Guess I'm on my "soap box" these days (ask Elk ;O)) But how many else here are truly sickened by the proliferation of high fence "hunting" and baiting in the bowhunting crowd? Even traditional bowhunters are becoming more and more accepting of these practices!

I can't believe it! I'm not that old, but it seems like very few (and getting fewer) bowhunters want to work for anything anymore.

If my only options were to hunt behind a high fence or over a pile of corn, then I guess I'd just go play golf instead. At least traditions are still respected in that sport.

I thank God and pray as often as I can for the few public bowhunting areas here in Texas that do not allow baiting and are populated with truly wild animals. I'd rather take 1 doe from an area like that than a pile of "trophy" bucks from behind a fence or under a feeder.

Anyone else feel the same way?

John.

Hey John....Haven't seen you post in awhile... Just stop by to swat the bee hive?? I think that anyone who buys into this obvious "bait job" should be dragged behind a high fence and then shot......All my best!!

Can I get an Amen!! My Buddy (aka Tradstyk) and I are just about sick of it too. Even the more popular huntin shows are doing it. Bowhuntr magazine tv, try to hide the pile behind a tree out of camera view but you can still see it. As far as high fences don't even call it hunting. Strickland outdoor adventures was pretty much hunting a petting zoo over a bait pile in texas with store bought exotics, buffalo or anything else you wanted to buy and shoot. What a big disgrace to any sport. I hear ya man, preach it!!!

I'm with ya. Thankful that Ky has lot's of public land where baiting is not allowed...just my 2 cents, before this thread gets slammed.

Stan, I am usually on the AT Fita forum during the target season, but I like to jump on here once my neck starts to swell ;o)

Guess I 'swatted the bee hive' on the arrow weight thread, but some guys don't know how to react to a little ribbing. I wouldn't tease folks if I hadn't been there, done that myself...

Baiting is part of "hunting" in Texas. Has been as long as I've hunted deer. We had 5 gallon buckets of corn on our 42 acres in E. Texas when I was a kid. However, my first bow kill was a small buck I rattled in w/o any bait in sight. After that, I realized that scouting the right location and putting in the work was what hunting meant to me.

I shot one more deer 10 years later over a feeder, and I swore it would be my last. I had absolutely no pride in that hunt.

Now that I'm back in Texas, it seems that things are 10 times worse. Every small lease or landowner thinks they have to feed more corn than their neighbor, or worse - build a high fence - in order to keep "their" deer on their property.

I hope what's happened here in Texas does not repeat itself in other states.

I think this phenomena is related to private property and the lack of public land. If we had more public land, private property owners couldn't get much money (if any) for leasing their land, and too few would pay huge amounts of money for high fence hunts for it to be a profitable business.

When I was out West and in the Midwest, there was abundant public lands, so the leasing, high fence and baiting were not an issue. Baiting certainly would have been if it had been allowed by the state or on the public lands, but thank God it wasn't.

John.

Here in va baiting is illigal private land or public which i like..... as far as high fenced areas i personally would never hunt in but if someone else wants to spend $10,000 to kill a pet deer be my guest..

I gotta' tell this since this has to do with "high fencing". The Texas guys will appreciate this,since I was raised there,I appreciate it too. I was talking to a good friend of mine on Tuesday. He has been one of my mentors in the sportinggoods business and we have been friendsfor years. Due to the fact that he represents some very high end lines he has lots of people approach him about diffrent things. Some people contacted him 2 weeks ago and wanted to know if he was intersted in representing a hunting opration thay had in South Texas. He told them that he may be,however,he would not be interested until he had the opportunity to see the set up first hand. He amde the trip to the ranch and after the introductions and small talk the ranch manager took him on a tour of the ranch. After looking the operation over my friend asked what the hunting conditions ere like. He was informed that the hunters would be housed in the ranch lodge. Each morning they would be "guided" to a particular stand where they would be dropped off. The shooting opportunities would have been discussed the evening before and the hunters would only be allowed to kill a deer within the price range that they had discussed as they came into the feeders. The price for the deer was based on the number of points of course. Having been raised in Paint Rock,Texas and hunting since the age of 6, he informed them that to him,this wasn't deer hunting,it was shooting livestock and he didn't care to have his name associated with an operation of that type.

One of my favorite quotes about high fences came from another site where the thread was about poaching behind high fences. Someone made the clever comment that there were well established penalties for "killing livestock" already in place.

I laughed about that one for days. Couldn't have said it better myself. Might as well go shoot a calf. They probably taste better...

John.

[limbwalker - "think this phenomena is related to private property and the lack of public land. If we had more public land, private property owners couldn't get much money (if any) for leasing their land, and too few would pay huge amounts of money for high fence hunts for it to be a profitable business."]

That about says it, and because of it, you can't blame the little guys for doing whatever they can to get, and keep deer, and other wildlife on their properties.

I wish it were different here in Texas, but it isn't, and I'm not going point fingers.

I hunt both ways (baited & non baited), but I do what the situation dictates at the time, or place. I do not hunt high fence areas, but I have nothing against someone else doing it.

By the way - wanna borrow my golf clubs? I'm to busy filling feeders to play golf. 8^P

couldn't agree with you more.i guess whatever it takes,to be able to shoot a deer.to me the journey(how you get there)is just as important as reaching the final destination.another aspect of baiting is the guy who is hunting on neighboring property or so who has done their scouting and put in their time.then all a sudden neighbors start dumping out truckloads of food for the deer,alters the deers patterns for the guys who aren't baiting.plus i feel it gives the sport a black eye when viewed ( looked at in a negative light) by the non-hunting public who may have a big part in deciding the future of hunting.

Same as planting farm raised animals in the field right before a hunt. I saw an awful video, that happened to be shot in Texas. Showed a couple guys and a couple dogs roll out in a truck with a Black panther in a cage in the bed of the truck. The hunter and the dogs stood back as the "Guide" opened the cage to let the "Wild black panther" out. But the cat exitted the cage and hid beneath the truck. They tried like the dickens to get that cat to run, but it didn't budge. The "hunter" was visually disgusted by the ordeal and refused to shoot it underneath the truck. The "Guide" finally busted out a handgun and shot the cat right underneath the truck. Turned out this place was buying peoples unwanted exotic big cats (former pets) and selling them off as a "Big Cat Hunting opportunity". Weak sauce in my opinion, and I don't much agree with any african game planted on any ranch anywhere to be offered for hunting outside of africa. Mo.

Gundy, Leasing is a tough issue. Like Rick above, I can't fault a guy for trying to make some money from their property. If it helps a landowner keep that land in wildlife habitat instead of something else, then I'm all for it.

It's not the landowner's fault that so many folks are willing to turn the tradition of hunting into a commercial venture.

Like I said, I just thank God for the little public land we do have, and I consider a deer taken off public land with traditional archery tackle to be one of the greatest hunting accomplisments a person can have. To me, anything less than that is dumbing down the tradition and history of bowhunting.

I finally caved in this year, and for the first time in my life I have something other than a TV antenna. I have to admit that some of the hunting shows are not all bad. But so many of them are awful. But a common theme among all of them is hunting private land in controlled situations, usually over bait.

Just once I'd love to see a show that is nothing but 100% fair chase hunting on public land. Doubt I'd ever see it, but I'd be their #1 fan if I did, because for so many guys, that's their only option.

John.

John, I can't understand where all the money comes from to afford the sky high leases, trophy fees, travel, etc.etc.etc that has flooded into hunting, not to mention fishing. Like the housing bust I suspect the economy is going to fix a bunch of this junk. I still look for persimmons and later white oaks but it's 90 degress here this weekend so all i'm looking for is a/c. Do something for your bloodpressure and just don't watch all those idiot box "hunting" shows Hell, I like pigs better anyway. A hundred pound hog combined with an 80 pound doe make sausage trophies to kill for at my house anyway.

People say that theres less hunters every year and say we need to do aomething about it. But its hard for poor people to hunt when it costs em so much to hunt a lease. A friend in Texas says last year was his last deer hunt. Cost him 1100 per bow to take his son deer hunting. He lives in west texas n says theres no public land close to him. I know a few others in Lubbock that have also quit hunting for the same reasons. As for baiting, we have so much corn around here that I'm not sure baiting helps that much. Not sure how to feel about baiting but I do know it sure is a good feeling when you know you've patterned and outsmarted a wild deer usinbg only natural feeding areas.

last year or so read an article in newspaper about a "hunting" ranch where the "hunter"from the comfort of their own home i believe it was,could shoot a deer with a gun set-up by remote control.what's the point?

One last comment, I think peoples opinions on baiting depend alot on whether they're out for meat or the thrill of the hunt.

hogtamer, I don't watch the bubba's shoot tame deer over corn for more than a second or two. There are only one or two shows worth watching IMO, and they are all hunting private property in the Midwest. That's as close to fair chase as you'll find, even though those deer are coming to food plots (aka, soybeans and corn) and they are stupid as heck because they haven't been pressured by hunters all season.

GLF, I've sent letter after letter to TX Parks and Wildlife trying to tell them that the lack of available public hunting land will be the death of hunting in Texas, and eventually the death of the agency because of all the revenue hunting generates. I feel that some in TX are just fine with morphing real hunting into "game farms" that they will somehow regulate with a whole new set of rules.

It really makes me laugh to think that an agency like TPWD can even regulate "hunting" behind high fences. Just wait and see what happens once the private high-fence landowners tell the department to take a hike because they are managing livestock. I predict that hunting licenses will no longer be required on private land in Texas before long. Already the case with fishing licenses. And with 98% of the state in private land, where does the agency think it's revenue is going to come from?

One thing they have done right is to expand their public hunting lands program, including leasing private property for the public to use. I hunted some of these private lands for dove this year, and I can tell you it's a great program and a wonderful deal. Anyone that doesn't take advantage of it is just silly IMO.

Oh, and tell that friend to take his kids to Amistad, or one of the many WMA's or state parks out west where they can draw for hunts. Lots of public dove and small game areas around Lubbock too. But if you're a deer hunter, then you really are out of luck in that area. Better off going to New Mexico and chasing muleys on BLM land east of Roswell.

Where there's a will, there's a way, but we are collectively losing our will I think.

John.

I personally detest game farms and high fence hunting and hope to see it disappear. Baiting is not my cup of tea but I don't see it as unethical the way I do high fence game farms.

I have said this before, but I believe that the high fence game farming industry will kill itself off eventually. The reason is that most folks who hunt them do so because of laziness and ego. It is easy to kill an animal that is large enough to mount on their wall and brag about, or get their picture on a magazine. But most activities that are easy and don't require much effort evetually get boring and people quit. No challenge = no interest. Also, the public backlash among hunters and non-hunters is certainly growing toward these operations and when these folks can no longer garner ooh's and aahh's from people for killing a corn-fed, test-tube, pet deer there won't be any glory to be had and so they will find some other activity to pad their ego. Add to that the down turn in the economy, and I truly believe that these operation's days are numbered.

Oh and limbwalker, check out Eastman's Hunting Journal if you get a chance. It is a mix of gun and bow hunting, but it is all fair chase, and most hunting is done on public land.

Mark

My family had a place upstate NY when I was a kid. Many of the locals had apple trees and/or large gardens on their property. Much of this produce was used to feed their families. It made sense for them to place a stand in the trees around the small 5 or 6 tree apple orchards on their property. Naturally they'd kill several deer on their way to the apple trees. One local guy who was a contractor and had done alot of work on my uncle's place was particularly generous with me. He didn't want any guns out there because the small orchard was only 200 hundred yards behind his house but he told me to feel free to bowhunt back there if I really wanted to get a deer with the bow. I didn't feel as though I was hunting over bait and I'd still be doing it if he hadn't passed away and sold the place. The surrounding woods provided plenty of acorns and browse so the deer had their choice. There was no place better though once those apples ripened.

I hunt bears in Maine over bait and do not apologize for it one bit! Bottom line is that game populations must be managed and controlled or nature will take care of it in a far less desireable way. In some areas spot and stalk just won't get the job done due to terrain, thickness of cover and so forth. In those areas you can, as Gundy says, sit and watch the birds, hunt over bait, or tree them with hounds (also legal in Maine). Which is your choice? I figure bears coming to baits know there is danger (you can tell it by their demeanor around the bait), but bears chased and treed by dogs don't have nearly the chance that a free roaming bear has around a bait site. Baiting is certainly not a sure thing--during my week in Maine this year out of 12 hunters with the outfitter, four took bears--I was the only bow hunter to tag one. Several never saw a bear all week. So maybe you don't choose to hunt them there, Limbwalker, but the population needs to be controlled and the fish and game people have decided that this is the only effective way to do it in Maine and I'm more than willing to help them out--so cool the rant and stop thinking that all of us have to think like you do!

