adding other Fasco models to the Holy Grail club.

I bought into the "computer-designed" hype of the Tice and Watts fame, spending hard-earned money working a summer job digging utility line (read sewerline) trenches.

It was a 62" 55# stock zebrawood model. Didn't live up to the expectations I had for it. Eventually delaminated and I wasn't overly distressed at my loss. I shoulda just kept my 52# Howatt Hunter and learned how to shoot it better. Didn't realize at the time what I had in the Hunter.

Ventura66- I'm happy to serve ya!

Phil- You can't make the claim that the Gamemaster Jet is as fast as a Deathmaster when we have historical documentation it falls just a little short. Remember that shot across the draw Bob Savage told me about?

The only Fasco bows we're allowing in are Hunter-flites.

FM- I have seen no evidence you've gotten a hog of late. Maybe in years past, but not lately.

The Legend

Ok Backcountry, that adds fuel to kicking out the T & W. Of course, we're talking about the 58" Spartan Hunter. However, if one computer designed bow is a flop, they might all be. As for the Howatt Hunter, it might make the #3 spot but would need a Barbie string. That limits it. Also, at 62", it's a bit long for ground hunting.

The Jet, at 66", is a target bow. It's ok for people who shoot from a standing position. I haven't ruled it out yet. Can't believe Jack Howard lacked the skills to make a short bow.

The Legend

Frisky, Frisky, Frisky...you're going to take the word of Bob over the word of Jack. It says right in the Gamemaster Jet's brochure - World's Fastest Bow. There was no asterisk that said - besides the Deathmaster. And as far as that shot across the draw, seems like Bob aimed higher which doesn't prove his bow shot faster.

Besides, Jack had a great catalog with lots of useful information. I believe I missed Bob's catalog.

Now, as much as I like Black Widows I will agree that they aren't in the same class as the bows we're talking about. Heck, Blackie Schwartz tested them and found they were only a few fps faster than a Bear Takedown. Second tier for sure. But you can bend the limbs on a Black Widow completely in the wrong direction and they wont' break so they should get some points for toughness.

Finally, (for now) a 66" recurve isn't all that big. It's only 3" on each end over a 60" bow. Just think of those poor folks that use a longbow where 66" really is long.

Now that I got the BW and Hill shooters riled up I'm gonna sit back and watch them stammer about how great their bows are. When I get the Gamemaster I'm refinishing done I'll post some photos of the real Holy Grail.

:)

To be 100% honest (as usual) Widows are nothing special. They're for sheeple, people who will follow the Judas goat over a cliff. One night, back in 87', I decided I might return to archery. I had been away a long time. I walked into the local shop and a traditional shoot was going on. I asked the dipsticks what the big name recurves were, explaining I had been out of the sport for 8 years. They said Black Widows and Bighorns. A guy pointed over to a corner and said, "There's a graybark Black Widow right there." Piece of plywood just sat there doing nothing. Glad I never touched it and contaminated my pure hands. That night, I made a good decision and bought a Bear #2 grip for $8.99 to put on my 76er. I didn't return to archery until 2002. Wasn't impressed with Widows or Bighorns that night, and I still ain't.

The Legend

I told Bob the ads for Jack's bow claimed it was the world's fastest bow. I asked Bob, What do you think of that? In a low voice, he grumbled something like, "When Jack was visiting, I shot his Jet behind my place and wasn't impressed with the speed." That's when he went on to tell me something about the two of them shooting into a skull, lol! I have to call him this week.

The Legend

Not many folks will talk to me on the phone or in person, but Bob had his daughter get ahold of me by email so he could get my number. He knows I know great bows!

The Legend

Bob will talk with him only because he doesn't have caller ID. As egotistical (I mean that in a positive way) as bowyers can be I would never expect Bob, Jack, Ken Beck or anyone else to say someone else's bow was faster. That would be up for us to decide. And I guess the only fair way would be a shooting machine and chronograph. Even then the bows would have to be close in weight and truly splitting hairs.

I do believe my 75 Super Diablo may be faster than both the Deathemaster or Gamemaster. Some of those older Howatts are definitely in the top tier.

