Hy there! A couple of weeks ago I bought a used Damon Howatt Mamba and now I´m wondering if I can shoot a fastflight string on that bow! I don`t know anything about the age of the bow... The Limbs of the bow are black and the riser is made of some nice greenish wood. The tips are also green and what I also noticed is that they are a lot thinner than the tips of the newest Martin Mamba. The bows serial number is Hm 21151. It would be great if anyone could tell me more about this bow. Thanks Kevin

If the limb tips are black 'Micarta' then it's designed for fast flite strings.

Pictures would help.

(And, yes, G. we know!)

I have a Mamba that I purchased brand new in 1993 and the serial number on mine is HM 3375. Mine was not designed for fast flight string and I'm willing to bet that yours is not either. A B50 Dacron string is what came with the bow.

I hope the photos help. I couldn´t find out much about the serial number. Some people wrote in forums that the first number indicates the year (e.g. HM3375 would mean that the bow was built either in '83, '93 or 2003). I have the impression that the serial numbers of older Mambas have only 4 digits while mine has 5. I´m posting this in this forum because I read somewhere that Larry Hatfield is here and that he knows a lot about the Mamba.

Laminate riser but no 'Martin' logo, I'd guess a 1992 model. The German label seems to indicate that it was made for export. I'd stay with dacron strings.

A friend shoots a newer Mamba and does very well with it (meaning he cleans my clock regularly!) They're very good shooters.

I think it is an export model. The sticker is from an austrian bow shop that doesn´t exist any more (I tried the phone#). I bought the bow on ebay. It´s a really good and very fast bow. I very happy with it, but a couple of days ago I tried a new 40# Mamba with a ff-string and that bow had a lot of power... so I wondered what would happen if I put a ff-string on my 50 pounder... I don´t want to destroy the bow, so if it is not suitable for ff I´ll keep sooting the B50 Dacron string.

Howatt bows had re-enforced tips (black micarta) beginning in 1995.

Probably a 1992 given the SN and pre-FF tips.

BUT! Pad the loops and the bow will take FF ok.

R.

I think the ´92 guess is very good... I just found out that the shop where it was bought isn´t in Austria, but in Germany. I thought it was austrian because of the 4 digit zip code (Germany has 5 digits). Google just told me that there is no austrian town called Dorsten... only a German one... So I did some research and learned that Germany had 4digit zip codes till ´91 wich means that the sticker on the bow is older than ´91. When they change something like zip codes they usually give you a couple of years to get used to the new system - I think it is a ´92 bow and just the sticker is older. Thanks for the help in finding out the age!

I´m gonna try the FF anyway... I will pad the loops and use an thin string (8 or 10 string) because a thinner ff string is a little more flexible than a thick one and should therefor be more gentle to the bow...

Do I just have to add some extra strings in the loop area or also further to the center (where the string touches the limbs)?

Would it also be possible to add some "hard" material to the tips? Something like a piece of horn that I file to the right shape and glue it on?

Nice looking Mamba! But, for the liitle bit of extra speed that FF string offers, is it worth the trouble and potential risk of damage to a fine bow? The Mamba is one of the fastest recurves around anyhow, so why not be safe and just stick with Dacron B-50? Anyhow, its your bow, just my 2 cents worth.

we built that model mamba from 1985-1996. it is not ff compatible. you can get the same speed as ff by shooting a 10-12 strand dacron without damaging your bow. that is what i would suggest.

So the guy who actually built the bows says no dont FF...and it begins again.....thanks Larry.....shaking head....wow this place is like a High school at times

I was thinking the same thing.

I'm new to this forum and very interested as it's been a while since I bow hunted...just started shooting again in the past year as I have a stepson who's interested and we shoot twice a week. I have a Mamba that looks exactly the same as this, except it's a 55# draw weight. I bought it from a friend in 1992. It's serial number is DH 6803. Based on the information from Larry Hatfield's post on October 11, 2012 I want to confirm it was built in 1986. I shot a few deer with this bow and it is very fast and consistent in grouping. I would like to also confirm the suggested draw length...I had it set up at 6 5/8 " which is below one suggested draw length but within another (I've seen two ranges of draw lengths for the Mamba) but it seemed to shoot fine with feather fletched XX75 2213's and Bear Razorheads. What would be a good replacement string for this bow (number of strands etc?)...I have a replacement string I bought when I obtained the bow in 1992 but wonder if it's still sound...it was stored at room temperature in a cabinet out of the light. Thanks for any info.

no disrespect to tommy boy, but the tips are not re-inforced at all. there is the same laminate used in the riser applied to the back of the tips and as such are subject to delamination of the plys with fast flight strings. i would use dacron, 12 strands, with an actual length of 54" if it is not under tension when measuring. then just twist or untwist to get the brace that you like.

