Limb spec's will vary,as a general rule you gain 1# for each inch the riser is shorter.But also you have limb pad angle that will affect he poundage also.I have a 17" metal riser ILF and have limbs that are 38# on a 25" riser.But they measured 52# on my 17" risered bow due to the limb pad angle.You can buy limbs that are marked for a 17" riser from Lancaster,but you still have the limb pad angle.Most ILF risers,the limb bolts usally have a set screw that locks the bolt down from moving.Loosen that set screw and then adjust the limb bolt.You can usally get a 4-5# adjustment from the limb bolt.You don't tighten the limb bolts all the way down,you leave enough room so the limbs can easily slide out when unstrung.You can adjust the tiller easily and have a slight weight adjustment.

Firstly,,I am not an Expert,,that is a drip under pressure.

There are four lengths in ILF.

1.Extra shorts 2.Shorts 3.Mediums 4.Longs

Add 42 inches to your riser length on shorts to get length. 44 on mediums 46 on longs

More than 10 or 12 pounds over marked is approaching the limits of too much stress on ILF limbs.

You need to know how much weight gain due to length and riser geometry will add to this stress or preloading of the limbs marked for 25 inch risers on the riser you are proposing.

Yes they do make limbs for 17's but they are proprietary. They do make limbs for 19's also, also proprietary to the Makers risers.

ILF is adjustable for about 8% of the total weight up or down. Usually five turns out from bottomed (tightened) and snugged at the bottom.

Max is bottomed out or snugged against the riser,,you know clockwise for right handed threads. If you turn the bolt 2 1/2 turns, your at the middle of the preload or weight. You lose or gain a pound with each turn. Riser geometry and length determine the preload of the limb.

Risers that are shorter usually gain weight on the limbs, longer loses and again this is dependent on the riser pocket angles.

Risers with 20+ pockets are the norm for Olympic Bows. Other risers may preload more, for instance the Dalaa riser has more preload than some others.

It go's on and on,,,,>>>>>>------------->

I believe the TT limbs are scaled to 17'i risers.

I put some Hoyt Vector CF limbs marked 42 @ 25" riser on a Black Creek ILF that is 18 degree pads and the limbs are somewhere around 52#.

Then I moved them over to my short 13 inch riser with 20 degree limb pads and the bow is shooting around 50 pounds.

so as everyone else said, depends on the riser, limb pocket/pad angle, amount of deflex in riser, accuracy of limb rating, etc. TT limbs are rated roughly within five pounds increments, so 40 pounds limbs might actually scale in around 43 pounds on the same 17 inch riser).

And then you have the different types of limbs which have different feels in the pull, so one that is 52 pounds pull as smooth and feels lighter, while one that is 45 pounds is stiff feeling and feels more like 50.

This inaccuracy in limb ratings drives some people nuts, but it's all part of the ILF adventure. Have more than a few risers and then you are good to mix and match until you find the right combinations. Limbs and risers can be resold, and they are cheaper to ship than bows!LOL

I converted an old Bear Devastator Crossbow to ILF.So the "riser" was 4".Shot extra short limbs Thousands of shots and left cocked for weeks.Shot full length arrows probably 5gpp.

Never a failure.A lot of people say 7% over max but in my 1 experience they were tough! Hoyt Gold Medalist.

Toehead,

They will work fine on any length I.L.F. riser. Since they are marked for a 25 inch riser, you will gain approximately 8 pounds. 25 inch riser minus 17 inch riser= 8. Add the difference to the marked poundage. 44lbs + 8 = 52lbs. This is the general rule, however, as mentioned above, some risers may have different limb pad angles. If possible, check with the bowyer that built the riser.

The short limbs on a 25 inch riser will make a 66 inch bow. Again the difference in riser lengths is 8. 66 minus 8 = 58. Shorts on a 17 inch riser will make a 58 inch bow. Mediums make a 60 inch bow, and longs a 62 inch bow with the 17 inch riser.

When you ask if they make limbs for a 17 inch riser, if you mean is the poundage marked for a 17 inch riser, yes they do. As HighVallryranch said Trad Tech's limbs are marked for 17 inch risers.

I would back them out a full turn so you can adjust the tiller first, then check the weight.

Good luck,

Clyde

Is the "standard" 15 degrees? I make mine 17 degrees and find roughly 3#/degree- mine add 6#+the riser length change.

17 degree's is the best all around angle on a 21 inch riser,,JMHO,,Course I like even more angle on my personal Bows,,,

What KPC says.

Trad Tech offers a limb bolt sleeve with a collar so that no binding of the limb can occur if sleeve is snugged down all the way. This optional sleeve is slightly longer (5/8") than their standard sleeve . With this sleeve, from "max", it is 3 turns to "min". Same system that is used by high end ILF bows such as Hoyt, as an example.

>>>>---> Dave

When turned 2 turns out, my limbs rattle in the fittings, is this correct, also the first shot makes a "thwack" at release. What's up?! I would think 1/2 turn out from snug would be enough. Need to know correct "max". Please help. This is my 1st ILF rig. Black Max TT limbs, Toxonics riser. Shoots great, but.........?

If you run them in to snug, then, back them off until the limb can be removed and re-installed without issue (no fouling of the bushing in the slot), you have reached maximum preload.

Same with minimum preload. Take the bolts completely out of the bow, then, run them in about 6 full turns. Keep checking and make sure the limbs can be removed and re-installed without any tipping or fouling in the bushing. When you get to that place (now fouling in the slot) you have reached minimum preload.

It ain't that difficult. Just need to remember the key to ILF is not to allow the bushing to stress in the slot.

As for the "thwack" on the first shot--no big deal. The limbs are seating. If it happens more than once, you may need to check things out.

Darn.... no edit button.

.....When you get to that place ("no" fouling in the slot) you have reached minimum preload......

Kwikdraw,

If you mean they rattle with the bow unstrung, that's normal. When you string the the bow you can pull the string back a few inches, let go and that will set the limbs, or they will set on the first shot. That's the thwack you here. Don't forget to set the tiller after backing out the limbs.

Yes, always check tiller. When you're set a maximum preload, loosen (weaken) the stiff limb; when at minimum preload, tighten the the the weak limb. In the middle--don't matter.

Thanks guys. Think I'll call Clyde, he was kind enough to offer advice, so will get w/ him later next week. Still got questions, tiller, etc.

From: K Cummings Private Reply Date: 26-Sep-13

K Cummings's embedded Photo

"Max is bottomed out or snugged against the riser,,you know clockwise for right handed threads. If you turn the bolt 2 1/2 turns, your at the middle of the preload or weight. You lose or gain a pound with each turn. Riser geometry and length determine the preload of the limb."

I am not aware of a limb or riser manufacturer that recommends snugging the limb against the riser. Doing so takes the pivot point of the limb off the "rocker" where it is intended to be and puts stresses on the limb where the are not intended. It can also cause binding of the ILF fitting in the riser which can also lead to limb failure.

Most manufacturers suggest the "max" is about two turns of the limb bolt out from snug, and the minimum is another three turns or so out from there. Most even put some form of a "collar" or "stop" on the limb bolt to actually prevent the limb from being snugged against the riser and maintain the necessary space (shown by the red arrow). Quote

And where did I write they should be shot from "Snugged?" I gave the example to show the adjustment range from wound in, to wound out. If the limbs are 2 1/2 turns out?,,,,Please explain to me and everyone else here how you determined that they were 2 1/2 turns out????? lol

WAITING MR. Cummings! How do you know your limbs are 2 1/2 turns out if you did not at least snug them one time? Do you really think Hoyt made risers to bind the fitting in the rocker and Dovetail geometry? Doubt it!

"Most manufacturers suggest the "max" is about two turns of the limb bolt out from snug, and the minimum is another three turns or so out from there." K Cummings quote

So according to what Manu is 5 turns out "Minimum"??????

I think Maximum might be the word your thinking?

Maximum preload is wound in. Minimum is wound out 5 turns.

Now I am confused! If two turns out is maximum preload, and five turns out is minimum, then the range of adjustment is only three turns for the toted 5# adjustment range or is there only 3# adjustment on ILF limbs? I thought each turn was one pound and five turns was the rule?

According to KC, if five turns is the range for 5 pounds then minimum load setting out would be seven turns out (two out for maximum preload plus five for range and 7 out for minimum peload).

Or do the three turns adjustment have the range of five pounds?

HVR,

Throw all that away. Bushing and dovetail slots have different tolerances.

Maximum preload is bottomed out, then, loosened to where the limbs can be removed and re-installed without binding or stress on the system.