I'm sickened by where hunting is going to. Read St. Charles' last chapter in Bows on the Little Delta for an opinion that mirrors my own. Two quick stories to demonstrate what sickens me.

I went to Texas to hunt spring gobblers a number of years ago. I was going with a very old time trapper who's name many of you would recognize as he was in the lure business and wrote trapping books with his brothers. When we got there, he and his brother in law, another old timer, set me up at a feeder on the first morning. "Whoa, whoa, whoa" says I, "I can't hunt this way". They told me that in Texas, you'd never see any game if you didn't sit at the feeder; that it was just to thick otherwise and the birds rarely/ever came out. Well, I wandered off on my own and killed 4 big longbeards in the first two days without the benefit of the bait. Made believers out of the old timers.

Just recently I was sitting in a local coffee shop and two guys dressed as hunters were sitting nearby and trying to get in on a conversation with the locals. I just didn't like their looks (not to mention that it wasn't hunting season yet) and I ignored them but one of the guys I was with engaged them in conversation. They puffed out their chests and explained that they were there to film a hunting show for show X, Y or Z on the Outdoor Channel. I pointed out that nothing was in season and asked what they were hunting. They answered that they were going to the local boar preserve to tape a show there. I quickly advised them that if it didn't work out that they could come up to my place and that I had a whole herd of Highland cows in a smallish pasture that they could shoot and tape. I think they got the idea because they shut up and left the coffee shop.

It's truly sad and it's getting worse all the time. Look in a Cabelas catalog. In addition to the page after page of electronic doodads, you also have several pages of bait, lure, scents and delivery systems. Whatever happened to being a woodsman and knowing something about the game you pursue? I have no problem with the original post and I happen to agree with the poster.

You can't put high fences and baiting in the topic sentence. Oh, you can bait behind tall fences. But like OSB mentioned, when hunting in mature conifers, which some must, it's almost impossible to pattern whitails. Unless your fortunate to be near a bedding area. I guess some people are not only excellent archers, but embodiments of Fred Bear.

I am surprised the firestorm hasn't fully erupted yet, John. 8^0 However I am totally in agreement with both your premises. Modern folk are too programed towards instant gratification in virtually every facet of life, so it is quite natural that the same attitude would make its way to hunting. What is sad is that folks who talk about doing things the "hard way" with traditional tackle then go out and bait to lure game into range. The last time I expressed this sentiment on a different site, a fellow Michigander called me "narrow minded" and a "hater". He was still grumpy that the discovery of CWD precipitated the banning of deer baiting last fall and I was glad to see it happen. Apparently some folks don't have much luck in the woods if they aren't positioned over a pile of produce.............

TL

Here my 2 cents, each state determines and governs wildlife. Sportsman have a voice in the state government. If farmers can make a buck then I am for it. They have a rough life anyway. The numbers of hunters is declining and we need every hunter that we can because of buying hunting lic. go to fund wildlife projects. If a hunter hunts over bait then so be it, I'm not going to look down my nose at them. If you are planning a hunt with someone then ask questions like how do you hunt, over bait, ect. To the person who spent a ton of money in Texas but didn't want to hunt over bait then come to WV and you can hunt on public land were you can walk 10 miles without crossing a road. We don't mind out of state hunters because we like the money from the Lic. We have one of the best run programs around and the hunting is great.

I am also glad that they banned baiting in Michigan.Maybe the people will learn to hunt all over again. There is to much instant gradtafacation coming from a lot of people who call themselvs hunters. Ron K

And I suppose that a $20 bottle of doe pee is not baiting?

And a decoy is not baiting?

And a set of rattling horns or a call is not baiting?

LBB

And I suppose that a $20 bottle of doe pee is not baiting?

And a decoy is not baiting?

And a set of rattling horns or a call is not baiting?

LBB

"I believe that the high fence game farming industry will kill itself off eventually. The reason is that most folks who hunt them do so because of laziness and ego. It is easy to kill an animal that is large enough to mount on their wall and brag about, or get their picture on a magazine. But most activities that are easy and don't require much effort evetually get boring and people quit. No challenge = no interest. Also, the public backlash among hunters and non-hunters is certainly growing toward these operations and when these folks can no longer garner ooh's and aahh's from people for killing a corn-fed, test-tube, pet deer there won't be any glory to be had and so they will find some other activity to pad their ego. Add to that the down turn in the economy, and I truly believe that these operation's days are numbered..."

Mark, I absolutely hope you're right. Down here, the Warren bro's and "Dr. Deer" are predicting that high fence game farms are the future of hunting. Kroll was saying that 20+ years ago when I worked for him. I told him that if that's the future of hunting, then I want nothing to do with it and eventually went to work for another prof. not long after that.

So I hope you're right... And I do like that show pretty well. One of the very few good ones.

"Whatever happened to being a woodsman and knowing something about the game you pursue?"

I guess this is my point. I thought this is what we were trying to do.

John.

I have a small plot of land here that I have worked hard to pay for it, all the deer have dispeared because of a total mast failure .

The neighbors have started feeding the goats and cows fodder and corn. He said there was 31 deer in his field last evening. He hunts and allows no one but family on his place with the exception of a recovery for a wounded animal , which is his right he owns it.

The only way I will take a deer this year is a buck traveling between his field and the other neighbors bait pile through me . The deer will browse some on soft stuff but with the yellow acorns in place I can't compete. Anyhow we'll see how it turns out . If it's legal do what you like , it's not my place to judge anyone .

Good Luck Jack

There sure seems to be a difference between what folks call "OK". Besides the regional and cultural distinctions where does "fair chase" come into play?

God help you guys who have never had the opportunity to see what a open range, public, uncontroled hunt is like. Where all you take is your wits, and your weapon, figure out the pattern, build a hide out of what's there, and hunt.

"God help you guys who have never had the opportunity to see what a open range, public, uncontroled hunt is like. Where all you take is your wits, and your weapon, figure out the pattern, build a hide out of what's there, and hunt..."

I agree juspassin. In fact, I feel sort of sorry for those that don't make the effort to do this. I've yet to live in a state where you couldn't find a place within a few hours drive to hunt free-ranging wild game w/o bait or fences. Some of my favorite hunts were for muleys in New Mexico, glassing, spotting and stalking on tens of thousands of acres of BLM lands. Tough hunting, but when you got in position for a shot, you earned every bit of it.

And yes, I consider hunting between a corn field and soybean field to be a form of baiting. Did it for years in Illinois, but I was not nearly as satisfied with the deer I shot in those situations as I was with the deer I shot in more wild conditions.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. If anyone interprets this thread that way, they have pretty thin skin. Just offering my perspective on where we're going wrong these days.

I think if some folks just had the opportunity to hunt truly wild animals, once they finally got one they'd never go back. Upon moving back to Texas, I took my son out west to hunt free-ranging whitetails on public land (no bait, no fences). He told me on the first ride home that he enjoyed that style of hunting 10 times more than sitting in a stand in Illinois on the edge of a soybean field. I couldn't agree more.

John.

"Like I said, I just thank God for the little public land we do have, and I consider a deer taken off public land with traditional archery tackle to be one of the greatest hunting accomplisments a person can have. To me, anything less than that is dumbing down the tradition and history of bowhunting."

I sure hope you kill animals for meat and substance ONLY limbwalker. Anything less than that is direspectfull to the animals. but like someone above said, the journey is more important than the kill itself. And thats prefectly fine as thats the way I do it but I do not put down baiters and HF hunting. Without realizing it you and about 50% of most hunters are in it for SPORT (how you do it) than substance. Yes you and most enjoy venison but you are not substance hunters as much as sport hunters....and that can and should be labeled DISGUSTING by a pure meat hunter...who baits...whether you like it or not.

Carefull where you throw those stones.

I get a kick outa guys who equate baiting to food crops. Not in my wildest dreams whether I was for or against baiting could I see where the two are even remotely alike. Where I hunt theres probably 2 or 3 thousand acres of corn and soy beans. Where is that even remotely like hunting over a food pile. The deer have miles and miles of field edges to go in and out of. Its just like hunting hardwoods, you have to learn to pattern deer in their own habitat. As for northern wisconsin I always thought that was some of the best hunting around.(without bait)Of course I haven't hunted there for 15 or 20 years now. Are there less deer than in the 80's?

No there are more deer there and I hunt there...without bait. We're an instant gratification society. No one wants to work at anything. WI has raised generations of hunters who don't think that they can kill a deer without bait. Very sad. Too bad they don't know what they are missing.

Longboman... I certainly hope you are kidding?.. "Sport" hunting is the most abused word in the "anti" vocabulary.. Meat hunters could also be labled as the shoot anything that moves crowd? For someone to challenge themselves becomming closer to one on one with a game animal is to be applauded in my book.. Nothing disgusting about it... To each his own..

Oh for pete's sake some of you guys just WANT to be offended. Give me a break. I said a "FORM" of baiting. I by no means put it in the same category as piles of corn under a timed feeder.

Stop taking everything so darn personally. Just because I don't like some things doesn't mean you need to feel offended. Just my .02, that's all. Feel free to disagree.

And Longboman (is that spelled correctly?), I don't consider hunting a "sport" at all. To me, it's spiritual and as necessary as the air I breathe and the water I drink. It is one of the ways I connect with nature and God's creation. And if I remember correctly, I am directed by God to take part in this. So, call that what you want, but I don't choose to water it down by creating artificial circumstances. I prefer to hunt God's creatures the way they have existed on this planet for millenia.

IMO, those that take shortcuts are only cheating themselves in the long run, and they don't have the same respect for the animals.

John.

Sorry limbwalker, I wasn't referrring to your food plot comment. I said what I said because someone always equates hunting farm ground or deep woods with acorns to baiting. Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in before they could this time,lol.

I agree 100% per cent Limbwalker. Thats not hunting, just killing.

I've killed two deer over bait. Would never hunt a high fence. Killing a deer over bait ain't a done deal. At least not here in Arkansas. Killing buck over a year and a half old is about is not at all common over bait. They get smart fast.

Which brings me to another point. Baiting does not make deer tame. Some states have just plain dumb deer. Certain states have very little hunting pressure and some have more. All the midwest big buck states don't have the hunting pressure that mine has.

There are really big deer here but very hard to kill them. I have friends that only concentrate on IA, KS, NE, etc. just because they know they can kill big bucks there. The bucks just don't act the same as here they tell me. Hunting fence rows in KS they would not even shoot a buck under 130 inches.

So my point here is you can say baiting is unethical, but how ethical is it to hunt dumb sex crazed midwestern bucks that walk around in the daylight like they don't have a clue?

I too love the old baiting is no different than hunting over a acorn tree or a apple tree. Man evidently it's been a long long time since you actually hunted. Ever see a acorn tree or apple tree produce fruit each and every year and keep dropping the entire bow season? All the acorn or apple trees I've ever hunted may not produce for years in a row and none have ever kept producing "bait" clear through the deer season. And none have ever dropped "bait" only at times I could be there hunting. And lastly I love the guys who say "yeah I bait, I've done it both ways and there is no difference" well then why do you keep baiting?

In baiting you control where the baits set, when its refreshed, and what bait is used. In natural instances you have no control. You find the food source and bedding areas and figure out how and where to hunt. Big difference between that n building a nice treehouse and setting bait in the optimal place to afford you the shot you want. And only baiting at certain times to get the animals coming there when you want. Personally I'll stick to scouting and actually "hunting" the deer.

I noticed that none of you "anti baters" addressed my question about the $20 bottle of doe pee.

You guys crack me up.

LBB

There are big differences in baiting, some I have no problem with,, Others "No Thank you" However almost as frustrating as baiting and high fences are those who have to whine about it all the time, or insult someone's "hero picture" with insinuations of "High Fence" etc etc, before they even give the guy a chance.

Didn't mean to miss answering your thread LBB. So what of it? Personally I don't use doe pee either. All I have ever had was no luck or back luck while using it. Does it work that great for you? Same for rattling, does it work every single time bringing in monster bucks for you? Must get boring if all that junk works every time for ya.

the high fence ranchers are looking at it as a business....and is designed to make money.. i think that is where things get a little confusing.. in the past hunting was a way to have time with your family etc,,and was about values and ethics.....and some see the high fence ranches as somehow changing things and values in a negative way.. but the bottom line is,, we all decide what is right or wrong. and as the general consensus of what hunting is changes.. so will the way our future hunters will think.. holding on to traditional values is difficult in an ever changing world. where money is king..

I don't have the answers for sure, ,but understand the concerns brought up by the issues of baiting and high fence.. the implications go beyond how much some one will pay to shoot a buck. but how our future hunters will think bout alot of important issues. it is a reflection that is really telling...on many levels..

