Can anyone tell me something about Dave Miller's Old Tom model Hill style longbow. I own and have shot longbows from Craig Ekin and Louie Armbruster and would like to know how Dave's bow performs in relation to these.Are Dave's bows an exact copy of the old J.Schultz bows?

Thanks Dave

Dave: David Miller, is probably one of the premiere bowyers of today. I would not be afraid to purchase one. I have not shot one of his Old Tom's and I doubt that any bow will be an exact copy of anyone elses, there will always be suttle differences. Bob

Howdy Dave,

I own a David Miller Old Tom that I bought used. It is meticulously crafted and beautifully finished. And it shoots extremely smooth. Mine is a string follow version, 64" 40#@28".

David was a student of John Schulz and learned Howard's bow building technique from him. I have not handled a Schulz bow, but I also own an Ekin Hill and a Pete George Timberline Highlander. Pete was also a student of John's.

That said no two bowyers build identical replicas even when "copying" Howard's design. The biggest difference I notice is in the limb tips. This is a major identifying characteristic for all Hill bows that have been built for Howard Hill Archery, as well. It seems that this is the area where each bowyer "makes his mark", so to speak. That seems to be the case with other bowyers making Hill style bows themselves. For instance, Pete George bows have extremely small tips. Miller and Ekin have larger tips, with David's being more graceful in my opinion.

Bottom line, you will not be sorry with David's work. He is a master bowyer and from what I hear a hell of a nice guy to deal with. I hope to someday add a few more of his bows to my stable. They're that good.

Good luck.

I saw one at a club I went to (the guy is on here) sure looked nice, shot well too, maybe that was the guy, can't remember.

David Miller is a master bowyer whos workmanship is as good as it gets, I own two of his bows with another coming, His all wood or laminated all wood bows are the absolute best. I dont know of another bowyer with equal skill making a non glass bow. I dont own an old Tom model but everything I have heard about them is positive, that they are very smooth and quick and great workmanship. David is a real stickler about limb alignment and limb timing and tiller. You will receive a true custom bow made by a perfectionist. Ron.

I second all of the above comments. I have a Split Bambooo and it draws lighter than it's 58 pounds and flings an arrow plenty fast. Also, Dave is a heck of a nice guy and can really give you a history lesson when it comes to Schultz and Howard Hill and their bows. At my age it is probably my last bow and by damn I picked a good one.

I would caution you that the arrow rest is not center-cut, so you will probably have to shoot arrows pretty closely following the actual weight of the bow (pull). That said, I have to admit part of my problem might have been a pretty ragged release I developed pulling heavier bows inside (and letting down) during the last Montana winter.

Whatever, I highly recommend the Dave Miller longbows.

For the record, most (if not all) American Semi-Longbows (ASL) are not cut to center. I'm pretty sure they are mostly cut 1/8"-3/16" before center. Not being centershot is part of what defines them as ASLs.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Dave

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Dave

You can't go wrong with Dave Miller, his bows are works of art and excellent performers. I have five of his bows and will probably order another one when I see him in Kalamazoo in Jan.

You can't go wrong with Dave Miller, his bows are works of art and excellent performers. I have five of his bows and will probably order another one when I see him in Kalamazoo in Jan.

Dave, I own a Old Tom and LOVE it. I have shot all of David's models except for his unglassed Concave/Convex which he has never had one in a comfortable weight when I have visited him. He is a perfectionist. I can nitpick anyone's bow apart except for Dave's. By all means give him a call he will be more than willing to speak with you. The last I talked with him he was 6 months out. I try and talk him up as much as I can for good reason. Flint

Photos please.

"Photos please."

Tonkin cane, no glass

Ron that bow is Mine you just don't know it yet , Lucy !

Lucy, You can't HANDLE a bow like that...8>)

I got him to make me a Schulz cheetah which is a reverse handle hill . Cant say I've ever shot a better bow.

Waiting on a new Hawk. The concave/convex construction with no glass. Should be here sometime soon? Went to see Dave and spent a couple days with him back in Nov. when I ordered the Hawk. Waiting is getting harder as time moves along. In the mean time, just have to shoot the Old Tom -- darn the luck.

Arne

The top bow is a Miller Hawk the center bow is a Miller split bamboo and the bottom bow is a John Schulz split bamboo all are bamboo no glass. The Hawk is a very quick, quiet shooting all bamboo longbow with convex concave designed into the limb construction with takes more time to build. David Miller is an artist that builds great hunting tools that are works of Art.

A "Sage", bamboo& osage, string follow, all wood. Great bow !

An "Old Tom", brown glass and 3 lams of bamboo. Backset profile. smooth, another great Miller.

just one more shot, Miller "Sage""

Here I have a Miller Split Bamboo, proud of it like a peacock and you guys come up with pics/collections of three of Dave's bows. I've been telling myself I'm too old to be spending more money on bows, the Split Bamboo will do me for the rest of my shooting days.