Feather Merchant - You know the saying "...they broke the mold..."? That would be true of Jack and Bob's bows. They may be old, they may be relics and it definitely takes a special person to appreciate them but there is nothing built today that can compare. I like BW bows but comparing a new BW to a Howard or Savage bow is like comparing a new Corvette to a 67 Fastback Corvette. Newer and more modern isn't always better. :)

LOL! Just because I know fast bows to the point where I am known around the world as future Hall-of-Famer, The Legend, is no reason for Widow shooters to get so upset. Like I said, I'm just glad I didn't spoil the purity of my hands by touching a Widow.

I doubt a Super D is much faster than a Hunter and the Hunter is slower than a Deathmaster. We also have to look at hand shock and noise levels. The greatest bow has to have it all.

The Legend

You guys be crackin' me up!

I needed the chuckles, especially after shooting so poorly in the 3D shoot yesterday. Of course, it's hard to be too upset about the shoulder-to-shoulder crowding issue, the shoot brought in tons-o-cash so the club could afford all those new Reinharts.

Friksie, I know they're not you're style, but I took a couple of pokes with Predator last week. I'd take one of those over a Widow any day since I don't need to club hogs with them like our friend from Jawja!

Stay warm, all.

It's not Frisky's fault that you cannot maintain a car. He does have good taste in bows.

My hands are in fine condition thanks to lotions I posted about. See hand lotion thread.

Backcountry- I'm a fan of the Predator. Somewhere in there, it has Deathmaster influence. It also has Super Kodiak inspiration.

The King of Kings

LOL! I don't claim to be God. I'm thinking more like Ozymandias.

Thee King of Kings

".....explore the fate of history and the ravages of time—that all prominent men and the empires they build are impermanent and their legacies fated to decay and oblivion. Shelley and Smith both contrast this fate to the lasting power of art."

The above was written about Ozymandias. Long after the bowyers are dust, the art they left behind in the form of Deathmsters and Hunter-flites and Gamemasters will live on.

The Legend

Your Holy Grail is on ebay right now for 25 dollars

I watch ebay closely and there is no such bow on right now. Only in your wildest dreams!

The Legend

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.'

the holy grail of bows is whatever you want it to be! have fun..this is what it is all about!

Some folks do get wrapped up in the "best". I've had many "best" bows over the years, depending on where I was in my archery life.

I enjoy tweaking folks a bit when they get too serious.

Thanks for the history lesson cool bows guys!! Now kill something with it!!

Good Hunting Rob!!

Bow envy runs deep in this house of horror. A guy comes on to the Wall, presents the finest bows ever built and is dragged through the mud for it. However, his antagonists haven't been dragging many hogs through the mud. A sad case indeed.

The Legend

Give it time. It won't be long and it will get better. I have a better fitting string coming. As soon as it warms up (below zero lows through March 7th predicted) I'll be shooting the Grail and reporting for your enjoyment. I see this as an educational thread. You can learn what bows are truly the best instead of being bombarded by threads on junk bows. We already have Howards and Tice & Watts and Deathmasters and Drakes!

The Legend

Frisky I want to thank you, Phil, Big Bulls6, Feather Merchant, and everyone else who replied to this thread. It has been informative, entertaining and just great fun. The wit is a sharp as one of my broadheads. Great job everyone!!! I am still laughing.

Woodshaft- we've been doing our best for you! This thread needs more specifics on these old bows and less hype. For my part, I plan to provide information on how the Drake behaves and see if it's as fast as Fred Anderson claims they are. If my neighbor has access to a chronograph, I will get real world speed results on my bows. My neighbor has a 20 year old Blacktail that would be interesting to test. Others can fill us in on their bows. About the only bow we'll exclude (regardless of what George says) are the Paul Bunyans, because I wouldn't pay 2 cents per pound of pull to test shoot one of those jalopies.

The Legend

I second Mr. Woodshaft. All those in favor say "aye."

For as much grief we like to give Frisky over his bow quest, it is noteworthy that he acknowledges Fred Anderson as his inspiration for obtaining the Drake. Maybe mischievous Mr. Anderson is having a good laugh for sending Frisky on a snipe hunt, but I doubt it. I'm glad we still have some of the old guard around to look to for advice and insight about the bows from the golden era of what we now refer to as traditional archery.

