I just read the Heavy Heart thread. I remember the days of hooking the left foot around the tree and leaning out WAY past the stand to make the shot. This behavior was way past stupid.

I have a harness, FREE to anyone that has loved ones that they need to come home to.

-Joe

Joe..............

Very generous offer and you are correct, everyong needs to wear a safety harness, we were young and stupid years ago but I don't think I would bounce as high as I did when I was young and bullet-proof. This is my first year to wear a full harness and I will never go up with out hooking up again. My huntin buddy fell 8 feet at work and after 8 days in the hospital and two surgeries he is looking at 6 months rehab before he can be re-evaluated to go back to work.

Hey Joe, Thank you for your generous offer, and I hope someone takes you up on it. It is frustrating as to why hunters who sit up 10 plus ft think they don't need to be hooked in. The attitude is it's always someone else and unfortunately thats not the case. Thanks agian for your offer.

I don't think the main problem is leaning forward with your foot around the tree, it is falling asleep. I do all kinds of things that are risky that require split second timing, or some minor physical prowess. But I am driving the bus. Fall asleep on a stool up a tree, bad news.

Full body harnesses aren't for me, a belt is all I need, particularly for leaning out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leCAy1v1fnI

A belt is great for steadying yourself for a shot, but if you slip and fall, the belt is bad news. Just a couple years ago, a hunter , was wearing just a belt, he slip on his stand he couldn't regain his footing and they found him, the belt along with his weight constricted, where he couldn't breath, forcing his blood to pool, which was fatal.

If nobody believes me, have two -three buddies, around you to help you. stand on a step ladder, have the belt attached to a tree as if you were 10-15 feet, but only enough where your feet will not touch the ground, then have them remove the step ladder, but be ready to help you when needed, see how long you can hang by just a belt. I can assure you that you will be yelling for them to get you down within a few minutes.

I use to use just a belt, but not anymore.

Fall out and hang with a belt on and you're likely to suffocate.

Bowlim,

"Full body harnesses aren't for me, a belt is all I need, particularly for leaning out."

So you're the exception to studied experiencences, right?

"I do all kinds of things that are risky that require split second timing, or some minor physical prowess."

Putting your life in the balance, may seem exciting to you, however, should you not die in the fall, hindsight will torment you the balance of your lifetime.

The saying, "young and foolish", had to come from somewhere.

I think that your gesture is outstanding...somewhere out there is someone that cant afford one.....good on you

I have had two friends fall from their tree stands and both were wise old bowhunters who had been around the sport for decades.

One remains hobbled today because of broken ribs, broken shoulder, broken wrist and on and on.

The other is in worse shape: they thought he was a goner but after months of surgeries, he survives to hunt but not like he used to.

Those two were the lucky ones.

Heck I have a bunch of belts if anyone needs em. CDS for me

I agree with of what Baysaph said, but only with 1/2 of what he is saying, don't have anymore belts, but agree 100% with CDS!

My advice is leave the booze at home... That may not be anyone here, but it sure as heck is people in hunting in general. If you fell out of a tree and did not get back to the ground, I want a blood alcohol test before buying any nonsense about it being the belts fault.

Ok, so here are 99% of the accidents, you start to doze off, or you loose your balance standing up, and you feel the tie, and startle back awake or steady yourself, end of story. Probably a lot of these would have been OK with nothing, but they are sure to be OK with any kind of tether.

Ok so what is going to happen when you fall asleep in a tree wearing a belt? You are on a tight line you fall over sideways and wake up suspended at the same height as the stand, possibly partly on it. You roll back on. That is .9% of the accidents. Or 99.9% total.

Ok, so lets say the fabulous high tech stand you are using, inexplicably collapses and you end up hanging freely in the air, against the tree, and near your steps. You just climb back on, and sort it out. That is .09% of the accidents.

OK, here is either the BS version or the Darwin awards version, for a whopping .01%. You fall, or whatever and end up suspended in the middle of nowhere, not having made any proper preparations. You are not going to be able to go down, and you are going to hang there till snowmobiles come by in a few months time. You are dead regardless of whatever harness you choose, it will take a lot less time to die in a belt, but in a belt, with the tie in at waist height, and the ability to roll it to the front, you have a far better plan B. Full body harnesses high back tie ins are only safe if there are people around, and they can actually lower you. As in construction with a crane tether, etc...