Minimum preload is to back the bolts all the way out, then, turn them in at least 6 turns to make sure you have a safe amount of threads, then, continue to turn in until you can remove and reinstall the limbs without any stress to the system. When you reach the "no binding or stress", you have reached minimum preload.

btw... KPC, your post came up after I posted. I wasn't telling him to throw away what you said--you're giving good advice. I was answering his post and pointing out that there can be variables to the range of adjustment from on riser or limbs to another.

Toehead,

Your Winex limbs should be just fine. I have a pair of 38# mediums and 38# longs I've been shooting off a Titan riser for the past seven years. The come in at 56# @ 32" and haven't given me the slightest hint of a problem.

Thanks, But I make my own risers,so all that varies. What I wan't that aware of was to not tighten down the limbs bolt snug. Since the dovetail is a pivot point, I don't see how the angle is placing more load on the pivot point? But i bottom them out, and loosend one turn so that the limnbs can be easily removed.

As far as limb bolts, they are nothing more than standard 5/16 x 18 bolts, Nothing special. The sleeve I make out of some brass tubing that I found that is the perfect ILF dimensions. I can cut them to what ever length, so will make some that prevent the limbs ends from bottoming out.

Are all limbs the same thickness there, though?

No they are not the same thickness and the dims vary. You can run them in to find the max preload and back them off with no problems.

KPC,,You complicate things to defend your definitions which make little sense. Wound in is Maximum preload, wound is minimum! Everybody knows this,,more turns in loads the limbs.

I know there are a lot of Lancaster Trad tech guys here and that is fine but,,,,the whole world of ILF is not dictated by Trad techs definitions. I have shot numerous limbs,,numerous makers for years with the limbs wound in to a half turn or so out from maximum. The rockers on the limbs do not cause a exigent bind in the dovetail either, when wound in. The worst scenario is not wound in too much, it is wound out too much! If you wind them out too far? YOU DO BIND the fitting in the dovetail and cause a problem.

There is no SAE standard on ILF limbs or fittings,,or dovetail dims. You will find variations in all of them.

IMO it is too confusing to reinvent terminology and confusing to newbies making it more daunting to newbies than it needs to be.Hiram knows his stuff but TradTech is the best source for newbies.It ain't rocket science.

KC, I'm still trying to understand the dynamics of the stress caused by over tightening.

If snugged down. Where is the stress? The slot for the limb bolt, or the limb at the dovetail fitting?

If undue stress by being snugged down causes failure at the slot for the limb bolt, what type of damage have you seen occur? The only change in stress that I could see would be a VERY slight change in angle to the limb bolt, but since the limb bolt is tapered, wouldn't the limb washer take care of that change in angle?

Or is in in the limb ILF dovetail fitting and causes binding in the ILF hardware? If this is the failure point, then have limbs actually split at the dovetail hole?

"Like I said, people are free to do what they wish, but these are the facts of the matter."KC qoute

You accuse me of trying to be a "Guru" lol Did you read my first post? I said I was not and "Expert",,,,,,,lol

Now you claim the fame yourself? NOT!

Now answer this; Your so called "Binding" of the fitting and the limb rocker geometry is a theory you call fact.

How is it that with a dovetail set 0.250 deep based on a rocker design with a step angle and rocker camming limb butt gonna bind beyond what you call a Maximum?

Note; I never did say to shoot a limb wound in tight,,,but based on the design, and if the dimensions of the dovetail are correct? I'd not hesitate to so it!

Now notice that did not say to torque the limb down with any significant torque because it simply is not needed, and also based on my experience, the sweet spot is usually a turn or so out anyway.

Now I know you are on a quest to be the "Guru" yourself,,so in an effort to be civil,,I will go along with your new found fame! lol,,,hope you kill something good this year! PS,,a Squirrel is a trophy,,,even if my limbs are turned all the way down>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-----------------------> Go man!

"An ILF limb is designed to have ONLY the rocker rest on the limb pad. " KC quote

I'm sorry,,did not see this,,and how exactly did Hoyt come up with their "8%" adjustment range? Come on man,,,if your theory holds water,,How do you propose to set your tiller?

Come on Man,,your embarrassing yourself now! ILF were designed to cam off the rocker and the space forward section of the limb butt is designed to offer the clearance for the adjustment...let this go and go for a walk in the woods with your ILF Bow set in the middle of the adjustment range and have fun,,

Cummings,,the thread you showed as a reference happened because of out of spec ILF fittings! As I said earlier,,if the dovetail is correct, and if the fitting is also correct with proper depth? There will be no failures unless the limb was preloaded on a riser that exceeds 10 or 12 pounds over the marked weight on the limbs!

Here is the photo from the fittings in the thread that were faulty,,,you can see that the top lips caused the binding,,not the fitting or the limb rockers or the wound in preload. I am not a "Guru" but you are definitely in my area here,,,I have studied ILF fittings and dovetails for years and understand what the basic mechanics are. I have also machined hundreds of dovetails in risers and shot more than 12 sets of limbs on various risers and limb combos. Get this in your head Man,,,if the dovetail is of proper dims, and the riser geometry is not over stressing the limb, the wound in rate is built into the basic mechanics of the ILF limb design,,,,,,,,

Now look at the line you drew in your photo and then at the .060 surplus dimension in a correctly machined dovetail,,,are you seeing it? The tolerance is built in to be "Idiot proof" and if not, hundreds of limbs would be breaking in ILF Bows!!! Now I am NOT recommending that people wind their limbs all the way in and crank them with more than 5 pounds of torque! What I am saying is the design is there for a reason,,to adjust the tiller with at least an 8% range from wound in, to wound out. I personally recommend that they be snugged gently and wound out at least one turn but,,,,,,,then again,,I have NEVER HAD A DOVETAIL failure on any of my Bows or those I have machined a dovetail into, why? Because I make room for them fore and aft to rock on the fitting axis and check it in my shop with an oversize fitting.

Toehead-call TradTech.

Right. I could answer you but I think you'd be better to call TradTech and get it from the horse's mouth. Then you could tell us what they said.

I will answer the tiller question as it's pretty simple. With both limbs set at equal tiller as measured with a bowsquare at the fades or riser edges back off the top bolt until you get 1/8" more measurement at the fade than the bottom limb. This should be good for split.

Cummings Bob Gordon is talking about ILF Vs. Flat limbs and nothing to do with the wound in on an ILF limb. Tradtech is NOT the ILF world and I do not own or shoot any Tradtech limbs. Would I? Sure,,and if I needed the weight I'd wind them in too! Most people who buy ILF limbs do so for the ease of adjustment and the limb design and lengths. Everybody knows that the limbs are supposed to ride on the rockers and that is what Bob Gordon is explaining in your quote.

So according to Tradtech,,order your limbs so that maximum preload is achieved at 2 1/2 turns out from wound in?

If that is true? Are TT limbs weight for maximum preload for marked weight measured at in the middle of the adjustment range?

If they are? Then everyone who buys them can expect to only have 4% adjustment with their limbs! If that is true,,TT limbs do not have the same adjustment capability of other limbs and preload is measured at maximum 2 1/2 wound out.

Cummings,,I intend to call Lancaster archery and talk to Mr. Wert about this myself. I will do so Monday and post what he told me.

If He says what you say,,I'd shy away from any TT limbs.

Toehead,,who built your Warf risers?

I have never had Limb bolts back out or get loose.

To set your tiller? Use a tap measure from the string to the limb at the end of the riser pocket. Set at even tiller for three under and 1/4 positive for split.

Feel free to PM me, will help you anyway I can.

All this stuff is confusing. When I was looking into a ILF setup Stickbow37 was a great help. I bought the Hoyt "excel" riser and long 45# BM limbs. I have been shooting it for 3 years with the limbs cranked all the way down and the bow is [email protected]

Yep! The Bow I am hunting with is set with Hoyt limbs at less than one turn out and I have shot many hundreds of arrows through it with no issues.

I think Cummings is complicating it with a basic misunderstanding of what Tradtech is actually saying?

I do not think there is anything wrong with TT limbs at all! I think they are just saying that their limbs peak weight is at mid range on the adjustment of 2 1/2 turns out on their risers.

If anyone has a riser with different geometry and fittings other than Tradtech risers? The peak weight may well (probably is) much different than original Tradtech risers.

I think also that Cummings has pushed this to try and prove that all ILF is only made to be adjusted from the mid point in the adjustment range of all ILF limbs and in the process has caused all the confusion.

ILF is made to be adjusted, otherwise from the now famous "Cummings theory" all ILF limbs only have a 4% adjustment range and cannot be adjusted or wound in from the the mid point of their adjustment...which is total BS!

