I was reading on another forum that the Savage Deathmaster was influenced by the Howatt Hunter. There might be some indirect influence, but I believe the two bows to be very different. The Deathmaster was shorter than the Hunter and had a much shorter riser design and longer limbs with a larger recurve section near the end of the limbs. When Paul Schafer began to build the Silvertip, he used a riser much like a shortened Gamemaster Jet, according to a letter Bob Savage wrote. Bob did say Jack Howard had an influence on the Deathmaster design and the Gamemaster has a riser similar in looks to a Howatt Hunter. Here is a pic of the two risers, a 95" hunter and an 83' Deathmaster. Even the limb construction and tip shape/thickness differ. The limbs on the Hunter are flexible while those on the Deathmaster are very rigid. Anyone have comments? I'd especially like to hear from Howattman or Larry Hatfield.

Joe

Here's another pic. The Deathmaster is on the left in both pics.

Joe

In the last pic, the Deathmaster looks longer than the Hunter but is actually shorter. It is 60" while the Hunter is 62".

Joe

As a Damon Howatt Hunter Lover :)....I don't know but for my $$$ it well could be a case of "influence" but no direct heritage . A lot of cars have bumpers, hoods, trunks, roofs etc etc etc.......Its how they are used in combinations and with "style" anfd function. Larry & Howattman would have more of an informed answer for sure. Jim

I didn't think Schaffer had anything to do with the Savage DeathMaster rec. I know Rocky Miller made them for awhile under tuteledge of Bob Savage. The DM I owned looked more like a Howatt Mamba to me than a Hunter. Also if I am not mistaken and Mr. Howatt could clarify this, is that he made risers and limbs for Paul Schaffer when Schaffer was having financial difficulties.

I owned a Silver Ghost at one time and these bows everybody is under the impression that Schaffer made them etc.etc. He just put a finish on them along with his caligraphy while Howatt actually made them for him to finish. I believe he might have made a bunch of the Silver tips too that Shcaffer finished up and sold. I may be way off base on this one. Anyways fine bows all around. keepem sharp

I dont believe Larry Hatfield or the good folks at Martin would take offence at all. The Hunter is one of the finest one piece recurves you can get and it's been around long enough to put out some "influence". I would say that pretty much everything has been tried in making trad bows and everything is a copy and modification of some type.

Don't you think that between Martin archery and Bear archery and Pearson archery that they influenced all bows to some degree. I got a reverse handled long bow with some deflex made in the 50's. Materials have changed and got better but I don't think anyone lately has reinvented the wheel.

I don't think it's possible to set the standard for 44+ years (as the Howatt Hunter has) and NOT influence other designs. But that's the extend of the Savage Deathmaster's connection to the HH.....influenced, but not a copy.

Willie,

Small but important detail: Martin Archery had no involvement in the design of the Hunter. They bought the design when they bought Howatt Archery.

Paul Shafer acknowledged the influence of the Deathmaster on his one piece design, but unless my memory fails me, which is very possible, Bob Savage got the inspiration for his bow from Shakespeare- the Necedah, I believe, but can't be certain of the model. Grant

Well the Martin name is bandied about because a generation of bowhunters has grown up hearing them called Martin. Damon Howatt Archery made the Hunter at the same plant, I understand, as they have all of their bows....Yakima, Wa. Hardly anyone knows about Damon Howatt the man since he was killed in an auto accident in the late 1950's. His legacy lives on however and the Howatt Hunter doesn't take a back seat in shootability and performance to any bow made, and that includes high price customs.

I owned a Bob Savage Deathmaster, back in the 1980's. I remember the bow was smooth as a Dutch baby's behind and shot like a rocket.

From what I have seen alot of the new bowyers were influenced by other bowyers. I have seen many that were close to the Pronghorn design, many that had to be inspired by the Shrew design etc. etc. and many that dont resemble anything...PR

All of my bows have Howatt influence. Not in looks but in overall design. Its hard to beat Howatt as the concept is right.