I have taken 30 foot screamers onto a waist tie in, and I didn't even know it was there. But try and hang yourself from it, it is agony. I don't think they are appropriate for weak people. Maybe if you can't do even one pull up. But for reasonably healthy people with a plan B, they are safer than construction harnesses designed for a high back tie in, and for enviros where there is a rescue immediately at hand.

All I've ever used is a belt...BUT..I snug it up so I CAN'T fall out! I don't want that much slack in ANY fall restraint system! If you CAN'T actually fall....you won't be hanging from ANYTHING!

All I've ever used is a belt...BUT..I snug it up so I CAN'T fall out! I don't want that much slack in ANY fall restraint system! If you CAN'T actually fall....you won't be hanging from ANYTHING!

With the CDS Harness , you can lean out and still have restraint, depends on how you hook up, I want to be able to move in my treestand, without the worry of falling, and be able to shoot in more directions than just one. I hope I never have to use the CDS harness, but knowing I have it on, takes the worry about a slip or fall, and at my age I wouldn't bounce like I did 45 years ago, if I do fall, and can't get back into my treestand then I can repel down. It only takes a spilt second for something to happen, one last question? How much value do you put on your life?

Bowlim, a belt is better than nothing but I think you should listen to Old crow, Babysaph,etc... they know what they're talking about, if not for yourself, do it for the ones you hunt with and your family, they won't worry about you while you hunt if you're protected well. I don't know how old you are but I think the older you get the more you need a good harness. Many things can happen when you're up in a tree. Den

Take a look at "A Heavy Heart" thread, I'm sure that hunter wasn't expecting a fall, and leaving two small children and a wife without a father ,and husband, no deer is worth that!

"Bowlim, a belt is better than nothing but I think you should listen to Old crow, Babysaph,etc... they know what they're talking about"

I've been a rock climber since 72, though I am no longer active, I still design equipment for it, non-commerically. Back in the early 70s we made our own full body harnesses, we bought a chest harness and sewed the lower part on home sewing machines. One of my friends at the time was Helmut Microys, who sat on the UIAA technical committee, we got a good insight into the whole climbing testing and technical thing. One of the reasons we wanted full body harnesses, was to create a tension in the spine, to avoid compression problems. But the history of climbing since then indicates that concern to be pretty minimal.

At one point some fancy new, and expensive harnesses came out, and I decided to give full body harnesses another try. I was almost killed when the harness buckle disengaged while rappelling. These days, pretty much everyone uses a commercial sit harness in climbing, they have been pretty much perfected. But I know better than to just fall in line with the commercial BS. It's your life you owe it to yourself to apply some thought to the situation, and the old methods are actually fool proof and simple. And the commercial climbing gear, for climbing, is a lot better thought out than any of the other stuff out there. And that was true back in the 70s let alone now.

I know the technology in this field inside out, and regrettably, probably because more hunters are near construction than climbing, we have been sold the wrong stuff for safety. Better than nothing, but a long way to go... They used to sell the belts, only a few years ago. According to all you guys those things are unsafe. Well guess what, so are the harnesses.

Or, I suppose the harnesses are perfectly safe if you don't end up in the .01% situation, but that situation, hanging free, is what they are being sold for.

Didn't mean to insult your judgement Bowlim, for most of us that don't have the background and experience that you may have the only thing we can go by is what is recomended by experts. In my case I work underground in the mining industry, the only approved fall arrest system is a five point harness system very similar to the one I wear in a tree.

Joe, that's a very thoughtful and generous offer, I feel sick to my stomach when I read things like the heavy heart thread and also Old Crows son mishap.

Very generous offer on your part.Got to be someone out there that need it.

Den. I am not insulted at all, and do not want to give insult to anyone.

In your mining environment, if you fell, how long would it be before someone got to you, and how would they rescue you? Just curious. I am thinking here a normal course industrial complication, not a cave in. Stay safe! And thanks for getting us whatever you get from down there.

You don't have to hang that long before suffering harness hang/suspension trauma. And it is quite a serious event. Waist belts would make matters a whole lot worse, but my preference is based on the environment. I do think it would be relatively easy to make a full body harness with aspects of the best of all worlds, since I guess that is what people want. I just want something I can hang out from, and self rescue if it comes to that. I don't think some of the current harnesses are all that great at the rescue part.

