scanning e-Bay, I saw where some guys are mating Samick Sage limbs to the Cartel Triple 62" riser and trying to sell them for $170.00
Good luck. Since new Sage limbs are $70 and the riser is $40, their price is....aggressive.
But, the idea seemed sound and I had a set of used Sage limbs that I paid $40 for, so I ordered a riser from Lancaster. It showed up today.
WOWIE! Limbs fit perfect and with a skinny b-55 string I had lying on the bench, within minutes I was shooting the center out of my target. AND, the chronograph says 187fps with a 10gpp arrow!
The limbs had limbsavers on and there were beaver silencers on the string, so besides speed and accuracy, the bow is also amazingly dead in the hand and quiet.
Bottom line is for $110 new, this setup is fantastic, equaling or beating the performance of my classics and customs.
I REALLY recommend this combo, not just for newbies or an in-the-truck backup, but the bow will run alongside any bow of ANY vintage or price.
I think I was just called a technological Luddite.
Dear longtang, I politely decline. I am not shilling or promoting this bow, simply sharing my experience for the benefit of other Wallers. (grin)
Yes, I got the riser from Lancaster, yes on FF because I put them on all my bows anyway and just didn't get the chance yet tonight to build one for this bow.
I do plan on posting again after the new string is on, but as for enhancing my "social media" presence, no thank you.
The choice not to be on the grid any more than I am now is deliberate, and I think shared by a lot of us geezers. After living through so many technical advances, we are tired of what are in our opinion, solutions to problems we didn't even know we had and IMO not worth learning since we already have brain files stuffed with how-to's that became useless too quickly.
I may not have written it well, but the return to simplicity that drives many trad archers is in conflict with deeper participation in a technology driven society.
Cool, unfortunatly, I see a major problem - it's wrong handed!! Seriously though, if you can get that performance with riser, limbs, string, and shipping for around $150 - then I don't see how you can go wrong. Not real attractive though.
Cool, unfortunatly, I see a major problem - it's wrong handed!! Seriously though, if you can get that performance with riser, limbs, string, and shipping for around $150 - then I don't see how you can go wrong. Not real attractive though.
Cool, unfortunatly, I see a major problem - it's wrong handed!! Seriously though, if you can get that performance with riser, limbs, string, and shipping for around $150 - then I don't see how you can go wrong. Not real attractive though - No offense.
I recently traded for a bear black panther riser with intentions to do the same thing. When I got the riser I bolted the sage limbs I had to it and it was only about a half an inch longer than the sage, so I took the fast flight string I had and slapped it on and wow! It shot way better with those limbs on that riser. After hunting season I plan to get another set of limbs and a string and put it together properly, but I was very surprised at how easy it was to make that work.
I love the guys who say, "not too attractive." Like a bow has to be pretty nowadays to be in the running for anything. Seems to be a symptom of today's society though.
I believe the Cartel riser is solid composite, so they can sell it cheaper than others. So you want pretty too? How about arrows flying at 187fps and hitting the center of the target? That's pretty to my old eyes.
Love it Rick. May have to try that myself. Oh wait...I already have an ugly, black bow with take down limbs. LMAO at some of these guys.
Hi George, thanks. No 4nolz, just this grip which isn't attached with screws, but seems to have been molded into the composite and is a higher angle, which happens to be my favorite.
Got dark on me and I spent the PM buying an old beater 3wheeler which I'll take to hunt camp tomorrow where I can do some accuracy at distance testing before I putt-putt out to the deer stand.
I have a suspicion the composite nylon molded riser's very makeup is why the bow is so stable and quiet, its much lighter than the wood versions too; and I also suspect when I get a Barbee design string on her, there will be another speed boost.
I'm so impressed that I'm eyeing my new ILF setup and wondering why I spent the $$ and I already have my other non-classic Samick up on e-Bay now.
If this bow performs like I think it is going to, out with the ILF bow. That'll leave me with 2 over 60" 3D bows, my '61 63" Kodiak Special when I feel like channeling Fred, and this "Black Thing" when I want to win the competition.
"Pretty" is subjective, but I'm with George. Real beauty is an arrow flying fast and true, the rest is just cosmetics.
Oh, BTW, the Sage and this riser as well, pull into the stack around 28" or so. I LIKE pulling into some stack and draw about the same as George at 28" or a bit less. If you really need more draw, I'd buy the limbs #5 lesser weight and take advantage of the stack to up the actual poundage.
yorktown5 the Lancaster site doesn't show the length of the riser nor the length of the limbs so what is the length of the complete bow? Also what is the finished draw weight and the rated draw weight of the limbs. Trying to find out what I'd have to order to get the weight I'd want and if it would be short enough to be worth doing. Thanks!
"I love the guys who say, "not too attractive." Like a bow has to be pretty nowadays to be in the running for anything. Seems to be a symptom of today's society though."
I look at it as functional art, I love pretty bows. I like anything made with fine wood. I have two pretty bows and would like an ugly plain jane one but I have two other pretty ones on the must have list first.
Doesn't mean they shoot any better but they sure do look good missing the intended mark.
I use some composite-type risers for the Kids Camp. They are super lightweight risers and the shorter-limbed ones are pretty fast. What poundage is the bow you put together, Rick?