Then here comes the Sage and the Old Tom and the Hawk, etc. I'm retired, guys, and on a fixed income, if I buy another Miller bow I'll have to do something drastic...like get my wife a job!!! Problem solved!

Love the looks of the Sage.

Beautiful bows guys, would love to have one of his bows someday! I love the simple, but elegant profile of those American longbows. Thanks for the pics!

Yep as far as I'm concered Dave Miller and Nate Steen make some great bows!

I've been patiently waiting for my Expedition since last September. Dave tells me the limbs are glued up and tillered. The woven glass backing will go on next week, then tiller and then the belly glass, tiller again and then the myrtle riser. Looks as if it will be ready by the end of the month.

I'm jealous. He and Steve Turay make some really fine longbows. Mr. LaClair makes a fine longbow too.

Heres a photo of a Miller Hawk 66"amo and 48 lbs at 26" Dark Mrytle riser with Madaki bamboo on back and Moso bamboo on the belly. Its my favorite hunting bow. Ron.

another close up photo of the riser.

another photo.

Top to bottom Split Bamboo, custom Old Tom, Split Bamboo, Expedition and Hawk

Another of the Hawk

Another of the Hawk

Another of the Hawk

Forgive the triple post, I don't know what happened.

This thread is now the new rival thread to the HH thread at the other site!

To date I've had a Pete George, (2) Sunset Hill's, (5) Howard Hill's, (4) Big River Hill style, a Mahtanago Hill style, and a David Miller Old Tom.

Of these the David Miller was the best shooting bow and equal or better to any in terms of fit and finish. The Big River's were a close second in terms of shooting.

Wapitidung Do you recognize the third bow down, the Split Bamboo, it used to be yours.

A string follow Sage. I truly cannot say the string follow Sage is slower than my backset Old Tom. The shooting quality is simply different. Both are superb. Hand shock difference ? Hand shock (to me), seems to come from incorrect hand placement. Or if a bow is badly tillered, and the limbs return not in synch, .... that will result in so-called shock. In short, a string follow bow is a worthwhile style to try. You might like it for a variety of reasons.

For those that have spent time with David's non-glassed bows how do you feel their lifespan measures up to a glassed counterpart?

In terms of cast and fps how does the Hawk compare with a more standard glass bow with flat ground bamboo lams?

I have a 2008 Miller split bamboo with an inch of backset built in for a little extra speed and after 4 years and much use it hasnt lost its back set, its exactly like the day it was new. I wouldnt worry about an all bamboo bow built by David Miller. The only concern might be letting someone with a much longer draw shoot your bow, I draw 26" and would never let anybody with a 30" draw shoot my 64" longbow. I always unstring my longbow at shoots just so somebody dont pick it up and overdraw it and when I let somebody try my bow its always with my shorter arrows. I expect all my Miller longbows to be around long after I am gone,I am hopeing my grandsons will be shooting them. Ron.

I should have added I also have a Miller c/c c/v Hawk and its a bit quicker than the regular split bamboo, I have never cronoed them anf never will, I would guess maybe 10 to 15 FPS faster at the same poundage. Ron.

Do you feel that the Hawk is as quick as a glassed Hill style bow with the conventional, flat ground lams Ron?

To many variables to give a definitive answer, but to hazard a guess I would say it has to be very close, also they doent have that slight buzzing in the hand you get with glass bows. The all bamboo Millers have a smoothness to them. David is a stickler about limb timing and string alainment as well as dead on sstring alignment he is a Master of the all bamboo bow IMHO thats why I own 3 and have another coming. Ron.

About ready to call Dave Miller. Got my wife a partime job, now looking for another (for her), then I'll call David. Might also sell the dog. No, I'll keep the dog and sell my wife's car.

Serious question: to those that own both the Split Bamboo and the Sage, does the Sage draw as smooth as the Split Bamboo? Both in string follow style and all wood.

About ready to call Dave Miller. Got my wife a partime job, now looking for another (for her), then I'll call David. Might also sell the dog. No, I'll keep the dog and sell my wife's car.

Serious question: to those that own both the Split Bamboo and the Sage, does the Sage draw as smooth as the Split Bamboo? Both in string follow style and all wood.

I shot my Miller "Tonkin" bow today at the GLLI

It shot VERY well

Ron - Its good to you Still Hittin Em Like Howard Hill!

David is the best all wood bowyer alive.

Rossco, I think this thread would like to hear of the chrono results you have, which has the Hawk, as fast as an Old Tom. Non-glassed being then faster, because of it's design,cc/cv, than glassed.

I have three of his bows; an Old Tom, a Sage, and an Expedition. In all honesty I have to say, they are all "equal". There are different shooting qualities to each, but all are completely enjoyable to shoot.

Miller bows are "top shelf".

David is the best all wood bowyer alive.

Not takeing anything away From Mr Miller at all,but that is an awfully bold statement considering the likes of others,such as John Strunk,Dean Torges and a few others.