That's why Dr.Wood invented the CDS(Controlled Decent System). He even states with a full body harness, that the blood will pool in your legs and can be fatal, if you can't regain your stand and are left hanging. With the CDS, you can repel down from any treestand up to 25 feet in height. Only thing I can say is, there is alot of good harness out there, but nothing I have seen that compares to the CDS.

Whatever you wear is better then nothing. It gives you time and with cell phones today and generally in one's pocket, you have time to call for help. Wear a belt,harness, CDS whatever you want but for god sake wear it.

I totally get Bowlim's points. Having been a climber almost as long as him I can't imagine a full body harness and a tie in behind me. Much easier to visually confirm you are clipped in when it is in front of you. Keeping a safety line no longer than what you absolutely need is the easiest way to avoid the dramatic hanging scenario perpetuated by harness advertisements. No climber would leave slack in his belay system and no treestand hunter should either. Myself, I use a Black Diamond "bod" harness. Easy on and easy off when nature calls.

Bowlim, just a waist belt?? That is soooo old school!! Or maybe just traditional! :-)

The CDS has the repeling rope packed inside the harness, twenty five feet worth, it has the same type of hook up as other harness. Only big difference, if you fall, and can't regain your footing or the stand, just reach up on the right shoulder strap, remove the velcro cover, pull the hand break, and lower yourself to the ground. I wouldn'n want a hook up system in the front, not for bow hunting. Besides you don't have to let more slack than needed. I don't let any slack in my system hook up either, I have it where I can sit comfortable, and also where I can lean against the rope, if needed. I wear mine under my hunting coat or jacket,with the rope attached at eye level behind me.

Dr. Wood who invented this harness is a bow hunter, an also a Medical Doctor, and he had serious fall from a treestand, and being a Dr. he can tell you how many minutes it would take for the blood to pool in your legs, any harness strap will keep your heart from pumping blood into your legs which results in suffering harness hang/suspension trauma, and death.

I'm not doubting either of your ability as climbers, but we are all human, and humans DO make mistakes.

"Bowlim, just a waist belt?? That is soooo old school!! Or maybe just traditional! :-)"

I only took a ripper on it once, but never felt a thing. I used to climb in it all the time, as well as various harnesses. Once people started hang dogging, etc... They just were never seen again, virtually. I do think the early guys who went up on huge walls with that system, and could have ended up 20 out, and 3000 up, were way better men than me.

What I like about a belt, is that you can put the tie in up front, then sweep it around back for the stand stuff, then if you fall, either just grab the tree,or roll it to the front. As I said. 99.9% of the time I don't see how you can even grab any air from a stand. It is purely that extra hand pulling you back from the edge.

The CDS system looks good, but I would wonder even how some will fair releasing that, have to look at the video. People hagging in those veritcal presentation harnesses like parachute harnesses are not super mobile. It cost 100 bucks, which is pretty expensive, but I would say it is reasonable if it delivers the goods.

With safety gear, there is a feedback loop. With great gear, there is always the overconfidence thing that can factor in. I have a lot of respect for the guys who climb into trees to hunt. It often feels sketchy to me as a climber - I don't like rock that sways! But to really fall and hang you need, a stand collapse in some kind of overhanging tree situation. Some kind of tree collapse, or a cardiac event maybe. People need to realize that a super harness even if it works still doesn't mean a pass on common sense. And if you haven't run the system, it's not for real. You have to test it to be sure you can do it. Hunting has a not terribly huge barrier to entry, so be sure that if you trust this thing it actually works for a person like you, (six year old kid to 300 pound 80 year old).

"I'm not doubting either of your ability as climbers, but we are all human, and humans DO make mistakes."

I'm like the high school football star, from 35 years ago, so doubt away!

One thing one learns from climbing, is that complex gear gets you killed. Don't trust metal (though you have to, but a spectra cable replaces a wire one). Climbing as a system is complex. But any time you can get rid of something complex and replace it with something simple, it is a good day. So knots can be better than buckles, a gee whiz thing in a bag is scary. It is a balance.