Now, whatever fine attributes the Drake may have, it would undoubtedly come up short as a weapon compared to a Widow in this respect: if Frisky should happen to run out of arrows, as is likely, after shooting and probably wounding, a big Jawja hog, a Widow would make a much better club for finishing it off!

Fred Anderson made many of the Hunter-flites. He knows bows. His Holy Grail is a particular yew bow, but that's because he doesn't worry much about speed. He just wants a show bow. I won't mention the name of it so nobody jumps on one before Fred.

Widows are nice bows if you like heavy and hum-drum. I like light, fast and historically significant!

The Legend

For a lot of people, one of MISTER Anderson's bows would be the Holy Grail. I was lucky to get to admire one for a couple of hours as I visited with its owner. Mr. Anderson, sir, knows how to build bows and his workmanship is impecca... er, sorry, that's kind of a big word...I mean top-notch.

Don't discount those Black Widow bows, there Frisky--they have their place (see my post above.) That's probably why they're so popular down south. You might want to have one or two along if you go on a hawg hunt with Feathers. Maybe he'll will let you borrow his, or more likely, rent it to you.

Be sure to arrange payment ahead of time--price would probably go up drastically if you need it in a hurry...like right after you poke a big tusker with your Drake and it's coming after you!

I seriously doubt I'll be going hog hunting with any of those shady characters down south. They're more dangerous than the hogs! I'd rather run into Mick Dodge out on a backcountry trail than FM!

I agree that a Skookum might well be the Holy Grail, but only if it has blinding speed.

I might get a better fitting string today. Am going to stay with B50 for now. Gonna put on those new brush buttons and see if they'll do double duty as silencers too. The hollow construction looks like it might work.

The Legend

I've been musing over life's mysteries and have come to the conclusion we are a society of wanters, not needers. None of my best bows were needed. I wanted them. If I had stuck with my 76er and spare pair of limbs, added the $9 grip and $10 target riser, I'd have had two bows in two lengths and three poundages. Quite enough to hunt and target shoot. However, I would have had a couple of dogs in the speed department. That didn't sit well with my fast, smooth and quiet image, so I got the fastest, smoothest and quietest recurves the world has ever known and, in doing so, became The Legend! The King of Kings! The Master of Disaster! So, you can stick with your Widows and Borders and Bears and Paul Bunyans and the like, but don't go invading my thread with how great they are.

The Legend

Funny you felt compelled to add that clarification, Feathers. I figgered you meant you'd sic Bodemon on Frisky all along!

That way it would be a fair fight, knowin' how ferocious Frisky can be when he gets cornered.

Got the Grail ready to shoot tonight, but I'll probably wait for spring rather than shoot in the basement.

I have not mentioned it, but the Grail does have a tiny flaw. Along the top and edge of the lower limb is a tiny nick in the glass. It's only one to two mm in size but can be felt. It's a tiny fraction of an inch deep. Very hard to see. It does not look like something that would develop into a small splinter, but I might put a speck of superglue on it and quickly wipe it off. Repeat and then sand with 1200 grit until I can't feel anything. Do you think I should just leave it alone considering it's so tiny? Even rubbing a finger over it, it's hard to feel anything, but it's there.

The Legend

You mean you haven't shot it yet???

I think you should glue it. No sense in giving any problems a head start.

I think I will glue it. It's tiny, so it would be hard to tell it was glued. Everyone who has looked at it said I was crazy to even give it a second thought it was so small. They said to leave it alone, but tiny dings can become big slivers. This is a 50 year old bow.

I have taken two shots and will take a few more today. Remember, we have near 7 foot snow banks all around and it's 30 below in the windchill right now. Even the snow pack is at 20 inches. Today, I'll post a pic of the bow all set up for action.

The Legend of Legends

Frisky, take Phil's advice but use a tiny drop of Loctite 420. It will soak in to any hidden frayed fibers and is really hard when dry. No need to wipe--that might smudge up the finish. When totally dry you can sand it with successively finer grits until that little nick is unnoticeable.

Fisky I have a new fast flight string for it that should add a few fps. You want it?

I believe that the ball peen hammer treatment is considered standard procedure for fixing nicks in Widow bows--although I've heard they are so tough they probably never get any.