TOEHEAD,,,the Warf risers should also have brass bushings on the LB's? 5/16'sx18 is the common LB size in the Industry, even on most old Compounds converted to WARF's..the brass bushing must have 0.375 or 3/8's outside diameter. The bushing should fit snug to the LB and have a wall thickness of 0.43 to be correct.

One thing you can do if you suspect the limb bolts are walking loose? Get some plumbers Teflon tape and make a couple of wraps around the bolts threads and under the bushing if you can? Teflon under the bushing will insure no vibration and on the bolt will help keep them tight in the threads. LB bolts seldom walk loose and the only real reason for LB locking screws are for takedown and return to set assurance only.

Cummings,,there is no need for me to call Tradtech. I just took this from their website on the limb bolt adjustment range and IT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN MY ORIGINAL POST!

"Draw Weight: Your TradTech Bow or riser comes with the draw weight set at the base minimum weight unless you’ve instruct - ed us to customize it especially for you. This factory weight setting can always be duplicated by first loosen - ing and taking the In-Line Limb Bolt Locking Set Screws out of the riser; then turn the limb bolts lightly snug against the bronze bushings and loosen exactly 5 turns counterclockwise to find the minimum setting, then replace and retighten the In-Line Limb Locking Set Screws securely"

The limb bushings are the length appropriate to keep the limb from being torqued too much, then adjusted five turns out. You would have everyone believe that "Snugged" which is exactly the word I used, is incorrect.......you have misunderstood the Nomenclature yourself, and mislead everyone in the process!

If anyone would like to be as close as they can to TT's advice? Buy their limb bo0lts and install them on your Bow also. .

" You just can't fix stupid.

KPC "

Cummings,,,,,,,are you now saying I am "Stupid"?

I'd say you should seek the truth rather than cast aspersions and resort to petty name calling and look in the Mirror on this special day of the week yourself!

You said you were done several posts back but you are wrong and are in too deep! You then resort to petty schoolyard bully tactics in an effort to shore yourself up. The "Gadfly" approach is not uncommon here but I will ask you this; This is my hinting Warf this year, an Old Hoyt riser I machined down and converted to ILF.

This picture is with a set of Hoyt Glass limbs, mediums and are set 3.4 of a turn out from maximum wound in. Do you think this is too much preload?

Hunting riser,,that is,,ugly? No, not to me,,it is beautiful because I love Olive drab! lol And yes,,the limb bolts are 3/8's and the bezels and washers are homemade too! It shoots like a dream for me,,quiet, and fast. Killed Coyote with it yesterday,,love it and love ILF! I can tailor make my tuning adjustments,,,the beauty of ILF or DAS is a wonderful thing in my world!

From: K Cummings Reply Date: 29-Sep-13

Oh, so "snug against the bronze bushings" is now the same thing as having the limb "bottomed our or snugged to the riser?"

Keep trying Sam, and remember "Do not eat."

LOL

KPC Qoute

Snug is wound in,,and yes, past what you recommend. Past what is shown in my picture of my Warf limb adjustment in the photo,,yes!

I set my bushing length at 0.500 just like Bob did,,and yes,,Bob is my Mentor and friend. He passed on some of his tools to me and I also build almost exclusively like he did before I started using a milling machine. I know Bob Gordon well,,do you you?

Mr, Cummings,,I made a Youtube video just for you! Two different limbs,,will do another later on with four different limbs. There is no binding in ILF if the dims are correct! http://youtu.be/ar30v6pzuFw George,,can you inbed this for me?

Here it is again; http://youtu.be/ar30v6pzuFw

A word to the wise,,Hoyt did NOT make HDS to bind a limb! Everybody else in the World tries to copy the original and sell Limbs and risers. Beware those that tell you their Limbs will bind wound in because if they built correctly? They WILL NOT! I do not recommend you tighten them wound in when strung either,,,DO NOT adjust your limbs when the Bow is strung,,unstring it and make your adjustments to be on the safe side of the equation. You cannot tell how much pressure you are exerting when the Bow is strung unless you are very familiar with ILF and KNOW how far wound in or out you are in the adjustment range. Use a Bow stringer too, more limbs are ruined by people stringing them without a stringer than anything else!

And a second video with more limbs; http://youtu.be/jlVTbvcYMLw

Ricky,,it is not just WARF'S,,it is all well made risers with correct dimensions that SHOULD NOT BIND! If you or any other Manu cannot make an ILF limb or riser that doe's not bind, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!

Okay, Sam, help me be clear on what you're trying to tell with your video's.

Are you saying: When the limbs pads lay flat against the limb pocket there is no stress on the system.... and, when the limbs is free to fall back on it's own, there is no stress on the system until the bushing stops it?

That would be a much greater range of adjustment than is currently considered acceptable--don't you think.

Jim, I will say what I have already said about it and stand on it from my experience with ILF. An ILF limb can be wound in to "Snug" and again I am quoting the Tradtech instructions with the word "Snug" and be wound out no more than five full turns.

I can see no reason why a limb cannot be shot "Snug" if the dimensions are correct in the ILF fitting to allow for no binding.

It is JMHO that if an ILF binds as Mr. Cummings suggests? That there is a dimensional problem with the set up.

Now if any limb maker says to start the adjustment range from 2 1/2 turns out? That is their proprietary advice! If what Cummings says is true of Tradtech limbs (which I do not believe is the case), then the adjustment range has been effectively limited to only 4% adjustment.

Now I know you are a proponent of Tradtech,,that is fine! I have NO ISSUE with them of any kind. I do think though that; What Cummings is pushing here in this thread may or may not be the truth, as Tradtech may see it?

And yes,,there should not be any binding with the limb base laying flat on the pocket floor! There very well may be at more than 5 turns outward to minimum preload and I do not, and have never said to go more than five turns out on the loosening of the LB's.

Jim,,if the limb was wound out to far the bushing would not stop it, the ILF fitting would bind in the dovetail and very well may rip up through the top of the dovetail! That is why I think anyone setting up with ILF should start with an unstrung Bow and just snug their limbs to wound in, then back them off according to the range of poundage they want, not ever exceeding 5 turns out.

It looks like in the video that a couple of those limbs fell back much further than what would be 5 turns of the limb bolts. Just wondering..... worn bushing, smaller bushing, or..... and do you think those particular limbs might offer a wider ("safe") range of adjustment?

Oh.... and btw, Sam. I’ve never considered myself a proponent of TradTech, any more than I’m a proponent of Morrison, Hoyt, Bear, etc., etc. There all good, to my notion. It’s just that I’ve never been a basher of TradTech, or any other manufacturer, for that matter. I’m a free market capitalist dog, and despise, protectionist socialism. :^)

Man, this isn't what I intended! Sorry guys!! Wyatt

I am not "BASHING" any Manu's here either! The video? No limb bolts in the riser if you noticed? How about you do this; Make a video of your own showing the limbs binding? Have you tried your limbs in a bare fitting with no limb bolts?

No one said you were bashing anyone, Sam.

Yeah, I've tinkered a little and moved the limb around in the slot. Personally, I think there's more adjustment that the manufactures would let us think. I was just wondering what you thought.

Off the record Jim,,I'd say six turns is not unreasonable in most cases but I would be afraid to tell anyone to do it. I hope this thread will inspire others to try their riser limb combo's with the Bow unstrung and get to know exactly how ILF works a little more. I have no ill will towards Mr. Cummings or anyone here, I have behaved myself and respected Mr. Cummings and others I think during this very informative thread. I also really believe Tradtech limbs are quality and also have heard that they offer outstanding Customer service. I always try to be honest in every thing I do and say. It may not be agreeable to many but that is the way it is. I offer respect and wish blessings to all here.

"Man Child" is a name after your public statement saying I was "Stupid"! lol,,I think diapers would be more appropriate for you but in any case no harm done to either of us! lol Now off to enjoy ILF and Bowhunting,,and all the other Guys that build your Bows and Warf risers etc. My hat is off to you because we enjoy "Doing it ourselves" That stave in my video is gonna be a project once I get caught up and I'm looking forward to it..

What riser and limb combo? Pics?

Riser and limb combo? If they are kept within proper dims and machined, they will not bind! http://youtu.be/U8O10NCFMcM

And for those interested here is my proprietary dimensions that have worked and keep working.

Dovetail depth,, 0.250

Dovetail width,, 0.437

Dovetail length for Black Bear riser,, 0.800

Dovetail radius from Limb bolt,, 02.100

Dovetail side angles are 45 degree's

I set my dovetails so the Radius of the dovetail is the primary stop for the ILF fitting. This keeps the fitting as the primary contact and not the limb bolt.