I love the guys who say that a bow is pretty, based on it's performance... which then seems to empower them to be condenscending towards those who say "not too attractive". LMAO at some of these guys.
It says Polaris limbs. I find that Polaris and Sage limbs are interchangeable. I shoot Sage limbs and my wife shoots Polaris. I can't tell the difference. The Polaris limbs top out at 40 lbs. You can gently sand off the silkscreen with Scotchbrite or steel wool. You can put some camo tape on them, paint them, decorate them with snake skin, magic marker, etc. For anyone who is interested, I know a guy who does really good camo dipping.
The riser is made from nylon polyamide which is a type of plastic and has been around since the 1930's so I guess that makes it traditional <:{) (that's an emoticon I just made up - guy with a Robin Hood hat and a mustache looking "all traditional" as the young people say):
1. The Sage proper is in my experience a very fast bow and apples to apples I don't think this riser added any speed. It is lighter weight and slimmer overall with, again my opinion, a better grip feel and natural pointing.
1A. BTW, as I was fiddling with dimensions, tiller is zero and I noted the balance point of the bow is exactly at the grip/wrist. I set the nock point up 3/8ths on the new string. My garage target only allows a 10 yard shot, but three of the first 4 arrows were touching and went exactly where I was looking. Had to quit. Shaved only one feather off that time but busting nocks was too likely to continue.
2. It is a #50 limb set and that's what I get on the scale. Arrow was a 495 gr MFX 400..I didn't try to draw to an exact 28" so my pull thru release probably added a smidge to the thrust.
3. There are a LOT of limbs that'll fit this riser. Remember the 80's Bear TD Hunter? Wing and Browning had ones too. OMP, PSE, Internature etc. etc. Basically a 19" riser all, I've seen 58, 60 and 62" variations. Limb pockets take a 1 1/2" wide limb base and a single hole-no pins attachment.
4. From the pictures it looks as though the shorter nylon Cartels also have a shorter limb pocket, so while the triple 62" takes both the polaris and sage limbs, I'm not sure the smaller risers will also handle the sage. Anybody know?
5. I too was concerned about strength. I have a low end aluminum ILF riser with #44 limbs. I CAN detect riser torque/vibration in that bow. NONE on this one; its rigid and twist free.
George, I'm glad I amuse you. I didn't say that I wouldn't buy that bow because it was ugly. I actually said I didn't see how you could go wrong at that price and performance. I also noticed on another thread that you didn't mind showing off your pretty Shakespeare bow. Don't judge me based on one comment, because trust me, I own lots of ugly things. You ought to see my truck. LOL.
You don't amuse me. I simply responded to a derogatory comment, "it isn't very attractive." That phrase wasn't positive in any manner, so I responded with my opinion. Sorry you had a problem with it.
Anybody think there's a chance that one of those could be shot off the shelf? That's one riser where I don't think I'd be too intimidated to take a file to it...
I admire beautiful wood, but then once you've put camo paint or tape over it....
Ok, another day of mini adventures. When I got to camp, I just HAD to play with my new/old 3 wheeler....pull rope broke on the second pull@$#%$&*....did you ever try and replace one of these? Especially when you have limited tools?
2 hours later, I gave up and then took out the bow. Ok, impressions?
The 3/8ths up on the nock point was wrong. Shots went WAY low, the ottertail silencers on the new string weren't as effective as the beavers on the one I used yesterday, and the string was still settling in. Besides, I was hoping arrows I already had would be perfect...but they weren't quite.
4nolz, the grip popped loose on one shot. Popped it back on, it's a snap fit and a little glue will take care of it, but it didn't come off again. Can't grind on it though as it is plastic and not solid like the riser proper. Don't see how to make it a low wrist and still have enough spring in the plastic to snap into the provided grooves on the riser. But sans grip, and it looks like one could get creative and build up just about any shape desired.
Late PM, I wrapped some rope around the Honda's shaft and she started on the first yank, so I drove out to the woods. Hadn't been out since last week, and while off topic, here's one reason why I wasn't focused on the bow.
Lets hope the photo loads this time. A ten pointer made a scrape within 6 ft. of one of my trail cameras. 3 does and 3 lesser bucks have visited. THE RUT HAS BEGUN!
Drat! I also got shots of a BIG bear nosing the buck's scrape, but the Wall doesn't seem like it likes pictures tonight.
I wasn't really in full hunter mode, so I repositioned my cameras, did some scouting and fired up Little Red to get back to camp before dark where I had time to set up the chronograph.
Didn't get as much of a speed uptick with the new string as expected, but DID hit an honest 190fps...more testing later.
I took several different size arrows in spines from 64 thru 70+ pounds and weighing 468 to 521 grains, and since I didn't have my bow-fix kit along, couldn't move the nock set. So I backed off to 35 yards and using a LOT of Kentucky windage, I had to hold over the target, but still managed a soccer ball size group. (Even on a good day, I'm not much better than that anyway) Hope the photo loads, but 69-70# seems about right.
I remain impressed and am confident that with a fully stable string, some tweaking of 'arrahs' a lower nock set and different silencer set, she'll be a keeper.