The howatt hunters is the most copied riser design out there.

Here is one of two OLD brochures on the Deathmaster. They mention influences. It was interesting that they were only made in heavy draw weights. George is correct on the way they shoot. They are super smooth and fast! I have not seen one for sale the past year but they are out there. I accidentally trashed an electronic copy of a letter Bob Savage sent to me, but I can find the letter and rescan. Savage taught Paul Schafer to build bows and the letter explains this. Some believe the Deathmaster to be a coy of the Shakespeare Necedah, but I see differences in riser and limbs. George might be able to shed light on the speed of the Necedah compared to the Deathmaster. I don't think the Necedah is even close in speed or they wouldn't be going for under a $100 on ebay!

Joe

Grant... the Necedah and Deathmaster do look simialar, so the Necedah design might well be an early influence on the Deathmaster design.

Joe

I screwed up my post by stating Mr. Howatt when in I think it was Larry Hatfield who was making the Schaffer risers etc. for Paul Schaffer. I don't know it has been so long but when I owned my Silver Ghost I could have sworn Mr. Hatfield emailed about the history of the bows.

As for the DeathMaster rec. mine was made by Rocky Miller. Purple heart riser, black glass, and maple limbs. Was even signed by him. I also had at one time the above brochure but am sure it was thrown out long ago. I think it was before I bought the Classic t/d I own by Rocky but might have been afterwards. Kept the Classic but not the DM. SO many bows and just can't remember exactly about it other than the look of it. Pretty cool information though. keepem sharp

Longbow1... Bob said Rocky Miller was the only one who made an exact copy of his Deathmaster. I would consider a 56" Rocky Miller TD with Deathmaster-performing limbs or a 56" Bear TD with Deathmaster limbs made to fit it the ultiamate bow!

Joe

The tiller on the Howatt Hunter is wayyy out there in contrast to the Deathmaster. The top limb is almost hinged just a few inches from the end of the fadeout. Bad pic? No similarities as far as I can tell. Sorry, no offense intended to the Howatt Fans. Look for yourself. Brace too high?

Steve

Steve:

The tiller is within what is acceptable but you are correct that the brace is very high, right around 8 and 3/4". Lower brace heights shot terrible. Last week, I opened my nocks up and the bow began to shoot great, so I left the brace height alone. I think I'll be able to lower it to around or just under 8.5". The Deathmaster shoots like a dream at about any reasonable brace height. At 54#, it shoots arrows from 425gr through 550gr without a problem. Now, the Hunter is doing the same. Comparing the two bows, both 54#@ 28", the Deathmaster has no noticeable stacking or vibration. The Hunter has a tiny amount of vibration. Before I adjusted the nocks, it was terrible. Shooting into foam, the Deathmaster sinks an arrow about 1" deeper than the Hunter, so it is faster. The shorter brace helps here. Both bows are very fast. Both bows are quiet but the Deathmaster is slightly quieter. The Deathmaster has a larger grip but better shaped. The shape is like some of the 70s Bear bows I've shot. Both bows hit where I look. The Hunter is nicer looking but heavier by 12- 13oz. The Deathmaster, at 1# 7oz and 60", is one of the lightest recurves out there. I like them both but prefer the Deathmaster due to the overall performance.

Joe

I have a Savage Deathmaster made by Rocky Miller back in the early '80s, in Bozeman. I have not been able to shoot it for some years now because when I draw it back, the string comes off the tip of the limb (slips off to one side). The limb does not draw back straight, becasue I think the inner structure is cracked, although the glass lam is not. I like this bow, and am wondering if anyone knows if this can be repaired and the bow made useable again? Thanks for your help...

I enjoy reading the history of these Howatt bows and I think all bows were an altered copy of another bow to some extent. I have one tidbit I will throw in there on the Howatt Hunter. I have one in my shop now that is being fitted with new bamboo limbs and the limb profile is exactly the same as the Mamba, with the difference in the length being between the fades.