As Ralphie mentioned John Immordino was kind enough to run a very comprehensive list of Hill style bows through a chrono for me as I'm on David's list and can't decide between the Hawk or the Expedition.

Speed is not the sole dictating factor for me but never having shot an all bamboo longbow I was certainly interested to see how they perform. End result was that the Hawk shot right with the glassed bows in John's testing (with some bend a little faster and some being a little slower.

The big surprise was that the lightest bow (a string follow Old Tom) shot the same arrow the fastest....

Traxx I am entitled to my opinion like all others. You know absolutely nothing about me, except that I believe David is the best all wood bowyer alive. Gimme a few more names to compare him to while your at it.

Yes Pearl,you are entitled to your oppinion,be it right or wrong.Why do i need to know anything about you personally,to dissagree with a statement of yours?Have you shot bows from Every Maker of fine wood bows,to bestow that claim on Mr Miller?I bet Mr Miller wouldnt be so bold.Like i said,nothing against Mr Miller or his bows.He is a very educated man who creates absolutely fantastic works of art and function and i would never say a bad word about him.But...to call him the Best Alive,would be a bold and foolish claim to make when others out there are in the same class,such as Nate Steen, Jim Rupp, Japp Kopendrayer and i can think of others,if you need em.Besides,Technically,Mr Miller doesnt to my knowledge,make all wood bows.He backs and laminates with Bamboo,which is not a wood,but i think you allready know that,dontcha.

Todd you are correct bamboo isnt a wood its a grass that being said its a fantastic material to make bows with, David Miller is one of the Top bowyers in the country today building laminated american semi longbows. The guys are just giving him his dues for his decades of sticking with the Howard Hill techniques that he was taught by John Schulz and has perfected. The great self bowyers you mentioned have thier special skills also and certainly deserve recognition also. Its great we have so many talented bowyers.Ron.

Your right Traxx. I retract my opinion. I need to shoot everybody elses bows to have an opinon. I will get back with you at a later date. Sorry to have wasted your internet time.

Pearl ... Your compliment is well meant, and Ok by me.

Enthusiasm, in your case was fashioned into a weapon, and used against you.

Forums of opinion are less populated with understanding, than (I think) they should or could be.

There's a lot of good bowyers and bows out there. Here's the group I shot with yesterday at the GLLI, Left to right, a Northern Mist,a HH Archery, my no glass Miller and a Dave Johnson cedar bow. We had a great time and everyone respected each others choice in bows.

Manybows, I knbow exactly who David Miller is and what he makes and i agree with you,that he is one of the Top bowyers in the country today building laminated american semi longbows.I can even understand and agree with Pearls enthusiasm,over Mr Millers bows.Had he said something like,Davids bows are the Best i ever shot,or i like davids bows above all others,i would have had no objection and posted nothing,but to say the best alive,is a bit much.All of the Bowyers i mentioned,also make Laminated Semi long american longbows.1 even makes them in the true hill style and is personal friends with the Shulz family and has quite a following,that think his bows are the Best too,but what is the Best anyway?LOL

Pearl,dont worry man,your notwasting my internet time,in the slightest.I am sometimes entertained at how thin skinned some can be.You made a statement,i thought to be bold on a public forum and i stated my dissagreement.Not that big a deal guy,Get over it.Scheesh!!!

Thats a wondeful thing Ron. I wished I would have know you had one of David's bows in Elm Hall. I would have aasked to snoop around!

More eyecandy! More eyecandy!

Especially, more pictures of the SAGE, please.

To all who are shooting the non glass longbow. Can you give me your wood arrow specs in regards to your bow poundage. I don't have a Miller longbow but I have a Schulz all bamboo longbow. Mahalo, George

Thanks Ron. What poundage are you shooting with that SAGE?

Surely there are guys who can show more closeup photos of David Miller's fine work. More eyecandy!

Ron's bow looks to be a Hawk. The Sage has a rounded belly.

Sage

Sage

same Sage new grip LtoR. HH Redman, Miller Old Tom, Miller Sage. Maybe you can see the flatter profile on the belly of the Old Tom, and the rounder profile, on the Sage ?

"Ron's bow looks to be a Hawk. The Sage has a rounded belly."

David called it "The Tonkin" and he said it is a one of a kind. You'll have to ask him what he means by that. I know it's concave/convex and the back lamination is tempered tonkin cane.

That is one of a kind. Really beautiful.

Wow! Thanks guys and good shootin with those beauties.

Actualy Ron LaClairs Hawk is not one of a kind I have a Hawk with CC/CV limbs with tonkin bamboo used on the belly,also its the very first one David Built. I guess you could call it a prototype. Its 49lbs at 26" and 66" in length and was built in 2011, It has Tonkin bamboo on the belly side of the bow and is signed "Tonkin Special" on the bottom limb. These are the only two Tonkin Specials that David made as far as I know. I also have another Hawk David made for me without Tonkin with is just a little smoother on the draw at the same poundage. Both are excellent bows. Ron Roehrick.

Sexy bows.

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