Just want to say this. Hunting the "right" way is all fun and dandy. Bait or no bait. Whatever. Keep in mind what hunting actually is. It's a management tool. Those out there hunting for spiritual reasons with no real care whether you tag or not doesn't get it done from a decreasing the numbers point of view. It has to be done or they'll be bringing in the sharpshooters at midnight to do what you haven't. The deer have to be managed. Keep that in mind as you stretch out the legs and light your pipe. It is a beautiful day. Baiting just helps get it done. Don't want to do it? Fine. There's different ways to get the job done. Do I bait? No. All the power to those that do. Some of you guys really have to get out and get away from the keyboard.

For starters hunting high fence is the lazy mans hunt or kill. I feel the same way about baiting. I hunt s.w. ohio where it is legal to bait but with the vast crop fields we dont see the need.In order to harvest deer in our area you just have to REALLY HUNT like it was intended. This may step on a few toes but I really hope both high fence and baiting go away forever!

Limbwalker, does the guy hunting deer, over bait, behind a fence prevent another guy from hunting without bait on unfenced public and private property? Like it or not, why not simply ignore it?

Like it or not, why not simply ignore it?

My last post on this topic. To answer simply every study I've read or heard about agrees with my life findings that 80% of the NON hunting folks think hunting over bait is unethical. Those will be the ones who ultimately decide who if any will continue to hunt in the future so that answers my "why not simply ignore it?"

I would like to know how many of you that are against a corn feeder have scouting cameras scattered all over the woods where you hunt.

Baiting was addressed just a few days ago rather extensively.

I live in Texas. I raised the point that in Texas there is very little public land. Money and time are some of the major factors that affect how someone hunts in Texas and probably other areas that have little public land. Texas is 90 percent privately owned. You want to hunt in Texas you better know a friend that owns a ranch, hunt day hunts or have some big bucks to lease the hunting rights for 3 months. The average lease in Tx for 3 months is around $3,000 many are $5,000. and up. You want to kill a 200 plus at the King Ranch well its only $20,000. Most of those that can afford that money also put in a lot of money into their lease. One of them are feeders and corn. The investment is considerable. Now most of these hunters can only hunt on the weekends so time is crucial.

So most of these hunters want something for their investment especially because of the very short hunting window. They want to bring something home. So although they might know there is a more natural way to hunt they cannot afford to experiment with the precious time factor. So they use feeders to capitalize on their investment.

Let face hunting in Texas is a billion dollar business. No one is going to give up their profit. Hunting in Texas no matter whether its behind high fences or over bait is going to be a rich man's hobby. If Texas was not 90 percent privately owned things could be different but that is not a reality.

"I would like to know how many of you that are against a corn feeder have scouting cameras scattered all over the woods where you hunt." ~David

I'll field that question.........NONE, David. I scout "in person" and set up my hunting locations by sign and deer movement. Another presupposition dashed..........

"And I suppose that a $20 bottle of doe pee is not baiting?"

--Some might consider it so, but I don't use any of that junk either. A friend of mine is a wildlife biologist and is highly concerned about the potential for spreading CWD via urine and feces through game farm waste product collection. Or did you think they ran around behind wild deer with a little funnel, Bob???? And a decoy is not baiting?

--I think a decoy would be considered a "lure" rather than baiting, as the decoy is not made of edible materials. From what I understand of decoy use, one is trying to entice the deer via eyesight vs their stomach. If that is the same to you, then by all means keep beating that particular horse Bob.

And a set of rattling horns or a call is not baiting?

--Ditto to rattling horns being a lure rather than bait, unless you have an edible set that you hang down from your stand like trolling for deer, Bob. You really are beginning to crack me up though. LOL

TL

It took me a couple years to figure out what I was doing and make my first archery kill. But I am proud to say there was NO high fences NO baiting and it was a wild deer not domestic livestock. As for the "$20 doller bottle of doe pee" Its still at the store where it can rot. I patterened the deer and set up on the trail it was all patiance from there.

Coop, that's a reasonable position. Let me ask this, if just for arguments sake there was no risk of losing our rights to hunt. Let's say we passed a constitutional right to hunt. If that were the case, would you then choose to ignore it? Or are there other reasons not to ignore it?

Well I'm sure I will get bashed for this one,but I recently did hunt a high fence and I will tell you why. My family and myself love elk meat but I can't afford to go out west to hunt and I can't draw a tag around close so I decided to go on a cow elk hunt on one of these ranches. Before I decided to book the hunt I went back and forth with myself over am I really going to do this but I thought I would give it one try anyway. With the longbow it was still a challenge and I was really pleased. I am by no means a trophy hunter but if I continue to fail at drawing tags here I may consider this option again. So go ahead and bash I have pretty thick skin,but no matter what you hunt or how you do it I wish you great peace in doing it.

This is an interesting debate which actually prompts me to ask for some help.

I grew up in the woods of Manitoba and Ontario. I taught myself to hunt (with a gun) because I wanted to and nobody in my family did. At 14 was as at home in the woods as most boys are in their bedrooms.

The Army took these skills, built on them and gave me new ones (land navigation, marksmanship, field craft). I was taught to survive off the land in deserts, jungles and forests.

I would say that I am competent in most areas of woodsmanship. However one thing I struggle to do is pattern deer in vast forests (not farms, food plots, small woodlots) because they lead a much more random life (IMO). I would love to take a deer by still hunting (and nearly did a few days back) or by good patterning work but (in honesty) I struggle to get the consistency needed. Rattling and grunting doesn't work due to very low buck densities.

I don't know a serious bowhunter leave alone traditional hunter to help me with this. Everyone here hunts with rifles in large hunt camps. Maybe they go out with a compound/x-bow after gun season but not with any passion.

Here's my issue. Where I live now once gun season hits the woods become a combat zone. After that any deer left (the smart ones) have probably dug a fox hole and come out once a week to eat in the black of night. As a result I focus on bagging a deer before this happens. I hunt A LOT during this time and hope to succeed the hard way BUT getting meat in the freezer is important to me so I have one stand where I've place a salt lick and some apples which deer come to sporadically. I view this as some for of boosting my odds when push comes to shove before the gun season opens. Ultimately, if I take a deer from this location I will be pleased but if I get one at a different spot (with no bait) I'd be overjoyed! When all is said an done "a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush".

So what? Well if you live even remotely close to Ottawa, Ontario and are wise in the ways of deep woods deer AND ARE WILLING TO HELP please drop me a PM to see if I can make this dream a reality.

As to the ethics of baiting and high fences there's a big difference in "doing it yourself" no matter how and showing up somewhere, paying thousands and waiting in an assigned seat for something of appropriate size to show up.

To me hunting is about the work YOU put in not how big your bank account is.

"a guy throws a few apples in the woods is no different to a deer than an apple tree dropping them..."

To the deer, no. But to me, yes.

"But if you guys think that the deer knows different - good for you -"

OSB, you're missing my point. It's not what the deer knows, it's what I the hunter knows. And I know the difference between natural fair chase and a contrived, artificial situation. In fact, I think we all do. It's just that it means more to some than others. That's not a good or bad thing necessarily, but it is an important distinction to me.

Doublelung - hogwash. I live and hunt in Texas and I've managed to find several areas to hunt that are low fence, no bait public lands and I can hunt thousands of acres for less than $70 per year. I don't use the "time" excuse because my time is worth as much to me as anyone else. It all comes down to what a person is willing to give up in order to kill something. I don't need to kill a deer that badly that I will compromise my principles to do it. And a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. The liberating thing about hunting low fence, public, no-bait lands with a traditional bow is that ANY deer you kill under those circumstances is a trophy - and you and I both know it. Who cares what it scores.

Gotta agree with Sparta-T too about the rattling horns. Rattling horns should probably be considered "lures" rather than bait. I'm not sure about the scents. To me, they kinda fall in the middle. I don't use them anyway. I'd bet the first Americans had lures of their own, but I doubt they were able to bait and they certainly didn't high fence.

Susquehanna, I try to all the time (I drive past high fences twice a day, every day I go to work). Most days I do a pretty good job of it, but between the fences and the millions of pounds of "deer corn" that is sold this time of year in the name of "hunting", sometimes it just gets to me.

John.

I agree exactly with the last line of your original post. One free ranging doe is better than a high fence trophy. But I'm not as critical of baiting under certain conditions, like hunting a national forest without a lot of time to scout. I cut those guys some slack. I havn't baited in my 20 yrs of bowhunting.........yet.

I completely agree....I still think golf is not a needed sport and a wast of land though.

"Longboman... I certainly hope you are kidding?.. "Sport" hunting is the most abused word in the "anti" vocabulary.. Meat hunters could also be labled as the shoot anything that moves crowd? For someone to challenge themselves becomming closer to one on one with a game animal is to be applauded in my book.. Nothing disgusting about it... To each his own"

No kidding here. If were not killing for meat and substance then there is a form of "sport" in our killing. "Sport" being relative to each of us. Your right there is nothing disgusting about challenging oneself one on one when hunting. But a pure meat hunter whether they bait or not listening to limbwalker would be correct in labeling his hunting disgusting. As far as labeling meat hunters "shoot anything that moves"... well if there killing for meat then what your problem?

limbwalker yes longboman is correct (the real spelling was taken many years ago when I got here) I see what your saying and we hunt alike but I've always respected the WHY someone is killing an animal than the WAY they are killing it. Pure meat hunter do exist (small pecentage I know) and some use bait. You talk about hunting traditions...how far back you want to go? Lets poisan some arrow tips and run some game over cliffs. Those are fine in my book if your doing it for substance. The traditional way to hunt is for meat and substance...ahaa! We don't HAVE to hunt and kill today though do we? But we CHOOSE (no you don't need to hunt as much as you need to breath and drink water) to hunt. Some do it like I did for 15 years (cut you tree and make selfbows and arrows) and some pick a rifle and corn feeder. Makes no difference. Besides Why do you WANT everybody hunting your way? I always got a kick out hunting here in Tx the way I did without everybody doing it MY way. Thare is a differnce in a corn pile and apple tree. there is a differnce between a feeder and foodplot or corn field. There is NO difference in open range and a 25,000 acre high fence ranch. There is a difference between a 25,000 HF ranch and a 300 acre HF farm.

I try to keep in mind the difference in WHY someone is hunting and killing game animals verses the WAY they are hunting and killing...and to respect those ways whether I hunt that way or not.

The baiting thing won't go away. Honestly, I don't have much of a problem with it, because for the most part I think those who bait are doing more harm than good. I doubt alot of truly big bucks are killed over bait. They wise up to it in a hurry. As far as the fencing thing....I hate to see it happen here in the U.S. But if you go to Africa, you will more than likely hunt in a fenced area. BUT the area will be like 25 square miles. The thing in Africa is that if an animal is on your property...you own it. But in reality over there....the fences do more to keep poachers out than animals in. Most of the animals can get past them if they really want to.

"We don't HAVE to hunt and kill today though do we?"...Yes we have to...Theres no other way to get pure wild healthy meat then to hunt and kill it.

"Baitning" is not ok but "lures" are?

This is too funny! Now we are at the heart of the matter.

A $200 decoy with an electronic tail wagger and a remote control grunt call, surrounded by $40 from 2 bottles of doe pee is just fine.

But a $2 buck of corn. OMG!!!!

I suppose that huning antelope over a man made water trough is not ok.

This is too much fun.

LBB

Oh yeah, and what about all you guys with trail cameras?

LBB

PS. In case you haven't noticed I love poiking you guys.

Lets go hunting fellows.