Awesome stuff

It would be my uneducated guess that the design of the laminations in the limbs in the Hunter is what makes the bow perform different than any other bow, regardless of looks. I believe the design was tweeked over the years, not just the wood used in the riser, but the limb lamination design.

Larry Hatfield is the guy that knows more about this than anyone, maybe he'll reply with the facts!

Trapper- It seems you have a twisted limb, and yes, you can twist it back. Do a search for repair limb twist for the methods used. Mild applications of heat are often advised, but I'd just string the bow and twist the limb in the opposite direction and hold. Do this repeatedly until the twist comes out. Anyway, that's what I did to my Howatt Hunter. By the way, The Hunter had no influence on Deathmaster construction. Bob Savage told me so. He said he didn't like Howatts, lol!

Joe

As I have said before to you Frisky, the Deathmaster has an outstanding reputation around Montana for obvious reasons. I have been trying to find one for years. Found one but the guy wouldn't part with it for less than my .25-06 Remington 700. I hardly ever shoot guns anymore, but I thought that was ridiculous, even for a Deathmaster. That gun new goes for about $1,300 around here.

So, there are guys out here who would love a Deathmaster but at a reasonable price. Nice bows.

And I get to see Bob every January at the Traditional Bowhunters of Montana in January. Nice guy. You can see a 28-minute video that features early bowyers in Montana and includes a lot of Bob at http://mtba.org/

I watched that video and mentioned it to Bob last spring. You should be able to find a Deathmaster for cheap where you live. They are out there. Even if I get to where I can't draw mine back, I won't get rid of it, as I'd be giving up the bow of bows. It's not like a cheap old Widow or Border you know.

Joe

Frisky, thanks for the info. That's very encouraging so I'll do some searching and give it a try. It was a sweet shooter and I hope it works. Back when I was greener than grass, I think I screwed it up by trying to string it up the old boy scout between-the-legs method. Grrr...

Just be careful. Twist the bad limb in the opposite direction of the way it twisted out of shape. Hold and release. Do it over and over, massaging the twist out. Some apply light heat, but I don't.

Joe

Yes, Savage also said another "influencer" was the Necedah and that consults with Ernie Root were part of the DM's evolution. And I'd like to clarify a few things...yah right.

Damon Howatt was killed in a car accident in '65, but had sold Howatt Archery in '61, about the same time as today's iteration Howatt Hunter came to be, and when Larry Hatfield was just joining the company.

There was an earlier Howatt Hunter 66", not to be confused with the Mamba Hunter in the same timeframe. But the bow existed even earlier as the 62" Monterrey meant as a Lady's target and field bow, but as men kept buying them to hunt with, Howatt got wise. You can find the occasional early Hunter with white glass, but around 1960 (date uncertain as this preceded Larry Hatfield) Howatt kept the Monterrey with white glass, and the same bow with black glass as the Hunter.

I believe the Hunter and Mamba, now that the Ventura is no longer built are the longest running production bows there are, since they are now in the 6th decade (not 4th) of production. Ok the Grizzly and Kodiak names are older, but those bows went through MANY changes. Not the Howatts. Larry will tell you the Hunter has had some design tweaks along the way, yet the bow is essentially the same today as it was 60 years ago.

But any direct influence Damon Howatt had on Bob Savage would have had to come from the grave.

Who copied whom in the stickbow world will never be known, and we probably can't even agree on what constitutes a copy. Looks? Design? Both?

"Influenced"? By the later 50's Bob Lee was selling this Bow design as the Red Wing Hunter, and as for "influence" by 60-61 EVERYBODY was building their version...ok it took Bear a couple years longer (the 58" Griz). Howatt's Mamba, Ernie Root had his Warrior, later to become the Necedah, there was the Pearson Hunter, Browning Nomad and Safari and every other smaller shop had theirs (York, Cravotta, American, Indian etc. etc.)