All that said, over time, complex gear eventually gets improved. It is like the compound bow 50 years down the line they are pretty bullet proof.

The harness is gone. It was a "stump full of granddaddies" type, not a CDS, or a belt, or a vest with legstraps.

It was not my intention to create an argument over the merits/shortcomings of any system.

Be safe. Thanks for the inquiries.

-Joe

Bowlim, to answer your question, I expect that if someone fell it could take anywhere from two minutes to an hour to be rescued in most underground situations,the harness does come with two straps which while suspended you're supposed to be able to slip your boots into and snug up to transfer weight from the harness pressure points to your feet. I really have no idea how effective the system is but I think I'd rather be dangling from a tree with that system than a belt. By far the worse you could do is wear nothing. Den

Maybe I preach to much on safety, first of all they are not $100.00, they are approximately $250.00. Second I suggest people watch the video. Dr, Norman Wood is a great man, and he said if his harness saved just one life, it would be well worth it. There are three sizes, depends on the weight & ht. of the person who is wearing it, secondly, $250.00 is just a drop in the bucket compared to what medical bills are these days, and what point is your life worth less than this harness.

Just wish you don't ever have to go through what I did on a cold November night, 2 years ago. Only thing I can say, is I hope you never ever fall. If you hunt very much you will know that cell phone don't get signals just anywhere.May God Bless you and watch over you.

I meant harnesses. Not belts

Well I thought I would give you all alittle update. Today was the first day for me in the woods and it was a beautiful day. I found myself all day looking at trees and thinking of my friend who fell last week. I would look at different trees and try to figure out what was 16 ft up, and thought about how one would survive a fall and if they did what would be there injuries. After thinking of that for awhile I would then start to think of him actually falling and then laying dead at the base of the tree from Saturday morning(5am) til Sunday night (5Pm)and how lonely it would have been and how sad it was, and why he didn't wear his harness. I don't think that I will ever be able to look at a tree while hunting and not think about my friend and I don't understand why any intelligent hunter wouldn't wear some sort of a harness/belt. Guys, wake up and think of your family and friends and just wear the dang things or sit on the ground. I am sure as time goes on it wil get better but I know for the rest of my hunting life, tree's will always have a new view for me. Be safe out there,and good luck this season.

Gentlemen:

Good discussion. I wish to add a few comments. This is long, but a very important message.

Back in the day, we used to climb with no safety gear. It felt stupid, but I could not find a harness or lineman's belt. I had a few scary moments and a couple minor falls which took place while installing steps, stands, or removing them.

When my son was younger, and the seat of the pants harness came onto the market - I bought one for each of us. No excuses to not use it and I wanted to set a good example for my son.

About 4 years ago, I started really thinking about how to rescue myself in different scenarios. In some situations, even with a harness, self recovery could be very difficult. So, I searched and found a new product marketed by Ameristep. It is a system for self recovery. It is very well engineered and works great. It involves a system of webbing straps that permit you to easily get back into the stand or onto a limb for safety.

That fall during the peak of the pre-rut hunting here in Ohio, I was fixated on hunting a certain special ghost of a buck. So, I went to the best stand for that day and used my safety gear - harness and self recovery system. After being in the stand for awhile, I decided to shift around. In a split second, I was hanging in my harness! It happened so fast that I couldn't even reach for a limb. The stand had a raised angle toe section and the two welds broke holding that section to the main stand. After assessing my situation, I turned around to face the tree and grabbed the tether above my head and while pulling myself up I used my feet to walk myself up the tree and back onto the remaining sturdy portion of the stand. I hunted from the remaining portion of the stand for the remainder of the afternoon.

(About an hour after the fall, the huge ghost buck finally made a mistake and came to my decoy. He was so cautious that I watched him move in for more than 20 minutes. Finally, he was broadside at 16 yards totally entranced by the decoy. I was so excited that I shot right over his back.it had taken 2.5 years of scouting and hunting to finally pattern him and get that shot.)

I could have used the self-recovery system, but what I did was just faster. Had I been tired, injured, or not strong enough, the self-recovery system would have worked great.

You may think that the tether was too long, and it was, but in that snarly tree, I still made it as short as possible.

Because of the safety gear, I had no injuries. In the fall and abrupt stop, the harness was comfortable. The harness caught me in a sitting position. Not even any discomfort to "the boys".