I just seen this post and read most of it but not every post, but I got the jest. I think we are talking about advantage and the balance of it. Deer are smart, big bucks the smartest. Here are the extremes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,a high fence around a 5 acre lot with 50 raised deer and taping a show where hunters pay to shoot them is bad. I always like it when they pass up 10 160 class deer the first morning and say they are waiting for the big one. By the way, my wife just started hunting with me, and when we see a show like that I tell her that in reality she will more than likely never even see a 160 class deer in a whole hunting season and maybe ever. The other extreme would be to just get your bow out and sit in the back yard in your neighbor hood and hope a deer will come by. Where is the line,,,,,,,is camo an advantage,,,,,,is tree stand an advantage??? I have 33 acres that I hunt on and where my property is, there is not much crop and the deer are not real big, yes I wear camo, and yes I have a tree stand up and yes even a ground blind. I try to figure the best spot to ambush a deer and hunt it. Side note. I did e-mail one of those hunting shows that you always see massive bucks and ask them to come to my 33 acres and tape a show. I told them I don't see 160 and 170 class bucks but maybe they are there and I'm doing something wrong and they were welcome to come up and show me how its done.

baiting is illegal here in tennessee & next door in virginia. only difference is, virginia wised up & prohibited the "feeding" of deer anywhere in the state after sept 1. go into any wally world or dick's sporting goods here in tennessee, & the largest amount of floor space in their sporting goods area is devoted to shelled corn by the skidload. advertised as "wildlife feed" of course, since baiting is illegal. yeah, we're covered up by "sportsmen" here. my uncle, who USED to be a real hunter, has "feeders" on his lease now. he was telling me last year about a big buck he had been watching, but didn't get to shoot because "another car came up behind me & scared it into the woods..." you want to kill deer over a pile of corn? go ahead, but don't come running with pix of the deer you killed wanting to show them off. what a waste... pondscum

My buddy just went off on a guy that he saw setting in an apple tree

John, each area has its own way of doing things. I'm not about to tell a fellow or gal in Northern Maine how to hunt bear but I can tell you how I like to hunt. Some of my good friends enjoy hunting that way. I live in NH which was one of the 13 colonies. We're old here and so am I. I hunt to relax and feel young again. This is what I like to do. I grab my bow and quiver, get in my car, drive 5 minutes to my 2 spots and hunt. Hopefully, I'll drive a little further this year to hunt with my buddy Ridge. I sit by an oak tree if I can find one. Sometimes I just wander around the woods still hunting-barely moving. I almost had a shot at a nice fat gray squirrel but by the time I got my squirrel arrow out bushy tail was gone. Often I wander into areas dotted with old stone walls like yesterday morning. I marvel at the amount of sweat farmers poured into clearing their land for planting. Talk about the right to bare arms. They rolled up their sleeves and kept the flintlock handy. Just amazing and some of that clearing was done before the advent of the tractor. I can remember roaming these areas as a boy, bow in hand, growing up in rural MA. One part of the wall yesterday had an area a little higher than the others and was built with smaller rocks. I sit and think about the life and times of the men, women and children who built these walls. They are the ones that started this country along with my neighbors in MA. There was a fair amount of deer sign in that area. I didn't see any deer but I still saw a lot. I'll show my buddy Rod the area. I convinced him this year to start hunting with his recurve. Next week may be. Lord willing. High fences? No thanks. There's none of that here anyway. I'll go for the high stone walls. :) Jawge

John, each area has its own way of doing things. I'm not about to tell a fellow or gal in Northern Maine how to hunt bear but I can tell you how I like to hunt. Some of my good friends enjoy hunting that way. I live in NH which was one of the 13 colonies. We're old here and so am I. I hunt to relax and feel young again. This is what I like to do. I grab my bow and quiver, get in my car, drive 5 minutes to my 2 spots and hunt. Hopefully, I'll drive a little further this year to hunt with my buddy Ridge. I sit by an oak tree if I can find one. Sometimes I just wander around the woods still hunting-barely moving. I almost had a shot at a nice fat gray squirrel but by the time I got my squirrel arrow out bushy tail was gone. Often I wander into areas dotted with old stone walls like yesterday morning. I marvel at the amount of sweat farmers poured into clearing their land for planting. Talk about the right to bare arms. They rolled up their sleeves and kept the flintlock handy. Just amazing and some of that clearing was done before the advent of the tractor. I can remember roaming these areas as a boy, bow in hand, growing up in rural MA. One part of the wall yesterday had an area a little higher than the others and was built with smaller rocks. I sit and think about the life and times of the men, women and children who built these walls. They are the ones that started this country along with my neighbors in MA. There was a fair amount of deer sign in that area. I didn't see any deer but I still saw a lot. I'll show my buddy Rod the area. I convinced him this year to start hunting with his recurve. Next week may be. Lord willing. High fences? No thanks. There's none of that here anyway. I'll go for the high stone walls. :) Jawge

Since everyone has their own thoughts on high fences and baiting, I'll throw in my two cents worth.

LongbowBob, I agree with you and have used your rattling, decoys, and estrous pee example with these baiting topics.

TO ME, whether you bait with corn (or doughnuts for bears), use tinks 69, decoy, or rattle, or call you are using artificial means to attract or coax an animal to your location. (TO ME) It doesn't matter if you are appealing to his belly, or gonads its still artifically introduced attractants helping to get the amimal close to you for a shot opportunity.

I have baited with corn and sweet potatos before in NC where it was legal with varing success at best. Its not a done deal when the corn hits the ground. Eastern NC Deer are pretty crafty, and they quickly learn to dine after dark and before dawn. I have never had much luck when using calls or rattles so I don't waste the time or money doing it.

Here in AL, baiting is illegal, but much like pondscum's account, the farm coops and walmarts sell enough deer corn in the fall and winter to probably cover the lower 1/3 of the state of AL 1 foot deep with corn. The Cons Officers are rarely seen outside of a 10 foot radius from their truck and most of the baiting goes unpunished. What sucks is when you are surrounded by baiters that pull the deer off the property you hunt. To me, there is no need to have laws if you cannot enforce them enough to at least make it 'risky' to break the law.

I don't care for hunting within high fences.

Oops. :) Jawge

Hunting High Fences George D. Stout

I've come to my senses about hunting high-fences though some of you may disagree.

Cause many will now cry, just how high is to high, and what does that matter to me.

But what is the sense in having a fence, is it meant to keep out or keep in?

And if I take part do I know in my heart if it's ethical, legal or sin?

I have a big tent but I don't think it's meant to have too many people inside.

Cause it's just eight by ten and is made for three men as long as their bows are outside.

So I'll just stay confused, perhaps even amused at the bantering pitched in this forum.

Cause the fences and tents, to me make no sense, cause my plaids and wool clash with decorum.

Limbwalker --- I'm very curious ---- exactly how do you hunt (what is your strategy and implemented "tricks of the trade"? ) on this public, non-highfenced, nonbaited, non-domesticated animals, land? I'm serious. Tell me how to use my time more wisely under these conditions. How do you avoid all the wannabes who are eagerly out and about, wandering, four wheeling, moving stands, walking through your chosen area, etc. Also what type of meat harvest and mature buck harvest do you usually accomplish? To me, public land is a lot like liberal govt' programs --- good intent, good idea,..... but very poor realistic design. Please give me some tips. Thanks, and best of luck this season. oso

Its all about killing animals so you can puff you're chest out and act like some hero macho man, whatever it takes. If I had to resort to either one I'd feel like i'd done nothing a 6 year old girl could do. This thread on another well known so called "hunting" forum would get you lynched, like I was last year after making a comment about some videos a fellow was posting, all containing baited animals shot from a ground blind. I was amazed at how many "hunters" defended this guys actions. Its disapointing So many are doing this. Looks like the traditional sport has eroded quite a bit since I've gotten in to it. Suits me if every state in the country would band baiting, public and private. Bet that would cut down on 2/3 of these hero pictures.

r.grider ..... I agree with everything you say. Outlawing baiting would cut down on "hero pictures".... It would also DRASTICLY cut down on the archery-harvested animals in many areas. Come to think of it, what about these really good elk caller/hunter tandem duos that get the big fellas in at 5 yrds. ? As smart and realistic as the Native Americans were, I'm sure they knew EVERY trick in the book and liberally employed whatever worked to get food back to the teepee. oso oso

Well, the wifes out with friends and I'm just sitting here watching UM kick Florida A&M's butt so I'll throw in my 2 cents as well. For starters, and not that it makes any difference but it tells you where I am coming from, I hunt nothing but public land here in Florida. The only decoys I've ever used were for spring turkey and they haven't helped much yet, baiting is illegal on public land in Florida and I wouldn't do it if it wasn't. I've never used deer pee of any kind, trail cams, atv. I wear whatever camo was on sale at the end of last season and I build my own arrows and strings. I do (or dont do) these things because I enjoy doing things this way. I do not hunt for food, which is good because I'd be pretty hungry most of the time but I eat everything I shoot. Like most of us, I can buy all the beef and pork I need at the grocery store. Similar to longboman, what is important to me is why you hunt. I believe that this should dictate how you hunt to a certain degree. I will never ridicule or begrudge a man to hunt within the limits of the law. I may not join him, but hey, to each his own. At the same time, whenever I get the opportunity to speak or vote on the subject, I call it like I see it. Now for the very small portion of the population that wouldn't eat meat if they didn't kill it in the woods, I don't care if they hunt around 1000# of corn soaked with 100 gallons of C'mere deer with claymore mines and trip wires. At the same time, while I don't agree with high fence semi tame hunting and would not participate in it under any circumstances if it is legal in your area and you own the land and breed/own the deer, I don't really care if you beat the deer to death with a car antenna. I certainly don't appreciate people telling me what to do with my stuff so I try to reciprocate. Again, if given the opportunity to vote on it I go against it every time but if the majority like it I have to swallow it. I spent 4 years in the US Navy defending the rights of individuals and the laws of the land whether I agreed with them or not. Bottom line is its a personal choice and personally, I dont bait, lure, or hunt high fences because I think it's more fun not to.

When it comes to hunting and hunting methods my opinion is to hunt as you like. If it's legal and it floats your boat, screw anyone elses holier than thou attitudes.

You only have yourself to answer to, not some lose-jawed jack ass looking down his nose at the other half.

I simply hate to see what I consider the collective deterioration of hunting skills. Parents teaching their kids (whether it's said or implied) that you can buy a "hunt" instead of earning it.

We as hunters have a long tradition of becoming woodsmen, learning about the habits of our quarry, and spending long hours preparing our equipment. Seems that too few have the dicipline or patience for these things anymore. I think it's sad and have done my best to try to teach my son the true meaning of HUNTING the HARD WAY.

John.

LW I think most everybody WISHES everybody approached hunting the way you and I do...where we differ is the tolerance. longshot sums it up pretty good imo. longshot you a miami fan? I'm from east tennessee but grew up in the Orlando area...GO CANES! Sucks the game was not offered here in Dallas area.

One of my best pals just got his first deer tonight (compound guy). He has been baiting with a LOT of corn, sweet feed, minerals, etc. for months. He said that the dozens of deer that came in sniffed the bait for a whole 3 seconds and then ignored it and browsed for acorns. I don't thing it gives us a really unfair advantage. It certainly isn't much different than ambushing a deer in a stand of acorns or other abundant natural food.

If there is no advantage why spend the money putting it out? To feed squirrels and coons ?

Maybe it ,baiting, is not the "slam dunk" everybody thinks it is. For me there is a huge difference between hunting on a small fenced parcel, where they kick the critter out of the box a few minutes befroe the "sprot" plugs it, and hunting on some of the huge places like they have in Texas or South Africa. You can have thousands of acres under good game managemnt practice. Are they wilderness hunts? No. But most deer live about 90% of their lives within about 2 square miles, so when the properties get large, the fence has less effect than most guys think.

If you don't want to hunt there fine, but don't disparage all those Texas hunter that have found that this is the only way they are going to get ot hunt, or all those guys who hunt in states where baiting is legal and won't see any deer if they don't bait too.

LBB

As long as it is legal I don't care if everyone shoots deer staked out in the yard.Pile them in a 10x10 fence and have at them.Does not mean I have to do it that way.I hunt the way I want in the limites of the law.I expect others to do the same.I don't care what others do as long as it is legal where they hunt.I don't care what they think of the way I might want to do things either.Hunting is about the last thing that is not a team sport.I make my own rules and don't try and make them for others.jmo

My food plot failed badly this year.Is it ok if I throw some store bought turnips on my plot area?:)

If it doesn't trip a question in your head, then you are good to go I suppose, as long as it's legal in your area. I try to curb any ethnocentric notions I get from time to time, so I'll leave the level of involvement to those who have to live with it.

That said, I think I can easily see the difference between an oak grove, and a stump full of K-Meer Deer. Your mileage may vary.

"but don't disparage all those Texas hunter that have found that this is the only way they are going to get ot hunt, or all those guys who hunt in states where baiting is legal and won't see any deer if they don't bait too..."

With all due respect LBB, I don't believe this at all, and I proved otherwise just 24 hours ago.

Yesterday morning, I shot a nice doe on PUBLIC LAND in Texas. No bait, no high fence, no "cull bucks" or elegant "management plans". No Lease, no trophy fees.

Fact of the matter is, that in Texas, we still have tens of thousands of acres of public hunting lands that we all can access for a simple $48 annual permit.

So it's there if folks want the challenge. Problem is, so few want a challenge anymore. They just want instant gratification with a minimum of work. That's what makes me shake my head.

Not the lessons we need to be handing down IMO.

John.

Good post limbwalker.