To my knowledge, I have never had a complaint of my dovetails binding.

I suspect that many beginners adjust the limb bolt preload with the Bow strung and torque the bolt down wayyyyyy tooooo much!

Never adjust tiller or preload with the Bow strung, always unstring it with a stringer and do your adjustments, then re-string with the stringer and check tiller. Never do lateral adjustments with the Bow Strung, same thing, unstring it first so you can feel the adjustments.

Never torque a limb down!!!!!! Very little to no pressure is necessary at wound in,,just lightly snug the limb bolt with less than a pound or two pressure.

I would even take the limb out or unscrew it a good amount so you can see and feel for any binding in the fitting with the limb installed.

I hope this helps others to not make the mistakes that ruin limbs.

From the limb bolt center in a milling machine using a pointer in the limb bolt hole, measure down in thousands 02.100 to establish the end of the dovetail, or radius. Are you a machinist? If so, Do you understand now? Glad to help you..

LOL,,the reason the limb went in stiff? I had not cut the entry relief into the bottom of the dovetail yet. Two of the limbs did not have detents in the fittings. Keep it coming though,,I think this is an interesting thread.

KPC,,could you make a video that explains your Theory? I have some more ideas myself. I think a video explaining your thoughts with illustrations would be a good idea myself..I would like to see the binding your talking about illustrated?

LOL..show me proof that every ILF Manu that makes ILF Risers says you cannot "Snug" to quote Tradtech, your limbs down? Then we can talk,,lol You also seem to knock WARFING,,and there are a lot of Guys that would resent that,,especially those who have successfully made their own from scratch or with a Compound riser. Many here and all over the World Recycle old Archery equipment and even make their own Bows,,,AND THAT,,is a very rewarding and worthy endeavor to my train of thought!There are literally thousands of Warf's and Quarfs killing Game everywhere on Earth along with homemade Self Bows and laminated Bows,,Rock on Brothers!

One more little question for you KPC,,explain to us how Bolt down limb butts keep from failing? I know, I know,, your gonna say they do not have a rocker like ILF,,,lol but explain this; If ILF limb butts are strong enough to hold the pressure of the limb while suspended, (hanging out there unsupported while not touching anything)How then is that they might fail if the are snugged? No I am not talking about cranking them down too much,,we do not even do that with bolts downs,,,NO! I mean I would not recommend that anyone crank the heck out of a set of bolt down either!

So,,,if ILF limbs are strong enough to bear all the weight of the limbs while suspended, How is it that your theory holds water? Would you not agree that if the fitting is NOT BINDING in the dovetail and not over torqued that the limb should not fail?

And one more question, and not just to you, but to all the Manu's that YOU have tried to make us all believe you represent them? (which is a joke) Why is it that if a little guy like me can as you say, Build from a "Discarded riser" a dovetail that aligns the limbs with no binding in the fitting, NOT MAKE LIMBS AND RISERS THEMSELVES THAT DO NOT BIND? Why?

I am not selling anything! As I have pointed out many times here but I can tell you that your assumption that only Major Manu"s have the intelligence or know how to make Archery equipment is more than just a little Pomp-ass on your part! I would even go so far as to tell you that those of us who make our own should "Wear a Helmet and a Cup" while shooting and killing Game successfully with our "Garage built" or DIY equipment has not actually done much on their own yet! Making your own Knife or Bow or Arrows, knapping your heads etc. is very rewarding to a dedicated Archer and represents more than just the Picture taken when a Deer or even Small game is taken with homemade equipment.

I have seen several "Ambulance Chasers" here preaching Liability claims here and think it represents the Chickenchit segment of Society that likes to think they can litigate if they fall down somewhere etc.

When you cannot support your position, You change the subject to Insurance etc. Same to you KPC,,great thread and informative,,thank you! Kill a big'n or a little one,,both fry up nice!

Almost forgot,,a Free conversion on a Black Bear for you KPC from me anytime in the future, you pay shipping only!

I want to thank Hiram as I did learn one new thing from his viseos.. I see I can now use an unstrung ILF rig to rattle in bucks :)

that should be videos

Peanut Gallery,,

I CONDUCTED SOME RATHER INTERESTING EXPERIMENTS TONIGHT BASED ON THE DEBATED TOPIC. OF COURSE THESE ARE MY OWN WITH WHAT I HAD ON HAND, BUT THEY ARE AN HONEST EVALUATION OF WHAT I FOUND.

So I looked closer at the fit of the ILF limb bushing against the dovetail fitting. I looked at three set of limbs, a set of Hoyt talon extra short limbs, a set of Hoyt Vector limbs, and some trad tech Black max limbs with ILF fittings.

I have a black creek riser with Jim Mann's donkey ILF fittings that I installed myself, flush with the limb pads. All my current risers have Jim Mann's fittings, so that is all I can use to compare, but perhaps others can try the same experiment as I did to investigate what is being discussed for themselves.

I imagine that the cut of the dovetail would be the critical factor as to whether there would be binding if the limb are tightened all the way down, but here is what I found:

I had three set of limbs to experiment with. 1. first I took a set of older Hoyt talon limbs with the factory ILF bushing and bottomed the limb bolt end of the rocker flat against the limb pad and dovetail fitting to see if I could actually get any binding. I did not. I was able to easily slide the limb in and out with the limb flat against the limb pad. This tells me that even flat against the limb pad, I would not get any binding of the dovetail bushing against the dovetail slot (at least with Mann's design). Conclusion, I could easily and safely snug the bolt down will no ill effects on the bushing as it would never bind to any extent that could cause failure since I can still easily slide the limb in and out even at the most extreme angle. How could failure happen then?

2. Second I took a set of Hoyt carbon foam Vector limbs and did the same on the same riser and dovetail fitting. results? The same results. I could easily slide the limb in and out with the limb bolt end of the limb snug against the riser limb pad, and on top of that, because of the spring of the dovetail bushing, even with the limb in place and the limb bolt end flat against the limb pad, I could easily create up and down movement because of the give of the pin and spring in the ILF bushing. Now how can there be so much tension created by a snug bolted down limb bolt if the limb is flat against the pad, and I can still create movement up and down with minimum hand pressure on the spring and pin? I don't get the argument about the dovetail bushing binding in the slot when I do this investigation.

3. Now we finally have some difference. I used a set of almost new Trad tech Black max wood/glass limbs and did the same experiment. I did get binding. In fact I could not even get the limb bolt end of the limb flat down against the limb pad. WHY? BECAUSE TRAD TECH LIMBS HAVE THAT PLASTIC SPACER ON THE BOTTOM OF THE LIMB PAD! In fact, if you slide in the limbs with the spacer still intact, you get binding of the bushing against the dovetail if you press either way on the rocker. With the spacer, the limb bolt end of the limb is 3/16 inch from being flat to being flush with the limb pad. If you try to press the limb end down flat, then you are creating a huge amount of pressure of the limb bushing against the dovetail.

SO MY CONCLUSION IS: Without that plastic spacer, on both hoyt limb sets, the idea that snugging the limb flat against the limb pad can cause such tremendous binding that the limbs would fail is impossible.

With the trad tech limbs, perhaps the reason that they tell you that max is two turns out, might be because the plastic spacer causes such binding in the fit of the limb ILF bushing to the ILF dovetail. I have removed the spacer in the past on other sets and snugged the limbs flat down with various risers to no ill effect. SO IS IT BECAUSE OF THE PLASTIC SPACER? IS IT EVEN NECESSARY TO HAVE THAT SPACER? NEITHER OF THE HOYT LIMBS HAVE THAT SPACER THAT CAUSES BINDING IN THE DOVETAIL?

Everyone is free to do the same examination and I encourage it, because then we could have an examination of more examples. I only had three sets of limbs to experiment with and one set of ILF dovetail fittings.

Also, I disagree with the poster that wrote, "An ILF limb is designed to have ONLY the rocker rest on the limb pad."

that made me ponder, but when I closely looked at my setups, the rocker does not contact the limb pad at all. The dovetail bushing makes contact with the dovetail fitting, and the rocker (if it has no plastic spacer or padding) floats above the limb pad and make no contact what so ever. There is at least 1/16" space between the limb and pad at the dovetail fitting. An again, it you read my analysis above, there is never enough tension between the bushing and dovetail fitting (at least on my current equipment) to cause binding unless the limbs have that plastic spacer.

Hector, did you limbs break in the limb groove or at the dovetail fitting. From rereading your post it states that it broke in the limb groove (which I take as the limb bolt groove) and KC reads it as backing up his theory of the limbs breaking at the dovetail fitting. Could you please clarify, as I think it would help with the discussion?