I can keep going, but enough for now save an admonition to Joe:

Frisky, your posts can be fun. I enjoy them. But you must remember that a LOT of newbies read these posts. Some don't know when you are kidding and full of horse patoot and when not.

I maintain and Joe's refusal to come out of the woods for some bow to bow tests lends support to this:

Almost ALL a bow's performance, given similar profile REGARDLESS OF BRAND OR MARKETING HYPE, can be attributed to string, rest position and brace. Set up as alike as possible and there is no difference in performance worth arguing about.

Harry Drake and Bob Savage built/designed Frisky's Hunter-Flite and the Deathmaster. The Howatt Hunter is rightly the "Classic's classic" of production bows. So Joe does have three of the best ever for the simple reason that these fellows new ALL the tweaks and built them in. But there were no secrets, no magic formula. Any bow, with the same tweaks built or so modified, will match performance with any other. That has little to do with owner pride, personal "feel" or fit, so we are free to like what we like.

But any mine is better thoughts? Erase that.

Rick

I will now present my argument against what Yorktown has written. First off, Yorktown has written the books on recurve bows. He knows his stuff, and his observations, not just opinions, carry a lot of weight. In his vast experience with controlled testing, he has determined that there isn't a hill of beans worth of difference between well-designed vintage recurves. Put them through a chronograph, side by side and with the same string, and they perform about the same. However, I believe this to be a bunch of DOGGY DOO! Why do I assert this blasphemy? Well, being a lefty, Yorktown has not found a Deathmaster to test. I don't think he has ever found a Drake Hunter-Flite either. So, he can't prove that my bows aren't the greatest of the great. He does't know! Yes, folks, he knows a lot but, unlike me, does't know it all. Until he tests the two greats I've mentioned, his life's work is incomplete. Period. Also, his observations fly in the face of Black Swan bows. They claim to have a model that shoots 225fps at 30" draw and 60# pull and 9 grains per pound of pull. Another model that does 210fps. Of course, on their homepage, they claim to have a model that does 300fps! That hurts credibility. However, Black Swans, Borders and Deathmasters are probably in a league of their own. Except the Black Swans and Borders rely on carbon fiber to get to the BOW of BOWS performance.

joe

Methingst I'll tease him some more.

A. Drakes yes. Owners wouldn't let me put a better string on than a thin dacron on one of them so they were on the slow side.

B. Joe lives in Frostbite Falls Minnesota where brain freeze can be permanent.

C. He doesn't own a chronograph.

D. Related to B, he is easily swayed by marketing spin using carefully worded but faulty statistics. For example a #60 bow drawn 30" is no longer a 60# bow, so the arrow is no longer 9gpp.

I think I too could get 225fps, or close. Mechanical release alone would give me 10fps over fingers, thinnest possible string, lowest possible brace, 2 extra inches of draw, no nock set ring or center serving, maximized aerodynamic arrow...yah I could.

E. He has weak excuses as to why he can't seem to make it to any area shoots and so accept my any-bow test challenge.

F. And I spell better too.

Wallers, you have been warned. (grin)

Rick

Also, for such a great speller, you better learn the difference between new and knew!

My two typos were caused by this disgusting spell-check thing I don't know how to turn off. "Doesn't" was changed to "does't" twice. That's not spelling error. That's a faulty spell-check!

Very soon, my new products will take over the archery industry as I close on on the title "The 2nd Coming of Fred Bear." At that time, I'll be able to afford a chronograph and do a video test of my bows for all the world to see.

Joe

Crookedstix, why don't you enter this conversation to tell us more about your crappy bows?

Joe

I read Rick's post on how Howatt Hunters had remained unchanged and thought I would post a picture of what is close to the first year of production of the Howatt Hunter ("...one year either side of 1960..." according to Mr. Hatfield)beside a 1992 Hunter.

I have to agree with Rick that the resemblance, especially in terms of limb design and angle off the riser, is really and truly remarkable-they have not changed.