Good post limbwalker, and great hunting!! Public land makes ya actually hunt wild deer. Ya need to learn your quarry and looks like you did a fine job of that.

longboman, yes sir I am born and raised in Miami, love it but cant wait to leave when I retire in 14 years if you know what I mean. BTW you can see all those games live with high speed internet at espn360.com. Also, I agree in principle with limbwalker, my tolerance varies a bit as well.

I didn't even read all the post because it makes me sick. when I started deer hunting, it was just you and the deer no deer lure if you wanted that you hoped the doe you killed still had a full bladder when you were cleaning it. If you couldn't drag it out you didn't deserve its meat my grand dad always told me. Only had help when I got older and got a enlarged heart never had a four wheeler always walked. never used salt or bait just me and the deer. If he was on our land he was yours If he move off he was theres. Most candy ass deer hunters I know like to play golf get drunk go to ball games and get drunk but when they go to kill on of god creations If they could have it blinded and let it walk down a set path with fence they would still go for it and give out deer sausage like they were real hunters I would like to stick a sausage where no real man would want it but they would maybe like it and start smiling before they realize what has happened.

Well I guess no one here gos to Africa,or hunts water holes,corn fields,or oak trees or any other type feeding aerias that animals travle.GOOD NEWS!

gotta whittle ---- and I THOUGHT my granddaddy and daddy were harsh and brash ....... but, I really do get your point. Huntin' sure isnt' the same anymore. Comercialization is the same as politics .... it started with good intent, but has always been corrupt and rotten to the core. oso

Limbwalker --- Congratulations on the doe. I drove 21 hrs. to North Dakota to hunt public land specifically to have a shot at harvesting a mature buck that would dress around 200+ lbs. Here in my part of Texas, a large buck will dress around 145-150 lbs. The second night I had a "chip shot" chance at the biggest doe (four, actually) I have ever seen. But, that's not what I drove all that way to pursue. In many ways with all the food sources at this spot in North Dakota, the hunting would actually be easier than a feeder in Texas. The biggest problem is avoiding intanglement with the many other hunters. Youre' not just learnin' the natural habits of the indigenous deer herd; you are learning how to hunt them with all the unpredictable circumstances put into the equation by other traffic and hunters. oso

Its not just huntings not the same. This is the instant gratification generation. It's the same in almost everything, everyone wants everything "NOW". So whatever is easiest is what gets used.

...Ok, and before farmers ?..wow I wonder how they did it then ? Oh thats right , they HUNTED them.

not that it matters ..Do it the way you do ..YOU have to impress YOU !

farcher, the way I see it, God put those oak trees there and if I find then while I'm scouting, then I'm going to keep that in mind... Big difference my friend.

Oso, I hear ya. Outsmarting the other hunters, to me, is the sport of it. But the hunting in my eyes is not. It is a tradition worthy of being passed down. Some things in life should still be earned. Especially when it comes to killing and using God's creatures.

John.

Do you guys think that somehow you get better enjoyment from the way you hunt and do things than those that might do it different?Why is it you can not enjoy yourself without always worrying about what someone else does?

These threads sound like a bunch of old hens gossiping about the neighbors down the street.LOL Hunt for yourselves in any way that brings you joy.You can bet those guys in the fence or those with the feeders are not worrying about you killing "real wild deer" and such like you are worrying about them.When you climb up on those pedistals just don't expect everyone to look up in your direction.Most are just hunting the way they want and don't give a rats ass about your high perches. ;) jmo

amen

Holier than thou?

Just saying if you dump the feed or find the feed whats the difference,the good old days would be great

Good post John. I won't hunt over bait or behind a fence .

Pete

It never ceases to amaze me when people compare baiting to hunting an oak,food plot, or crop field. The bait pile covers a couple of square feet, and at the selected range from the stand/blind. The others can comprise acres, don't try that argument, it don't float. Plus the fact that the other attractants are still there to feed the animals after the hunting is over, while most never spend more money on bait after the deeed is accomplished. Don't forget to mention the high concentration of animals,food, and feces of a baiting station and the huge potential for disease transmission, and the downright unsightly feedlot appearance. Just set up a deer target and shoot at it if all you are trying to prove is you can hit it.

What about Howard Hill going to Africa on a Elephant hunt and the Big Bull i shot in the Knee so he could not Charge. Now that is real Game Hunting.

High Fences being cut and bait piles being urinated in as we speak !

James, settle down.

I have no worries. Just think it's unfortunate that we're losing our hunting abilities. I don't want to be part of the generation that sees our hunting instinct totally dissapear. But I'm afraid we're on the brink of that. At least here in Texas we are.

Weiman Meinzer did an excellent article about this very thing last year. He was bemoaning the loss of true hunting in this state. And he's absolutely right.

John.

peeing on corn won't work, deer like salt... ;^) pondscum

Oh I am calm John.:)

Just giving my opinion as everyone else does on these type threada.Just take mine with a grain of salt like I do many others each day of reading if you don't agree.Others opinions bother me no more than the way they hunt,distances they want to shoot or choices in arrow weights.I am sure they are grown like me and will do what works for them and what they like doing in the end.I am not out to change the world or the minds of others.I just say what is on my mind like I would if we were sitting at a Waffle House somewhere when I post. :)

LOL...Its fun aint iot !!!

"I just say what is on my mind like I would if we were sitting at a Waffle House somewhere when I post..."

LOL James.

Waffle house talk. I like that ;o)

Same with me.

John.

Me, too. Pass the raspberry syrup...

plain and simple ,it ain't huntin'.

Fact is... Most so called hunters today wouldn't get a deer without baiting..

Good post limbwalker. I feel about this the same way I feel about driving to work instead of walkng or riding a horse. Talk about a loss of tradition. Good grief people! For Pete's sake! If you wanna feel superior to to those that do it a different way, go for it. But don't belittle the other guy for how he does it. That is just bad manners. Now, I know a guy who setup a feeder SIX months before deer season a d ran it halfway through the season. He never saw a deer near it. They probably came to it. At night. They are not magic. They are not a guarantee of success. They are not worth arguing over.

Dr. r.Grider ........ We are illustrating exactly how effective "baiting" is, just by merely repeatedly responding to this thread. ......man, by now we would be two VERY dead deer. ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha................... oso

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

This thread just gets better and better.

I love it 8^)

Stan, Fact is, thousands of bowhunters take deer regularly witout the use of baiting or food plots. Baiting is illegal in many states !

Do you have any statistical evidence to back up your statement ????

Let's not get all drama queen onesharp.. Just yankin the chain a little.. Me an anti? lol.... Now that is funny..

The fact of the matter is I could go out and set bait anywhere in the woods and sooner or later the deer would start hitting it.. As opposed to scouting, reading terrain, reading deer movement, patterning......... yep onesharp, I can see why you think there is no difference......( grin)...

Onesharp, these guys keep bait out, to the point the ground is churned up with no veg due to the traffic. If you really think sitting in a blind, or treestand over one of these spots is as difficult as getting out, scouting the trails and sign to determine where the deer frequent, and thus where to hunt, well, man, you are only kidding you're self. How do I know ? I've done both. Started out baiting, and after a few kills decided I was cheating myself, didn't feel like I had really outsmarted the deer, or me. That apple tree you refer to is a natural source, whether someone planted it or not. It provides food for wildlife year round, in a natural way, and rarely is there one tree alone, or nearby stand trees. Its a weak argument. To my knowledge no state has outlawed hunting an apple tree, oak tree, cropfield, or even a food plot. Many have outlawed baiting. Keep up the posts, you are doing a good job of expanding the outlawing of bait.The sooner, the better.

What are you called if you become a really proficient, world class baiter? :) Jawge

George, I know. A MASTER.... Aw Never mind I forgot.JW

Jawge, that would be a master... hey, wait a minute!

ha, ha.

Good one.

And OSB, I started bowhunting over bait here in Texas back in 1979. Even as a 9 year old, I thought it wasn't real hunting and that it wasn't fair. As soon as I learned to read sign and do my deer homework, I left the bait behind. Glad I did too.

"Anti-bait?" Yea, I guess you could say that about me.

Just don't feel right.

Not sure why my opinion should rile anyone up unless they just let it. Do what you want. But don't expect anyone to be impressed by the deer you shoot over bait or behind a high fence.

It's all a slippery slope my friends. First it's bait, then it's timed feeders, then it's high fences, then it's electronic trail cameras, and now, you can even have a wireless trail cam send you pictures on your phone or computer!!! GEEZ! About the only thing left is to bottle feed your own Pope and Young buck and then go brag about it.

John.

[limbwalker - "now, you can even have a wireless trail cam send you pictures on your phone or computer!!!"]

Man I want me one of them !!!!!!

Probably can't afford it. My feed bill is outrageous. 8^P

i have and will continue to hunt a high fence if i like. i also hunt public land in east texas and south carolina and believe me the high fence deer are tougher too hunt. jealousy is what makes a lot of people hate the high fence. you still have to make a good shoot.

Ya gotta make a good shot on targets at 3d tournaments also, this is about hunting, not target shooting. Live animal targets, novel idea!

No seriously I don't have anything against high fence hunting, its a great way for guys who have no woodsman skills whatsoever to get deer meat.

I wonder why in KY it's legal to bait deer but not legal to bait turkeys? Is this true for other states?

Gundy, ditto.

OSB, individually, I agree with the "hunt and let hunt" philosophy. It's just that when you consider the collective "will" of the hunters out there, we're heading in the wrong direction IMO. Collectively, we are making things far too easy and losing far too many outdoor skills in the process. Once a single generation loses that skill, all that follow will likely never learn it.

I'm doing my best to pass this down to my children. Lessons about nature, wildlife habits and how to truly hunt game. What lessons are others passing down? Go buy your hunt? Why bother hunting if you can't bait? Unless it's a sure thing, you're just wasting your time? If there's no trophy to be hunted, then who cares? If someone else could kill the deer because it's not behind a fence, then I don't want to play...?

These are not the lessons that outdoorsmen should be passing along IMO.

BTW, I never remember Fred Bear shooting an animal on film over bait or behind a high fence. I wonder what he would say about this. He had guides, but I suspect he didn't really need them.

A man should be able to rely on his own skills in the woods and skills with a bow. Just as our ancestors did for 1000's of years. THAT's traditional if you ask me.

Something about hunting with traditional bows over bait or behind a high fence that just doesn't seem right to me. The irony is thick.

John.

Not legal to bait anything in Mt. Not many poeple really want to here anyway.

In Ok. Its legal for deer and not turkey.JW

Well said Limbwalker, very well said.

Limbwalker , not arguing with you but,our ancestors use to use fire to drive animals, run the off cliffs what ever it took to eat. So I believe they would have baited too. Probley no high fences though.LOL JW

In the early 90's I was planning my first elk hunt. I went and met a guy in my hometown who had been killing elk with a bow for years. We went down in his basement and he had a rocking chair full of whitetail racks (some very nice). I recall him saying that you can kill a big whitetail two ways, by hunting hard or you can buy one. I really didn't get what he ment until later. It's obvious now.

I should have noted that he earned his game with nearly all of his elk and deer coming from public land hunts.

I have hunted bears over bait and I have set apples out for deer(got sniffed out). I don't do it often for deer , I mostly try to find a trail and set up my treestand. I did try a spot and stalk on a doe last week but got busted by a buck before I could close the last ten yards to my shot range (had a blast, what a rush).

Was I less traditional when I sat over the bait for bear? for deer? I won't compare it to what my ancestors did thousands of years ago because I lost the family diary. I use a dacron string with an aluminium arrow on my Laminated Chek Mate. Does that me me non traditional. "Tradional" archery today seems to be a romantic version of how some people perceive the past

I would think (I don't know , like I said I lost the diary) my ancestors would have hunted anyway they could and likely would have baited if/when the chance arose. After all "traditional" archery was how they survived, it wasn't what they did for fun. I don't believe I have the right to tell people what is hunting or traditional.(I do give my opinion LOL)

I really don't see the difference between hunting a high fenced area that is 10000 acres when compared to small lots within an urban area. From some of the comments on here I would think many would not hunt near urban areas as the deer would not be wild. Are urban deer not rue deer ??? Man made obstructions and all as well as being sensitixed to humans.

I can respect the opinions of those who would not use bait IF they don't use attractants, don't hunt agricultural areas, don't have feed plots etc. Other than that they are hypocrites who chose to make their version of "traditional" or real hunting the only "true" version. We have enough of that in politics and religion in todays world.

I might enjoy hunting a large fenced area if the deer were not "tame" , not driving animals to the fence, etc. Then again I might not nut it would be my choice. I might learn something. I don`t believe in paying for points or those `managed`shot the points operations but they do serve a purpose for some people I might learn something, just not my thing.