Upon arriving at home, I told my Wife about the incident and she was very thankful for the outcome - too much trouble to replace me - ha. She knows that I use safety gear and it reduces her concerns for a treestand fall and injury.

HOWEVER, thinking and rethinking that scenario, I was very concerned about other possible situations which might not have worked out so well.

The next summer, I found Dr. Wood's website where he demonstrated his CDS system. It is a true Controlled Descent System since it is designed to let the user to make a controlled descent from a hanging position. After studying his website text, photos, and videos, I ordered one that day. It is very high quality in design, materials, and workmanship. It is a very impressive piece of gear. It gives me a tremendous sense of safety and confidence.

I reccommend that every hunter who hunts from a treestand buy and use Dr. Woo's CDS. Yes, it expensive, but worth every penny. It is a great value for the confidence it provides, and even better than serious injury, death, huge medical bills, loss of a job, and leaving loved ones in a bad way. However, I recently heard that this products off the market. So, I looked up his website and there is no ordering information. If this CDS is available, please buy one and use it! If not, please buy the best harness and recovery system and use that!

I wish everyone a long and safe hunting career! Best wishes.

I thought this was about a give away on a harness.But it has turned in to a debate. I bet he wont try to give anything away here again.

Fisher, Dr. Wood closed his company"Mountaineer Sports, but has a new company and the Rescue One CDS will be availble. The new company will be Elevated Safety Systems, the web site is under construction now. (www.elevated safety systems.com). After my son's fall, I purchased three of these harness, one for each son and myself, I know my sons fate could have been different, but God was watching over him, even with 6 broken ribs on left side, rib factures on right, both lungs punctured, factured collar bone, fractured neck and back, he is alive and hunting today. Only scars are the tube holes on each side of his chest where they inflated his lungs and removed the fluid. Of the several hundred thousands of dollars for medicial bills, and a week in an ICU unit, he's alive by the grace of God. Those 3 harness is a piece of mind, and a drop in the bucket to the medicial bills that he had. Thats why I said, what value do you put on your life ? You owe it to yourself and your family to get somthing that could and would save your life. None of us are supermen, accident happen to even experts, it can happen in the blink of an eye, just like Fisher said. You don't realize this until something like this happens to you, a member of your family, or friends. May God bless you all.

capsmith both the harness and the information is free, just hope everyone uses both.

Old Crow. I'm glad all wored out for your son. I remember when that happened.

Thanks Babysaph, He's hunting from trees again, but not the one he fell from, and he's using the CDS I bought him. He was VERY, VERY, lucky. About 18 1/2 hours, plus the 26 F weather. I know I aged 20 years that night.

Thanks Babysaph, He's hunting from trees again, but not the one he fell from, and he's using the CDS I bought him. He was VERY, VERY, lucky. About 18 1/2 hours, plus the 26 F weather. I know I aged 20 years that night.

I bet. I can't imagine that. What a nightmare. I'm sod on the CDS. I feel safer with it on.,

"secondly, $250.00 is just a drop in the bucket compared to what medical bills are these days, and what point is your life worth less than this harness."

Well doubtless, but with stuff like this they will be along with something better soon enough. I have yet to see a high tech archery accessory that lasted more than a few years. And what about the 250 I will have to spend to work up ladders, etc... Learn a few knots, you can make yourself safe in any environment,with a little common sense.

Let's face it, there is a lot more money in making people dependant and scared than there is in solving their problems by simple means. 99.9% of all tree stand fall accidents could be solved by not drinking, and using a simple belt. But we have to make a big deal about highly improbably scenarios in order to make someone want to spend 250. So what is really going to save more lives?

I think we all know that a multi point harness and a helmet would save a lot of lives in car crashes, should we ramp up the scare mongers over that?

I've been using a belt for many years. I don't leave a long connection so if I fell, it would only be about a 6 inch fall for me. However, I can see where the harness would be an advantage, and would use one if I had it. When you get to be in your 70's, you take broken bones etc. a bit more seriously.

I too have been using a belt for many years. I keep it short but am thankful that I have not had an accident. Today my kids got me a new harness system that looks and feels great. I will use it. Thankful for so many close calls that I avoided!