Oh, BTW, found another reason for a takedown bow as Ernie, my Root Brush Master took more than a few hits as I broke trail on the trike.
Trying the buck shot upload again. The lesser bucks came during shooting light, but with all the action, I'm going to wait for this guy.
Last, I forgot to comment on the Off The Shelf Q. See that felt strikeplate on mine? It's about 3/16th thick. All you need do is stick a second one on the shelf for a perfect setup.
This is the Wally World rest since these are felt under the lamp pads from Wal-Mart.
Some 9 and 10+ gpp arrows spined #69 at 40 yards. I needed to take brace up to 8 3/4" to find the sweet spot. That plus adding more silencer, and it now takes a 9gpp arrow to flirt with the 185-190 fps speeds. No surprise that raising brace by nearly an inch slowed her down some. But she's now tuned, ready and shooting to the same sight picture as my other "keepers".
Well, not that I'm that serious about this, bit...
If you want hunting weight, you're going to shoot Sage limbs off of this; so why not spring for the extra $20 and get the Sage riser as well?
OTOH, if you were looking for target weight, you could go with the Polaris limbs and be out the door for under $100.... which is actually a better deal than the Polaris 62 or 66...
Do you suppose there are any types of paint that will stick to the composite?
You did great, thinks much for info, I'm also a lefty, and about Geoges comments I dont believe he ment any thing bye them, I took them more as a light humor, wish I had the money to put one to gether like that, please keep us informed should you stick a nice deer with it soon?
I think one advantage to this riser would be if you wanted to bow fish. I had thought the Sage would be great for this which it is especially for the cost, but a synthetic riser would make it even better expecially for it's cost, and still keeping the Sage rise for hunting and looking nice. DANNY
YES I do have an update/suggestion. Re-thinking the shoot-off-the-shelf Qs. I still thought the bow should shoot better and on close exam, the wide and flat shelf was showing feather drag marks.
I had mounted the flipper/walmart button rest as low as possible and set the nock height accordingly. So I went just the opposite way and set the rest higher, at the same height as the unused plunger hole.
Nock set upward only 1/16th from center. Snuck around to the back of the garage just now where I can shoot 20 yards without annoying neighbors. First 3 arrows made an X ring group you could cover with a 25 cent piece and get change back.
I am NOT that good, really I'm not. But dang, that was impressive. I like this bow. My first impressions remain. Amazing performance, amazing value.
More explaining still. Because the riser allows a full center-shot option, the felt pad plus the thicker double sided tape holding the flipper now have the inner edge of the arrow sitting minus 1/16th inch. It seems only logical now, that while we know that the closer to center we can make a bow, the more forgiving it is but it still needs shelf clearance.
That very forgiveness was hiding the shelf clearance.
So, in sum, sure you can shoot this off the shelf with a really thick side strikeplate, but you will either have to build up a high shelf rug or grind away all that extra wide shelf.
Actually, sticking on a plain old Bear weatherrest would be about perfect, both for height and close-to-center.
Rick
Yes, the limb bolts are standard size so any bolt head will work so long as its base fits the limb bezels.
Thanks for sharing your discovery, Yorktown5. Sorry if this is redundant or a dumb question but to clarify, when you say any limb bolts will work, I take it that the original Samick Sage riser limb bolts will work with the $40 Cartel riser?
I have a buddy that's looking to get started with a recurve. He's currently shooting one of my old DACO recurves, but it's only 38# and he quickly outgrew it. I think I'll buy him this setup so he can take the next step.
I have to thank you SO much for this compatibility tip: My hurting shoulder thanks you!! While I love wood bows (I just heat treated half a reflex deflex today) I also love my ILF barebow (I stripped off the olympic recurve accoutrements like sights and bodacious stabs and sold them when I felt out it just wasn't me). But the Samick Agulla heavy metal riser has been getting to my bad shoulder a bit in weight. I almost bought a Samick Sage for everyday but now I'll go with the lightweight Cartel and I can put a little forward weight in that lower threaded stab hole if I feel like more forward tip follow through. THANKS again 100%!
Hi York: How are you? I am in the process of building the $40/$70 type of bow. I know you said that with the needed brace height, the Sage/Cartel combo now shoots ~185 to 190 fps.
How does this compare with your ilf rigs at 50#, (assuming equal gpp).
Do the ILF rigs at 50# get about 195 or 200? I am just trying to get an idea of the speed vs. price curve.
Ideally, I would like a flat shooting bow. I wonder if I can get away with 8gpp on the sage/cartel at 50#.
thx! I really loved your thread and your description of the tight groups you got once the feather clearance issue was solved by moving the rest higher.
This is just an update. . . even with all the recent talk about slowing a bow down, or speeding a bow up . . . I have not wavered in my mission to build this cartel 62 with sage 50# limbs.
My mission is to get a bow in the mid 180's using a 9gpp arrow.
The reason for 9gpp is for efficiency. Of course 10 gpp is more efficient, but 9gpp is going to get mid 180's.
I keep on checking in at Lancaster. Initially it was going to be 10/31/12 for shipping. Then, it was November 9. Now we are looking at much later than that.