I would encourage all those who say baiting is immoral, "not hunting" to come to Nova Scotia and hunt bear by spot and stalk. It's done but I bet many of you would give up many years in advance of your first bear. I salute those that would not and come up and visit us for ten years in a row.

I don`t believe in paying for points or those `managed`shot the points operations but they do serve a purpose for some people.

Bottom line is, as far as I'm concerned , shoot a stickbow (sight or no sights, rest or no rest), shoot sharp broadheads, take ethical shots at ethical distances and I'll be happy to hunt with you anywhere you want to go (legal areas). If you shoot a compound and follow the same rules I'll still hunt with you but I might make fun of you once in a while.

Stick and string bind us together, our versions of what OUR"truth" is tear at the string. Shoot what you like and Like what you shoot.

If its legal in your state and your OK with it...then go ahead. People like to interject their beliefs and opinions.

I dont do it, but I wont say I'll never do it.

It may be an advantage at times so yea, it could be considered cheating. But what about scents, calls, laminated bows, sights..you get the point.

If its legal and you want to do it ,,,then go ahead.

After all, most of us are eating what we kill (Im going hungry this year) If your feeding your family then it cant be a bad thing.

osb no ones forcing anything on anyone. We're all just stating our opinions, n you're argueing that our opinions are wrong. So who's trying to force their views on others?

As much time as everyone is spending complaining about how everyone else hunts i could have scouted the hundred acre woods.Who gives a damn?If you use corn good for you.If you hunt the hard way in your opinion that is great too.We are all hunters no matter how you go about it.I could care less how others hunt as long as you ain't bothering me.Oh,by the way i bait,and yes it is legal in NC.It gives me close, ethical shots at animals standing still and increases my chance of a good shot so i don't have to have a dog to track a gutshot deer.I hunt wild deer over acorn trees too and oh yes i use the poontang juice too during the rut.I do what i need to for the given situation if i want meat i hunt bait,if i am looking for bone i hunt trails and use pee, horns,or whatever it takes to kill him.I don't hunt for popularity points or to make friends i hunt to kill stuff.If we can't all just mind our business and get along then the hippies and liberals will eventually take our hunting rights because we can't decide what is more important,hunting or bitching about how everyone else hunts.If you want to hunt a pen then have fun with it,most of us can't afford it anyways.I don't want to hunt a pet but if you do more power to ya.I have never seen a deer mount that had corn hanging out of his mouth so i guess they do look the same mounted no matter how you kill it.Can't we all just get along??lol Ya'll have fun with this and don't skin my opinion too bad..Later,Chubby

The feeders are for the deer not the hunters. Places I have hunted here in Texas need the feeders because of low mast crops and natural food at certain times during the year. To many deer for the range conditions. The feeders are needed during those times! When there are plenty of mast crops/clover the deer wont bother with the corn much. After the first gun shots during squirle season they the/bucks get pretty nocturnal around the feeders or anywhere else for that matter. I just dont think bowhunters really have a big advantage hunting feeders, other than getting to see a lot of game/does coons rabbits squirle. Seeing game is one thing killing mature big bucks is another thing all togather. LOL! With a rifle and 200 yards from the feeder it may be a little more in your favor.Regardless the deer need to come off the range fot the next crop.

BBBBWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHH

"ignore the date on the camera taking pictures of deer I dont bait during season"

now THAT and this thread are hilarious.

I hunt a friends ranch in west Texas that is high fenced. I can tell you for a fact hunting in a 2- 12,000 acre inclosure is not an advantage. It lets the land owner better control his deer heard . If I dropped some of you in the middle of that place you would likely not find the fence. This ranch is larger than the county alot of you live in.

Ther's a lot of baiting happenin' right now. Right here. Fair to say a few holier than thous are typing up a storm. I'm home with a torn rotator. What's your excuse? Same thread? Same arguments? Same people? GO hunting. Or shooting. Quit baitin' one another. Just watched Primal Dreams. Wow! Okay girls, go at it. With all due respect.

"A man should be able to rely on his own skills in the woods and skills with a bow. Just as our ancestors did for 1000's of years. THAT's traditional if you ask me."

Limbwalker there will always be some that will even criticize your style as not being fair style of hunting. They will say your not equal to the ancestors way of hunting or hunting the hard way which you wish to imitate. Why? Because you live in the 21 st century. They could say how do you get to your hunting place. Oh you drove there in your pickup or suv. That's not fair you need to walk or go by horse to your hunting location to be on the same hunting plane as the Indians. Where did you get your equipment to hunt with. Oh Acadmey or Cabela. That not fair you need to make your own from the woods and land to be equal to the ancestors style. Etc, etc, etc.

You see what happening. The baiting argument will look like nothing after while. He who is without sin

Just my 2 cents

Chequamegon - Nicolet national forests where me a few friends used to hunt. Never had any problems gettin deer. Maybe theres not as many as in the 80's up there, but in the 80's deer weren't that hard to find up there.

"The baiting argument will look like nothing after while" No, it won't, more and more states are making it illegal.

R. Grider not in Texas. Selling corn in Texas to hunters to fill their feeders is a billion dollar business. More corn is sold to hunters than for any other purpose. If they decided to make baiting illegal in Tx the corn farmers and hunters would storm Austin and burn the Gov's Mansion ( again)

Texas us just different from most other states in many ways.

its OK I was KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this thread is absurd enough,maintained by people who have probably never shot anything-its not real life its the internet.I could give a flying fornication what anyone does or what they think of anything I do-I dont look to the internet for guidance.I think ya'll should try for 200 posts this has never been discussed on the LW before......

Guys, the term is CONIFEROUS, not cariforous.

And OSB, I'd still not use bait up there. When I was a teenager, I hunted the woods of New Hampshire with my bow, sometimes spending entire days hiking through snow in single digit temps. just for the chance to see a deer. Never shot one there, but I learned a lot and I can bet that if I'd spent enough seasons chasing deer there, I'd have figured out some strategies that work. There are lots of folks shooting deer with bows in the north woods. Please don't tell me all of them are hunting over bait.

"All we need now is one harsh winter with this stupid ban on feeding and that will be it - the deer will yard up and the wolves will finish off what the weather doesn't...

Makes one wonder how the deer ever survived before us humans were there to feed them. Guess they never had harsh winters back then... huh?

"It lets the land owner better control his deer heard..."

This is another problem I have with some Texas landowners.

Since when did the public's wildlife become the property of a single landowner? As soon as the high fences started going up, that's when. To put up a high fence and then have the state say it's still a public resources is probably the biggest joke in the business. At that point, no matter how big the pasture, it's livestock pure and simple. And it should be regulated as livestock.

My mother enjoys raising livestock. Some of the animals she has are deer. They live in a 1 acre pen across the road from her house. Just because they are deer doesn't mean they aren't livestock.

Go shoot livestock if you want. Just don't insult me and all the other hunters out there by saying you hunted them.

Doublelung, your point is well taken, and not lost on me.

John.

You know, whenever "general ethics" questions like this come up, I always fall back on what the average person on the street would say.

And I can guarantee you that if you asked the average person on the street to describe hunting, the words "bait" and "fences" would never be spoken.

John.

OK, you started your "rant" 4 days and 175 posts ago-are you satisfied yet? keep it TTT if you need the hot air up your skirt and the attention,all sides have been heard from.

4nolz, don't get your shorts in a wad. If you don't care for the thread, then why post and bring it back up?

Feel free to start your own "pro-baiting" thread if you want.

John.

.......any of you guys ever read any of the school days books from the library ..... the life of "Jim Coulter", "Daniel Boone", "Kit Carson", "Grizzly Adams", "Charbonoeu" (one-time husband of Sacajawea),"Davey Crocket", etc., etc., ..... they were all top of the line, early day trappers when North America was hardly discovered yet. They were also expert "baiters". These are the guys that "cut the trails" in North America. I'm pretty sure that if "the average person on the street" knew ANYTHING about ANY of these guys, it would be VERY little. oso

I couldn't sleep this morning so I sat and read all of these posts. With a few exceptions, I wonder how many of you guys actually hunt.

"I tried for two years hunting in Northern, Wisconsin without bait - and unless you enjoy sitting in a tree watching birds the vast majority of the time - it ain't much fun. Unless you can find a funnel or one of the rare oak groves, or get in a recent log off - you are not going to see deer - at least not in range - unless you are extremely lucky. If you are hunting public land - good luck getting into one of those spots."

Your joking, right?

Thats too bad osb, its used to be great hunting up there. Yeah wolves weren't a factor back then. We hunted north of Drummond and yes there were clearcuts up that way. Back in the 80's we'd see sometimes 20+ deer a day.

I hunt on the Michigan side of that area, big woods, remote as it gets in Michigan. I'm not hunting "on call", but I don't have much trouble getting in front of deer.

As an aside, I don't think baiting and high fence hunting are even closely related....baiting is a technique that may or may not work.....high fence "hunting" is basically shooting farm animals.

"And I can guarantee you that if you asked the average person on the street to describe hunting, the words "bait" and "fences" would never be spoken."

Have you ever watched Leno or Letterman that have sometimes gone out and asked average people on the street simple questions that we all should have learned in middle school? If you are relying on the average, everyday person on the street to define hunting or vote for elected officials, we are all in deep, deep trouble ... well, wait a minute, ...

"Since when did the public's wildlife become the property of a single landowner? As soon as the high fences started going up, that's when. To put up a high fence and then have the state say it's still a public resources is probably the biggest joke in the business. At that point, no matter how big the pasture, it's livestock pure and simple. And it should be regulated as livestock.

My mother enjoys raising livestock. Some of the animals she has are deer. They live in a 1 acre pen across the road from her house. Just because they are deer doesn't mean they aren't livestock"

Limbwalker fencing property that contains wildlife that is suppose to belong to all is the most sound reason to get rid of HF. Havind said that.....I've issued this challenge before with no takers...If all fenced game animals are livestock pure and simple (your words) and livestock is extremely easy to get close to......would you except my challenge?

I put you on a ranch of my choice, HF that is. You have a whole week to kill a muture buck....3.5 years or older...antler size who cares just 3.5 or older. Bow only. Any legal means is ok, including bait. You kill, i pay for the hunt. you no kill, YOU pay for the hunt AND I get a donation equal to the cost of the hunt. This ranch will be full of deer with plenty of mature bucks.

I love the HF basher that say its not hunting. They puff out there chest (the size of watermelons) as they type on the keyboard but when I throw out the challenge there kahuntas shrink to the size of peanuts. Lets be clear now...If someone challenge me to go kill a livestock behind a fence I'd take it if I thought it was a slam dunk...especially if I was bashing it. For the life of me I can't figure out why NOBODY has BALLS anymore. If its that easy, not hunting, not fair chase and livestock...lets do it!

I don't hunt behind HF's. I don't bait. But facts are facts and opinions are opinions. There's SOOOOO many more better reasons to want to get rid of HF than the "its not hunting crap"

I think it's perfectly acceptable for some to bait in a high fenced area of small proportions.. But just for instinctive shooters...they need all the help they can get!!

Limbwalker, sir. Is baiting unethical? Is hunting bears with dogs unethical? How about hunting mountain lions with hounds? Unethical? Not trying to extenuate an already laborious thread, just try to get a feeling where your coming from. You seem to enjoy the fracturing of a bowhunting community. That sounds harsh, and I apologise in advance. Not sure how else to communicate what I'm seeing. The others responding I'm not so sure about. Surely you see the need for an ability for some to put deer in front of them. No, the need for management includes the seasons along with the gun season. Make this an intellectual discussion. Not an emotional one.

Longbowman --- Let me know if you and limbwalker shake on that bet. This is a great opportunity to get a free high dollar hunt and prove that high fence is easy. Triple the cost if you draw blood but no harvest. Turn about is fair play. Good luck to all. oso

"would you except my challenge..."

Yes, I do take 'exception' to your challenge... ha, ha.

I think the word you were looking for was "accept."

And no, I have no desire to go kill a 3.5 yr or older buck behind a high fence just to prove something to you. Fact is, I can't afford to lose a bet like that, so I'd never take it in the first place. I have kids that are about to start college. Obviously you could afford to lose that kind of a bet, so good for you. Not sure why I'd only get a week though. Give me all season, and I think I may reconsider... At least on the low fence, no bait public land I hunt, I have all year long to scout, and that's exactly what I do.

Heck, how many game feeders are on that high fenced area? Probably dozens. How do you expect a guy to pattern a deer in natural terrain when they are coming to game feeders at night?

Robo, your last post is an instant classic. LMFAO man. You nailed it to a "T".