There is a difference of it breaking at the groove from just bolt down pressure as opposed to breaking in the fitting area because of binding, and did your limbs have the plastic spacer to cause more binding (fulcrum).

Thanks, I am not arguing, just very intrigued by what I am hearing.

Okay, I take back my disagreement with Hector on the rocker not touching the limb pad. Like i said, I want to do an honest evaluation.

The rocker did contact the limb pad after I strung up the bow. I snugged down the limb bolts and strung the bow up with the hoyt vector limbs. I originally had checked the ride of the limb rocker with the bow unstrung and that is why I saw so much clearance.

But this leads then to another question. When the bow is strung, the tension of the string pulls the limb ILF bushing aways from the dovetail, because now it is pressing down on spring and pin in the bushing. I took a flashlight and can see clearance between the top of the bushing camber and the ILF fitting. When pulling back, the limbs go down towards the riser, relieving any possible pressure or binding against the two.

I can see that upon release with the stretch of dacron strings that the limbs could go forward enough to put presser back on the contact between the ILF bushing and the dovetail slot, but any binding would certainly be relieved by the spring in the pin and bushing and this pressure would have been the same for a loose limb bolt for the tolerance given above with the unstrung bow, so I can't see how being strung would have changed any of my analysis earlier conducted as far a possible binding of the bushing and fitting with the limb bolt snugged down.

I know, it's late and I'm headed off for dreaming about all this!LOL Just thought I would put in my last thoughts because your Easterns will read all this before I get up.

Feel free to dispute any of this if you take the time to conduct your own experiments. Your milage might vary with your particular setup. Wishing all well! HVR

I have converted ALL of my ILF risers (that do not have a factory collared limb bolt )to accommodate the new Trad Tech optional collared limb bolt sleeves which are longer than those uncollared sleeves provided by TT (and some other brand name risers) with each riser, and the new sleeves are 5/8" long. These longer sleeves prevent the limb from being snugged down against the riser, with the collar becoming a "buffer" of sorts to prevent that. With that in mind, if you snug down the limbs until the collars a lightly snugged against the riser, you are now at the maximum limb setting. Of course, you would actually have to back them off slightly to set the correct tiller for both the upper and lower limb. Now once the tiller is set, backing these off 3 turns, now places the tiller adjusted limbs to the minimum setting (on a Trad Tech riser). Some manufactures limb bolts are collared and do not use sleeves, so just be aware of that difference.

Trad Tech does provide limb pads on all of its ILF limbs, and these are designed to prevent limb chafing when the limb makes contact with the riser. This limb pad increases the actual limb thickness slightly so when comparing limb fitment without pads, there will be a slight difference in the tightness of the limb fitment, as compared to limbs without pads. I like using the pads, and have placed them on other brands of ILF limbs that I use, so that interchanging them with the TT limbs does not require any further limb bolt adjustment.

Each ILF bow manufacturer provides explicit instructions on setting up the min/max limb settings, as well as how to set the tiller for split finger, 3 under and the like. They tell the user exactly how many turns one can safely back out, etc. I would advise everyone to follow the instructions provided by the manufacture, and not just the "opinions" of those who say they are the experts. One point that has not been made in this thread, is that the limb bolt length has a great deal of impact on the number of turns one can safely "back off" I have different ILF risers, and some have different limb bolt length, which affects how many turns one can safely back out. These differences are reflected in the manufacturers set up instructions.

WARF's (ILF converted compound bow risers)are yet another story, most do not have limb bolt set screws to lock the limb bolt in position so that there can be some limb bolt movement (particularly when the bow is unstrung) that is inadvertently caused by accidentally moving or turning the limb bolt. That would affect not only the bow weight, but tiller as well so it behooves anyone who owns one, to take measures to insure that there will be no limb bolt movement. My own personal WARF has limb bolt set screws, so it is not a problem with mine. WARF's also generally do not have lateral limb adjustment built in.

John Wert, Division Manager of Trad Tech, is a real ILF garu and will help any one out - so if you need some really good answers, give him a call. He can help you with limb weight/length for specific risers because ILF limbs pretty much come from the factory with a + or - , indicating they are "close" to the weight marked on the limb, but not the actual limb weight.

ILF is here to stay, and it is such a versatile bow, that I am constantly amazed at the possibilities one has with them. Enjoy!!

>>>>---> Dave

Thanks KPC, "The binding may or may not happen until the system is under stress, and the whole "system" is pressed together. A certain amount of play (up and down) is built into the system. This allows for the spring loaded pin to do it's thing. That's why you will often here it "click" when the limb is inserted all the way.

But as I stated in my experiment, in my setup, even with the limb bolt end all the way flush with the limb pad, the limb can easily be slid in. This proves that there is no binding on the bushing. And since in the strung bow, the bushing is even more relieved from the pressure, you haven't explained to me how being strung would then cause ANY more stress on the bushing since there is not stress when not strung?

More on the release?

The original designer, Hoyt does not provide any plastic spacer on their limbs, so doesn't the plastic spacer that TT provide cause more stress on the limb bolt by jacking up the bushing tighter against the fitting dovetail. If you state that ANY stress on that dovetail is critical, then the spacer makes it all worse, as it now is TIGHTER to the fitting than without it and cause major stress to the bushing that you claim should not have ANY stress?

You stated that TT now provides a longer LB sleeve , but as Hoyt designed the system, why did they provide a short sleeve?

If you saw a situation where the limb bolt was so long that it caused the limb bolt to bend, doesn't that prove the opposite of your theory that the limb bushing can only take a little stress? It takes major force to bend a steel bolt, way more that any slight binding of the dovetail bushing would get from minor binding of the fit.

Sorry, I just can't get the theory of the limb bushing binding. Later today, I will take the pin and spring out and see if I can get binding in any way.

HighValleyRanch

I will add to what KPC did not say as I was the one who spoke of the longer sleeve with a collar that TradTech has available as an option for its risers. They just recently made this available and I do not know, at this point in time, if they are going to make it something that will be on new risers or not. I will ask John Wert about this and see what he says. It can be found in the Lancaster Archery catalog.

>>>>---> Dave

I have cut my limb bolt bushings to stop the limb at 0.500 for years, so did Bob Gordon.

The Leatherwall is a wonderful site but those like Hal9000 have stopped me from doing any build alongs.

The harassment Vs. the information people receive is just not worth it to me anymore.

There is one clear fact; I have done hundreds of conversions and converted many risers for people all the World. Mostly my friends and as a favor to others.

As it stands right now, I have people in line asking me to convert their risers to ILF. I refuse most of them because I am not in the business for any serious monetary gain for this particular work.

I think Bob Gordon is the foremost Warf authority in the World and I think also that Mr. Manns dovetails are a great product also.

I tried to start a build along here some time ago and was attacked early on so I stopped. Hal9000 and other Trolls here have made me decide that until the "Peanut Gallery" go's away here on the Leatherwall? There will be those who will not post good information because of this petty childlike behavior.

I really do not mind the self proclaimed experts like KPC,,they really do solicit some good information.

Sad to say that the Internet has become a playing field for Gadflys and as a result, many have either stopped participating or do not post.

The fact is, I do know what I am doing, and at this moment, am sought after to do Conversion work on risers. To date, I have not had any complaints about my work, only here exists any negative speculation.

So, I will leave it with you KPC,,and any other Authorities on ILF. The Peanut Gallery have cheated others from good DIY info here.

Have you tried the experiment that I did Ken? If you have some ILF limbs without spacers, do exactly what I did and you will see that there is NO WAY that the ILF bushing will bind in the ILF dovetail slot, from the apex of the limb flat against the limb pad.

Second, you wrote: . The pad that TT uses on their limbs doesn't create any meaningful additional stress on the ILF dovetail."

the spacer does add more fulcrum tension to the fit of the ILF bushing to the dovetail. It's already a hard slide just from the extra space the spacer takes up. And with not limb bolt, it is impossible to press the limb bolt end down flat to the limb pad, so it definitely adds a huge amount to the argument of the fulcrum theory.

On the bent limb bolt: No, if the limb bushing also got misshapen then it does discredit your theory, because originally your wrote: "it is not designed to take alot of stress". Man, if you can apply enough force to misshapen it (ILF bushin) while in the limb, that is an incredible amount of force, way more that any binding could ever create, if binding was even possible.

Also in your photo of the limb rocker and the black line to show how the limb flattened against the limb pad (black line) could cause binding against the bushing, you also are showing the theory without the bow strung. Again, now when the bow is strung, the limb rocker is the only contact with the limb pad. If you can lay the entire section of the limb from the rocker to the slot flat against the limb pad without any stress on the limb ILF bushing, how can snugging down the limb tight cause binding on the bushing?