However, my mission has not changed. I will never waver until I get my cartel 62 in black.
I have been getting good info from yorktown and others and that is how I arrived at the speed and gpp. I also sifted through the post on the farse and truth about arrow speed (I uploaded that entire thread to my kindle and am reading it on my kindle. I am about 1/2 way through). I gleaned a few useful things from that post. Mostly, though, I started with this thread. And I am just giving an update that I am still, unwaveringly, moving towards that final destination of the cartel sage.
Nothing has changed Shin' I'm even starting to use the bow as my bad weather hunter (made up a few arrows with vanes vs. feathers as this bow shoots vanes just fine).
As I told you in the last PM, there is no bow price vs. speed price curve. This setup will equal or exceed the speed of ANY bow, new-old, production-custom.
It WILL deliver the 9gpp speed you seek, might even do so at 10gpp with a skinny FF performance string like Rick Barbee makes.
After reading this thread when it first came out. I decided to try it out. Unfortunately I am also stuck in the "backordered" limbo mentioned above. It is frustrating reading all these great things and not being able to try them out. But waiting should make the arrival that much sweeter.
I have 2 bows in my bow rack, a custom pronghorn 3pc zebra wood riser with amberboo cores and zebra wood veneers very pretty bow that has seen action once in the last 2yrs and my ugly ILF that gets shot everyday. How they look has nothing to do with how they shoot...PR
yes, peter D. . . I am in backorder stuck . . . Looks like many ppl have read this thread and ordered the cartel :-).
I did buy a full Samick Polaris 66" at 24#. I think I am going to buy a pair of sage limbs tomorrow and put it on the polaris riser just to hold me over until the cartel comes.
York: I think peter and I will let you know when it all comes together :-). Also, I think I can order some skinny strings from R.Barbee. In so far as that . . . should I just order some 62" strings? thx!
Painted Sticks PR: got a pic? of your set up? what is your set up? just for kicks.
yes, peter D. . . I am in backorder stuck . . . Looks like many ppl have read this thread and ordered the cartel :-). I did buy a full Samick Polaris 66" at 24#. I think I am going to buy a pair of sage limbs tomorrow and put it on the polaris riser just to hold me over until the cartel comes.
York: I think peter and I will let you know when it all comes together :-). Also, I think I can order some skinny strings from R.Barbee. In so far as that . . . should I just order some 62" strings? thx!
Painted Sticks PR: got a pic? of your set up? what is your set up? just for kicks.
Ordered the riser today from Lancaster and ordered the sage limbs from 3 rivers; they have a lot of limbs in stock, while Lancaster did not. Will first try 45# limbs due to my long draw. Should yield around 50#. By the way, as of this morning, Lancaster had plenty of black and blue risers in stock. I would have taken either color, since it will get the camo krylon treatment soon anyway. If this works out as well as discussed above, might have to retire my heavy GMX target bow for general purpose work. Thanks for the thread and the great info.
I'm excited to hear of the results you guys get. Got a PM this morning from a Waller asking what I recommend to make the bow fully center-shot, and thought it better to answer this way.
We don't WANT to make any stick-bow fully center-shot, even though most target type risers make it possible.
DEFINITION: For our purposes, center-shot means the CENTER line of the arrow, not the edge, is in a direct line with the string and bow's direct power stroke.
This works on a compound bow, but not a stick bow. Because we release with fingers and the string rolls across them on release, we always ALWAYS introduce some lateral torque to the string. This slightly pushes the arrow inward against the side strike-plate and the arrow launches itself partly by spring-boarding away from the sideplate.
Without that springboard affect, arrow flight suffers AND we also get feather drag since the arrow had nothing to flex off of on release and so be flexed away from the bow as the feathers pass.
There are slight differences as to what's perfect for a specific bow, based mostly on the actual arrow shaft diameter being used, but ideally the best results are with a strikeplate thickness that has the inner edge of the resting arrow on the center line of the bow's power stroke (the zero measurement point), or just a little shy of center, like +1/16th inch.
This gives the arrow the needed firm sideplate to spring away from, flexing just enough to clear the feathers as they go by.
On this Cartel riser, we also have the typical target riser's wide shelf, and so bows of this shelf design need the arrow to also be sitting high enough off the shelf to get under-the-arrow fletch clearance. IE either some sort of elevated flipper rest OR building up the shelf rug high enough.
Several ways to accomplish this. Use a plunger button and flipper as target bows do which allows you to adjust the plunger side pressure and fine tune the bow to a specific arrow.
Simple stick on rests such as the Bear weatherrest have a thick base and an extension that when measured is often the perfect thickness to sit the arrow at that zero to + 1/16th ideal position.
Another simple solution I wrote of earlier is to use 2 of those felt under-the-lamp sticky pads. One for the strike-plate and another for the rest..what others refer to as the Wal-Mart arrow rest.
The last PM also asks about string silencers. Others have tested effectiveness and the cat-whisker/rubberband style (properly built) is the most effective with a strip of animal fur (usually beaverhide) so close it takes a decibel meter to detect any difference. (It ain't the fur, it's the leather doing the dampening, but the fur looks cool.) Usually a fur silencer slows the arrow, but only an unimportant 1-2 fps.