Feeling like a snake in a room full of rocking chairs (given the highly charged atmosphere between the combatants...errrr debaters ) I humbly submit this picture as a point of interest only.

Just to add fuel to the fire, Jack Howard put his claim in writing about his bow being the fastest bow made. I'm not making that claim, Jack did. His bows did not use low stretch materials and, in fact, did not even use B-50. Based on my experience I'm fairly sure that his bows, the ways they were set up by Jack, will hold their own against any other bow made even with the stretchy string. If I am correct in that, putting a Rick Barbee performance string on them would put a Deathmaster or Hunter-Flite to shame.

Seriously, the argument about what bow is faster is amusing. Yorktown has it right - among the top bows made there is not a significance difference in performance. There may be in smoothness of draw, there may be in how the grip feels, but they all spit out an arrow at about the same velocity if set up in a similar fashion.

Fiberglass is fiberglass.

All I can say is I spoke with Bob Savage, last spring, and Bob spent many a day flinging arrows with Jack Howard. In our conversation, Bob said, and I quote, "I never did shoot the fastest bow in the world, shooting one of his bows." That sums it up quite well!

Joe

Speed, schmeed-- they're all fast enough. I keep telling you, Frisky-- it's looks that count! Now take a good look at that bow of PDiddly's a few posts back; the one on the right. That's what a real bow looks like!

You'd do well to unload all three of yours on some newbie, and start looking for something classy like a '62 Howatt Hunter, or maybe a '65 Pearson Mustang... or you could just throw yourself at Fred's mercy and beg him for one of his. You'd feel better about yourself afterwards...and come to think of it, I've got a Wilson White that would be a good starter for the new you. I'll give you a good deal on it...

Wilson White? You mean that 60# club that can't cast an arrow over 140 yards?

Joe

I recently bought a used Damon Howatt hunter recurve bow.It looks newer to me , but the limb tips do not look reinforced for fast flight string. Does anyone know what year it is ? HH o897 55# @28" amo 62".

Takes a photo to be sure, but the markings say 1970, 80, 90, 2000, or even 2010. (Zero first digit) Howatts had rosewood tip overlays until 1995 switching to black phenolic supposedly for Fflight.

Regardless of decade, you have what could be called the Classic's classic vintage bow.

Just an FYI, but NO FF on old bows is mostly an internet myth, so long as the loops are padded to get them sufficiently thick.

R.

My 1961 Howatt Hunter has a very thin rosewood overlay on the belly side, none on the back. The '73 Hunter has overlays on both sides, but I'm not sure of what kind of wood. They don't appear to be rosewood, though.

In some old dusty abandoned shop somewhere, there must be the original forms used to build the vaunted Deathmaster. If these bows were as great as Frisky claims, someone would have probably sought out the magic forms and cranked out a few more copies. Same with the Hunterflites.

Fact is, there are probably lots of bows made today that would match or out perform the Deathmaster. And that's why no one is still building it.

Backcountry: I'll tell you one thing- The Howatt Hunter is inferior to both the Deathmaster and the Hunter Flight. Nobody in the history of the world has ever proven me wrong on this or any other issue.

Joe

Talking about the Howatt Hunter reminds me of Crookedstix and his beloved Monterey. He told me that Monterey could smoke my Deathmaster. Said it was the greatest bow ever made, and he should know as he'd just completed testing about 200 of them. He said he felt sorry for me and my clunky Deathmaster and Drake. The next thing you know, I get an email. The limb tip snapped off the Monterey! Poor Crookedstix stood there with big ol' crocodile tears dripping off his face and landing on his boots! HAHAHA!!!! I hope he learned his lesson.

Joe

I'd bet Frisky's mom would offer a dissenting opinion on that last part!

Crookedstix is pretty handy and can probably fix the Monterrey with some 420, bailing wire (do they still make that?) and a sliver off an old broken bamboo flyrod.

That tip probably wouldn't have snapped off if he didn't have a gorilla-like 35" draw length.