And yes, I took the spring and the plunger pin out one of the ILF bushing and then I could see exactly what would happen with the limb end flat against the limb pad. The bushing has TONS OF CLEARANCE and in no way could bind with the bolt snugged down.

Please try it for yourself with a limb that has no plastic pad to see for yourself.

And for what it worth, for those that are daring enough to make their own ILF risers or warf or go beyond the instruction manuals, the ILF bolts are not special hardware, nor is the bolt sleeve. The bolts that I have been using are 5/16 x 18 standard threading that you can buy at most hardware stores. You can buy them with various types of heads and even make antler bolts for your ILF system. Bolts are bolts. And by the way, I thread my limb bolts all the way through my risers, so the end of the bolt is exposed and then use a nut on the end to lock it down and forever prevent limb bolt pull out unless the whole riser exploded into bits!LOL All this is countersunk and looks neat.

You can buy the double sided threaded insert (5/16 x 18 inside thread and 1/2 x 13 outside thread} at any graingers supply house. And I found the brass sleeve material down at my rural farm supply in the rod and sleeves bin. For the 5/16 limb bolts go to an ace hardware store and have them order or buy brass stock number 9213 brass sleeve made by k-s engineering chicago. It is 3/8 x .029 and works perfect for the ILF sleeve bushing and you get 24 inch piece for 15.00 and can cut tons of sleeves to whatever length you need.

Again, I am not an ILF expert, but can see for myself what is real or just theory.

When I said that the rocker is the only thing that should make contact with the limb pad, that was intended to mean while under stress. When the bow isn't strung, the spring loaded pin in the dovetail fitting will often lift the limb rocker up off the limb pad (not as noticeable if there is a pad between them.) Once the limbs are under stress, the pin depresses, the rocker is pressed against the limb pad, and virtually all stress is relieved from the dovetail fitting. It no longer does anything other than keep the limb centered side to side.

The ILF fitting is NOT designed to be under stress, and never should be. It is like the pin in a standard bolt and pin takedown system. It centers the limb laterally. The only difference is that it is "universal" which makes it compatible between manufactures, and it allows for a range of preload/weight adjustment." Cummings quote

So Cummings,,in your World doe's the ILF fitting stop on the radius?

That is OK,,take the time you need to google and read up on it before you answer? And could you stop feeling sorry for yourself too in the process?

What I was asking Ken, was if you tried exactly the same experiment as I did? Since you have hoyt limbs, then have you fitted the hoyt limb and bushing into a dovetail slot, held the limb bolt end flat against the limb pad and gotten extreme tension on the binding? You found binding IN ALL CASES to backup your theory, or in a few?

All I am saying is that I do NOT, and therefore it would be better to say that MY QUOTE:-)

In some cases tightening the limb bolt too tight MIGHT cause some binding and undue STRESS on the limbs at the bushing area, but each case is UNIQUE and you can easily check the fit to see if this is the case in your setup.

Instead of quoting a trad tech manual as the source for never tightening down the limb bolt.

In fact, after I read your posts, I backed out my limb bolts to two turns, until I did my own investigation and am now happy to crank them down to flat if desired.

I think the OP has probably gone back to a compound after all this help.

Or next time ask for the topic to be DEBATE FREE!LOL

I just saw a little humor in the clicking and clacking of the limb in your video Hiram... lighten up.. it's all fun.

I'm am lightened up,,,so light in fact that; I have tried to apply a little humor myself Hal/4inolz and the rest of the Peanuts here! Is it a per-requisite to be a Peanut here??? LOL,,,lighten up!

It's probably better to be a peanut than a salted nut roll :)

I'm not here for Humor,,I'm here to talk Archery and Bowhunting. I tell it exactly as it is and those who cannot deal with it get mad and try to harass me at every chance. I actually think it is all because I posted a thread dispelling a Myth about a method of shooting and many here just cannot get over it and move on to other subjects. I think it time,,,time to move on to actual substantive conversation here. I am waiting on KC to answer my question? Your so cute Hal! Makes you really look cool too! What a joke!

Sorry I called you ken, kevin!

you wrote: But if that's the advice you would give a person new to ILF, with unknown equipment, I'd seriously question your judgment.

Where did I recommend that everyone crank down their limb bolts tight? Now you are the one misquoting. I stated: "In some cases tightening the limb bolt too tight MIGHT cause some binding and undue STRESS on the limbs at the bushing area, but each case is UNIQUE and you can easily check the fit to see if this is the case in your setup."

Now what ill advice is that?

you wrote: not one-off things that people make for themselves. I supposed the riser I was using for testing, Jim Gainey of Black creek bow, a well respected bowyer makes those one off THINGS!LOL

From: K Cummings Private Reply Date: 01-Oct-13

Keep waiting Sam. Your chance of any serious discussion with me ended when you started (continued) calling me names.

You reap what you sew. You are treated here like you treat others, both in the public forum and via PM.

I suggest you either treat others with respect or go back to the sandbox where you have control of the edit button.

KPC

LOL, So your now the Judge over all mankind and also the ILF Master of the World? lol,,,You must be gonna be there on Judgement day and actually help Judge are ya??lol,,,,,,Better study up a tad because if you know judging like you do ILF,,your gonna be booted to the sidelines for sure!

How bout the question I ask you earlier,,,still avoiding it too? Get out your Goggles and your can Hat cause you might not be able to think without them on your head?

Fact is,,most I know in the ILF World,,or as you call it the "Sandbox" have forgotten more than you know!

And yes,,you are "Reaping" everyday, especially here in this thread. Elohim Adonai

From: K Cummings Private Reply Date: 01-Oct-13

"Where did I recommend that everyone crank down their limb bolts tight?:

I didn't say you did HVR. This thread was about a person new to ILF looking for advice. All I said was if you want to crank the limbs on your own equipment down, crank to your hears content. But IF that is the advice you would give the person who started this thread, I'd question your judgment.

Take things in context and in their entirety guys, it bunches your shorts up less.

KPC quote

Now your being a Drama Queen! NO ONE HAS EVER SLIGHTLY suggested to "Crank" the limbs down!!!!!!!!!!

You are really trying hard to create a scenario that doe's not exist in this thread,,,no, if you have read any of my posts you will see from the very get go that I have quoted Tradtech with the word "Snug" Snug,,,,,snug,,,got it?

Yes Border limbs are thicker in the butts, they even require a special DAS Bushing and longer ILF fitting,,,Yes? Or did you know that already? lol

"To your questions, I don't think I have ever suggested that all limbs will bind. All limb profiles are different. (see picture) As a matter of fact, Hoyt limbs (on top) tend to have some of the least concave rockers in the business and they are less likely to bind. On the other hand, Borders (on bottom) have some of the most concave rockers. TradTechs (in the middle) are somewhere in between. It has been my experience that the more concave the rocker, the more likely they are to bind at the extreme ends of the adjustment range" KPC quote

Now your taking backwater to your initial statements. By the way, I tried four different limbs in my videos, KAPS, CC CARBONS, SEBASTIAN FLUTES, DRYADS. There were no Hoyts as you proclaimed earlier.

If you keep posting? You might realy get an edamacation on ILF,,lol

" Now let me ask you a question. When someone obviously new to ILF posts a question, (like the one that started this thread) do you think it's wise to base your answers on general quidelines for commercial equipment, or do you think you should tell him to do experiments like you or Hiram would do for a one-off project?

Come on, this is getting ridiculous.

As for what you do with your personal equipment, have at it. Crank to your hearts content. But if that's the advice you would give a person new to ILF, with unknown equipment, I'd seriously question your judgment.

KPC "

It is obvious by now that you are in trouble here. "ONE OFFS"? Really,,do you want to go there now? "Crank to your hearts content" quote,,,,,Yes,,you are really trying to see how dumb anyone is that reads this thread by re-writing your participation in this thread. You are now really entering into the Dram stage with your writing because if anyone reads this tread in it's entirety they will see that you are Inventing drama as you go.

You try to displace the blame, you try to tear down the opposition by elevating yourself, and at the same time try to convince people you actually know what your talking about.

Are you a College Drama Major and Politician? That is what you project. I am not so Gullible,,, Ta Ta

Oh and by the way,,thought you were done with this thread like 50 posts ago? lol Keep digging though,,Did you get hungry and eat the worm in your picture? YUMMY!

Or maybe next time try these instead? lol Now how is that for humor???? lol

KPC, you have a way of measuring that brass collar's length by the picture?