Woodshaft- thanks for the offer, but I decided to stick with B50. Also, this is the most difficult bow in the world to get the correct string length for. Four inches shorter than bow length doesn't cut it for this baby.

I'll go ahead and try the hammer method on the limb. These bows were made to take a beating. Then, I'll repair with Locktite 420. That crap is expensive!

The Legend

Expensive, yes. But a little dab'll do ya.

I might get that 420. My first bow was a solid fiberglass Stemmler. It developed a huge crack and I retired it. I could repair it with 420 and shoot it again. However, since it makes a Paul Bunyan look like a custom bow, I don't know why I'd want to be caught dead shooting it. That said, this ding is so tiny, I might just use the tip of a toothpick to put a dab of Two-Ton epoxy on it, wipe off and let dry. That would do the trick.

The Legend

I'd send you a couple drops of 420 if I can find something to put it in...maybe a coffee can or something.

Many people in this forum are so stupid, they'll try to play footnotes on a shoehorn. They blow their money on Locktite 420 and tell you there is no alternative. HOGWASH I SAY! I just ordered an alternative that is as good and much cheaper than 420. It will work for three repairs I need to make.

The reason Locktite works, is it is a super thin super glue that wicks into tiny cracks and crevices. The cheaper crap you buy at Walmart is medium wicking and won't penetrate as well as super thin. I researched the subject and found two alternatives at around half the price of the sale price of Locktite. I don't want an ounce of glue. I ordered a 1/2 ounce for $5.87 shipped. After I use it, I'll report on it in a separate thread.

The Legend

Well...if I just wanted to plug a couple screw holes in a Widow riser, I might use whatever it is that Frisky just mail-ordered. But if I had me a super dyna- whopping holy grail bow--for argument's sake let's say a Drake Hunter-Flite, I'd use something really good and known to work for its intended application. Nothing less than 420 would do. Ya gotta ask, WWFD (what would Fred do)?

Ok. I see your point. The Grail deserves the best. However, I'm known for my public services around here and believe, considering the minor nature of the flaw, (so small you can barely see it) I decided to use an alternative and report. I have full confidence in the product I'll be using after I read reviews and checked company info.

The Legend

I used to fly R/C airplanes and there are good inexpensive cya glues in three viscosities available in hobby stores. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on "The Grail". In fact my wife uses them on her broken finger nails.

Yep! I forgot the ones sold by Hobby linc and other hobby shops. That makes three super thin alternatives to 420. I researched all of them today and they'll do anything Loctite 420 can accomplish. All these glues are often stronger than the materials being glued. There is even one that is slightly thicker than the thinest but still wicks good and has a clear, flexible bond. That one might be best for bow limbs, as it's tops on fiberglass and hardwood.

The Legend (I'm getting sick and tired of typing The Legend)

Frisky, my favorite bow needs dissin as it is just a girly bow. Behold the Sanders Swift at 69" AMO and 40# a wimpy 203fps at 8gr.pp.

The Sanders Swift is not worthy of this thread but is superior to the Paul Bunyan if it will make you feel better. I wouldn't pay $1.35 plus tax for that thing if I found it in a convenience store bargain bin. It's too long, too wimpy, too slow and a lefty to boot.

The Legend

Just an old chicken bow the Col. Sanders whipped up then, sexy like a long-legged blonde and sinister to boot ;^)

LOL! Yes, that's a fine description. An old chicken bow. If you can come up with evidence it's a super bow, we'll give it consideration. If George pipes in that it's a great bow, it's automatically disqualified.

The Legend

Peleg, your Sanders gal bow is certainly easy on the eyes, as you pointed out. Even Frisky has to agree.

What else can you tell us about these sweet-looking babes...er, I mean, bows?

They show up seldom and usually demand high dollar as there is a following. In fact in the past couple of years an ebay alert was setup whereas they send me an email when one shows up. Unfortunately I pushed a wrong button in my original search and it emails me when one sells, oh well.

Mine has a sticker from Cumberland Valley Archery Supply,Carlisle PA. I have found little as to their history other than a few old advertising pictures. Wish I knew more as they are a pretty bow, and fast smooth shooters.

Frisky would just call it plywood as there is 22 lamination's in the riser.