I'm not sure but it seems to me the hunters reached their final design in about 1962, with a few minor changes in recent years for ff.

Frisky, Frisky, Frisky...

Yes, it's true that the tip snapped on that '62 Monterey; but you must remember that it faced hazards unknown to your Deathmaster-- that is to say, I actually shot real arrows with it, and on a regular basis. As long as you limit yourself to merely shooting the breeze with it, your Deathmaster will remain unbeatable.

Here is the poor old Monterey (moment of silence, please)... I fully expect that Larry will replace or repair it for me; surely it must still be under warranty.

Failing that, I will send it to that fine repair shop operated by your nemesis in Hudson, Wisconsin. I expect that Yorktown could shorten it down to a 60-incher for me and it would still outshoot that wallhanger of yours.

Before you cut it down I bet that could be fixed. Glue it up and put slightly larger tip overlays on it. It could be that the area between the nocks was just too thin.

Guess you were using FastFlight, huh?

No, it's too late; Frisky's cruel mockery has killed my love of archery. I'll mail the Monty to anyone who promises to fix it up and take it to Minnesota on a killing spree, LOL. He lives in Austin...

No, BC; I was actually using Dacron, and I had even added extra backing (my homemade silk & superglue micarta). It just wanted to break, I think.

BRUHAHA! So, that's the bow that Ol' Crook was gonna use to outshoot my Deathmaster? HAHAHA!!!! If only you folks could have read all the glowing praise on this pile of junk I had to read until the big SNAP! If I owned it, I'd throw it in the garbage can! I suppose the Mojo will be the next clunker to go! Oh, here's a real bow for you.

Joe

Same old Frisky-- your comments remain off the wall, while your bows remain on it!

You've hijacked your own thread with these baseless attacks, but let's get back to that Deathmaster-- why don't you trade it to me for one you can shoot? I just picked up a nice 56" Polar last week; 35# draw, zebrawood I-beam, and just as cute as a button-- it would be perfect for you. Even-up trade...whattaya say?

CrookdStix, I hope you know I tossed you a softball there about the FastFlight. I just wanted the dacron string advocates to see that it's not always low-stretch strings that are responsible for tip damage to vintage bows.

Still a shame that it broke, but I agree with Phil--it can probably be fixed.

It wouldn't have to be fixed if had been made properly in the first place.

Joe

Perhaps Mr. Hatfield will jump in and clarify, but its my understanding that the current Hunter design has been unchanged since about 1965(?), and Jack Howard's Gamemaster Jet (which looks quite similar to the DH Hunter), first appeared in 1968. Not sure about that Savage Death Master of Frisky's and when it first appeared on the market, but it sure is ugly compared to my Gamemaster Jet and the DH Hunter's I have owned. :)

Regarding the pending Deathmaster-Polar swap... the length is perfect but the 35# draw weight might be a tad heavy for Frisky. But then, as a wall hanger like the rest of his bows, that wouldn't matter anyway.

Frisky, I'll buy that Deathmaster off you; I just put a metal roof on my barn and as my next project is to replace the roof on my house, I figure that bow of yours would come in handy to scrape off the old shingles with. I don't want to scratch up my Grandfather's old hoe on those roofing nails! Does $25.00 sound fair, to my door shipping included? :)

Shafted, I don't think it's quite fair to call Frisky's Deathmaster "ugly". I think with a little refinishing, couple of coats of wax, and a new string... THEN you could call it "ugly." In its current condition, it falls somewhere short of the category.

What would be cool is to send the Deathmaster on a pass-around. Then we could get the bow into some objective, competent hands for testing and comparison with our (my) Howatts and Wings. After you snag it Kerry, put me high on the list!

Good point Crookedstix! Frisky, please refurbish that bow before sending it to me. I don't want the neighbors to see me up on my roof removing shingles with that bow in its current condition.

Frisky, Frisky, Frisky...Some things never change.