Rick Barbee has settled on wooly balls for his strings, I guess due to a combo of dampening but with minimal speed loss. Personally, I use Beaver.
Yortown, I just recieve my riser today so tonight I built a string. Then put a leather rest on with a matchstick underneath. After using my Bieter center guages to determine that the arrow was sitting off to the right a bit (I'm a lefty) I set the nock height and put a few arrows over the shelf and into my target at ten feet or so. From what I can tell it is going to be every bit as awesome as you said. Tomorrow I take it outside to try it at range.
For your info it is 50#@28" and 62" long. I draw 28.5" My arrows are sitka spruce 60-65 29" with 125 grain points and 5" banana fletch weighting in at 525 grains. Thank again for this post. It was a lot of fun putting it together although I am not finished yet.
If you watch the second volume of Masters of Barebow, you will realize that more than anything, a very accurate and simplist fine tuning tool one has is a plunger. This tool is more useful (because it is so darn simple).
One of the most important things--more than tillering, ILF or anything in arrow tuning (in so far as fine tuning) is the ability to adjust the side plate. (OF course, if you really argued the point, you could say that the same thing could be accomplished by moving the ILF wt up or down, or by cutting shaft or adding point wt).
The sideplate adjustment is important in that it makes for the simplist (and, therefore, more conducive to good tuning) way of stiffening or weakening the arrow. This is the reason I need all my bows to have a plunger that is adjustable.
By turning the plunger a 1/8 turn at a time and tuning, one is able to get very very precise tuning. In masters of BareBow, David Soza showed his way of dialing the plunger. It is so amazingly simple and accurate! I love it!
Sure, you can make the argument that the same thing could be accomplished by cutting or using a longer arrow, or by dialing the wt up or down on the ILF bolts. However, the advantage of the plunger dial is that it requires no tool and it can be done very quickly. And gives immediate feed back.
So, I require all my bows to have a adjustable plunger. It helps achieve good arrow tuning.
There is nothing more important than a highly tuned arrow. A plunger is a very helpful tool. I mean, sure, is it absolutely--life and death--necessary? No . . . there are other ways to accomplish the same thing. However, a plunger makes tuning so much simpler. It leads to better tuning because of the ease. I am uncompromising in my requirement of a highly tuned arrow. So, a plunger is a requirement.
Good thing that the cartel trip has a plunger hole. I am going to get an adjustable plunger dial for the bow. It will make my fine tuning super accurate and simple.
So, above everything (above ILF, above expensive bows), for me the cartel, with its plunger hole is the most important. Why? Here is the logic: Arrow tuning is the most important. A bow that allows one to accomplish good arrow tuning is a good bow!
Does anyone know if the Cartel stock limb bolts can be replaced with counter-sunk allen bolts? I think this would give the recurve a much sleeker appearance.
I don't know why flat head bolts wouldn't work, thread size is standard. The ones that come with the Sage or the Cartel allows no-tool installs vs. needing the Allen wrench, which is why, I'm sure, they use bolts with knobs.
R.
Shin, I agree on the plunger. More formal 3D competition usually bans mechanical/adjustable rests however.
I have one bow, where to make the rule, have sealed and locked the plunger, once tuned, so that it can't be adjusted.
No point in a discussion over it, a "technology" line has to be drawn some place.
Well here is mine. She I ordered it a month ago black was back ordered so I got the blue riser. It shoots awesome so while at work yesterday I painted it. We will have to see how the paint holds up. I used a hard plastic straw from a small mylar happy birthday balloon and put velcro over it. Love this bow. I took a turkey at 40yds with it last month.
Here is a pic of my turkey and bow I think you can see a little of the blue riser poking out. And yes I have a barbee string on this set up it is amazing. Best shooting bow I have
Got all components in and assembled. Put on a nap centerest flipper that was lying around. Made a bcy trophy string. Brace height is at 9" until strings settles in a bit. Shot a few 500 carbons with 100 grain points, as this is the arrow I use in hoyt gmx of same draw weight. Have 45# limbs, and these hit 49# at my draw. A few first impressions: - bow shoots much better than cost would suggest, - the snap on grip makes a loud buzzing noise; shoots much better with grip off. Gives a low wrist grip just begging for leather side panels - bow is not as fast as hoyt with same arrows, but is fast enough. But then, it did not cost 800 either. Thanks for the thread. This will make a great hunting bow for very low cost. I recommend it to anyone.
I finished tuning the bow. I quickly realized shooting off a rug rest was not the best thing so I built a raised leather rest which I then shaped to get rid of the feather contact. You may be able to see it in the picture I put on. The more I shoot it the better I like it. Yorktown really put something together. I also raised the brace height to 8.5" and it really smoothed out.
Not a great picture but if your computer is lit enough you can se the black top to the shelf. I basically raised the shelf to the height it would be for a plunger. I also sealed in a small foam build out under the riser leather to soften any arrow impact although there doesn't seem to be any. this bow is almost as light as my longbows, quiet, stabile in the hand and is just a dream to shoot.
Here is riser with left side panel installed. While my sage wood riser is actually a bit lighter due to wood type used, this fiber riser sure feels nice when shot. Currently working on right side leather filler; it is proving more challenging. Glad I did easy one first.