I'm glad that everyone has grown tired of arguing. The harness has been gone for several days.

-Joe

I am not a tree stand hunter so I am not experienced with a lot of the equipment you are talking about.

Having read the threads about the problem of falling out and being hung up by your harness.

Why not secure your harness to a small block and tackel attached to the tree. Then with the rope tail,( long enough to lower yourself to the ground), secured to your harness.

If you fall just untie the rope and lower yourself to the ground.

That is what the CDS does

Hello, I'm not trying to scare anyone, just as long as they use common sense when they get off the ground. I use the CDS, both my sons do, Babysaph, and Wesome. It's well worth the $250.00 for your own peace of mind, when you are hunting. I hope no one ever has to use a harness or combination of straps to prevent your fall, but I hope you have one on in case you do. we are all human, in cold icy weather, a stand could slip and give away under your foot, or you could slip. We are all human, and humans make mistakes, sometime small one, that can turn out bad, or large ones, that can be advoidable. I've had some close calls in the 44 years I've climbed tree's for hunting, and some still gives me chills to think about what could have happen. Being careful is great, we all should use due care when hunting the elevated stands, but to say you wouldn't trust a mere $250.00, to save your life or to save hospitalization is a bunch of bunk. One Conservation officer made a comment, There are two kinds of people that hunt from treestand, if they hunt enough, those that have fallen or those that will. I just don't want anyone to have to go through what I did two years ago, this November. It takes a toll on you when you have your loved one on a hospital bed in ICU fighting for their life. Something I don't never want to experience again. Just don't be ignorant enough to say that can't or won't happen to me. Because we are human and it CAN happen. I'm not trying to sell these CDS harness, but of all I've seen, they are the best out there!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwcBXUNRXvw

Skip to 12 min where he lowers off. Not trying to stack the deck here, this guy is a veritable Popeye, very muscular for a climber. Does not make any case for the rest of us, but interesting. John long was on the original team to climb El Cap in a day. And he remains fit here, where he is probably 40 or 50. You will notice the lack of blood coming from the ears. You will also notice everyone else is wearing a seat harness. :)

If you have 250 bucks, let alone 750. You can equip each tree you hunt with a fixed rope, then get a grigri, and protect yourself from ground to stand to ground again. Lower off at any time, stop any time. And a waist belt is a great combo for that, but a waist harness is OK also.

Rather than depending on a black box that may or not work in all conditions, use gear that is proven the world over, is cheap and versatile. Protects you all the time. And learn how to rig stuff, take control, so you don't end up with your stand collapsing in the first place, for pete's sake. remember that tree stand was probably supposed to be safe, also. Stop taking their word for it.

If we divide the whole tree stand hunting population by those who have a CDS, it would really tell us something about tree stand safety, and what is the most realistic way to reach people.

I've heard of some individuals saying the same thing. This can't happen to me! And later on you either hear about or read about where it DID!

Maybe some people don't hunt but in fair weather, but if you hunt where it's snowing, or freezing rain, these simple things can make a rather safe treestand dangerous.

I've hunted in heavy fog, where the the moisture from the fog, settle on straps and treestand which turn to glaze ice. It can freeze on trees, your equipment, making them very dangerous. I didn't realize those couple morning how serious this could be.

I'm sure there are other hunters out there who owned the old Baker Treestands and would have love to have something like the CDS when they took a sliding ride down a tree.

I'm not saying go out and buy a CDS, I just want everyone to be safe, and you may never have to use a restraint, but you will be glad you did, when you need it.

Just had a hunter in southern West Virginia who fell 18 feet from a treestand on October 20, 2012. He was killed instantly.

Things that happens like this, makes me a believer! But I'm sure things like that can't happen to anyone else, yea right!

I think you are right, that there are a lot of people not using this stuff. But that isn't my case, I've been using this stuff for a long time, and it didn't take an accident to get me there. Eventually, if you put in the time, your number comes up.

I use a screaming eagle stand, the one they used to advertise with the picture of the car hanging from it. If I had a stand that made like a down elevator, I would put a lag bolt in the tree, and tie it off.

http://www.ferno.com.au/Portals/0/images/Rock%20Climbing/Other%20Hardware/Anchor%20Systems/CT%20Bolt%20Hanger%20Stainless%20Steel.jpg

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