I have one just like it that I bought new 1998 - 1999. it came with a B50 endless loop string. I don't think I would try a fast flight.

Same bow was my go to bow for almost 22yrs....I would not run a FF on it either....I ran a flemish on mine and it very quick at 55lbs....no issues with speed...your not gonna get much more out of a fast flight anyhow...the force draw on those is sick...very powerful little bows...I tend not not disagree with the people that actually designed and built the bows...

Short version:

Arrow speed boost averages, all else as equal as practical:

Crappy overbuilt typical endless loop swap to 9-12 strand best-built B-50 = 5-8% uptick SAME as average built Flemish Fflight (D-97) over B-50 endless.

Average built Fflight or best built skinny B-50 swap to best-built custom skinny PADDED LOOP fflight = another 5-8%

That 5-8% is real, but depending on archer factors amounts to not enough change to be significant (changes in trajectory or delivered arrow energy so small that they can and are mitigated by small changes in arrow weight or broadhead sharpness). And may not even be enough for some archers to detect.

But advancing to a best built bow-archer specific custom string provides another 5-8% boost vs. an average built fflight. That spread from bad string to best string IS significant enough for most any archer to detect and usually anyway, appreciate.

So in some sense, everybody is right. Larry's suggestion of 12 strands of B-50 as plenty for a pre-95 Mamba with plywood overlays instead of putting a typical average length average twist, average material low-stretch (D-97) on that bow and there would be essentially the same improved performance either way.

But take it to the next level with the very latest materials (My friend Rick Barbee uses stuff double the cost of D-97), on a string exactly built to the brace of a specific bow, and the vintage classic bow performs alongside the best of today's customs.

Worth the risk? No proof there IS a risk, but much evidence that bows built before the introduction of low stretch strings do just fine if the string loops are built up to the diameter for which the nocks of older bows were designed.

Another 10fps of arrow speed and another 1-2 ft. pounds of energy worth it? Well, under the belief that too much energy is always enough, perhaps. As a confidence builder? Perhaps. Because that hi-performance string makes the bow more shootable? Some believe so, but I think the same reported sound/feel improvements can be gained with a best built skinny dacron string as well.

So in sum. The best built Fflight string IS better on the order of 15% than the strings that came with many vintage bows originally. You can get about 1/2 that speed/power improvement with a best-built, fewer stranded B-50 (I still pad my loops on these as well) or about the same uptick with an average built 12-16 stranded D-97 grade fflight material. (Many new customs are delivered with such a string.)

But within this window of around 20 added feet per second to the arrow as we calculate Kinetic Energy trading speed back and forth for more or less arrow weight, and the terminal energy change delivered by the hunting arrow is too small to matter much.

Last, while others cite improved bow manners with the Barbee style custom string, I do not doubt it when compared to poor specimens. But it is possible any such improved shootability is because of the number of strands and how the string was built; not so much what material was used.

rick

flight shooting has taught me about the ills of having too much weight and/or mass at or above the nock on recurves and longbows. thats why i prefer to go with a non built up loop and a 10 or 12 strand string. on my longbows, i grind off almost everything above the nock. when i shoot the bow there is zero movement of the limb or tip when the string has went to the maximum forward point. thats pretty significant to me. the nocks on those mambas are pretty big.

I suggest you listen to Larry. That guy knows more than all us combined about your bow and what is best for it.

Larry,

Am I reading you to say only that you prefer not to add mass to a loop because more mass impacts a bow's cast?

Or are you hinting that more tip mass = more vibration = more potential fastflight string damage?

Rick

Interesting thread. What year is this one. I haven't got around to making a string for this bow yet. Suggestions welcome I have lots of Dacron for this one. Cameron

To follow on Larry's comments - Fred Anderson made extremely fine limb tips to keep weight to a minimum even using vermillion as an overlay since it had less mass weight than similar materials. If one is looking for the maximum potential of a bow then heavy strings, silencers, etc. all add weight and subtract performance. This is especially true of weight on or near the tips. On the other hand most of us never see the difference in hunting bows with stuff thrown on the string.