And for those asking why go to this trouble, I guess it is why I make/fletch all my arrows, make every string, etc. Something to do.
Here is right side panel, much different in size. The grip actually felt great with only left panel installed, but wanted the right filled in. I used two pieces of my thickest leather, about 10-12 oz., glued together with titebond II. I then cut the pieces out using a cardboard model already preshaped to fit. The slabs were stained with cordovan kiwi shoe polish. They were glued to riser with Quick Grip adhesive from walmart. It seems to work like barges cement, only costs less.
Now that this bow is hanging on rack next to his brothers, it is easy to see why this combo is such a snappy shooter. The cartel riser limb pockets have much less deflex, making the limbs come out more reflexed, than my other bows. Hanging next to a hoyt gamemaster, one of the very fastest shooting bows I have ever owned, the little recurve is much less deflexed. This causes the limbs to have a lot more preload when strung. only time and a lot of shooting will tell if these limbs can take it. I suspect that they will do fine.
I looked at Lancaster and they seem to have the risers in stock and the limbs will ship in the first week of December, most weights anyway.
So this combo makes a 62 inch bow, is that right?
Is there a list of compatible limbs that can be used on this riser in case someone wants a shorter hunting weight bow or even a longer bow than 62? It seems as though the only HUNTING WEIGHT limbs Lancaster has are the ones listed, the Samick Sage limbs.
Please post a list if anyone has one or post what limbs you know work and a list can develop on its own.
Thanks for this great thread. I'm gonna have to get me one, maybe for XMAS.
ok. so, in terms of answering Barbee's answer sheet . . .
What length string should I order?
Here is his work sheet for the barbee string.
For the cartel with sage 40lbs limbs, what is the answers to this answer sheet? Thx!
I am ShinBone.
cheerios.
here is his worksheet, as Barbee buyers may have seen before:
thx!
Name Address
email
Phone Number
1-String Only, or String With Silencers 2-Material Type & Color 3-Length of string (Describe - Performance Specific measurement, or AMO measurement) 4-Loop Size (Large, Medium, Small, Extra Small 5-Type of bow, bow length, bow draw weight 6-Serving for (Split Finger, 3 Under, Custom) 7-If custom serving, give measurements here 8-Type of Arrows, and Arrow Nocks 9-Silencer colors if other than matching string
I and others seem to find the bow likes a brace height around 8 1/2". The critical measurement is precise length, string nock to string nock at YOUR preferred brace.
I just measured mine. Brace is just under 8 1/2" and actual nock-to- nock string length is 58 1/2". That's the length I'd give Rick B if it were MY string.
Then just let Rick do his thing on loops and center serving.
thank you :-) This is great :-). I thank you for taking the time to help us.
Hopefully this answer can also be used for others who are wondering the same thing :-)
cheers.
And here is a little video of my little helper at home. He is my infant and he is a helper :-). He is Two yrs old and a Thanksgiving Baby. Just turned two.
cheers. Video supplied only meant to brighten your day . . . as it does mine when I watch it :-). If there is one person's day that this infant can brighten, it is mine. It may do the same for other fathers and archers :-)
Rick, you hit a winner on this one. Took the new cartel/sage 45# out to our wooded 3d range today. It shoots like a dream, very flat and consistent. With the factory grip discarded and replaced with leather side panels, the riser sits flat against the palm every time for no torque. Folks were amazed with the speed generated, all for a bit over $100. and quiet too. Might have to make another.
I think Lancaster should be paying me a commission. (Grin)
I have about a dozen keeper bows that have "survived" all my performance tests and accuracy requirements. And as a retiree, I get to hunt daily if I want to.
Normally I have 3-4 bows in the truck that I rotate, but over the last 2 months that's changed.
Now I have my little custom K-mag hanging in the hunt camp trailer and the only bow in the truck is "Blackie", and I keep scanning e-Bay for other trade labeled bows Samick and Ragim have made with this same limb and pocket design.
There are Bears, Brownings, PSE, OMP, Greatree and I don't know what all else from which one could make a bow with the Cartel 62 riser.
In fact, while I ID'd my bow in the original post as Sage/Cartel, my limbs are actually from a Sage they built and labeled as the OMP Smokey Mountain Hunter.
It would be really fun to show up at a 3D shoot this summer with a bow with limbs labeled Bear Takedown Hunter or Browning and have it outshoot the bows of guys with Bear Takedowns (which it will BTW).
I wonder too. An 8" shorter riser will UP the poundage of a set of limbs by about 8 pounds of draw. That's IF the limbs have an even ability to flex when bent WAY more than they were designed to do. I have a suspicion they won't and you'd end with a bow that stacks hard at a draw length short of 28".
WOW! I just received my bow today and all I can say is that I am very impressed. I paired my 62" Cartel Riser with: 35# Sage Limbs, Bearpaw Fast Flight string, two sets of Brush Buttons, and a GWS arrow rest. I removed plastic grip and did my best to install wood into available spaces. The bow looked very sleek, and unassuming (it's a real sleeper). Paired this setup with Beman 500's and it was basically shooting darts. I have no chrono, but I'd say it was easily casting arrows faster than other recurves and longbows that were 10-15# heavier (I understand I can't substantiate this claim). Not only was it fast at this light poundage, but dead in the hand and unbelievably quiet(this was shocking for me). In short, at $140 total for me, it's most definitely a keeper. Thanks to 'yorktown5'. I will post photos tomorrow.