You have a nice bow with pretty aqua glass, maybe turquoise, and you shoot a couple of arrows through it at 15 feet and claim it's the Holy Grail.

Time to set the record straight. A regular factory Howatt will shoot with your bow. A Dyna-Stressed Groves will. There are some others that may even perform better.

Of course Bob wouldn't think much of Jack's bows because he was a competitor. But Jack thought a lot of his bows and put it in print. I have an original Gamemaster that I believe performs even better than the Jet. Only way to tell is to put them in a machine and test them.

I bought into that world's fastest bow BS as a teenager, but then I got wind of the mighty Deathmaster through the words of none other than the great Steve Gorr himself! I knew a 66" bow was a pile of junk for hunting, and I began my quest for the Bow of Bows. Having found it, I will never relinquish it, unless I can find the same one in a lower poundage than the 54#er I have now. Feast your eyes upon recurve bow perfection!

The brochure posted above indicates the lowest poundage Deathmasters came in was 55#. Frisky's bow must be losing some oomph...if it ever had any.

It came in 1 pound underweight. That makes it a rare and even more desirable specimen!

Joe

Factory second.

Yeah, I was kind of thinking that, too! Probably could buy a whole barrel of 'em for $20.

I wouldn't give $20 for a barrel.

I would for the barrel, if I didn't have to take a bow.

Hey Kerry...what a shame your Monterey bought it...first I heard of it. Very nice bow. My sincere condolences...sniff!

Take solace in the fact that fine Howatt met its demise with you using it for the purpose it was designed for, which was shoot arrows.

This is in sharp contrast to your usual detractor, "The Mighty Legend of the North", whose two "bows" (I use the word loosely) hang on the wall while he struts, puffs and pontificates, making mighty claims yet to be proven...shooting not arrows, but hot air.

Pay no attention to his barbed words...

Come to think of it, the only picture I ever saw of the gaudy "Turqoise Toothpick" being used in the manner intended was in your capable hands when you graced him with your presence. Should have given him a few pointers.

So the Holy Snail and Slow as Death Master went back on the wall upon your departure and have remained there since.

Proof of that is the much touted and long promised Great Minnesota Flight Test never got off the ground.

All sizzle...no steak!

I guess all I can say is a repeat of the words of Bob Savage: "I never did shoot the fastest bow in the world, shooting one of his bows."

OR Bob's words on Howatts: Hey Bob, did the Howatt Hunter influence your design?

Bob: No.

Me: Really? No influence?

Bob: I don't like 'em. I shot a lot of 'em and didn't like any of 'em.

HAHAHA!!!

Joe

That really wasn't very nice of Bob to trash Howards and Howatts, but that's the way it is!

Joe

As Yorktown mentioned previously.... Red Wing Hunter. Look at the two bows. The influence is obvious. That Deathmaster looks very similar to a Red Wing Hunter, just a bit longer. Limb design, grip profile.... HMmmmm....... and Bob Lee told me he introduced the Red Wing Hunter to the public (not counting earlier prototypes) in 1957. What year was the Deathmaster first offered? Let's give credit where it is due!

I spoke with Bob regarding the Red Wing Hunter. I asked him what he thought of the bow. Hie reply- "Slow." He said he shot the neighbor's bow and it was a slow, clunky bow. No Red Wing Hunter influence at all in Bob's bow. If you fellas had my bows, you'd realize how junky the rest of the bows out there are and immediately declare me to be the Living Legend that I am.

Joe

People think the Red Wing Hunter is fast because they've never shot a smoking fast bow.

Joe

Sounds to me like Bob thought every now but his was slow. I understand loving your child but we all know that there are many other excellent performing bows.

Maybe, just maybe all others are slow compared to his!

Joe

Since the Deathmaster is no longer being made, in what other bows do the supposed miraculous qualities live on? That is, for what other bows did it serve as an influence?

I wonder if the forms still exist at the Jeffrey shop...probably not.