All ILF bolts need that collar for centering as you know. The length determines whether the limb can be snugged down tight. How can you tell from the picture that it is there to prevent the bolt from being tightened down too far? That seems a little presumptuous on your part!

Remember, you admitted that Hoyt had shorter sleeves, so just because a sleeve is there, doesn't mean that it is there to prevent turning down too far. I've had many setups, including a recent new hoyt excelthat allowed you to snug down the bolt with the sleeve in place.

Jim is no longer making bows, but some think that he is still making ILF risers under a different company name, since that company has a similar address.

Remember, I told you where you can purchase the sleeve stock. Just buy it and cut the sleeve to any length needed to prevent too much turn down. No need to wait for tt to make them!

High Valley Rance.

"All ILF bolts need that collar for centering as you know."

Not quite so true HVC, I am afraid, but you are on the right track - sorta.

Some ILF manufactures have limb bolts that do not use the sleeve as pictured above or stated by you, or discussed in the various posts above. Hoyt, for example, uses a limb bolt the has the upper or centering portion, the part that the limb slides onto, cast slightly thicker and is thread-less in the limb centering area, and has a collar cast into the limb bolt which is used to snug the limb bolt to the riser at the proper depth/height (whichever you feel is the appropriate term)for the initial maximum setting. I own one of these, so I know this to be true. I know other ILF high end risers have much the same, and I have seen and shot several of these. The limb bolt sleeve is only used on the "standard" type limb bolt 5/16X18 that is threaded top to bottom Limb bolt and length does vary with certain manufactures, that DASS, TradTech, Morrison, Black Creek, Dryad, and other similar risers use the standard limb bolt/sleeve system to properly align/center the butt end of the limb. I would also venture to say, but not absolutely sure, that most of the WARF bows use the standard sleeved limb bolt, and not the high end sleeveless bolt like Hoyt and others use. I say that because there are too many WARF builders around and each has their own style of application when it comes to limb bolts, and I for one certainly have not seen all the WARFS that are made by various builders. I hope this clears that minor picky unish issue up some.....

One additional note on one of my posts about sleeves. The 5/8" collard sleeve by Trad Tech is threaded, unlike other sleeves which are not, and a unintended by-product of having the threads is that there is no possibility of any "buzz" from the sleeves vibrating - thus a somewhat quieter bow,IMHO.

Now I will go get some popcorn, get something to drink, and continue to watch the "show".............. :)

>>>>---> Dave

KPC, you came in on the drum roll with the exact limb bolts I was just describing in my above post - THANKS!!!

OOOOOPS! Slap my hand er...fingers...I misread HVC's last thread - SORRY! He was NOT talking about sleeves, but collars....so I shall make a minor correction. Not all limb bolts have collars, but limb bolt sleeves somewhat act like them, unless like the TT optional sleeves, the collar is built in.....in which case is HAS a collar....

Now.back to the popcorn and such..............

>>>>---> Dave

Posted by Hiram -- "I'm not here for Humor,,I'm here to talk Archery and Bowhunting"

Then posted by Hiram -- the gummi worm picture with this "Or maybe next time try these instead? lol Now how is that for humor???? lol"

I am here for the entertainment :)

Boy, you guys make a big deal out of nothing! I admit, I misspoke when I used collar instead of sleeve as that what what we were talking about! No wonder everyone thinks that ILF guys are snobs!LOL But it was KPC who originally use the term COLLAR: "I also noticed that he uses (used) a brass collar on the limb bolt to prevent bottoming the limbs out. Do you think that was unnecessary on his part?

KPC"

Looks like a sleeve to me, because the washer is a different material than the SLEEVE, so maybe the great KPC made a mistake in his terminology?

You still didn't tell me how you knew that SLEEVE was long enough to prevent turning down the bolt just from looking at the picture? How did you know that? Because you used that pic of the SLEEVE as defending you position. Looks like a sleeve to me, because the washer is a different material than the SLEEVE, so maybe the great KPC made a mistake in his terminology?

KPC wrote: 1. I've handled enough ILF limbs to know that there isn't one on the market that is as thick at the limb butt as that collar is long. It's not presumptuous on my part at all, just experience.

ISN'T ONE??? And for what it's worth, the trad tech limbs I used on my hoyt excel were thicker than the hoyt provided SLEEVES.

"that collar is long" How do you know how long that collar is from the pic?

Dang it! I wrote collar again, because I was quoting KPC.

KPC wrote: I also noticed that he uses (used) a brass collar on the limb bolt to prevent bottoming the limbs out. Do you think that was unnecessary on his part?

KPC

I wrote: "How do you know how long that collar is from the pic?"

KPC wrote: By using my eyes and my experience.

Of the hundreds of ILF riser and limb combinations I have seen and handled, I have never seen one where the thickness of the limb butt has been greater or even equal to the length of the collar (or sleeve).

Now, the one in the picture of the BC bow might be the exception...but I doubt it.

--------------- WOW back to you. That my friend is called a presumption. You don't know for sure that it is long enough, you are only assuming it, so you use that to prove your statement? From the angle of that blurry pic, you can't even see the bottom of the sleeve! You don't know for sure, but you assume it is based on all your vast experience with OTHER MAKERS?

So we are just to believe you based on your experience, I guess.

Oh now that is really something to worry about KC,,the Carsage thread that recommends putting 50+ pound limbs on a plastic riser? Wow,,Some real geniuses kept pushing it even when failures happen and as the only Adult in the room with some substance in the form of a WARNING no to do it,,and by the same advice of Mr. Wert I might add, have labeled that a "Wow" thread?

You still have not answered my question?

Stickbow,,while you are eating your Popcorn, how many people do yu know personally that are building Warfs? I mean ILF Warfs?

Now is it true that someone else has actually built your warfs for you?

KPC,,Did you read the plastic riser thread yourself?

By the way,,I have a whole box of the junky plastic ILF spacers from Tradtech. If you put anything under an ILF limb like those things it is going to bind!

About the only thing those are good for? Maybe on a Gamemaster or Dorado but I doubt it.

Hal,,I'm glad you liked the Gummy Worms,,,Now off to actually build some ILF risers for my friends WHILE YOU TALK ABOUT IT KCP! LOL

Don't have a way to take pics right now, but found a pic of the riser with hoyt limbs tightened down. Again, this is the riser that I used to test your theory, and the limbs flat down DO NOT BIND THE BUSHING. I think that was the whole point of my posts.

KPC,,,I use a set of Dial Calipers,,Not my eyes to measure things. I deal in thousands,,you deal in guestimations,,

I am talking with a Guy about ILF that thinks he knows everything,,and actually knows very little.

I am very bored with this, no substance, no concrete answers, and the whole time I have made you videos and actually did machine work on a riser to ILF.

I am dealing with an Amateur, one who claims to fame and has not walked the walk.

Same deal actually with Stickbow? I think someone else builds his warfs,,have never seen a picture of any of his personally made conversions and as I remember it,,He gets confused about arrow rotation and paradox, and thinks it is about the arrow spinning in flight, lol

A walk on to the PBS,,and another self proclaimed Expert. I have "Walked the Walk" and have nothing to prove to any of you. Yes,,truley dealing with amateurs here...boring! Now that HVR,,he has actually done some conversions himself too..yet the two Amateurs here that come off as experts have really done nothing but talk. Many Amateurs Cruise here,,,,,seems to be the Norm. Much like shooting Instinctive,,they seem to be born Experts........lol Ta Ta

Keep building HVR,,I think your going places! Pay no attention to the Peanuts here,,Go Man!

Sam, to answer your sarcastic question to me - I know of several WARF builders that I have followed on other sites, including yourself, and a couple of fellas I know that do not do the internet, but I saw that you no longer do that, and your point is??

Sam, you have disrespected me in the past without good cause, and here ya go again, I never, ever said I made any WARFS to you or anyone, and never implied to you or anyone anywhere that I did. I have said I embrace them and I truly do, so why do you make a fluff about it? Is it for "effect" so you can "show your stuff" ? You very well know I had mine built by a friend and he did a fantastic job and I even posted this on another site which you were on in a thread you were posting on, posted a few of the early pics of the build, and even named the guy who was building it and you very well know that, as you and I discussed the builder at length in a cordial manner. Maybe you thought I forgot that huh? Now you somehow are implying that I have suggested that I made mine *shaking my head*. You are a real piece of work.

I do not need, nor do I desire to, send the world pictures of everything I own. Maybe you are simply upset that I didn't have you build it, I do not know. As for your remark about PBS - you are a Member, so what kind of PBS guy goes around dissing others because he is a self appointed expert. You are very well known in other forums for bashing and disrespecting others, and now you are doing it over here....