I do have a question or two--with a 30" draw--40 lb limbs ordered--what string length should I get ordered? Figured on fast flight. Also--I was planning on gold tip carbons --what spine should I purchase? I figured on 125 grain broadheads and 4 inch feathers
Every time I put an arrow across it, I am more impressed. Today I spent some time sanding off the excess leather rest to ensure I was getting no feather interference. It just gets sweeter and sweeter.
So is this prefered over the sage ? The price is close to the same and apparently the grip is garbage on this one, buzzing noise , pops off as stated in previous post. Also the sage is said to be a heavier riser, to me that sounds like mass in the right place, one reason Widow is popular. So if I wanted a takedown wich one is better ?
I just ordered this Friday and received yesterday from Lancaster. Blue cartel 62 riser, 50 lb limbs.
I had to order the blue riser, but this will ultimately be a beater/ hunter. Of course it will get target practice, every hunter practices. But it's not my intent to make it a 3d shooter or anything like that.
Interesting...... The box was in great shape. Everything was packed well. They included a 62 inch string. I assembled it, made sure limbs were seated properly, and strung it using a bowstringer.
Pulled it back ....I draw ~27-28, and it didnt feel right. Riser had a noticeable flex. Drew it back again to anchor, and "BANG". Top limb delaminated............. Called lancaster, they are sending me a pair of replacement limbs out.
Anybody shooting this setup (62 cartel triple, 62 Samick Sage limbs @ 50lbs, 62 inch string, braced at around 6.5 inches) and pull to 28? Does the riser feel like it flexes? I dont mind that it does, as long as it will hold. Just that first time I pulled it back, it almost felt "too tight"..... o'course, I have never had a limb delam on me either. Scared me for sure. So now the waiting for replacement limbs....... Good features from very limited first impressions....
Price was right, around 130 shipped to me WITH an additional string. Looks like a beater bow should, not extremely aesthetical, but clean lines and profile Assembled, felt light in the hand. Dont care for the high grip, but that is easily and cheaply remedied. gotta love a takedown. Limbs fit snugly into pockets, and bolted up solid with no slop. No twist in the limbs.
I am wondering if I should have gone to 45lb limbs... I thought that maybe that first tightness was stack. But then, no way....definitely not pulling farther than I should be, anchoring tip of middle finger at corner of my mouth.
Will add another post on experiences once the replacement limbs arrive. I may turn this into a "tech" recurve...I just sold my compound. I may try my release, and a whisker biskit I have laying around. Put a padded FF string on. Stabilizer and limb savers.
Just posting my experience so far, and despite the delam, its still positive. Just hard playing the waiting game :)
I got mine a few days ago. Only string I have is the one furnished with the sage limbs. 16 strand Dacron.
After shooting a 100 or so arrows through it I'm happy with My purchase. A quality string will make a huge difference I'm sure.
I stuck a Bear weatherest on ( only thing on hand } Shooting down My hallway at about 10 yds. My arrows are grouping nicely. Bow isn't picky on spine. I've shot CE 250's , 45-60 Carbon Rebels and some GT 35-55's out of it. 40 lb. limbs drawn to 30"
I'll be putting a couple more together for bowfishing. I think this will be a great combo for that. The riser seems bombproof.
Thanks Yorktown5 for posting about this combo. I don't think anyone could go wrong buying 1.
Farmer, I don't know what to say...all I can do is speculate what you felt was all in the bum limb. Keep us posted. BTW, that brace height sounds way too low.
Have shot my cartel 62" with 45# sage limbs for hundreds of shots now. No flexing at all is felt, arrows fly fast and silent. Using a bcy trophy ff string. 500 gold tip carbons, 125 points. Has a nap centerest flipper installed, cause I had one. Have a sage bow as well in same poundage. Cartel riser has less deflex, hence arrows fly faster than sage. Sage does feel a bit heavier. Cartel riser is narrower at grip, and is easy to modify to fit your hand, after throwing away the nasty plastic factory grip. I like it so well, I have a 50# one coming Monday. I draw to 29.5" with no issue. This riser can take it. Once in a while, I guess bad limbs get sent out, but I have yet to see any first hand. The sage limbs are some of the best finished and constructed economy limbs I have tried.
I agree the brace IS low.....planning on twisting some brace into the string but don't know if I can get it to 7.
Funny thing, ha. I ordered a 58 inch string for another bow, and I called the tech support guy and told him what happened, and he immediately assumed that I had strng it up with the 58 instead of the 62.
I told him no I had used the62. But even if I HAD used the 58, it would not have caused a failure like that---simply stringing it up!
Keep your fingers crossed for me that it's just luck o the draw.