Maybe, just maybe...... Bob Savage and Frisky are just a wee bit subjective when the topic comes to other bows? :)

When I told Bob it's too bad the Deathmaster design is no more, he became a little upset and let me know the design lives on in the one piece Silvertip.

Joe

That's unfortunate. The Howatt Hunter has been the basis for who knows how many custom recurves.

It's overrated. First off, 62" is not exactly a great length for a real hunter. It will work. I use mine while hiding behind brush blinds, but a shorter bow is better. Secondly, it's not the smoothest, quietest or fastest bow out there. That accolade belongs to the Deathmaster!

Joe

The Deathmaster has not been as oft-copied as the Hunter for a reason. That being, the Hunter is better. Now I'm not saying the Deathmaster isn't a decent enough bow, but it seems it just never caught on because it's nothing special.

I'm surprised Owen Jeffrey bothered to scratch out a few Deathmasters for cranky old Bob Savage when his own limb design was so successful. After all, Jeffrey produced the Patriot recurve for Dan Quillian. Now THAT is one fast bow!

The Deathmaster was made by a select few people good enough to do the job right. The Howatt staff wasn't up to snuff, so they weren't asked. That's my take on things.

Joe

Well, Frisky Joe, that's one way to look at it!

Since Jeffrey Archery is still making bows, I wonder why they aren't still making a few Deathmasters? Because nobody wants them? Or why, as Larry Hatfield has stated repeatedly, that Howatt bows consistently beat other comparable bows in flight shooting competition...including Deathmaster or its latter day offshoot, Silvertip?

That would be an interesting, revealing comparison.

Or why George S., who claims Deathmasters were fast and "smooth as a Dutch baby's backside, would have let such a remarkable bow slip through his hands?

And while we're pondering, I'm wondering just how smooth a Dutch baby's backside is, and why so much smoother than, say, a Scandanavian baby's? And how George knows?

So when can we expect to see some chronograph data so we can proclaim this as the best bow ever?

Dear Frisky its just your old buddy form Ohio with some friendly advice. Don't be talking bad about them folks at Howatt. That Mr Hatfield may be a little long in the tooth and out of the country a lot. But he has spent a lifetime in the school of hard knocks and may not be above stopping by Minnesota in the dead of winter dressed in jeans and a tee shirt and riding a rank horse, to correct any bad manners he is a scrapper. I don't want to see you going to that nice Mayo clinic to have them surgeons remove a bow from your body parts. Maybe that's how them limbs got that strange color! Well just my 2 cents but as the Chinese say don't pull on the tail of a tiger unless you have a plan to deal with its jaws. Your Bud Steve

George got rid of the Deathmaster due to high poundage. These bows weren't made for just any wimp!

Ollie- The Deathmaster proclamation has already been made and verified. No need for further testing.

Joe

woodshaft- I'm not picking on Howatts other than to say they are inferior to the Bow of Bows.

Joe

FWIW- I spoke to a guy a few years ago who claims to have the original form for the Savage Deathmaster. I never saw it but he insisted it was true.

I have never seen any data regarding the performance of a Deathmaster under controlled shooting conditions and matched against other bows that are considered to be fast. All I have heard are subjective comments from people that have shot them. Based on what I have heard, they are very good and very fast bows.

If Steve Gorr put Frisky onto them, that gives some credence to Frisky's bragging.

But Frisky has probably single-handedly increased their market value, whether they're anything special or not.

Notice this thread's been going on, what, about 6 years? It's taken that long to build up some demand so he can sell that ugly old bow!

From: mnxs54: "FWIW- I spoke to a guy a few years ago who claims to have the original form for the Savage Deathmaster. I never saw it but he insisted it was true."

Did he say what he planned to do with it? Is he going to make bows, donate it to a museum, or just use it for firewood?

It would be good to put a few more of Savage's bows on the street to flood the market. Wouldn't take many! Then it would be less likely that some sucker would get fleeced paying too much for Frisky's "Slow as Death-Master."

ttt...8^)

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