I never, ever said at any time I was an expert at any of this but I do have a LOT of experience with bows, bow hunting and have taken a pile of critters from groundhog to elk and more, and yes, even have some experience with ILF bows and have learned a lot about them, but never claimed to be an expert - you have. I have probably forgotten more about bow hunting than you will ever know. And in PBS, I am very respected (unlike yourself) and that probably bothers you as well because I have been around it since you were a little boy and was probably serving on Executive Council while you were in diapers or something similar and was also probably jumping out of a plane in some far away combat zone with a full load of 782 gear, or locking out of a submerged submarine off the coast of some far away place with 100 pounds of combat gear while you were playing with cap pistols, and playing cops and robbers. I HAVE walked the walk, big time,and did so for over 23 years.

I was merely sharing my experience here in this thread, and I thought that this was what we were all about, but it appears that some come here just to sarcastically bash others, and you seem to be at the top of that list. I guess I should have left it alone because EVERYONE knows what you do when you think someone is testing you or something. Never my intent, I was simply providing knowledge based on MY experience. I love to see and share information, we all learn from it, but I guess you know everything and have nothing to learn from anyone, or so it appears. For someone with your stated background, you sure have thin skin,.......

Now, that is all said, I need some more popcorn, because the show is really getting good now !

>>>>---> Dave

LOL,,be careful and do not choke on your Popcorn Dave! Got any pictures of your the Warfs you have built? I have never "Dis respected you or anyone else here or there! I am just not a Cake eater like you and so many others you associate with. I actually do it! Wear the patch with pride Dave!!

""YAWN".......... Sam, you simply do not get it, I have never built a WARF, said I have never built one, yet you continue on and on.... you are such a jerk........just a real "wanna be"...Your sarcasm is in print above to myself and others, maybe you are unable to differentiate between good conversation and an over sized ego trip.

I still have the PVT Messages you sent me a while back Sam, you have a very short memory about disrespecting others.......I keep stuff like that because ya never know when it will come in handy.

Oh, the movie is almost over :)

>>>>---> Dave

LOL,,,The fact is; I have Walked the Walk,,,I have been in the woods for years with a Bow and done my Hunts DIY,,and have nothing to prove to you at all! Oh but you did say you had built Warfs! Back up in the thread look?

"Jerk" well that may be synonymous with some of your Co harts in the so called "Professional" World of BS,,More like a Ego driven Cult than real life Professionals!

You much like KPC,,are supposed "Pro's" and "Experts" and self proclaimed "Professionals" etc. Actually it is all about the money and not about Preserving anything but Inner worship of the Elitist Core of the Special Forces of Bowhunting!

The same Joke is on display here with your ramblings and you have actually said nothing about the so called Binding of an ILF fitting.

KPC,,,this has grown very boring because you are a broken record,,you keep trying to re-direct the topic away from your own incorrect assumptions and offer NO SUBSTANCE!

Private message Dave? Post it! I have nothing to hide here or anywhere else! I to have many Drafts and records but I do not need to try and build a false case by insinuations.

Jiffy Pop Dave! lol

OK Dave,,,You are right and I made an incorrect statement with a misunderstanding o what you wrote,,I stand corrected!

"I have converted ALL of my ILF risers (that do not have a factory collared limb bolt )to accommodate the new Trad Tech optional collared limb bolt sleeves " Stickbow quote

I unlike others here, will admit when I am wrong,,so in this case you are correct.

Waiting Dave,,do we want to start posting PM's here or not? I have a library of them if you wish? I do intend to do more video's on my You Tube Channel about my personal experiences and how I was treated. I could certainly use a little more information!

Now on to the whole ILF binding post script of this thread.

It was said that ILF binds wound in to "Snug" and should be wound out to 2 1/2 turns by KPC.

This is not true! If the limb bolt bushing is of proper length, this should not be a problem on a quality set of limbs.

It really should not be a problem to snug any limbs down wound in to count out how many turns from wound in, to wound out on ILF.

Hoyt says they are adjustable by 8%,,with that, five turns is the recommended stopping point on wound out from wound in. Some could re-word this to maximum preload and minimum preload and would be correct.

Bottom line, if you are not sure about any of this, do as Dave pointed out and call the maker or seller for conformation.

Waiting Dave,,do we want to start posting PM's here or not? I have a library of them if you wish? I do intend to do more video's on my You Tube Channel about my personal experiences and how I was treated. I could certainly use a little more information!

Now on to the whole ILF binding post script of this thread.

It was said that ILF binds wound in to "Snug" and should be wound out to 2 1/2 turns by KPC.

This is not true! If the limb bolt bushing is of proper length, this should not be a problem on a quality set of limbs.

It really should not be a problem to snug any limbs down wound in to count out how many turns from wound in, to wound out on ILF.

Hoyt says they are adjustable by 8%,,with that, five turns is the recommended stopping point on wound out from wound in. Some could re-word this to maximum preload and minimum preload and would be correct.

Bottom line, if you are not sure about any of this, do as Dave pointed out and call the maker or seller for conformation.

I agree KPC,,it is all you and nobody else! You have not listened to anyone. Gonna try and garner some support from Dave are ya? You are alone in this pipedream you started here.

I really thought this was an information thread, not a "he said, he said" circus. I fail to see what any of this produces except discourse among those who otherwise have a lot to offer to other, and I am not talking about myself, for what do I know..not much apparently, according to Hiram. Myself, I support both Hiram and KPC, for they both have a world of knowledge among them, however, the P-contest between them, which somehow eventually got me involved, surely made this thread a complete joke. Someone wants information, and we all have some to share and that is what this is all about and it should be that way. Put aside the ego trip things and just get down to having fun and sharing information and experiences and help out each other with SHARING, not being sarcastic as that serves no useful purpose here or any where else.

Personally, I thought I was simply adding some information here, based on what I had experienced, did not imply I was an expert at anything, and what I got for that was a personal attack on my integrity and false statements about things I was supposed to have done (build a warf, for instance) All I said was I HAD A WARF. The real strange part of that was that Hiram KNEW I had it built because I told him so in another forum long ago!!!!

If I have said or done something here in this thread that was unacceptable, then I apologize for that, but I came here to learn, then share, and look what it got me........

>>>>---> Dave

No one has suffered here KPC. The whole thread has presented some very good information. I'm having a good day today and just got back from a hunt. Have you been yet? Maybe spend less time worrying and more time hunting? My thermacell worked very good this morning on the skeeters,, they ate me alive the last time but I have never used one Deer hunting. I do not know if they can smell them or not 20 feet up but it was nice to avoid the 30+skeeter bumps I had the other day....Good luck hunting,,,Peace love and hair,,if I had any? lol

Dave did you read this? I made an incorrect statement and posted this earlier.

From: Hiram Compton's Traditional Bowhunters Private Reply Date: 02-Oct-13

OK Dave,,,You are right and I made an incorrect statement with a misunderstanding o what you wrote,,I stand corrected!

"I have converted ALL of my ILF risers (that do not have a factory collared limb bolt )to accommodate the new Trad Tech optional collared limb bolt sleeves " Stickbow quote

I unlike others here, will admit when I am wrong,,so in this case you are correct.

"I really thought this was an information thread, not a "he said, he said" circus. I fail to see what any of this produces except discourse among those who otherwise have a lot to offer to other, and I am not talking about myself, for what do I know..not much apparently, according to Hiram. Myself, I support both Hiram and KPC, for they both have a world of knowledge among them, however, the P-contest between them, which somehow eventually got me involved, surely made this thread a complete joke" Stickbow quote

My goodness,,,I am not "P contest" with anyone! You guys are both totally tooooooooooooooooooooooo worried about this thread!

I kind of thought we were all having straightforward conversation and opinions. I went so far as to make videos etc. but I am not loosing any sleep over it......chill and go hunting or something..heck I have offered in open forum a kind gesture to KPC a free conversion to him for something to experiment with and maybe even shoot,,no hard feelings here fella's,, nobody is a bad guy here,,,,>>>>>---------------->

RECAP OF WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED:

Most manufacturers recommend that you don't snug down your undies too tight. This could lead to mental failure.

Bend over until they are snug and then bend back up a couple of inches and then you are good to go.

Having them too tight can cause binding IN SOME CASES AND IN SOME CASE CAUSE THE UNDIES TO EXPLODE!

If this happens, go hunting, and all will be well.

It's all Wyatt's fault!LOL

Nooooooo Wedgieeeeeeeeessssssssssss HVR! Just got out of the stand and no Deer,,,I guess the Coyotes have changed their routes too? Got to get on the ridges and Oak flats I guess because some acorns are falling here,,,got to find the mother load tree and hunt it,,

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