Just to be clear Farmer, the Cartel/Sage at 62" AMO WILL want a string of about 58" in actual un-broken in length give or take material/stretch/twists. All so far seem to agree the bow likes a brace height of 8 1/2" plus which measures out to a stabilized string and correct # of twists length of 58.5", nock groove to nock groove. Thats about where you'd end up starting with a new B-50 or B-55 at 58" after breaking it in and twisting up to correct brace. With a Fflight type and less stretch, a string 3" shorter than AMO length is probably a better starting length.
I have been sitting on the riser for quite some time now . . . I am still waiting for my local pro-shop to come in with 40 lbs limbs. I like 40# because I draw very long to over 30+ inches. So, I am looking at some stacking and the bow to be about 49#+/- when said and done at my anchor.
When my local shop has the 40# limbs, I will then have a good bow. In the mean time, I suppose I could try my 24# polaris limbs just to test drive the cartel riser. I might do that when I get around to it.
:-)
I like tinkering.
I have a bunch of other bows, so I will be doing the comparison shooting and then deciding which one will be my go to bow for shooting every day.
I suppose one could never have too many bows. I mean, how does the saying go? . . . time spent fishing doesn't count; and money spent on archery is for hobby :-), and hobbies are good. --so,I suppose it is better than spending on prostitutes, right? . . . See? when I put it that way, then it makes a lot of sense to spend a lot of money on archery, right! :-)
Damn I am smart!
hahah.
Anyways, I now have various bows in different states of being mailed to me.
1. Polaris 66" 24# 2. Cartel riser, waiting on sage limbs from local shop.
3. Black Swan Super Arvid 50# 62" (I love this bow) (arrived 3 day ago) I have vids of it here: http://www.youtube.com/user/yztyzt1/videos?flow=grid&view=0
4. Tradtech Titan riser and medium Carbon Extreme limbs (in mail) 40# BF extreme Limbs and Titan 17" riser.
5. Morrisson ILF 15" with 35# and 45# carbon limbs. (Here already)
6. My first recurve was a Greatree 45# Goshwak. I will be selling this one.
7. I want to buy a 4x lam long bow. I mean what I am missing is a long bow. And Looking for a quadruple laminated one at about 49# @ 30inch draw.
After that, I think I will be done with getting bows, and can decide which ones to keep and which ones to re-sell into the classifieds area.
:-)
My friend in Orange County has a few Black widow and other nice bows. I plan to shoot some of those to see what the buzz is all about with the BW and 21 century bows. I am going to try those out to see the nice things about 21st and BW's.
Boy! I am getting in it deep now! But, I am having fun and making sure that I only get good deals. This way, reselling would only hurt me about 10% or 20% in money (and shipping/swapping/insurance).
Along these same lines I brought home a bow yesterday to do a little repair on to a damaged tip. Our collegiate archery club received bows and other equipment from the Easton Foundation. The bow I brought home is a KAP SF by Win WIn 66" LH at 18#. These can be purchased through Lancaster for around $120. After repair to tip which was damaged during shipping (riser dented it)I spent about a half hour shooting it today. Shooting 3" groups at twenty after getting used to the trajectory.
I have no chronograph, but the bow is impressively fast for 18#. I may be shooting this one for a while and see if we have some stiffer limbs to try out!
Looks exactly like what I need to do with this one. The only thing I would change is the the grip height, and that looks like the perfect solution.
My limbs arrived yesterday, got a chance to put a couple test arrows thru. Shoots very nicely, but will need the normal tweaking. These replacement limbs feel TOTALLY different that the first set. If you remember from a few posts up, the top 50# Sage limb delaminated on me on the 2nd or 3rd pull. During the draw, it felt extremely stiff....felt like stack, only not exactly....can't really verbalize, just felt like something was wrong. Anyway, Lancaster sent me a replacement set. Drew these back to full draw after a few "settle in" pulls, and it felt sweeeeeeeet. I pull just under 28, so may have been a few lbs less, but man!! Felt like pulling back 40.... May have to put in on the scales. I shoot carbons, and weight them to~ 500 grains, with as much foc weight as I can get. May camo dip the riser, may not.....it is a medium blue, not sure if game animals could make it out any differently.
this bow will get target shot, but just for hunting practice. Strictly hunting duty. It hit like a hammer in the target. Should be a good solid bow for 20-25 yds with heavy arrows. Once I get it setup like I want it, I will post pics. I am thinking it will get a rest, string loop and release, maybe a sight. I am building my 2nd longbow for my trad shooting.
If I get some time around Christmas, I will post some chrony numbers with hunting weight arrows and snuffers up front.
This bow seems perfectly suited for hunters, needing a cheap bow or a cheap backup. Dont know how the riser will perform in extreme cold, or heat....but we know it will be different :) ....just not to what degree. Not alot of play where the limbs connect, which is good for consistant reassembly, but bad for any tiller adjustment one might hope to get with takedowns. Seems (naturally) much quieter than metal riser bows. Just hope I can find a lower grip solution, shouldnt be too hard.
Thanks to OP for posting this. First impressions are that it will pull whatever duty you want it to, and very "on the cheap". I love it when I dont have to work a week to pay for good performance.
Papa Doc, I decided that mine must have leather grips also. I want to do a bit of modification to secure my hand position and of course a touch of decorative carving to spruce it up can't hurt any.