I see that I missed another closing on ebay while back, real purty Swift but lighter weight, a Classic model with even longer legs and shapely torso, and a hunting model that looks mighty fast unstrung. Perhaps I should reset those notifications. There is a big ole target model that is listed at dream price and expect it will stay awhile.

Here is one I missed :(

Lot of laminations in that piece of plywood. Interesting!

The Legend

Long riser short limb make fast bow, light limb tip mass with woven glass for low side to side movement as well. They hold their own with a modern carbon foam limb for pound to pound speed. A hunting model that was missed as well in the past month still 68" but looks speedy unstrung.

Interesting bow for sure, but I'm going to have to dismiss them as overly long. Much more of a target bow.

The Legend

Ok. I checked out the Swifts. Gotta say they are real beauties! However, we must classify them as target bows, not something to take afield.

The Legend

High maintenance trophy bows? Sign me up!

Gotta say Frisky, am a sucker for green glass and the thoughtful use of accenting wood color lamination's with the curves of the Holy Grail bow. As a still hunter I find no hindrance in the length of the Swift. Seems as though Samick might have copied the design with the Stingray in 58", wouldn't mind trying one myself.

Nothing wrong with taking a female to McDonalds. Saves you money you can spend on bows.

That Swift is no competition for my Grail. I'll challenge one any day of the week!

The Legend

You can tell how smart a person is by the bow he shoots and the food he eats. Someone who shoots the Holy Grail and likes McDonalds is a lot smarter than someone who shoots a Widow and goes to swanky, over-priced joints for poor quality food.

The Legend

Still waiting to see Phil's bow, all restored and strung.

It's gonna be a couple weeks at least. Need to finish stripping and need a break in the weather to spray it.

I was just wondering how many of you guys live in Colorado ? bd

Weather is holding a lot of us up Phil. It's snowing out here. Another 1 to 4 inches to add to the mess. This morning was 15 below. Now, we're up to 12 above. Looks like we'll hit the high 20s in a week and then maybe start to think about spring!

Joe

Peleg- The Swift has similarity to the Samick Stingray, as you state, but otherwise the Samick is something of an insult to the Swift. Very nice bow you have there!

Runner- We define target bows as bows used to shoot in target competition as opposed to bows built to hunt. Now, the Gamemaster Jet is a hunting bow, but due to length, we've downgraded it here.

Joe

The Grail is more of a turquoise. It's not a powder or baby blue. More of a blue-green. It's a true hunting bow. Look at photos of target archers, standing upright with their feminine "slimline" bows. They are not hunting weapons. They're just target bows. No real value except as paper punchers. Nobody in their right mind hunts with one, though there are folks who do so. We keep target bows out of this thread as much as possible. You don't look at target bows when you're searching for the Holy Grail.

The Legend

This bow might be the one to set the bowhunting world on fire! It has the potential. That glass color contained 10% more speed than any other color or so I'm told.

The Legend

Now unload those "relics" & get yourself a Toelke & you can do away with those "what are they called" oh thats right brush buttons, with a Toelke you wont need them ,, even with a FF string .......