I drive I-10 all the time now and I see 4WD crew cab diesel pickup one after the next heading west to game farms, loaded with coolers, ATV's feeders and hundreds of pounds of corn.

Yea, that's hunting alright...

John.

high fences are NOT the same as baiting, IMHO. have read about The Sanctuary up in michigan i believe. its bigger than some mgt areas, & the guys working there have pix & sheds from deer they NEVER SEE except on trail cameras. dang things die of old age, just like in the wild. no, they may not be able to "escape", but just try to corner one of them. :^) big appeal is large healthy deer, & no da#n fools riding ATVs or going around gates in their 4WD to ruin someone elses hunt. i can understand that, just can't afford it. (nor would i if i could, got kids ya know) don't know if i would let them in record books though. aint thought that part through... pondscum

Taked from the Sanctuary web site..."

In keeping with our long-standing policy, we will refund 50% of the cost of the hunt to any guest who chooses not to, or fails to, harvest a Gold Medal buck. That’s how confident we are that you will find your dream buck in this, the ultimate destination for the whitetail connoisseur.

All Gold Medal Hunts are five-day, 1x1 guided adventures.

Prices for Gold Medal Hunts range from $8,500 - $17,500, depending solely upon the dates chosen within the season."

"Heck, how many game feeders are on that high fenced area? Probably dozens. How do you expect a guy to pattern a deer in natural terrain when they are coming to game feeders at night? "

Pattern a deer? You kiddin me? There "livestock" according to you. A whole week to kill a livestock...PLENTY of time.

Not big on high fences, but dont see the diffence in planting food plots and corn feeders.

If I had the disposable income to gamble, you can bet it would be on... ;o)

No, high fences aren't the same as baiting. Two seperate issues for the most part. And while I do agree that a large enough fenced area can allow deer to move more naturally, the question I keep coming back to is this: Who does the fence benefit?

Certainly not the deer.

Also, I don't think I've ever once seen a high fenced area of ANY size that doesn't bait. Usually, there are feeders ALL OVER the area. There may be high fenced areas that don't feed the deer, but I seriously doubt it, and I don't know where they would be...

Oh, and Longboman, put that deer pen in the eastern forest, and my odds go way, way up. Nobody patterns whitetails in the brush country...

John.

If I had the disposable income to gamble, you can bet it would be on... ;o)

No, high fences aren't the same as baiting. Two seperate issues for the most part. And while I do agree that a large enough fenced area can allow deer to move more naturally, the question I keep coming back to is this: Who does the fence benefit?

Certainly not the deer.

Also, I don't think I've ever once seen a high fenced area of ANY size that doesn't bait. Usually, there are feeders ALL OVER the area. There may be high fenced areas that don't feed the deer, but I seriously doubt it, and I don't know where they would be...

Oh, and Longboman, put that deer pen in the eastern forest, and my odds go way, way up. Nobody patterns whitetails in the brush country...

John.

So let me see if I have this right. We have guys out there who challenge themselves by using traditional bows instead of compounds or now crossbows, only to hunt over bait or behind a high fence...

I just can't get my mind wrapped around this one.

Sorry.

John.

Stan, You posted another uncalled for post putting down instinctive/gap/etc., shooters. What's with you ???

Actually if you shoot instinctively you are not using all the help you can get. Because you don't need it. I really wonder how traditional this site is sometimes when many of the posts seem to sneer at traditional methods and equipment. Funny in a way.

As far as this thread goes those of us who hunt (dare I say it?) the hard way are wasting our time trying to change the minds of those who want it easy. The comments about "doing the macho" are funny though and sadly on target. But don't waste your breath on them. The master baiters have spoken and let them have their corn, fences and deercain. The sport suffers because of it but to some its all about "them bones" on the wall.

LaHawkeye... Just having a little fun buddy.... I shoot selfbows and shoot very instinctive..Also believe you only have to please the person looking back at you in the mirror.. If it's legal, it's ok... BUT..... There are distinct differences in high fence- baiting- and actually hunting.. Some here wouldn't admit that if ya were holding a gun on them.....lol

I hunted the NF lands for over 20 yrs. When I first started, I hunted oak ridges. As time and logging went on, we lost most all of the oaks. Yea, I know there's laws that say that loggers can't cut but so far from a natural creek, BS. I'm beginning to see just what west Texas has to contend with as far as consentrated food sources for deer, there are hardly any left. In all my days of deer hunting, I've never seen a single deer eat a pine cone. Heck, we hardly have any trees left to hang a stand on. I invite anyone that don't believe in "baiting" to come hunt my pine thickets. This is my take on corn feeders, we used to be able to hunt the way it was meant to be. The damn paper companies, Gov't and lumber companies have forced us to change from the way we used to hunt. There's always been browse for the deer. We hunted oaks, cause it was a food source that deer consentrated to. Whats the difference in using a feeder, beings we don't hardly have any oaks left? Now, as far as high fences go, to each his own. Bout the only thing that I've ever killed in a high fence was hogs that we had trapped and sold hunts to. I have cousin that has gone up north, picked a deer from a small kennel and then they turn the deer out in an 80 acre pen. He goes out and shoots the dang thing and thinks he's done something. I love to tell people the real story behind those big deer and watch their faces.

Yes, I agree Stan. The most distinct difference is harvest ratio. If we depended on all bowhunters to harvest only by the purest means of stalking, tracking, etc., etc., ........we'd all be shoo-ing them off the front porch so's we could get to the mailbox. oso

Limbwalker --- ....man,.....take a break. ......come on down to west tx. and I'll fix you up with public land, private land, high fence, low fence, no fence, sorry-ass fence, sorta fence, ridiculous baited, sorta baited, nature baited, un-baited (starvin') ....or whatever your fancy is.. You need to unwind and chill. Try out some of that Texas hospitality that youre' always hearin' about. You'll like it. oso

My point, oso. Is baiting ethical? No response. I used to have a problem with running bears with dogs. Have a friend who was head of Michigan Bear Hunters. Offered to let me run behind and chase. I never got the chance. If they were too dependant on baiters for management purposes, we'd be overrun with bears in the upper portion of the state. Must use all legal resources to maintain numbers. Hold your nose if you must. Maybe your tongue as well. Just because you've brought in deer with bait doesn't mean you'll make the shot. Whatever way that deer comes in, you are still under stress to make the shot. Limbwalker, I appreciate your many knowledgeable posts. Many, including I would be saddened by your lack of participation. Yet, you are opinionated and stolid. So am I in many ways. Sometimes your interjections are a bit tainted with self and superiority. Take time to become old and sage.

"As far as this thread goes those of us who hunt (dare I say it?) the hard way are wasting our time trying to change the minds of those who want it easy. The comments about "doing the macho" are funny though and sadly on target. But don't waste your breath on them. The master baiters have spoken and let them have their corn, fences and deercain. The sport suffers because of it but to some its all about "them bones" on the wall."

Not true. I have cut, seasoned, made and hunted with selfbows for 15 years, made my own arrows and quivers in that time. No high fences and on my place and no feeders (friends lease yes feeders). I'm cheating now for I have quit making selfbows and now have a wonderfull Mohawk longbow to hunt with (glass) but still make all my other stuff.

I defend the baiters and those that hunt behind a HF cause I guess I'm SECURE in my self and beliefs...and getting older like was said above. ANYBODY hunting over bait or behind a HF is NOT BOTHERING ME. I don't need to come here and pout how there not hunting... and I am. There are FEW who hunt my way...and thats the way I like it....I DON'T want EVERYONE doing it my way. I have three boys. We hunted my freinds place last year (Seymour Tx , feeders) They know its just killing when we go there. They also know when we go to our place its "hunting" time. My youngest gut shot a doe with a gun on my buds place last year. When the "texans" (my friends) gave up on the deer, my three boys 17, 13, and 11 tract that deer 1/4 mile to the property line with only green gut contents here and there to fallow. we never got the deer but i was proud as hell of them for there effort. The best trackers I've seen yet in Tx! My point? All these "hunting skills" some rave about...aint got crap on me or mine...I just laugh!! But I don't judge others either for their way of "hunting"

I wonder what the hell some of you would say face to face to a dying kid who's last wish was to go hunting in the summer (high fence) for exotics. That would be worth paying for.

Just kill em how ya want too guys.They do taste better full of corn rather than raggedy ass old wild onions and grass though!!

Bowhunting in most states is purely recreational. The gun hunters are the ones who kill high enough numbers for management purposes. So your not gonna see anything overrun by deer because of bowhunters killing or not killing.

I see the same thing in other areas, its not just hunting. In video game even the kids parents buy em books that have cheat codes in em so they can beat the game without having to meet the challenge. Its the " I want it NOW" society. As for traditional, its a bragging point or alot of the guys wouldn't be shooting stickbows.sorry,jmho

The more post I see concerning "hunting" in Texas, the less desire I have to hunt Texas. Definately no longer on my "To Do" list.

R.grider, you can be sure the native texans could care less how you or anybody else for that matter feel, about their way of hunting. I know, I've seen it for 20 years now. The more they get bashed the more bait they put down...and beer. Laughing all the way to the box blind. Serious. While the rest of the country is getting their panties in a wad over the way Texans hunt, their having a good time and not loosing one wink of sleep over anybody's feeling! Even Limbwalker would agree to that lol.

What so ironical about this post is that the Texas Indians hunted using traditional and primitive equipment because that is all they had. They hunted the hard way. When the white man introduced them to guns they said the hell with these bows give me that Winchester and they never looked back. Had Cabela been around they would have bought every dam gadget they had in the store. They looked at it from I want to make hunting easy not hard. We been hunting the hard way to long.

I hunt the hard way because I enjoy it, If you don't, spend you're kids college,lifes savings, and mortgage you're home to buy corn. Suits me, but I'll not get the least bit exited about a photo,video, or story about Texas Success. I can go to the stockyard, buy a steer and shoot it, faster,easier and cheaper.

grider .....

Where exactly are you...? i.e., what state? Give us Texas guys a chance. Youve' got a mad on about more than just baiting, etc. What's up? Did Texas molest you when you were a young child? Steal your lunch money? Talk bad about your Momma? Tell me how and we'll make it up to you. Your pain is too great. Let's start the healing now. How about one of those wk end retreats where you explore all your past transgressions, trials and tribulations that you were forced to endure as a youngster. Let's clean out that psychic bucket of pain. Purge yourself. We can put together a workshop of healing and restoration of your self worth.

Texas hospitality at it's best. Give us a chance. oso

Now that post was plum scary ! I'd just as soon not get together and meditate, with you or whatever you have in mind ! Just don't like the idea of baiting, thats all. Don't ask my opinion, ask that of any trained wildlife biologist. None of them are going to get turned on in a positive way about baiting.I tend to trust the judement of trained biologists that earn there living studying and knowing wildlife, over that of someone who just wants an easy way of filling tags, and brag photos/videos/mounts.That "its not easy" argument don't wash, maybe not easy, but definately easier, no doubt, no argument.As I stated before, "I baited with lots of success when I first started bowhunting," I know the results, i've done it, you can't fool me !I stopped the practice after lots of studying it, and some of the negatives it brings about. (disease transmission,unsightly baiting stations, my own guilty conscience). If you want to bait, and its legal, go for it, but anything a baiter posts up is very suspect to me.That just hurts you're own credibility. I have seen those that post in defense of baiting, and if anything this is a good tool for me of finding out who I would, or would not hunt with. High fence operations don't bother me as much as the baiting, other than most if not all bait inside of the high fence. My home state (kentucky) has not yet outlawed baiting deer on private land, but it is illegal on public land, and everywhere for turkeys. Wonder why? I'm a farmer, and if someone wants to stock animals inside a fenced enclosure, for other folks to kill, i'm not out to get them, its no different than stocking cattle, they are doomed to die to feed someone, but to kill one of these penned exotics, and boast about it? A picture of an angus steer with a "hunter" holding his head up smiling is no different to me than a pope and young buck taken the same way. Cheese away into the camera, you will just look like an idiot.

[B]Guess I'm on my "soap box" these days (ask Elk ;O)) But how many else here are truly sickened by the proliferation of high fence "hunting" and baiting in the bowhunting crowd? Even traditional bowhunters are becoming more and more accepting of these practices! I can't believe it! I'm not that old, but it seems like very few (and getting fewer) bowhunters want to work for anything anymore.

If my only options were to hunt behind a high fence or over a pile of corn, then I guess I'd just go play golf instead. At least traditions are still respected in that sport.

I thank God and pray as often as I can for the few public bowhunting areas here in Texas that do not allow baiting and are populated with truly wild animals. I'd rather take 1 doe from an area like that than a pile of "trophy" bucks from behind a fence or under a feeder.

Anyone else feel the same way?