I respect Larry's opinion on this and everything else related to Howatt bows but I will confess to using a Rick Barbee fast flight string on my 68 Howatt Hunter. After several thousand shots I see no ill effects. This one had wood overlays. On my 62 Hunter I added fiberglass tip overlays as it had none. I realize that the extra weight from the overlays may negate any improvement in performance but I can use the same length string on both bows so I don't need to have different back up strings.

IMHO It is your bow use whatever string you like, but when the man who designed the bow says not designed for FF then that should be your answer.

+1 on what Carolinabob posted...

Naturally the 60s bows weren't designed for them. Fast flight didn't exist then. Does that mean it's a bad choice? My experience says no. Like I said, I respect Larry's opinion tremendously and I realize that I am taking my own risk. Heck, there are other boywers that do not recommend fast flight for their bows but there is no warranty involved here. I have confidence in the design and the makeup of the string. If the bow breaks then I've been warned.

I have several old Damon Howatt recurves..All over 65#@30" draw.. Hi-Speeds..Ne Plus Ultras..Yakima..A bit before Martin..

I use Brownell's Fast Flite 3 splice 15 strand bowstrings on them and they work fine for me..

I also shoot arrows ( wood) 9-10 GPP).

No padded string loops or skinny strings..

Either can shoot a 30.5" wood arrow (=700 grains)over the chrono with fingers & cordovan tab at just a tad over 200FPS..

Doesn't need to get much better than that for the archer-hunter..

But for those who have Howatt-Martin bows and don't know how to make arrows and bowstrings?...Listen to Hatfield..Jim

I don't think I need anymore performance paperwise with my 60lb Hunter...my own arrows and my Dad strings....when it blows thru a whitetail at 20yrd and thru the bone...I've only been bowhunting for 32yrs mind you..a lot less than the pros on here...and don't have the coin to damage bows as the army just doesn't pay all that well....I hate telling others what to do..none of my business...I'm just a newbie LOL

I'm not sure that any of us said we use fast flight because our bows don't perform well with Dacron. And, while I do own a few bows, I would never do anything that I believe would damage or destroy one. I take very good care of my equipment. While I would never tell someone to use fast flight on older bows I will relay my experiences which have all been positive.

Truth is that I didn't start using fast flight on older bows until a few years ago. By that time I had been bowhunting for over 45 years. This fall was my 50th bowhunting and I'm still learning. So there's still time for you. :)

Can someone explain (for someone getting back into archery after a hiatus of 20 years) exactly how a fast flight string would theoretically damage the nocks on a bow of this vintage? As I understand it, the materials used in the nock could break down (would it be delamination?) but is it because the material in a fast flight is more abrasive or not as stretchy? I have learned a great deal from the comments so far. Many thanks. Peter If I do need a custom B-50 Flemish twist string where are some good sources?

IMO it has to do with Delta V, change of velocity over time.

The FF brings the limb tips to a stop much more quickly, so a similar amount of force is applied to the limb tips over less time, which means higher stress. No matter if the tips can handle it. But if they weren't designed for it you're rolling the dice on whether or not they can take it.

I'll use Nascar as an extreme example. A vehicle goes end over end sliding down the front stretch in a spectacular crash and the driver usually walks away. Dale Sr. careems into the wall in what initailly appears to be a rather unremarkable crash and he dies? Why? Delta V... Dale Sr's crash forces were compressed into a very short time and his body couldn't take it. The other driver dissipated all that force over a much longer event, he didn't get the "spike" Dale Sr. received and he's okay.

That is an extreme example but the same principle applies regarding FF strings and limb tips.

I have a Mamba just like that one, it's a nice bow with B50 I'd not put FF on it, try a thinner B50 like Larry suggested if you feel the need to experiment.

Thank you SlowBowinMo...that's informative.

If it were mine & there was ANY doubt at all, I'd use B50. I might use it anyway, I like B50.

After reviewing the entire discussion (that wasn't started by me but was dealing with the exact same bow as I needed advice on) I'll be using a custom built B-50 fitted to the brace. I've shot quite a few deer with this, my go to bow, and would not be happy if it was damaged...too late once the toothpaste is out of the tube!

Hello, I recently bought a Mamba from same era( HM 6344);my question is,what is the correct brace hight for this bow? Thanx.