Hey Frisky just wanted to say I am sorry I was not there to watch you shoot the Holy Grail like we planned. You see a couple of weeks ago I went to my doctor for a check up you know old guys like us need that. Since I was not going to work I drank a few more Buds and half a bottle of Jack D then off to the Doc's I went wife #4 drove me. Things were going well when doc asked me how are thing going? You know me Frisky I get all excited and loud when I start talking about stickbows! I am telling Doc about my buddy the Legend who is the King of Kings and how he has found the Holy Grail again & that he and I are going to Jawja land and slay some pigs!!! Bout this time Doc leaves the room bathroom break I figure well he comes back with his psychiatrist buddy and 2 cops great they must be bowhunters too. I love to talk with fellow archers. Doc ask me to tell the story again and I lay it on thick I tell him I know the King of Kings and we often drink together (ice tea) since I don't know the cops that well. When I get to the part about going to Jawja Land with the Holy Grail and Savage Deathmaster to kill some pigs Then the big cop knocks me down and the little one a Barny Fife type shoots me with his Tazer several times WOW that hurt I wanted to scream (like you do Frisky when you string up your 33 pounder) but I couldn't well then Barney starts kicking my head that's when I passed out. When I wake up I am in the hospital my head is a hurting but the grub is real good and I got some pretty nurses always coming buy and giving me pills and sticking needles in my bottom. The young doc here asked me if I would benefit from Rehab and I say Heck Yea. I would love to go the rehab I think that where cool guys like Bowdoc, Droptine59, Dire Wolf and Ben help people fix up their old bows to look like new again. Darn it Frisky I was wrong the place they sent me to had nothing to do with fixing up old bows. Everybody here is uptight, nervous and screaming at the drop of a hat (I think they must all shoot compounds with sights and releases) My new roommate calls himself Lucifer and tells me he is the King of Kings I try to tell him no its my buddy Frisky the Legend who is the true king of kings well he would not listen and things got out of hand I had it under control with Lucifer on the ground & I was chocking him when one of his minions hit me with a trash can. Well all heck broke loose then people yelling and screaming, nurses doctors and aides holding me down sticking needles in my butt again. When I woke up I got my own private room but I am tied down on my Bed and can't move. This real nice Doctor Phil Magistro talks to me a lot. Now he is a swell fella & bowhunter he told me he shoots a Gamemaster Jet. He let me call Feather Merchant who is taking care of my place and feeding the horse and dog he told me looks like wife #4 took off. I been calling you every day Frisky but you don't answer your phone. I did get in touch with Backcounty and he is going to help me get outta here. Oh don't come here to visit me Frisky Dr Phill Magistro said if he meets the Legend he will place him in the room next to mine and give him one of those jackets with the sleves tied to the back (no way can you draw your bow with that on Frisky I know). One last thing stay away from Backcounty and mail his hammer back to him when your done fixing your limb tip he is madder than a rabid dog. He said he is tired of fixing your mistakes and you have an a adverse effect on the simpleminded (I am not sure but me may have been talking about me) He was gonna do something with that hammer when he found you. I told him it aint your fault we can't help but get excited when we talk about stickbows. Dr Phil told me today it don't really matter what bow a man shoots what matters is that he cares about shooting each arrow smart fella. Well Frisky I kinda hate to ask but you think you could sell the Drake I may need a little loan soon Buddy. Your friend woodshaft

I just put the brush buttons on. Might post a pic tonight if I remember. They're big, bright red buttons. However, they're also hollow to cut weight to 23 grains. Brush buttons are used for going though heavy brush with recurve bows. Does not matter the brand of bow. Good ones also quiet a bow. These are neat, because they can be moved down the string and used as silencers. I'll report on them when I get out and shoot. We'll be at 15 below again this weekend and then the warmup begins.

The Legend

Woodshaft- I ain't selling nothing, lol, and you should be locked up in a padded cell with wife #4 and Feather Merchant (toss in Big Jim too) and the key should be given to me.

The King of Kings (A.K.A. The Legend)

Many people will come to appreciate my contributions to this site when the weather improves and I can video tape the Holy Grail of Bows and the Bow of Bows. All you loud mouths out there spouting off about how great your bows are but never offering proof. I talk the talk and walk the walk! Videos real soon.

The Legend

Woodshaft, that just about summed up my day, too, but give a holler an' me an' Feathers'll come bust you outta that joint. Sounds like nurse Cratchett might need some work, too, much like Frisky's bow. That's why I pack the ball peen.

Anyway, on my way to the big 3D shoot in Vernal, seems like I went through three times zones. I wouldna done it except I told my boss it would be a good place to meet folks what might be interested in habitat conservation. And there's a great bunch of trad shooters. One feller makes a nice long bow which have a big following. I'll try and get some bow pics for you guys.

Almost forgot to mention I drove right through Heber on my way over here--that is Feather's favorite Utah town and hangout when he comes out west to shoot elk off gentlemen ranchers' grazing allotments.

Will post more later, need some shut eye if I'm gonna rally in the morning.

I can shoot the bow indoors, but with my refined skills, I'd be breaking all my arrows by shooting tiny groups. However, once the snow melts, I can build my private range and quickly make up for lost time. No sense putting target bags out on top of snow when it will soon start to melt and create lakes all over the place. In a few days, our snow pack will be 22 inches with 6 foot drifts. That's a lot of water to be released. I just bide my time and let it melt and thaw the ground. Right now, the frost is over 5 feet deep.

The Mighty Nimrod of the North