John.[/B]

I'm going to start by saying I don't have an opinion on fences or bait or rather I should say that is that I'd not be hunting small confined few acre fenced areas anytime soon, but I don't know that I'll NEVER hunt a small area. I'm baiting pigs on my three acres right now just to see if they will come in. If they do, I may plant yams or something to attract them just for fun... and then whack one of them just for fun. No fences... but just for... hunting... yes...!!

There are no real fenced in hunting in Hawaii that I'm aware of, but we have some "small islands" where hunting is allowed. Kodiak Island and other small Islands, some in Canada and New Foundland, limit an animals travel in a very real way. I suppose we should pretty much stop that type of hunting in Hawaii as well any "island" hunting spot.

Bait? Hmmmmm I shot my bear over bait and will be going back to another "bait" hunt next year. Let's see.... Africa is a zillion miles big, but dang... they sure shoot alot of bowhunted animals there... and they don't use bait... Oh... waterholes... maybe the only one in a 100 miles.. and does anyone comment about that? Hmmmmmmmm.....

Ok... now lets turn to who the heck are anyone to condemn someone else? do I shoot fish in a barrel? No. Do others? Yes!. I've been excoriated for my position on shooting carp... mostly considered a rubbish fish and not worthy of consideration. In fact, I was pointedly asked, if I shot a bretheren rat, would I be concerned about it welfare.. I don't like animal suffering regardless and especially not DELIBERATELY INFLICTED... however, that is not the issue here is it.

When is an island not a fence? When is a fence a fence. If I'm not mistaken, there is a group or actually maybe several groups here who routinely hunt at 1200-2000 acre FENCED HUNTING SPOTS that are hunting not only fenced... but at FEEDERS TOO! Are you saying that these should be torn down? Or are you saying that a fence that is 20,000 acres is Ok and 2000 is not? How about 200?

Just because you don't like pornography doesn't mean that it hasn't created Billion Dollar indussties that don't appeal to YOU.

The Feds and the ENVIORONMENTALISTS here in Hawaii are trying to eradicate every living ungulate here. They have thousands of miles of fences. They bring in or let hunters come in with their dogs to hunt these FENCED areas and guess what. They don't get all the pigs and get tired of hunting with no result and so the Feds come in with THOUSANDS OF SNARES in order to "finish" the job. What does that TELL you? It tells me that if an animal is WILD, it can get lost in hundreds of acres.

Do I hunt Fences... no. Do I condemn those that do? No. What's the problem here for YOU that others want to hunt with less effort than you do? Are you hunting for them or for yourself? I hunt strictly Longbow and wood. Strictly feathers and am turning to SELF nocks on my arrows. Someday I'll probably make my own broadhead... but What do YOU Shoot? What business is it of mine anyway? ITS NONE OF MY DANG BUSINESS what YOU do. If you don't like it, don't you have the "choice" to not do it? Like pornography, change the channel, webpage, or bookstore.

That YOU don't like fences is YOUR business. We think ALIKE, on this issue. I don't like fences either, however, I'm not sure I'm ready to CONDEMN anyone who does.

Aloha....

I guess I should ad, no offense Texas, But too many post assure me over and over thats the only way to hunt in Texas, thats why I have no desire to hunt Texas. I just wonder, I guess the american indian never inhabited Texas, or there was a grainery somewhere that sold them baiting corn. I'll research that.

ummm.........Grider..........Isnt Limbwalker from Texas?

"ummm.........Grider..........Isnt Limbwalker from Texas? " What is you're point?

Where does fair chase start, and where does it end IN YOUR OPINIONS?

Aloha...

Longbo, you're right about that one. Most, if not all, Texans couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about them.

And this is exactly why so many Texans act the way they do. A ten year break from my home state has given me some perspective for sure. We Texans could use some of the Midwestern values and sensibilities that I've seen since...

Swamp, I make no apolgies for being myself. And if I were the only hard-headed, opinionated person on this forum, I'd think you have a point... LOL! ;O)

"What's the problem here for YOU that others want to hunt with less effort than you do?"

Let me try to explain myself. It's NOT a problem for me if someone wants to kill something with less effort. That's what livestock, feeding and fences are for. What I have a problem with is defining that as "hunting". To me, that's a bit of an insult to folks who really continue the tradition of hunting.

And believe me, we're going to lose that tradition as we know it within our lifetimes if we're not careful...

We all need to be concerned about our image as hunters to the non-hunting public. This "middle ground" majority will decide our futures. And high fences and bait DEFINITELY doesn't help our cause with this group. Might even be enough cause to turn a percentage of them against us, and we simply cannot afford that. This is my bigger concern.

John.

"What I have a problem with is defining that as "hunting". To me, that's a bit of an insult to folks who really continue the tradition of hunting."

Limbwalker, like I posted in a prior post above,many will see the above statement as hypocritical. If you drove to the hunting area in a 21st century automobile and got out with your store bought equipment and then decided to imitate the hard way of hunting like our native Indians did in Texas then most of those native Indians would not consider you as hunting the hard way and their argument against you would be equal to your argument against baiting. They would not defined your style as hunting.

Can you see that your are not really in the unique category that you talk about. You would have to be equal in all aspects of how the Indians hunted here in Texas other wise your hunting style has just some similarity to theirs. Moreover many here do not wish to be explained to what hunting really is or is not. Many feel this is very condescending. Yes what you state is your opinion and how you feel about baiting and high fences but you are pushing it when you respond to those that hunt their way that their style is not hunting.

I say be a good fellow and avoid any more posting. You made your point and many here respect your position while others do not. I feel there is no need to keep this going any further. I posted twice and this one makes three. I will not post any more responses concerning your thread.

DL, when I talk about the tradition of hunting, I am referring to the traditions of hunting in the U.S. in modern times. The traditions of sportsmen who came before us that enjoyed the challenge of hunting wild game.

And I'm simply stating my opinion, as are you. I find it humorous that you think I need to "avoid any more posting" after you've made your point... We're each entitled to our opinions.

John.

Helpless in, or because of deep snow, or helpless on ice. While swimming. Helpless in a trap. While confined behind fences as on farms, etc. In defiance of game laws or out of season. By "Jacklighting" or shining at night. From any power vehicle or boat. By use of any power vehicle for herding or driving any animals, including the use of aircraft for landing alongside of any animal or herd, or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. By the use of any tranquilizers, poisons or anything else deemed unsportsmanlike.

I'm not sure what part of the rules of fair chase are hard to understand. Silly bowhuners have used those for over 100 years. Its funny guys wanna shoot traditional equipment, call themselves traditional hunters, but only stick to traditional values when it is convenient. Guess the difference between killing and hunting went by the wayside along with the rules of fair chase.

Funny every record book in the united states (except those few that are only for game farms so those guys can brag) and most major bowhunting organizations still say the rules of fair chase must be followed if your animal is to be recognized. I don't care how you kill your game as long as its legal, but don't call it bowhunting or even hunting. Its just killing. Just like I don't care about crossbows, but I don't call that bowhunting either.

John(limbwalker), I believe the those here in lower Mi, hunting pressured whitails, purposefully hunting with longbows and recurves, aren't doing it to limit themselves. They do 'cause they like shooting that type of equipment. And a majority of those guys throwing down 1-2 gallons of corn a week in some area where they can get to quickly after work, hunt that way because they have no time. Who has the time to spend scouting daily whatever. If you have young ones, you spend that quality time home. This forum has more Fred Bears and the like than I'd ever imagine. Here we go, the lineup of guys being proud to be in such company. Fine. Pretend you live in that era. Quick pretending and spend some time at home. Maybe your kids will remember what you look like. At least without blackface. What a bunch of whiners.

Hi Buck.... I agree with you about fair chase. I live on an island. Is that fair chase compared to a 30,000 acre high fence? is 46 square miles. High fences are mostly from MY UNDERSTANDING for exotics but nonetheless, inside the fence in many places could very well still be untouched...

To me, if I have to hunt for the animal, I'm ok with it from the standpoint of fair chase. We don't have high fences in Hawaii, but we do have fences, all over the place. 30,000 acre ranches have fences all around them, although the older ones are full of holes and animals can move back and forth, they pretty much are enclosed and are hunted as if free roaming pretty much because you have to go look for them.... albeit sometimes by Ford F350 King Cab... :)

Aloha... Tom

I hate post like these because a few guys who believe their way of hunting makes them a better person or hunter than say a guy who uses a feeder,foodplot,trail camera rifle,compound,or anything else different then they use. I love Trad Archery I shot daily year around it helps me deal with the stress from work and the day to day grind of life.I hunt with Trad gear because I enjoy it period. I guess if I sit on a feeder time to time or use a trail camera which all my family/friends hunters/non hunters gather around the computar and enjoy viewing the pictures of all types of critters followed up by a wildgame dinner that may have been shot at a feeder we will all be going to hell for doing such things? When I show up at your house and tell you how you are living you life wrong, you need to raise your kids my way, live your life my way,spend your money my way, because my way is the best way how are you going to feel. There are things I won't do myself but if others choose to do so and they aren't breaking any laws so be it.

I love, and long for the "DREAM" of being able to go roaming around, scouting out places to hunt, places to put in a good set, and just simply enjoying my surroundings, and am very capable of doing it successfully, if success is measured only by animals taken.

The sad truth is - where (I, and countless others) live, such things are just that "A DREAM", and in order to hunt our areas, we are bound (if we want to see a deer or turkey or whatever) to using the hunting tactics of our surrounding neighbors.

I am with John (Limbwalker) in that - I wish I could "reasonably" find areas to hunt, that either public or private are large enough to be able to hunt by matching my wit only against the animals I am after. This is not the case for many. Such areas are either so expensive to hunt on that the average Joe can't afford it, or are so far away you have to make plans months in advance, and save lots of cash to be able to do it.

I am a hunter. It is a part of my character, and as much a part of me as my heart. It is a way of life, that I am not willing to give up, or set aside due to given levels of difficulty. I adapt to what I am offered, and "I Hunt".

"Those of you who live in, or close to areas where you have lots of free space to roam, and hunt, and are rich with game should consider yourselves very fortunate."

"Those of you who have such good fortune, should be (ashamed of yourselves) for ridiculing the tactics of those who are not so fortunate."

"Those of you who fall into the category of (maliciously spreading ridicule), need a good dose of (Other Folks Reality), and the tunes you are singing would soon change dramatically."

This is really starting to be real comical. You have some stating that they've done a lot of studying on baiting, when in reality, the state of Texas has probably allowed "baiting" longer than these people have lived. If all the biologist that have the answers and claim to be so detrimental to deer population, then why hasn't it been made illegal in all these states that it's legal in. I can only imagine how many deer Texas would have if they would de-legalize it then. I've hunted Ne. 6 times and have killed deer in corn fields, I guess thats a form of baiting too then. But then, I hadn't found any dead deer in the woods killed from eating that corn either. For all of those against baiting, I guess it would be unethical of me to rake up the acorns from my yard and put them around my stand and shoot a deer that comes in to eat them too.

I understand where John's coming from on this issue. I have no interest in shooting fish in a bucket. I also understand James' point of view namely "Why is it you can not enjoy yourself without always worrying about what someone else does?". I suspect that being a federal wildlife agent provides a bit of bias to John in his view. Not being a fed. provides the bias the other way. Many Americans work a large part of their life to gain and maintain property to have a place to hunt. They provide habitat and even participate in federally funded programs that involve cover and food.When they are dead and buried the land remains. I plant oak trees. Many I planted over twenty years ago provide mast for the deer that have moved back onto my land. Not one penny of federal money goes to support my effort. Millions go to maintain the federal management system including the salary and pension of folks like John. I have no qualms with that.Our federally managed land is a collective national treasure and applaud John's efforts in preserving them. I do take issue with one who from that position wishes to "rant", your owns words John, about what others choose to do with their private property simply to avoid the federal managers. The feds, last I checked, regularly stock non-native trout in federalized rivers strictly for the purpose of recreational trout fishing.I prefer the Liberty to make my own choices within the law. If that means opting out of the federal management system, so be it.

Curious how many of you are matching wits with animals in areas of high concentrations of hunters. Are we trying to scare off the new hunters and archers because they're not hunting the right way? Haven't had the time or taken the time to learn the "right" way. If you answer yes, as a whole we'd do a lot better without that perspective. We need the new people. Show them what you deem to be the proper way. We can hardly do without the new blood. I believe year after year there are less and less hunters. Can we do without the new people? Can we?

I don't fish or hunt federal property anymore. They drove me away.

The Feds are driving LOTS of people away from hunting. They are generally not on your side in many issues. Here in Hawaii, they are actually trying to ERADICATE hunting.. via your game.

Aloha...