Thanx for answer;considering my draw lenght is around 26,5 ,an 7 1/2 brace height you consider ok for it? thanx

Thanx for answer;considering my draw lenght is around 26,5 ,an 7 1/2 brace height you consider ok for it? thanx

I just shoot what works and don't care about that extra speed just controllable accuracy.You do all realise a miss with some rocket launcher ain't going to bring the backon home, is it?Fast is Ok but I just don't see a need for it.I love 58" recurves and hope to aquire a mamba one day .The wing red wing is another one that comes to mind too.I wouldn't risk a Mamba or Red wing for a few fps.Larry has my vote. OSR

I have recently acquired this very similar black Mamba from Windstrut and wanted to confirm the age and any other info I could gather. I has a serial # of H.M.4824 so I think it may be a 1995 as the first of the four digits is a "4" and per Larry H. above, "we built that model mamba from 1985-1996." so it can't be a 1984.

If anyone has any other useful and interesting knowledge of this model bow, I'd appreciate the knowledge transfer. I did swap out the endless loop string it came with for a D97 but that was before I read this thread. I may now alter that decision.

Thank you.

Will

It's a 1994. The design changed in 1996 as they no longer built the "plywood" laminated maple riser but went to bubinga and ovankgol.

The Hunter was made the same way and went to purple heart in 1995.

I had one that I sold earlier this year...decent recurve and I took a few deer with mine in the same weight.

I opted for a few same length Hi-Speed's built in the 60's and early 70's..

Pdiddly, thank you. When you say that the Hunter was made the same way, do you mean it was made from laminated maple plywood too? I don't recall seeing those so I hope I can find a picture somewhere.

Willmac,

why would you put a FF string on that bow when it consistently shot 191 to 195 FPS at your 27 inch draw, it may have shot faster at my 28.5 inch draw, I don't know. Why would you want it to go faster?

Larry Hatfield said it was not built for FF string, This thread should have ended there.

Some folks may have gotten away with using ff on their bows, but what would you think if the limb broke, I should have listened to Larry,...it would be too late then, play it safe, you have a faster than normal bow there and very accurate shooting one also so take care of it, the bow is heavily built but I wouldn't take the chance. It was Identified as a 1994 when I had it, actually I bought it in 1995 if my memory is working today.

Sorry for the lecture, I would hate to see something happen to that bow even though it's yours now and you can do what you want to, it's always best to listen to the masters (referring to Larry) I believe Larry probably had something to do with that bow, give him the respect and credit he deserves.

Will, (the last two lines were for the other folks)Ha!Ha!

I'm glad you are enjoying that bow, I did for twenty one years......wing.

Heh I think there has been a failure to communicate . . . Lol on my part. I did not mean to infer, state or impart that I would ever put a FF string on that treasure of a bow. In fact, the opposite it more true. I was not sure that puthing a D97 was the right choice and may go back to one like the original. Me English write good now. Thanks for caring enough to gently chastise me Wing, I appreciate it.

Will, I'm afraid that writing a comment on here doesn't always show the true feelings, I wasn't in anyway chastising you, I was just calmly asking you why! I guess it's just the way you read it. Maybe I'll do a video next time Ha!Ha!

I know you understand, I was doing this mostly for the folks that thought anyone could get by using FF string.

My mistake also I was thinking that a D97 was a ff string, I don't keep up with this modern stuff, most of my bows are old enough to be on social security....Ha!Ha! I know that you will take care of that bow that never crossed my mind.....wing

Yeah I believe that D97 is classified as a FF so back to what the original OEM is for that bow. I will be taking pics of it and show the chrono'd stats too.

Lots of pictures of the laminated maple Hunter's on here. They were brown and not gray/green like the Mamba's. Very common bow..

Here's one I sold (made in 1992) to the left of a 1959 walnut and rosewood Hunter, which was the first year they made them.

Here's a closeup of another one...

This thread was one of the first I commented on after joining the LW after an almost 20 year hiatus from archery. At the time I decided to heed the counsel of the posters and did not use a low stretch string on my older bows.

That was then and this is now. I have become more educated through hands on research and now have no such qualms.

Have BCY-X on a bunch of bows and there's no looking back...a properly designed low stretch string will not make a bow explode...in fact, it has the opposite effect. Smoother and quieter.

Thanks Pdiddly, there is not an Anthology of Damon Howatt Bows database or book so I am so happy there is the LW to ask questions. I never would have known things like this. I could not tell from pics that those are "plywood" and I do love that look with the dramatic grain patterns. I appreciate this resource of knowledge so much.

The "plywood" term is the slang reference to the maple laminate risers.

The grain is very striking and they'e a great design-stood the test of time for decades.

If you look at the picture I posted you'll see the limb design is the same in 1992 as it was in 1959. That's the original reason I took that picture.

The Mamba was the same length as the longer Hi-Speed but has a different design. They're a good recurve.

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